OMG FIRST PLACE

dxthegreat said:

entertainment is derived from all the other aspects of an anime. Saying an anime is awesome by claiming "it's got an ok story, sound, animation, characters, but what's most important is that it is entertaining" is pure bullshit.

Sin said:

Entertainment is derived from what you enjoy. I honestly don't know anyone that wasn't hooked on Code Geass as it was airing. It was something you always wanted more of. And, when ever did I say that Code Geass had what an "ok" story, sound, animation, and characters? I'm saying it obviously had whatever was necessary in order to hook viewers like crack, and THAT'S what matters.

5layer said:
Last time I checked, anime has been invented for the purpose of entertainment, and not any other "bullshit".

Sin said:
Entertainment is derived from what you enjoy. I honestly don't know anyone that wasn't hooked on Code Geass as it was airing. It was something you always wanted more of. And, when ever did I say that Code Geass had what an "ok" story, sound, animation, and characters? I'm saying it obviously had whatever was necessary in order to hook viewers like crack, and THAT'S what matters.

dxthegreat said:



yes, anime is made for entertainment, and the means by which it entertain people is via story, character, voice acting blah blah blah. I didn't say creating an anime for the purpose of entertaining is bullshit, i said that claiming an anime is good by only saying "it's entertaining" without any other redeeming aspects is bullshit.

Ketuekigami said:

Then I'll be the first, i didnt care at all about CG during the second season. All elements have to work well together to be entertaining. Even if you say that its in the eye of the viewer, the basics of what makes it enjoyable (entertaining) while watching are the elements of story, sound, animation, and characters... And CG was clearly lacking in both story and characters dramatically by the second season which made it un-enjoyable.

dxthegreat said:
lawl, lemme repeat myself:

entertainment is derived from all the other parts of an anime. Therefore, saying it's good just because of "entertainment" as a seperate criteria is bullshit. This just means you can't pick out what you liked about the anime, or u just needed an excuse to rate the anime well.



yes, anime is made for entertainment, and the means by which it entertain people is via story, character, voice acting blah blah blah. I didn't say creating an anime for the purpose of entertaining is bullshit, i said that claiming an anime is good by only saying "it's entertaining" without any other redeeming aspects is bullshit.



Yes, but you implied that entertainment is another aspect seperate from the normal criteria of sound/animation etc with the line "It succeeds beautifully at the most important aspect of anime in general: entertainment.", and that code geass is good because of that. Saying that is pure bullshit.

Sin said:

The ONLY thing I implied was that entertainment was an "aspect" of anime, and that Code Geass succeeds beautifully at it. Entertainment is, indeed, an aspect of an anime. Just because other attributes contribute to it, does not in any way mean that it isn't a separate criterion. Many different attributes contribute to how good the story is, yet it's still an "aspect" of the anime in its own right. Code Geass is an amazing show because it entertained me more than virtually any other, and saying that Code Geass is good because it succeeded at entertaining me is far from "bullshit".

naikou said:
Huh? You think "entertainment" is the only way to judge a piece of art?

Now that's bullshit. There are plenty of aspects completely independent from entertainment that could contribute to overall rating - Such as how influential the piece was within its genre, or how original it was.

dxthegreat said:
entertainment is derived from all the other aspects of an anime.

Tachii said:
It astounds me that this has more pages than the actual movie discussion.

Tachii said:
Cuz, I get surprised easily. Another reason is that a similar topic was like this in TTGL, and in Code Geass I recall, and that was in no way longer than the end episode discussion of it. Maybe it was just the topic title, with the caps and the 'first place'. It grabs attention. I know I first clicked this because of it, lol.

Sohei said:
If only watching a piece of art in a museum could entertain me...

M_A said:

It can.

Sohei said:


You are so right. I should rate those art from a scale of 1 to 10 on how easily make me sleepy. I'll start buying those 'rated 10' arts to be put in my bedroom just so i could make myself fall asleep without using those darn sleeping pills.

Sin said:

Entertainment is a criterion in its own right, and the review system is a testament to this fact (hence entertainment being a category which affects the "overall"). Just because there are other attributes of anime that may or may not affect how entertaining you think something is, that does not entail that entertainment isn't a separate criterion. My statement is the status quo in regards to MAL, if you think otherwise give a sufficient prima facie case or stop talking.

Sin said:


Entertainment is a criterion in its own right, and the review system is a testament to this fact (hence entertainment being a category which affects the "overall"). Just because there are other attributes of anime that may or may not affect how entertaining you think something is, that does not entail that entertainment isn't a separate criterion. My statement is the status quo in regards to MAL, if you think otherwise give a sufficient prima facie case or stop talking.

naikou said:
He does have a point, though. Entertainment is often strongly influenced by the other categories, and in that sense could be seen as more of a bundle than an individual category. For example, good music definitely adds to my enjoyment, even though music is a separate category.

I won't say that I completely agree with him, though, since an anime can have low scores in almost everything and still have a high entertainment value, in my opinion. Example: Zettai Karen Children. The story is ridiculous, the characters are blatant cliches, the music is unmemorable, and the animation is just decent. But the enjoyment factor is way up there.

Ketuekigami said:

Saying that MAL does it is in no way sufficient, after all MAL has KnK marked as 7 separate movies while every other anime site has it marked as 1 OVA showing that you cant say something is automatically correct just because it is on MAL. Of course you can say you like a series because its entertaining... But entertainment isnt a lone category, its a side effect made by all other categories working together. If MAL was less oriented towards fans and more towards critiques then there would be no entry for entertainment on the review system since it doesnt tell how good a series is on a critical standpoint. In fact, Entertainment is the only part of the review that is 100% preference so saying a series is good because its entertaining is completely inaccurate since its only good to you at this point. you could say that the story or characters of a given series are good or bad but in terms of those criteria there are facts and specific ways to tell if and how a story good or if and how a character is well developed but there is absolutely no basis for entertainment except from the person thats saying its entertaining.

And we were never talking about MAL, we were talking about entertainment as a criteria for judging an anime. Which is not so bad from a fan perspective, but saying a series is good or bad solely based on entertainment is, as everyone has said, bullshit.

And if your using MAL as your only argument then i think you should, in your own words, "stop talking".

naikou said:
He does have a point, though. Entertainment is often strongly influenced by the other categories, and in that sense could be seen as more of a bundle than an individual category. For example, good music definitely adds to my enjoyment, even though music is a separate category.

I won't say that I completely agree with him, though, since an anime can have low scores in almost everything and still have a high entertainment value, in my opinion. Example: Zettai Karen Children. The story is ridiculous, the characters are blatant cliches, the music is unmemorable, and the animation is just decent. But the enjoyment factor is way up there.

Ketuekigami said:
Where you agreeing with me or Sin?

Sin said:
Of course, but other categories are also influenced by other categories. That's not a legitimate point in my perspective.

Sin said:

There isn't a single criterion that isn't made up of other crteria. How good the writing of the story is, is strongly intertwined with how the characters are developed and utilized; how good the character development is has much to do with the layout of the story, etc. Just because entertainment is often made up of more criteria than other characteristics of a show, does not mean that it in itself isn't its own separate criterion.

I say it's the status quo because that's how it is on MAL. If you think it's unnecessary then it's your responsibility to say why, NOT mine since I'm not the one attacking the current system. You misunderstand the method of argumentation; it's certainly true that just because it's MAL's system that it isn't necessarily correct, HOWEVER it's not up to the people defending the view to give YOU reasons why it should be defended, it's the other way around. So no, you have not made a legitimate case to overturn the status quo, because your own reasoning as to why entertainment isn't a separate criterion (because other characteristics of the show work together to comprise it) has been shown to be applicable to aspects of the show you already deemed as separate criteria.

5layer said:
There is something that is only contained in the Entertainment criteria and that is called Humour. Some anime survive on humour alone and therefore saying that they are good because they are entertaining is absolutely NOT bullshit as they may be completely hilarious even if everything else in them sucked.

Ketuekigami said:
Comedy is an element that contributes to entertainment but is not exclusive to it. Humor, along with intriguing story, nice sound/animation, and fun/likable/relatable characters are elements that make up entertainment but are exclusive to actual categories. If we were to review a comedy anime then its humor would be apart of its own criteria just like if we were to review a shounen anime we would put its action in its own category. those criteria wouldnt be written off as part of the "entertainment" of the anime but would be a part of the already existing elements. If it was comedy we can say that the characters and the story create the comedy depending on what series you say. One example is Inukami. It survives on its humor but that humor is only created by the combination of its ridiculousness characters and story.

And saying "an anime is good because it is entertaining is bullshit" only applies when you say that the only factor as to why it was good is that you where entertained. That is bullshit. If that is the way you think then would you say the movie parody movies (Date Movie, Epic Movie, etc.) are good just because they entertained you (if they somehow managed to do that)?

5layer said:
Lol, those movies failed miserably at entertaining me. But there are anime like Lucky Star (which I don't particularly like) that seem to survive on only comedy as there is nothing else in them. The only thing they have is entertainment.

Sin said:

There isn't a single criterion that isn't made up of other criteria. How good the writing of the story is, is strongly intertwined with how the characters are developed and utilized; how good the character development is has much to do with the layout of the story, etc. Just because entertainment is often made up of more criteria than other characteristics of a show, does not mean that it in itself isn't its own separate criterion.

dxthegreat said:




no, they are all seperate criteria. Admittedly, characters are adapted to fit into the plot, and the plot also features the interactions of the characters.
However, the personality, appearance and backgrounds of the characters can and should be considered seperately from their roles.
Their roles are considered in plot. Their development of character also belongs in the plot (whilst the kind of character they developed into belongs in the character criterion).
The point is, whatever you try to argue, you can break and seperate the various aspects of an anime into those DISTINCT criterias.

naikou said:

I didn't even see you post, heh. I was referring to dxthegreat and Sin's argument.

lol, non sequitur.

My argument: The aspect of entertainment can't be considered a standalone category because it's influenced by so many other aspects which are already counted into ratings.

Your counterargument:
1. Other aspects also influence each other.
2. Therefore: your point is invalid.

You're going to have to provide some examples for that one to even begin to make sense.

Sin said:

I already gave you concrete examples of other criteria (aka characters and story) that are affected/influenced by other supposedly separate criteria. So when you tell me to "provide examples", it begs the question: Did you even read what I said?

Ketuekigami said:

My argument was never about the criteria that comprises entertainment not being influenced by other aspects, it was about entertainment being 100% influenced by other criteria and that entertainment is 100% preference making it not applicable as a stand alone category. So before you say my point is invalid, know what my point is.

Sin said:

In the end, I view entertainment as a criterion which demonstrates how much a show hooks you to it. There's no other separate criterion that can demonstrate this, as even the "overall" score only judges how well the other criteria fit together, so I view it as a necessary part of the rating system.

Ketuekigami said:
Um no, what hooks you depends on the series. If it is a comedy then it is the characters that hook you and if not it is the story that hooks you. What hooks you always belongs to one of the existing elements. Entertainment only applies to how well you, keyword being you, enjoyed those elements, not how well they worked... making it 100% bias.

And once again, whether you are "hooked" to a series or not is all personal preference and is not accurate as a criteria since it is bias. Are you saying that a criteria that is 100% bias will be accurate when rating how good something is? im sorry, but its not.

Ketuekigami said:
Did you even read what i wrote!? How can that do anything to my argument since my argument was never about other criteria being or not being effected by other sources. Im sorry but i dont think you have any idea what im talking about... I'll quote my post just so you understand.

Sin said:

Ok you've changed your argument many times now. First you were arguing that entertainment wasn't a separate criterion, and now you're arguing that it shouldn't be a criterion because it's bias. Those are two COMPLETELY different arguments, but since you've presented a new argument I'll respond to it in turn..

Sin said:

Everything is biased, there isn't a single thing category which doesn't have bias. What sounds you like could be based on nostalgic sounds you've heard as a child, and the same with animation style.

Sin said:
What's wrong with bias? Every review has bias, but the POINT is that if many people's opinions with their bias are in agreement, it usually would consequently be a good show for most people to watch.

Sin said:
Are you kidding me? That was a response to him not you, so why are you responding to it like I was talking to you? Next time refrain from responding to responses I've made to other people or I won't give you the courtesy of responding back like I did here.

Sin said:

No, they are not. You're telling me without a story as a basis, you can judge the character development? How? How would you do such a thing? You can't see a character's development without interactions, and you can't have interactions without a story.

No, you can NOT always break the various aspects of an anime into distinct criteria because they often rely on other criteria for their basis.

Sin said:

I already gave you concrete examples of other criteria (aka characters and story) that are affected/influenced by other supposedly separate criteria. So when you tell me to "provide examples", it begs the question: Did you even read what I said?

Sin said:

There isn't a single criterion that isn't made up of other criteria.

Sin said:

First you were arguing that entertainment wasn't a separate criterion, and now you're arguing that it shouldn't be a criterion because it's bias. Those are two COMPLETELY different arguments

dxthegreat said:
Yes, i AM telling you that. It's true, without a story a character can't develop. And you can't see the character's development without interactions.
But when a character DOES interact with other characters, you can consider the personality and characteristics they displayed SEPERATELY from what they actually did.
You can, using such a consideration say that they've become more mature or stronger by the impressions they give you. You can consider these impressions seperately from their actions, even if these impressions were brought on by their actions.

dxthegreat said:
Please pardon me for butting in on the conversation between you two... but why is arguing that entertainment isn't a seperate criterion and providing the reasons why he doesn't think entertainment isn't a seperate criterion completely different arguments? I'm wondering this myself too.

dxthegreat said:
Also... as a query to what "your point" is (not trying to contribute this to my argument or anything like that). If Entertainment as a category should be including as it's the critertia which measures how much a show hooks you to it, why shouldnt criteria such as: "empathy" - how much the show relates to the viewer, "morals and value" - the various issues raised and addressed in the anime, "Intrigue" how well the anime generates thoughts and ideas within the viewer and etc etc - all these criteria be added? sure, they're based from all the other criterias of an anime - then according to you, shouldn't they be included too? Why doesn't MAL, or any other anime db review system include them as well?)

Ketuekigami said:
Saying that since people are in agreement it will make it enjoyable for most people is completely irrelevant.

Sin said:
Afterall, in the end entertainment still is a criteria of MAL reviews, so what point would there be for me to continue arguing when I already have my way?

Sin said:
LOL you don't make ANY sense. Actions ARE the story, and you just said that you receive the impressions from the actions. Thus, you receive the impressions of a character FROM the story. I could symbolize this for you and show you how it logically forms a proof that connotates this, but I grow tired. All you've proven is that once again, how you judge the characters IS BASED ON the story.

Sin said:
You obviously didn't read what I said. Arguing that entertainment shouldn't be a criterion because it's bias, and arguing that it shouldn't be a criterion because it's inextricably intertwined with other categories are two DIFFERENT arguments for why entertainment shouldn't be a criterion.

Sin said:

First you were arguing that entertainment wasn't a separate criterion, and now you're arguing that it shouldn't be a criterion because it's bias.

Sin said:
As to your first point empathy, it shouldn't be a criterion because empathy says nothing about how much you enjoyed it, and it contrasts with "entertainment" because unlike entertainment, nobody cares how it relates to you if you say nothing about how much you liked it.

Sin said:

"Morals" shouldn't be a criterion because not everyone even views morals as being important

Sin said:

And intrigue is virtually synonymous with story, as the better stories usually involve more intricate plots that generate thoughts and ideas.

Sin said:

OK, This is my last post over this topic. I feel that if you don't understand my sentiments by this point, then you probably never will. And thus, I think it's pointless for me to further waste my time discussing this topic. If you end up agreeing with me, great, if not that's fine. I don't care. We can just settle this as a difference of opinion. Either way, I simply don't care enough about this topic to continue this conversation. Afterall, in the end entertainment still is a criteria of MAL reviews, so what point would there be for me to continue arguing when I already have my way?

You can continue to discuss your criticisms over my ideas, but I created this message because I just don't want you to hold on to any hope that I'll respond back from this point onwards. Cheers!

dxthegreat said:

can you explain which other criteria animation and sound is made up of? I'm not trying to argue, i'm just wondering this.

game8910 said:
at this rate Clannad AS will become #1 >_>