| In terms of aspects like the Cures' group dynamics, the shows direction and the series composition. It feels to me as if the writers are trying to borrow too many plot threads from previous installments and aren't sure where to take this show. That's not to say this show is bad, but for a longtime Precure fan, it just feels really underwhelming in comparison. I expanded on some of my problems with DokiDoki in this blog post here: http://moe-alternative.net/?p=6540 Overall thoughts on this season, anyone? |
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| To me not having Yasuharu Takanashi on soundtrack was a big blow compared to fresh, heartcatch, suite, and smile. I miss his work on the series, and it wouldn't be an exaggeration to say its one of the main reasons I've been watching the precure seasons I did. |
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I feel like this show is trying to borrow A LOT of things from previous seasons and I'm only on episode 10 (following CureCom) I'm not sure if this is right (since I'm not caught up) but that girl we've been seeing, the blonde haired girl who says she's like the daughter or whatever of Selfishness King dude, well from looking at this photo, it seems like she's going to become a precure. Villain turns good like Fresh Precure. And the whole Makoto thing is a copycat of Cure Moonlight :I Either way I feel like this season is really lacking. It makes me giggle and laugh at times but it seems like they're tripping over their own feet as they try to mix things up. @.@ |
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| I have to say so far this season is one of the stronger ones for now. I agree with above about Regina being Cure Ace and even her bangs looks kinda similar. |
   ---------------------- I'll pierce your heart~ ---------------------- Set by viraat_pirate |
elior1 said: i think doki doki precure is a little better then smile in characters but this season pace is too much fast compare to outher seasons the cure group dynamics are fine I have to disagree with you here. I think Smile had one of the best casts out of the Precure series I've seen so far. Their dynamics, personalities, and interactions were all very fun. I like Makopi and Alice, but everyone else feels very bland personality and dynamic wise. I think it's pretty weak too. Regina is being handled poorly and I feel like removing her from my perfection in pictures list because of how terrible she's written. Plus all the freaking derps.. seriously. Oh yeah, I'm going with Cure Ace is the queen. Why? The lipstick, more mature look, and the fact that Regina has sharper eyes then Cure Ace. Plus Ace = best card in the deck. Queen = highest card. |
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ihateeveryone said: i think you will be wrong about ace is the queen because right now the queen is frozen in ice like we seen in episode 20 preview and i don't think they will be free her so fastelior1 said: i think doki doki precure is a little better then smile in characters but this season pace is too much fast compare to outher seasons the cure group dynamics are fine I have to disagree with you here. I think Smile had one of the best casts out of the Precure series I've seen so far. Their dynamics, personalities, and interactions were all very fun. I like Makopi and Alice, but everyone else feels very bland personality and dynamic wise. I think it's pretty weak too. Regina is being handled poorly and I feel like removing her from my perfection in pictures list because of how terrible she's written. Plus all the freaking derps.. seriously. Oh yeah, I'm going with Cure Ace is the queen. Why? The lipstick, more mature look, and the fact that Regina has sharper eyes then Cure Ace. Plus Ace = best card in the deck. Queen = highest card. Well she has to get set free eventually. Also, that was a good read DDK. |
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| no, because i've seen both suite and smile. THOSE were weak. |
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| Personally, i found Smile to be much weaker, i onlly watched first 15 episode and finale of it, and anime have to sucks really bad, to make me drop it, i enjoy Doki Doki so far, i like how Mana want to help everyone, to point, that people find it annoying, and even her best friend warns her, that people depend on her. |
| I have seen all of Precure series, but pretty much like all of them. This show isn't really weak but yeah I know what you about plots, for myself I didn't even believe Precure would continue long but it seem like it will never end lol. Regina has build up a character, it would be really odd all of sudden there will be a new precure so the possible is high she is the new precure. Next week we will all see who it is. |
Nothing ventured, nothing gained (Girls und Panzer der Film ) / from Nishizumi Miho |
| You didn't see Regina as transforming to Precure, because they want all be a surprise but it's still predictable with Regina scene there in preview hugging Mana. |
Nothing ventured, nothing gained (Girls und Panzer der Film ) / from Nishizumi Miho |
| It's in my bottom 3 of Precure: along with Smile and HeartCatch. Actually Smile had some redeeming qualities but felt so much like copy of Yes that I disliked it (Miyuki is no Nozomi all right). HCP has Erika and Itsuki but Tsubomi, Yuri and Potpourri drag it down nicely. In the end it has same problems as Fresh - too many plot-lines introduced that none of them are explored properly, characters are nice and might be complex but we won't see it - because we still need to discover the third Precure, bring her into the team, learn about the world and so on :P Fresh was saved in main part by Love as a leader and whole Setsuna arc - that was well played and made it worth watching. Mana started as great leader but along the lines she became, undecided? Copy of Tsubomi and Miyuki but more social... still not exactly knowing what to do (come on neither Love or Nozomi would say 'I don't know why I did it" not that their reason would make any sense but they would be have it, stick up with it and be right in the end). So first bad thing. Than there is Alice - I could write a lot about how she doesn't fit the show or rather they don't use her, just a rich girl that comes drives her team in fancy car. Great contrast here would be Karen, she's also rich, smart and so on but thanks to friendship with certain useless idiot she becomes much nicer person. They should go there with just Rikka and Mana, with later addition of Makopi. Regina sucks :P but really. Actually I liked that trio so why they decided to drop them in favor of her is beyond me - so I hope they will get rid of her :3 Because why they would introduce them in the first place. What might save this series is Princess being Precure with some mixing with Ai-chan. She was shown as easy going character, curious of world with great voice so it might shake up that boring team. And than we can have a scenario where Regina is kidnaped by her father so everyone can save her later, at least few things would be clear. And than in next season whey would give up on pleasing peripherally demographics (they will watch it either way) and give what Precure is all about: cool and strong girls, wearing frilly clothes while blowing stuff up. Just like Black and White used to do :) |
| Thank you to everyone who's shared some of their thoughts, I enjoyed reading all the different perspectives. :) Now to argue against what I disagree on DmonHiro said: no, because i've seen both suite and smile. THOSE were weak. SakuraRainbow said: Well, it's a lot better than Smile, that's for sure. Doki Doki may not have the strongest plot, but at least one actually exists. I've personally never really understood all the dislike for the more comedic seasons such as Smile and Suite. Why are people even watching Precure shows for PLOT in the first place? Anyone that has seen at least one season should realize by now that the story lines are about as generic as they get (beat up evil bad guys, save the world). As such, it's really the strong group dynamics, slice of life segments and integration of self-aware comic relief that separates a good Precure season from an average one. Sure, DokiDoki may be going full force with its plot elements, but not only are they rushed and handled poorly, they've also come at the cost of thse aforementioned core aspects. Smile and Suite may have had weaker plot segments, but this was remedied by the fact that both seasons had excellent character dynamics and plenty of hilarious scenarios. It should have been fairly obvious that these two seasons didn't take themselves completely seriously, which I wish I could say the same for DokiDoki. Half the time it feels as though this season wants to be completely silly like Smile, whereas at other moments, it's almost a life & death matter. As a result, the haphazard series composition is doing a lot more harm than good. Dalek-baka said: It's in my bottom 3 of Precure: along with Smile and HeartCatch. Actually Smile had some redeeming qualities but felt so much like copy of Yes that I disliked it (Miyuki is no Nozomi all right). I think it should have been fairly obvious by the initial five Cure set-up that Smile was meant to allude heavily to Yes. While many episodes' plotlines were similar, if not identical, this does not automatically make Smile a worse season. I'd argue that Smile's comedic tone actually benefited some of the episodes, such as the Cinderella one. On the other hand, Yes 5 definitely had better character development as it was more centered around the individual girls trying to find their goals in life. And yes, Nozomi was a much better character (in terms of both writing and personality) than Miyuki. Dalek-baka said: And than in next season whey would give up on pleasing peripherally demographics (they will watch it either way) and give what Precure is all about: cool and strong girls, wearing frilly clothes while blowing stuff up. Just like Black and White used to do :) Not sure what you mean by "peripheral demographics", as unless you have the statistics to back this claim up, we can only assume Toei is still targeting these shows to their primary audience (10 year-old girls). It may just be that more teens and adults overseas are watching Precure these days, but that does not necessarily mean they're selling themselves out to please older crowds. That being said, I have noticed that the earlier seasons seem to portray the girls in a more realistic, down to earth light, whereas the newer installments certainly have their fill of moe qualities. This could have more to do with certain industry trends though. Also, Precure hasn't exactly moved away from its roots of "cute girls beating up monsters", rather we haven't had a very action-heavy season for a while now. |
Don_Don_KunJun 16, 2013 9:21 PM
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| I have to agree with Don_Don_Kun on his view of the various PreCure shows. Dalek-baka, your weakest three: Heartcatch, Smile and DokiDoki happen to be among my list of the most enjoyable of PreCure (I won't use the word strong/weak because that is pretty much putting a veneer of objectivity on something that is very much subjective - which is how much you personally enjoy the series). I won't want to start any fierce debate, so I would just leave it here. It is good to know where we stand - at least I know I don't want to praise Smile or Heartcatch sky-high just to feel good about it, considering there are people here who actually they are one of the "weakest" PreCure around. LOL |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| Heartcatch is REALLY enjoyable and I actually need to finish it. The first two seasons of Precure will always be the best and my favorite, in my opinion. Splash Star is a very close 2nd but I haven't watched too much of it, shit I've only completed the first two seasons and almost Heartcatch. Suite,however, was very...bland. I could not get into it. I might give it another chance in the future, but it was hard for me to even watch the first couple of episodes, despite my love for music. Basically, I really like every season except Suite. Suite has to be the weakest of the Franchise and I miss the styles of the first couple seasons. They all look...so...lame now. :c |
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| The first two seasons are on another league, to be honest ;-) The freshness and the innovative way they dealt with the Mahou Shoujo genre can never be repeated in later entries. So to me it is never fair to compare them to other PreCure. I have very high opinion of them but I can also say that quite a bit of that high opinion has to do with history of the moment and the subjective feelings towards that ;-) |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| The two first seasons were way better than anything made after that. I've seen every season and movies of Precure so far. And to me Doki Doki Precure is as bad as Fresh Precure in terms of visuals, but without all the awesomeness of this show, like its plot, its character. I think this is the worst season so far. |
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Don_Don_Kun said: If you look at time-slot, types of toys, those "magical lights" during the movie - it's rather clear who is main target.Not sure what you mean by "peripheral demographics", as unless you have the statistics to back this claim up, we can only assume Toei is still targeting these shows to their primary audience (10 year-old girls). It may just be that more teens and adults overseas are watching Precure these days, but that does not necessarily mean they're selling themselves out to please older crowds. That being said, I have noticed that the earlier seasons seem to portray the girls in a more realistic, down to earth light, whereas the newer installments certainly have their fill of moe qualities. This could have more to do with certain industry trends though. Than we have things like very expensive bed sheets or models, late night screenings and hiring famous voice actors - yeah it rather shows attempts to target it towards older groups. Not bad, yet. Than we have Smile with basic setting "cute girls doing cute things" where suddenly they reminded themseleves that there is supposed to be some fight = mess. Also Yaoi clumsiness and aspirations might go for appeal towards some older fans (and she wasn't copy of Urararara as she was last person in Precure I would call timid). Now there is DDP that gives us: Precure from another world, Princess, friend that is villain, cool looking knight/weird shop owner (that can't even change into plushie, come on cool looking guys HAVE to change into one)... quite a few things borrowed from earlier seasons. It will become second Fresh. I agree that first seasons (FwPC, SS and Yes) were more realistical or I would call even simple. But that's why I love Splash Star - from start it was clear that Mai and Saki would become great friends and being Precure was just another, not the most important, aspect of their relationship. Somehing similar happens in FwPC but here it's more complicated. symbv said: Well since I'm one of those who say enjoyment = quality I don't mind debate :) and come on I do enjoy Suite/Hummy try find people who like it :P Dalek-baka, your weakest three: Heartcatch, Smile and DokiDoki happen to be among my list of the most enjoyable of PreCure (I won't use the word strong/weak because that is pretty much putting a veneer of objectivity on something that is very much subjective - which is how much you personally enjoy the series). I have very little to say about what is good in HCP but Smile had some nice points - actually it's best episode were those with turning into kids, cute animals and so on - it just wasn't as good when trying to be serious (especially the ending, that was too long and Joker was jus creepy). |
Dalek-bakaJun 17, 2013 1:04 AM
Dalek-baka said: But debating about enjoyment is just like debating which sports you enjoy more or which game you enjoy more. We can throw some criteria of strength/weakness at each other but at the end the whole experience comes down to the raw feeling of how you enjoy the series. For example, I found myself laughing a lot more in Smile compared to other PreCure, so even the story is not that impressive I enjoyed it very much. How can this be jotted down to some mechanical analysis for debate? Particularly for a series like PreCure, where the main target is never grown-up men like us, I focus more on its raw appeal and quite often those appeal may not even be what the creators intended for.Well since I'm one of those who say enjoyment = quality I don't mind debate :) and come on I do enjoy Suite/Hummy try find people who like it :P |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: I spend last week with my 2 nieces that love MLP: FiM debating over who is best/fav pony, so you can (PS. It's Rarity if someone asked).But debating about enjoyment is just like debating which sports you enjoy more or which game you enjoy more. We can throw some criteria of strength/weakness at each other but at the end the whole experience comes down to the raw feeling of how you enjoy the series. For example, I found myself laughing a lot more in Smile compared to other PreCure, so even the story is not that impressive I enjoyed it very much. Actually I dislike those meritorical debates on MAL :D It's way nicer to talk about what you like and disike about the show, what made you laugh or cry, all measurable criteria are here - you can learn more from those. But that is just me, so don't mind it. And I do agree with what you've written about Smile, it was fun while not as good in terms of plot or how they have dealt with bad guys in the end. And about first two seasons - what I liked a lot there was fact that both Black and White are so crazy strong (movie seems to suggest that each of them is as strong as Suite or Smile team combined and after rewatching series I can agree). They don't give up: always attacking and going forward no matter how many city blowing beams they will receive - little crying or going emo. With those awesome moments were Black was actually becoming angry (and even then she still was one of most intelligent fighters) or that cute "f*ck you Queen, we are doing it our way" moment at the end of MH. |
Dalek-bakaJun 17, 2013 2:18 AM
| It's difficult to imagine an heroine like Cure Black in actual season. I mean, she kills her opponents, doesn't have any magical ability by herself, often gets angry and when white isn't around she becomes some kind of madwoman. Impossible to put on this show this kind of heroine now. She'll be a villain :p |
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Arlia said: Lazy, not listening to her parents and let's not forget about fact that she is only Precure to use physical violence on her siblings or fairy :)It's difficult to imagine an heroine like Cure Black in actual season. I mean, she kills her opponents, doesn't have any magical ability by herself, often gets angry and when white isn't around she becomes some kind of madwoman. Impossible to put on this show this kind of heroine now. She'll be a villain :p |
| Yeah, I didn't mention her behavior when she's not in Precure form. She's not suitable to be an heroine anymore. But that's why she's the greatest of them. |
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Don_Don_Kun said: I've personally never really understood all the dislike for the more comedic seasons such as Smile and Suite. Why are people even watching Precure shows for PLOT in the first place? Anyone that has seen at least one season should realize by now that the story lines are about as generic as they get (beat up evil bad guys, save the world). As such, it's really the strong group dynamics, slice of life segments and integration of self-aware comic relief that separates a good Precure season from an average one. Sure, DokiDoki may be going full force with its plot elements, but not only are they rushed and handled poorly, they've also come at the cost of thse aforementioned core aspects. Well, the problem with Smile and Suite wasn't the comedy. It wast he fact that the plot didn't go anywhere, BY PRECURE STANDARDS. I didn't like Fresh much, but it at least had a beginning and an end. The plot, silly as it was, didn't completely drag on in the last quarter. Smile, on the other hand, didn't have a clue about how to end, and stuffed it's ending battle in 3 episodes, wasting good plot ideas, like the Bad End Precures. They also had no idea how to make them beat Joker, so they just had him melt. Also, Suite pulled stuff out of its ass more then most other series. So that's my problem with Suite and Smile. For the record: HeartCatch>Futari Wa>Spalsh Star>Yes!>Max Heart>Yes! GoGo>Fresh>Smile>Suite. |
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| ^ And clearly I put the value of having good laughs above the value of having a good plot LOL |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| Everything is better than stupidity on two legs that is Miyuki and Candy, the Dreadful Mascot. Sure, DokiDoki team is a little bland and Makoto wins The Biggest Disappointment Award, but then I recall Miyuki and somehow everything is wonderful again. Then again I have yet to finish any other PreCure season than HeartCatch, but my animosity towards Happy is strong nevertheless. |
Dalek-baka said: If you look at time-slot, types of toys, those "magical lights" during the movie - it's rather clear who is main target. Than we have things like very expensive bed sheets or models, late night screenings and hiring famous voice actors - yeah it rather shows attempts to target it towards older groups. Not bad, yet. Than we have Smile with basic setting "cute girls doing cute things" where suddenly they reminded themseleves that there is supposed to be some fight = mess. Also Yaoi clumsiness and aspirations might go for appeal towards some older fans (and she wasn't copy of Urararara as she was last person in Precure I would call timid). I won't doubt that there have been many attempts made to sell the franchise to an older consumer base (I mean, I own a few Precure figures), but I'm not sure you can draw all of these conclusions without the hard statistics to back them up. What you've said about hiring prominent voice actors to reel in (presumably) the otaku has existed right from the franchise's inception. For instance, Honoka was voiced by Yukana, who by that time was already a celebrity in the anime industry. That's essentially the same as more recent seasons bringing in the A-lists like Marina Inoue and Ami Koshimizu. I also wouldn't necessarily say the more recent seasons have devolved into "cute girls doing cute things" as by and large, Precure casts have always consisted of naive and silly middle-school girls. The only subjective difference may be that the more recent seasons have fallen victim to certain industry trends such as the moe fad, and as a result the character portrayals may not be as "down to earth" as in the past. Still, so long as the group dynamics are solid, I can't see this being a major setback for the franchise. Also, glorious misspelling of "Yayoi" as "Yaoi". DmonHiro said: Well, the problem with Smile and Suite wasn't the comedy. It wast he fact that the plot didn't go anywhere, BY PRECURE STANDARDS. I didn't like Fresh much, but it at least had a beginning and an end. The plot, silly as it was, didn't completely drag on in the last quarter. Smile, on the other hand, didn't have a clue about how to end, and stuffed it's ending battle in 3 episodes, wasting good plot ideas, like the Bad End Precures. They also had no idea how to make them beat Joker, so they just had him melt. Also, Suite pulled stuff out of its ass more then most other series. So that's my problem with Suite and Smile. For the record: HeartCatch>Futari Wa>Spalsh Star>Yes!>Max Heart>Yes! GoGo>Fresh>Smile>Suite. I would agree that what pulled Smile down was ultimately its finale and lack of character development. While the character episodes were decent in their own right, the episodic nature of the show coupled with the lack of any discernible character progression made these episodes inconsequential in the long run. Similarly, the finale was just poorly executed as a whole, throwing in stuff like the bad end Cures, anti-climatic fights and just an abundance of angsty melodrama out of the blue. The biggest problem with this was that Smile's foundation was built entirely on comedy, so the sudden shift to a last minute plot soiled its otherwise sweet taste. However, keep in mind that the finale still only accounted for about 4-5 episodes out of the entire 48. Unless the silly comic relief wasn't to one's liking, then I would argue that Smile succeeded at what it needed to accomplish for about 90% of its run. The cast dynamics, the villains and the sheer absurdity of the scenarios and episode variety made it a blast to watch every week. Still, it definitely had the worst finale out of the entire franchise. On the other hand, Fresh was just an underwhelming season in general due to its wasted potential. To start, I thought Fresh had some interesting ideas such as Labyrinth's world but unfortunately it fell short in terms of execution. It wasn't that I was opposed to seeing sci-fi elements or plot lines in a Precure show (in fact, I wouldn't mind seeing more of these things in future seasons), it's more just they weren't given enough of a focus to really make a significant impact. Another problem I felt Fresh had was that it had a tendency to take itself far too seriously at times, which when coupled with the weak writing of the plot line caused things to fall flat towards the end (seriously, using donuts to save the world just felt really contrived, even for a kid's show). As we probably know, Precure shows aren't exactly known for complex plot lines or deep themes, so when Fresh failed to develop these aspects beyond what the franchise is normally known for, it hindered the series more than helped it. This isn't to say the season didn't have its strong points, as there were some damn good episodes, easily on par with some of the franchise's best (from what I've seen anyway). The entire Eas/Cure Passion arc was handled really well, with her internal conflict and relationship with Love making the more dramatic scenes effective. I also felt Fresh handled the girl's power ups well in the first half by spacing them out and focusing on each one individually rather than at once. Unfortunately, the second half as a whole felt much weaker as once Setsuna was integrated into the group, a lot of the episodes either dragged on or felt completely pointless (Kaoru's past). The build up to the finale was handled well, but as I've already mentioned, the payoff wasn't as great as it could have been. Regarding Suite, I tend to feel it's comparable to Smile in the sense that it's a season more focused around the silly cast dynamics and comic relief. For pure comedy and entertaining dynamics between the characters, Suite was great. Watching Hibiki and Kanade constantly bicker, Hummy being an airhead and the Minor Trio being Team Rocket hilariously incompetent was a blast. The Fairy Tones were also a great addition as they each had their own unique charm and the episodes dedicated to their misadventures were very lovable. A lot of episodes had me outright laughing due to their absurdity, such as the one with Hibiki's test and how the girls had to beat the Negatone by answering questions. However, in terms of the fights and conflict resolution, Suite was a bit underwhelming. While a few of the fights were good and there were a ton of finishers and power ups, most of them just resulted in the girls getting beaten up, giving their speeches and then unleashing their nukes. As a result, the climax of each episode felt rather weak, especially when some of them didn't really do a good job of tying in the main message with the fight. The writing was pretty poor at times, especially when the show started taking itself seriously during its character arcs and finale. Thankfully, the tone of most of the episodes were more light-hearted and silly in nature, so I didn't mind this as much as some other audiences may have. Personally, I feel that Precure shows are more successful when they focus on their characters and humour as opposed to plot lines. This is probably why I'd rank seasons such as Suite and Smile higher on my list than some of the people here. I guess my tentative Precure seasons list (excluding Futari wa/Max Heart, Yes! GoGo since I haven't finished those seasons yet) would go something like this: Heartcatch > Splash Star >>> Suite > Smile > Yes! Precure 5 > Fresh >>> DokiDoki |
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Don_Don_Kun said: What? Again XD one day I will write her name correctly :P one day... I won't doubt that there have been many attempts made to sell the franchise to an older consumer base (I mean, I own a few Precure figures), but I'm not sure you can draw all of these conclusions without the hard statistics to back them up. What you've said about hiring prominent voice actors to reel in (presumably) the otaku has existed right from the franchise's inception. For instance, Honoka was voiced by Yukana, who by that time was already a celebrity in the anime industry. That's essentially the same as more recent seasons bringing in the A-lists like Marina Inoue and Ami Koshimizu. I also wouldn't necessarily say the more recent seasons have devolved into "cute girls doing cute things" as by and large, Precure casts have always consisted of naive and silly middle-school girls. The only subjective difference may be that the more recent seasons have fallen victim to certain industry trends such as the moe fad, and as a result the character portrayals may not be as "down to earth" as in the past. Still, so long as the group dynamics are solid, I can't see this being a major setback for the franchise. Also, glorious misspelling of "Yayoi" as "Yaoi". For first it's hard to get some statistics - there are of course Bandai financial statements but there is not much to tell on how they are divided by the group. But since tomorrow I have meeting in work I'll try to find something :) Second part... I disagree with "have always consisted of naive and silly middle-school girls". This I think is a new thing: first two generations were just ordinary girls, nothing special about them, just happened to be Precure. It was clear especially with Black - it was just a task that needed to be done (same goes for her relationship with Honoka, I love that part tbh) she went with it but all the time there were complains about what happened, what might happen and so on. Fresh and Yes also had something similar - ok both Love and Nozomi were idiot-hero type but rest of girls seemed to be rather mature (sure Rin, Urararara and Karen had their moments but when outside of Nozomi-space they acted normally). Than came HeartCatch, Suite and Smile - and here I agree with what you've wrote. Being silly and lighthearted worked in Suite (and I do love Hummy) and for most of time in Smile (it would be awesome if finale was done in other way... but it didn't :P). It might also make HeartCatch great series but Yuri arc happened. Fortunatelly rating is easy - I don't count sequels as separate series: Splash Star >> Futari wa > Yes! > Fresh >> Suite >>> (Smile/DokiDoki/HeartCatch) |
Dalek-baka said: ]What? Again XD one day I will write her name correctly :P one day... For first it's hard to get some statistics - there are of course Bandai financial statements but there is not much to tell on how they are divided by the group. But since tomorrow I have meeting in work I'll try to find something :) Second part... I disagree with "have always consisted of naive and silly middle-school girls". This I think is a new thing: first two generations were just ordinary girls, nothing special about them, just happened to be Precure. It was clear especially with Black - it was just a task that needed to be done (same goes for her relationship with Honoka, I love that part tbh) she went with it but all the time there were complains about what happened, what might happen and so on. Fresh and Yes also had something similar - ok both Love and Nozomi were idiot-hero type but rest of girls seemed to be rather mature (sure Rin, Urararara and Karen had their moments but when outside of Nozomi-space they acted normally). Than came HeartCatch, Suite and Smile - and here I agree with what you've wrote. Being silly and lighthearted worked in Suite (and I do love Hummy) and for most of time in Smile (it would be awesome if finale was done in other way... but it didn't :P). It might also make HeartCatch great series but Yuri arc happened. Fortunatelly rating is easy - I don't count sequels as separate series: Splash Star >> Futari wa > Yes! > Fresh >> Suite >>> (Smile/DokiDoki/HeartCatch) Cool. I'd be interested in seeing some number crunching regarding the different demographics. I tend to disagree with your disagreement (heh), since if you considered the girls in the first few installments to be "ordinary", then not a whole lot has really changed. Besides a few exceptions (Setsuna, Ellen, Makoto) it's still regular middle-school girls becoming superheroes and saving the world. I also don't understand how it's really a plus if a season had more characters that were "mature" or "acting normally". If it's part of the character's personality to be perpetually hyperactive such as Erika or an idiot like Nozomi, then that's no different than a character like Karen being smart and composed. I'd say the main difference comes down to whether or not these characters receive any focus or development (Yes!) or if their archetypes are just used to provide an amusing group dynamic (Smile). One route is not inherently superior to the other, provided the season's direction and writing supports the chosen path (comedy vs. serious business). Although I find the earlier seasons have a much simpler portrayal of the girls, I don't feel the later seasons have necessarily done a poor job either. Each season shows the girls coming to terms with their new responsibilities, bridging the gap between each other and finally, beating up monsters left and right. The main difference between seasons is in the execution, direction and characterization. As we can see with a season like DokiDoki, this can make all the difference. I believe you stuttered, Urararara-kun. :3 |
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| I personally really enjoyed Suite series, my favorite one remains Fresh, i hated Smile for annoying Candy, and literally no character development, character learns something? Let make her forget about it next episode, and Candy, god that brat was awful.... |
| This is almost really irrelevant but am I the only one who feels like the new openings...are pretty lame? The only recent opening I like is Heartcatch and sorta the first couple seconds of Suite. |
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| They're too much into Kawai now. That's why the opening look so lame. I'm hoping for an U-turn of the franchise to come back to its origin with character like Cure Black but it's not likely it will happen. Precure now is too much into good sentiments. Such things like anger or hatred disappeared from the Precure side since too much time. A simple example with heartcatch. When moonlight's father died, Tsubomi stopped Moonlight's attempt to express anger. In Futari wa, when Black's brother got hurt, when White got abused. Black went berserk. Precure were able to express ugly sentiments. Now they're not. When it's happens, it's only because a villain tried to do so, and they're never really going at it. That's why the characters are now pretty lame. Before, we got this kind of battle. Excuse the poor quality of the video, the interesting part is the second half : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmLiKjZ7ntY Or we got this kind of conflict : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsf_AMykUc0 It's not likely we're going to have two heroines trying to kill each other anymore. Eh, just look at one part of the final battle of Splash Star. That's something else : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3yv9SjYoHQ |
KaengelJun 17, 2013 10:44 PM
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Arlia said: Well Black was capable of raging over parfait and not being able to finish her homework - actually that scene is one of my fav in FwPC, not as epic or touching as those two mentioned but charge towards 20+ monsters over reason like this was pretty awesome. In Futari wa, when Black's brother got hurt, when White got abused. Black went berserk. Precure were able to express ugly sentiments. Now they're not. When it's happens, it's only because a villain tried to do so, and they're never really going at it. That's why the characters are now pretty lame Don_Don_Kun said: I tend to disagree with your disagreement (heh), since if you considered the girls in the first few installments to be "ordinary", then not a whole lot has really changed. Besides a few exceptions (Setsuna, Ellen, Makoto) it's still regular middle-school girls becoming superheroes and saving the world. I also don't understand how it's really a plus if a season had more characters that were "mature" or "acting normally". If it's part of the character's personality to be perpetually hyperactive such as Erika or an idiot like Nozomi, then that's no different than a character like Karen being smart and composed. I'd say the main difference comes down to whether or not these characters receive any focus or development (Yes!) or if their archetypes are just used to provide an amusing group dynamic (Smile). One route is not inherently superior to the other, provided the season's direction and writing supports the chosen path (comedy vs. serious business). Here is first thing I have found - unfortunately it's both in Japanese (I would love to read it better :D and as jpg but it gives some picture. And just how glorious first two seasons look compared to rest, also I think that DDP is lower now in overall audience score: Season where I was writing about mature/normal behavior it was Yes! and here it helped a lot with creating good series. For what we have: sport star (quite good with crafts too), idol, writer, rich/smart student council president and useless idiot. In the end we see how all of those talented people change thanks to one girl who decided to chase after a dream (there are other factors but it was repeated few times that Nozomi helped them). And I will still disagree with girls being ordinary - sure FwPC, SS and Fresh go here. HCP well we have Itsuki and her situation (actually as much as I like her that was creepy), Erika's family also fits here. Suite decided to go full scale with that weird city, seriously what kind of madman would create something like this. Smile is somewhere in the middle thanks to Beauty and in some extent Peace. In most cases it created nice mood/pacing but two had problems - Smile and DDP. Smile had those great episodes about having a secret base, robots, being plushies or turning into kids - seriously that was awesome. But for some reason they also did those episode that looked like copy from Yes! and it didn't work well (I might be biassed as I like Yes a lot). Happy wasn't a leader at all, Sunny and March went into sceptic role (this is funny about Rin - she was most down to earth girl, yet also biggest supporter to Nozomi's ideas... later Karen also started to do it). Peace was... well she was cute and that's all - she had those touching episodes with her father but for me it felt like her role is just to be cure and overly excited about everything. I'm not saying they should just copy old characters but changing episodes to make them fitting to new ones would be appreciated. Like the finale or fight with dark versions. And back to why I dislike DDP - as I wrote actually I like to be able to refer the characters, that's why I like Rikka. Makopi had great start with that determination of her but since than she lost her confidence for not much of a reason. Mana from typical pink Precure leader also went to category: "I have no idea why I'm doing it" which is still not bad - problem appears when she tries to find a reason. Doing all of that because someone smiled doesn't feel right. And to end it up with my un-favourite character: Alice. She feels to be out of the group in the first place but than we have that whole biggest company in the world thing. They need radar, satellite, tank, spaceship or time machine - everything is here XD and Sebastian knows how to use it all. Come on :P Karen was also filthy rich but I recall only one episode where she got the idea to use her money to solve some problem (and Sakamoto would take down Sebastian in seconds). So yeah that's why it's rather hard for me to relate or like those characters. |
Dalek-bakaJun 18, 2013 2:22 PM
Arlia said: One more thing that came to me right now - so sorry for double post :) but this is very good point.Precure now is too much into good sentiments. Such things like anger or hatred disappeared from the Precure side since too much time. A simple example with heartcatch. When moonlight's father died, Tsubomi stopped Moonlight's attempt to express anger. In DDP we had those issues with Alice: seriously thing that in her case was considered to be a big problem - feeling and expressing anger, was something Nagisa was doing all the time, almost like breathing XD WTF had happened with society o.O |
Dalek-baka said: Arlia said: One more thing that came to me right now - so sorry for double post :) but this is very good point.Precure now is too much into good sentiments. Such things like anger or hatred disappeared from the Precure side since too much time. A simple example with heartcatch. When moonlight's father died, Tsubomi stopped Moonlight's attempt to express anger. In DDP we had those issues with Alice: seriously thing that in her case was considered to be a big problem - feeling and expressing anger, was something Nagisa was doing all the time, almost like breathing XD WTF had happened with society o.O Yeah, Nagisa getting angry and violent was like you said, like breathing to her. That's why today if a Nagisa-like character was introduced, she might be more villain than the villain. I don't think that originally, precure was only oriented to little girls. The first three season were more a martial art contest, and its only with Yes Precure that we got some magical vibes in the character. The franchise evolution tends more and more towards a "true" magical girl show. Since Fresh Precure, it's the case each year. |
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Arlia said: Dalek-baka said: Arlia said: One more thing that came to me right now - so sorry for double post :) but this is very good point.Precure now is too much into good sentiments. Such things like anger or hatred disappeared from the Precure side since too much time. A simple example with heartcatch. When moonlight's father died, Tsubomi stopped Moonlight's attempt to express anger. In DDP we had those issues with Alice: seriously thing that in her case was considered to be a big problem - feeling and expressing anger, was something Nagisa was doing all the time, almost like breathing XD WTF had happened with society o.O Yeah, Nagisa getting angry and violent was like you said, like breathing to her. That's why today if a Nagisa-like character was introduced, she might be more villain than the villain. I don't think that originally, precure was only oriented to little girls. The first three season were more a martial art contest, and its only with Yes Precure that we got some magical vibes in the character. The franchise evolution tends more and more towards a "true" magical girl show. Since Fresh Precure, it's the case each year. I have to agree with this too since I feel like that is the main reason why Precure seems more softer by the years. Speaking of Doki Doki I feel like I am the rare ones who doesn't mind about the Regina thing since she looked ambiguous on which side she was on. |
MitsukiHimekaJun 21, 2013 9:32 AM
| ---------------------- I'll pierce your heart~ ---------------------- Set by viraat_pirate |
Arlia said: Not only to kids but I would say it was primary target group. Yeah, Nagisa getting angry and violent was like you said, like breathing to her. That's why today if a Nagisa-like character was introduced, she might be more villain than the villain. I don't think that originally, precure was only oriented to little girls. The first three season were more a martial art contest, and its only with Yes Precure that we got some magical vibes in the character. The franchise evolution tends more and more towards a "true" magical girl show. Since Fresh Precure, it's the case each year. Main characters in both Sailor Moon and Doremi are kind of similar to Nagisa - easy to anger, lazy and so on (well at least from what I've seen so far). Other diffference is that they wanted to use or were using power to save all worlds also towards their own benefit - I'm almost sure that this didn't appear in Precure, except Nozomi but in her case something that allows miracles is just doubling her own power :P Both were series aimed at kids (to what extent is different topic) so it seemed no one mind this kind of characters then or I don't know about it - on the other side in my country Yatterman and Dash! Kappei (aka midget that gets motivation from seeing white panties) were aired as cartoons for kids. so I still say that society went mad in meantime :D BTW for me Yes! was most "typical" magical girl show - Fresh tried to do some things in different way but since then it feels like they are jumping all around the scale :) with DDP that tries to be magical girl show but also something totally different and mix it with SOL/drama. Good that Precure don't go into romance, that would be a mess :D |
| Why not ? The second film of Yes got some romance mixed in and was pretty epic. And a Precure kissing someone was refreshing. |
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Arlia said: I would say that this romance was in some way one of main parts of the story - and sure it was good Why not ? The second film of Yes got some romance mixed in and was pretty epic. And a Precure kissing someone was refreshing. But except this Yes had rather simple story - on the other side DDP has already: - restoring the kingdom - friendly villan - missing princess - romance between said princess and guy in funny hat - creepy flying pink plushie - Rikka feelings towards Mana - Alice "issues" - mysterious helper (according to spoilers) so quite a few things are happening and adding romance would make it even bigger mess than it already is |
| Smile was obviously the weakest. I say that because the characters were the same from beginning to end and that ending. All that crying. But I'll give it that it had the best villains. joker anyone? |
ariamachiJun 23, 2013 7:22 PM
| How to Watch Naruto Without Filler (Complete): http://bit.ly/LncQif How to Watch Bleach Without Filler (Complete): http://bit.ly/y0UQTO |
| Joker lacked in development. He was a villain because he was a villain. Nothing more, nothing less. We knew nothing about him. Kaoru, Michiru, Eas and Kiriya were better Imo. Baldez too. |
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zansabarshadow said: Actually as I'm rewatching it and not thinking it's Precure... it gains a bit. So who knows maybe HeartCatch will end as weakest series. Smile was obviously the weakest. I say that because the characters were the same from beginning to end and that ending. All that crying. But I'll give it that it had the best villains. joker anyone? About Joker - I'm not sure about him. If Toei wanted to create bad guy who is creepy they succeeded. If he was supposed to be dark and evil, not so much. He seems a lot like Kawarino from Yes! - talking about what he will do to other villains, intimidating them and so on. But what was different is that Kawarino was really doing this, so blowing up/killing his subordinates was just another point in his time schedule - one cold bastard doing everything to reach his goal (which was also interesting to see). Best villains? Splash Star - they managed to create team of bad guys that I was really able to like (or feel sorry like in case of poor Dorodoron). And they had Kintolesky with his plan to train Precure, becoming friend of one of their parents and even having crush on one of his teammates. |
| It might be if they abandon Regina too long after the Cure Ace arc. |
| ---------------------- I'll pierce your heart~ ---------------------- Set by viraat_pirate |
Dalek-baka said: Actually as I'm rewatching it and not thinking it's Precure... it gains a bit. So who knows maybe HeartCatch will end as weakest series. Isn't that a bit of a problem though if one doesn't even treat DokiDoki as a Precure season since it feels so removed from the franchise's roots? Granted, I'm not against them trying different elements, but when the core aspects such as the Cures' school and family lives are removed (or just haphazardly thrown in for an episode to satisfy that requirement), it feels rather lacking. Also, I've been wondering about this for a while but why is Heartcatch of all seasons the weakest in your view? Dalek-baka said: Best villains? Splash Star - they managed to create team of bad guys that I was really able to like (or feel sorry like in case of poor Dorodoron). And they had Kintolesky with his plan to train Precure, becoming friend of one of their parents and even having crush on one of his teammates. This. Unlike most of the typical bad guys who were hell-bent on destruction at all costs, Kintolesky had class and honour. Most of the time, I got the feeling he was more of a coach than an enemy to Saki and Mai, as he wanted to train them up for a fair fight. A lot of his antics such as his iron-will were really amusing to watch, especially since he was almost always seen doing sit-ups or flipping through the air. It was also interesting to see how well he integrated with the human's way of life during his short time there. When the Cures finally defeated him, I could've sworn I shed a few manly tears on his behalf. ;_; RLinksoul said: That's pretty much the problem I had with all of Smile's villains. Aside from Majorina's crazy inventions the Bad End Trio basically amount to three bored people who watch TV, see something interesting and decide to go do it. They have no real drive for what makes them do what they do. I never really had a problem with the other Bad Ends in Smile (and by similar extension, the Minor Trio in Suite) since it was so obvious they were just meant to play out as self-aware Saturday morning cartoon villains. Their hysterical incompetence and ridiculous ploys were just so incredibly amusing to watch, which is more than I can say for the cliched, purely EVIL ones that are hell-bent on destruction. Since Precure shows aren't exactly known for setting up conflicts with a shade of grey, I'd rather have villains that attempt to one-up the Cures in student council elections than those that cackle in the wind while tying young damsels to railroad tracks. Of course, striking a balance between being entertaining and having good motives is the most ideal, which is why I'd rank Kintolesky as the best villain in the franchise. RLinksoul said: Unfortunately, the best term I can describe what happened with Doki is "It put all of its cards on the table at once" because come episode 8 it really feels like the show stopped trying. Power ups are handed out for free, characterization is all over the place (REGINA) and even plot details are baffling (Regina's eyes, Joe, the Royal Crystals) I might be a bit unpleasable here since the victim of the week filler was one of my biggest complaints with Heartcatch, but I kinda dislike how irrelevant the victims in Doki are. They show up just in time to be exploited for very minor selfish thoughts and that's it. The victims in Heartcatch may have stolen too much focus from the Cures but at least they meant something. If not for the theme of selfishness I would say the show doesn't need them. I also felt the victim of the week sections were Heartcatch's weakest, but the overall quality of writing, great character dynamics and fabulous style kept it from really being brought down too much. With DokiDoki, they've basically done the exact opposite and thrown in the victims at the last second...at least most of the time. There were a few episodes such as the one with the underclassman that admired Mana (forgot his name) and Alice's rival where they attempted to develop those side characters before they became victims. To me, the imbalance between going all out on side characters and not giving a damn about them made me wonder if the writers even know what direction they want to take this show. Now throw in all those unexplained occurrences (even Precure shows shouldn't be exempt from deux ex machina - unless they're clearly trying to just be as ridiculous as possible), tons of ongoing plot lines and poor characterization, and you've got a sub-par season that doesn't excel in anything and lacks charm. At this point, DokiDoki is probably the only Precure season that I truly dislike. |
Don_Don_KunJun 24, 2013 2:39 PM
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Don_Don_Kun said: I'm not sure if school part is so important - in Splash Star, HeartCatch or Smile there was a lot of those. Futari wa and Yes, along with their sequels had some of it but most of it was Nagisa/Nozomi does something awesome (that's why I love both GoGo and Max Heart). Was in the middle I think.Isn't that a bit of a problem though if one doesn't even treat DokiDoki as a Precure season since it feels so removed from the franchise's roots? Granted, I'm not against them trying different elements, but when the core aspects such as the Cures' school and family lives are removed (or just haphazardly thrown in for an episode to satisfy that requirement), it feels rather lacking. Also, I've been wondering about this for a while but why is Heartcatch of all seasons the weakest in your view? What I miss here more is feeling they are group - what I mean is: if you would remove either Alice or Rikka, maybe even Makopi could be taken out and there wouldn't be much of a difference. Heck till last episode you could do the same with Mana - something unimaginable with Fresh and heresy in case of Yes! Now for HeartCatch... oh my :) I will just write 3 points and since you saw some of Futari wa it makes it easier :) ah maybe things I love: transformation sequences are awesome, I liked some of music (not much ED but opening was fine). Fights looked great - actually they made them seem way stronger than they really are. Yet since results of confrontation don't include blown up cities it's safe to assume that first two generations wouldn't have problems in beating them :) Also Erika and Itsuki were adorable characters. 1. Relationship between Tsubomi and Erika - for me teams in Precure can be divided into two groups. First one is Splash Star, where one thing is clear: Mai and Saki would become great friends whether they would become Precure or not. Opposite is Futari wa with Nagisa and Honoka, who probably wouldn't exchange the word if not role they got. HCP feels like it belongs in the second group - but than it doesn't feel right. For most of the time is Erika club, Erika hobbies, Erika family and so on... it's not a bad thing but makes this relationship quite one-sided. Sure from time to time we have some gardening thing but it's just to find another victim of the week and it doesn't seem to progress story too much. To compare it with something, their relation feels like first 7 episodes of FwPC. Nagisa and Honoka were also put in something similar, so they started to "play friends". There wasn't too much of understanding between them, just going to fight bad guys. Its "break-up episode" I consider as one of best in franchise after showing that it was only pretending and forced them to begin again. I just don't feel something similar in HCP. I could write here sub-point about Tsubomi leadership skills... but to put it simply for most of time she didn't felt like someone who leads. Till the end I think it was that either Erika or Yuri were taking over - somehow I just like leader who can motivate their subordinates. Like Nozomi was doing, even if it was clear that everyone was more intelligent, skilled or sane than her (except her mother, who was said to be even more ditzy than she was... that is scary thing XD 2. Yuri arc - oh my again :D now biggest issue that I have with her was that "You are fighting with evil but I won't tell you what it is" attitude. Like it would be nice if she offered some help or something, but nope. Than comes moment when we are told what has happened - my first thought about it: she is dumb (or proud but those things come in set often). After this revelation it makes even less sense why she was acting so cold towards Tsubomi? But nope. She reminds me a lot of White to be honest - strong sense of duty, feeling that they are doing right thing, lack of ability to make compromises. Difference is that Honoka changes (due to pairing her with girl that probably is least fit to become magical girl that spreads love and rainbows) while Yuri from start till the end has almost same facial expression. Some development would be nice here. Actually way they express emotions here is another thing - all those speeches,fact that they suppressing negative feelings, that is something that I'm not too fond of. But that seems to be indication that world went insane and makes watching Nagisa getting annoyed more entertaining (or berserk like in case of brother not to mention what she does later). 3. Potpourri XD do I need to say more? Probably most irritating fairy around. I can understand that he is a kid, so he can act like this but it would be nice to tone this down. But nope :P fairy closest to him, Porun is also on my most irritating list... and thanks to his development in my most favorite list :D so its possible to make it work better. Especially that those other two were fine - nothing close to Hummy or Tarte but they were fine. There are some other things like: some stories about victims of the week were not as good as others (ramen-boy, that camera girl, Ban-kun - even if he was great); Itsuki backstory - seriously, as much as I like her as a character that whole dressing up as boy thing was creepy; villains that didn't leave too much of an impression - actually biggest issue was with Dune, he was supposed to be evil and cruel but he didn't felt like this, there was also that pet which helped with it. But here I would have to refresh my memory about what was happening in each episode as I was watching it some time ago and some things are bit blurry. So that's most of things why I think it's not that good - and it didn't even became that long wall of text, I hope it makes sense as I was writing it at work :D |
Dalek-bakaJun 26, 2013 9:11 AM
| To me Dokidoki feels like a "solid" entry - nothing more and nothing less. What I mean by this is that I have no real problems with it. Joe does creep me out a bit, but I think he does that for everybody. I should mention that I'm at episode 35 of the original, 45 of Smile and am caught up on Dokidoki but plan to watch all seasons at some point. Here are my thoughts so far: Original: Solid all around, except that the villains are pretty stock. I'd give it a 7. Smile: Enjoyed the humor and characters, but there's not enough of a "story arc" - it feels like every episode is devoted strictly to the monster of the week until the major fights. Also, the character development wasn't really there or was really wonky. Take episode 19 for instance (the Yayoi father one). She doesn't get scared when she prepares her finisher because she became stronger due to her father's memories...then goes right back to being scared of it the next episode. Wolfrun, Akaoni and Majorina were ok as well, since they were just pawns being used by Joker and Pierrot. I wished they would have been more threatening in the beginning though, but like I said they weren't too bad. I'd give it an 8. Dokidoki: So far this has also been a solid season, but I do think that there are some characterization issues. Mana is just waaaay too friendly for her own good, Alice just kinda exists until she's needed (I guess she doesn't go to the same school, being rich and all), and why does Regina take such a strong interest in Mana anyways? Just because Regina's not really evil? Also, it seems that there's actually TOO MUCH plot going on, in a complete reversal of Smile. I don't mean that there are too many plotlines going on at once, but (unless my memory is failing me) I don't believe that there's been a filler episode yet. Usually there would be "rest" episodes in between plot important episodes to balance things out, which is where I think Smile failed big time (even though it was enjoyable). So far it seems like a solid 7.5. Is Dokidoki really doing that bad in the ratings? |
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