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Jan 2, 2013 6:54 PM
#501
abrams said: Ineptia said: If original thinking is the only sign of one's own intelligence, I think you forget that language is an invention as well. The meaning of words are created by others but can still say something of your own. Using the intelligence of others, such as their mathematical theories, can very well mean that you understand the reference and can apply it as part of your own dialogue. To counterpoint, to understand a mathematical theory is not as hard as to create one. And yes some level of intelligence is required for both, but neither is strictly a measure of it. I would see the source of our disagreement in whether something simply requires intelligence (at any level) or whether it is a measure of it (requires a certain, above average level of it). Hence my repeated use of highly, extraordinarily. If you just say a show is intelligent than that's strictly nonsense, a show is not even sentient. So some interpretation is in order. Language is arbitrary, and it is not a sign of intelligence. Computers operate using languages of various levels. It is communication in absence of language that is the sign of intelligence. The way that you can create a language of your own, perhaps when you were abroad and didn't speak their language, perhaps using gesticulation. Even face expressions can convey anger, joy etc, and are a form of communication. It's how you use them to express complex ideas that count's, not the words themselves. Ineptia said: My point has been that a show is intelligent by showing the intelligence of the author. When you apply the titles high, mid, or low-brow, it is just being insincere. You very well mean less intelligent or more intelligent. I apologize if it came off as derisory. It was a result of my shock to your impressions. I very well mean more or less sophisticated, and that's a completely different thing. But I'd agree that it's at least as important. Still, just because a show is sophisticated doesn't automatically mean that the author is highly intelligent. He could be just average in that regard, but could posses other talents, and is certainly sophisticated himself (assuming absence of plagiarism). It's even more evident when it comes to complexity that isn't even necessarily a sign of sophistication. You want to say that you never encountered a show that had a lot of "crap" going on, a lot of subplots, new characters being introduced, a lot of things left unsaid, but that you'd nevertheless describe as unsophisticated (or dumb if you really must use that term)? And no need to apologize, let bygones be bygones. I'm sure it was just a misunderstanding. Body language. I still disagree with you on sophistication and intelligence but whatever, for the sake of everyone's sanity. I still call anime "intelligent" by this list. A solid story structure. Ideas are effectively communicated through dialogue, symbols or action. The characters leave an impression on the audience or express something that is greater than themselves. It does not doubt the intelligence of the viewer. The premise or theme remains coherent throughout the entire duration. |
“Suppose, gentlemen, that man is not stupid.” |
Jan 2, 2013 7:26 PM
#502
Ineptia said: Body language. I still disagree with you on sophistication and intelligence but whatever, for the sake of everyone's sanity. I still call anime "intelligent" by this list. A solid story structure. Ideas are effectively communicated through dialogue, symbols or action. The characters leave an impression on the audience or express something that is greater than themselves. It does not doubt the intelligence of the viewer. The premise or theme remains coherent throughout the entire duration. And a talented author of average intelligence is incapable of producing such a work? Anyway, I was simply going by the strict definition of intelligence, and yes, its not a very good word to use out of it's narrow context (which the question posed by this thread does). As it's posed, the question is meaningless. Even, interpreting the question as shows which are an indication of a higher than average intelligence of the author and/or audience, we still have a problem of it not being exactly the popular interpretation in the thread. Simply does not fit (and is farthest from) the data or reasons stated. A show being sophisticated is much more common then a show being a a proof of extraordinary intelligence, that's why I prefer to use it. But even then a lot of the mentioned shows don't fit the description. I guess popular interpretation of the question is all-together different, and judging by the shows mentioned it can be either most complicated/rich in content, most entertaining/enjoyable, or best executed/artistic. Another misunderstanding between us was the word original, which I used as in "originated by you", as opposed to derived. Not as in new, never seen before by anyone. If you reinvent the wheel, while not being aware of the wheel, then by all means it's original thinking. Despite someone, say on the other side of the world, having thought of it first. |
abramsJan 2, 2013 7:31 PM
Jan 2, 2013 7:41 PM
#503
abrams said: Ineptia said: Body language. I still disagree with you on sophistication and intelligence but whatever, for the sake of everyone's sanity. I still call anime "intelligent" by this list. A solid story structure. Ideas are effectively communicated through dialogue, symbols or action. The characters leave an impression on the audience or express something that is greater than themselves. It does not doubt the intelligence of the viewer. The premise or theme remains coherent throughout the entire duration. And a talented author of average intelligence is incapable of producing such a work? Anyway, I was simply going by the strict definition of intelligence, and yes, its not a very good word to use out of it's narrow context (which the question posed by this thread does). As it's posed, the question is meaningless. Even, interpreting the question as shows which are an indication of a higher than average intelligence of the author and/or audience, we still have a problem of it not being exactly the popular interpretation in the thread. Simply does not fit (and is farthest from) the data or reasons stated. A show being sophisticated is much more common then a show being a a proof of extraordinary intelligence, that's why I prefer to use it. But even then a lot of the mentioned shows don't fit the description. I guess popular interpretation of the question is all-together different, and judging by the shows mentioned it can be either most complicated/rich in content, most entertaining/enjoyable, or best executed/artistic. Another misunderstanding between us was the word original, which I used as in "originated by you", as opposed to derived. Not as in new, never seen before by anyone. If you reinvent the wheel, while not being aware of the wheel, then by all means it's original thinking. Despite someone, say on the other side of the world, having thought of it first. I won't contest whatever else you said, I will just answer the question. A very talented author of low intelligence would not be able to produce such a work. A somewhat talented author with average or high intelligence could produce such a work. A very talented author with high intelligence would create a masterpiece. I chose technical skills to be fair. |
“Suppose, gentlemen, that man is not stupid.” |
Jan 2, 2013 8:22 PM
#504
Ineptia said: I still call anime "intelligent" by this list. A solid story structure. Ideas are effectively communicated through dialogue, symbols or action. The characters leave an impression on the audience or express something that is greater than themselves. It does not doubt the intelligence of the viewer. The premise or theme remains coherent throughout the entire duration. You guys are talking about things of dubious relevance, but this in particular I want to address. Sorry if I'm taking this out of context in any way. First, the notion of defining intelligent anime by a checklist is absurd. Secondly, the requisites of this list are either arbitrary or do not really pertain to intelligence at all. I think the main reason for this is that anime, along with having the ability to be intelligent, is also an artistic work. Solid story structure, symbolism and consistent theme are things that really should be attributed to the artistic merit of a work rather than its intelligence. I'm certainly not saying their isn't any overlap between the two, but things like execution and authorial intelligence do not straightly filter into intelligence only. Really what I'm saying is that all these terms being thrown around are not prescriptive, but descriptive. It's honestly easier to determine what is and isn't intelligent by not getting into a discourse of semantics. |
Jan 2, 2013 8:22 PM
#505
Ineptia said: I won't contest whatever else you said, I will just answer the question. A very talented author of low intelligence would not be able to produce such a work. A somewhat talented author with average or high intelligence could produce such a work. A very talented author with high intelligence would create a masterpiece. I chose technical skills to be fair. I'm afraid that I have to insist that extraordinary intelligence is not necessary to create an artistic masterpiece. And therefore the act of creating one is not necessarily proof of such. Sure it proves they're not dumb (mentally retarded if you want to get technical) or unintelligent machines, but that's not proof of high intelligence but rather a counter-proof of the opposite (not the same thing). I'd agree with, what I think you meant, that it helps, although perhaps in art not as much as science or philosophy. And certainly more in literature than in, say, painting. As for the list, I will provide one last counter example, as blunt as it might be (try not to take it too seriously). Consider the movie Ace Ventura: Pet Detective. For what it is (a stupid or rather unsophisticated comedy) it has a solid story that is effectively communicated/well executed, doesn't offend the audience's intelligence by trying to deceive them, the premise is coherent, the character of Ace is larger than life/memorable, and it makes people laugh. And there is nothing wrong with enjoying it, well, unless that's all you ever enjoy, which might mean you're unsophisticated yourself. Still, you wouldn't go calling it a masterpiece, well, perhaps of it's sub-genre, but not proof of authors extraordinary intelligence (neither is it proof to the contrary). As enjoyable as a good argument is, I'm starting to feel (and I've stated this before), like it's ultimately pointless, as what author of the thread meant by the question was most likely one of those (mis)interpretations of the word intelligent. So when people are simply stating the shows for no other reason that they found them entertaining or complicated, they might just be giving him what he wanted. And that would make our discussion, unintentional trolling I'm afraid. |
Jan 3, 2013 12:14 AM
#507
abrams said: Sometimes, no intelligence is required at all, as would be the case of Watson winning Jeopardy. What is worse about symbolism is that it is always a simplification (of what it actually means), and as such easy to understand (given the knowledge ofc)and innately appealing to us humans. It is to our detriment when simpleminded people start thinking in terms of symbols for convenience sake. I can see what you mean in the day and age of being buried in by consumerism and the marketing that drives it. In that respect symbolism is such a tool to advertise a product or service in a simple recognition. However, you made a point rather later in your post that if the explanation was "more or less handed to you" then you would lack the thought that you would otherwise needed to do. This is true in many aspects, the thought in philosophy (as you mentioned) , symbolism, and acronyms to name a few. The bare use in symbolism does not prove intelligence, you gestured that such would be trivia, and it would be. It stands apparent at what use of symbolism leaves little value to it's significance when those in a professional or knowledge standing look at its context. Related, but not the same, in the overuse of acronyms in Sci-Fi, Mecha, and cyberpunk series. How they will attempt to constrain the existence of organization to put together a background of a developed world. It reminds me of the embellished titles in RolePlay, and the simple recognition of characters to words. As much as these arguments fight against symbolism as a defining trait of intelligence in an anime series. The characteristic of intelligence was not so much pattern recognition, but the lure to see through the bottleneck and rouse contemplation towards a stepping stone of greater thought. An icon of a white cup with brown liquid with white curves floating above the top, could just been seen as hot coffee. Or rouse the products of education of a computer language that you had developed, bringing about memory of each line of code that you spent debugging. Symbols help to provoke intelligence that exists, though they, like many other literary devices and tools, cannot stand on their own to call a series "intelligent". abrams said: It is necessary to make a clear distinction between a well constructed and smart, or entertaining for that matter. Skillful storytelling and complexity have more to do with artistic talent and knowledge, and are not sings of authors extraordinary intelligence. If the show was witty then perhaps, but witty =/= funny (and we'd probably have an argument about that instead). And besides wit has to be spontaneous and original to be a sign of intelligence. I think people, and myself are trying to look upon these story telling assets as a means of discrimination. Symbolism, moonlighting, language, story structure, and theme don't always "make" but to see it lacking known sections will "break" confidence in a series. To have any of these respectively or not; does not give way to a defining trait to say "it is an intelligent series". As it's been said in the thread a checklist of "does it have this"is not enough. Absurd i believe the way it was said. I'll refer back to my example of Potemkin and yours in Ace Ventura. In the way that measures of intelligence are not static, and there are different metrics in analyzing media. By those that produced it, those that developed it, the effect on the viewer, it's effect on the economic market, the structure of the writing, and artistic talent in terms of where intelligence can be analyzed how it stands on it's own, and how it stands with the Anime Series (or other media). abrams said: Language is arbitrary, and it is not a sign of intelligence. Computers operate using languages of various levels. It is communication in absence of language that is the sign of intelligence. The way that you can create a language of your own, perhaps when you were abroad and didn't speak their language, perhaps using gesticulation. Even face expressions can convey anger, joy etc, and are a form of communication. It's how you use them to express complex ideas that count's, not the words themselves. Going to have to pull on the reigns here. There is a range of meaning that cannot be conveyed in a limited language, there are simply not words to express it. You see this in translations from one language to another that hinders it's meaning. I'll refer to the rewritten language in 1984, and the Elvish language in the lord of the rings. Yes, throwing around words where they lack meaning of complex ideas does not mean a sign of intelligence, but to use only a small section a language, a lacking language, or a bastardized form of a language it won't matter how far you can go. You can only run so far as there is ground to run on. abrams said: As enjoyable as a good argument is, I'm starting to feel (and I've stated this before), like it's ultimately pointless, as what author of the thread meant by the question was most likely one of those (mis)interpretations of the word intelligent. So when people are simply stating the shows for no other reason that they found them entertaining or complicated, they might just be giving him what he wanted. And that would make our discussion, unintentional trolling I'm afraid. I've been enjoying this as well, though i can't stand by some of the arguments and points here, it certainly is a much better discussion than the forum topics i've been actively participating in (the above users THIS, the above users THAT). However to say that an argument is ultimately pointless because it does not refer back to the OP in the matter that it was desired... is disappointing. The OP isn't exactly the holy grail to refer on how to lead the discussion. The Original Post and it's poster could easily be as biased, opinionated, incorrect in its facts, etc (not referring to this OP, but in general). What I mean to say is that even if the OP could be flawed in someway, i wouldn't want to abandon this discussion to have an undisputed pool of titles to tag "Intelligent Anime" in some tag cloud to use in Netflix, XBMC, or other management of media. |
Jan 3, 2013 12:21 AM
#508
Someone say Death Note, quick! |
“Suppose, gentlemen, that man is not stupid.” |
Jan 3, 2013 12:46 AM
#510
Ineptia said: Someone say Death Note, quick! It's been said enough, but that doesn't mean we can't have fun. Sailor Moon, cause you know, their powers are connected to planets, and junk. And that's astronomy, astrology, whatever. It's also very symbolic and stuff, like mythology, you know.Also, it was one of the first anime in anime invasion in the west, a real original, mhm. And they fight evil, so it's about good and evil, that's deep, mhm. It was also wicked funny, so, like, it got you thinking too. It had a good plot and kept you guessing what's next at the end, mhm. That's why it's the bestest and intelligentest anime ever. Kisu, kisu. |
abramsJan 3, 2013 12:53 AM
Jan 3, 2013 1:02 AM
#511
Out of curiosity has anyone posting in this thread seen Gallery Fake? |
Jan 3, 2013 1:05 AM
#512
renders said: Out of curiosity has anyone posting in this thread seen Gallery Fake? I've never gotten around to it. Is it good? |
“Suppose, gentlemen, that man is not stupid.” |
Jan 3, 2013 1:06 AM
#513
Ineptia said: renders said: Out of curiosity has anyone posting in this thread seen Gallery Fake? I've never gotten around to it. Is it good? I've seen it a long time ago but it is good and it has potential to be considered a intelligent anime,the mc is badass,the soundtrack was jazz similar to bebop,at there's a lot of art and history involved |
rendersJan 3, 2013 1:59 AM
Jan 5, 2013 2:44 PM
#515
Em... Detective Conan? |
Jan 5, 2013 2:45 PM
#516
My vote goes to either Monster or Serial Experiments Lain |
Jan 5, 2013 4:00 PM
#518
Andomarn said: Em... Detective Conan? THIS!!! Well, in the beginning at least. |
"Justice Never Dies!" - Kenji Endou, 20th century Boys |
Jan 5, 2013 4:22 PM
#519
GodlyKyon said: Andomarn said: Em... Detective Conan? THIS!!! Well, in the beginning at least. Yeah, although the crimes and tricks are always new I think the "endings" are pretty repetitive. |
Jan 5, 2013 4:33 PM
#520
Right now I feel as if Zetsuen No Tempest is up there, because it has a pretty in depth plot based on The Tempest and Hamlet; both very intelligent works by William Shakespeare. |
MixieMoonJan 5, 2013 4:43 PM
Jan 5, 2013 4:49 PM
#522
Thought provoking anime makes me unstable... But I still watch them anyway ._. ... Anyways, I'll have to say Serial Experiments Lain, Chaos;head, Paranoia Agent, The last few episodes of Gurren Lagann (infinite universes etc), and NGE. |
Jan 5, 2013 4:58 PM
#523
Monster Steins;Gate Avatar: The Last Airbender Detective Conan Death Note (1st half had some brilliant moments) |
SunInSplendorJan 5, 2013 5:37 PM
Jan 12, 2013 2:40 PM
#524
Combustious said: Perhaps Detective Conan. Think about it, the creator has to create a new case every few episodes and the mysteries aren't normal or obvious(unless it's supposed to be that way) Naruto could actually be more intelligent. The mystery of "who is Tobi?' was the most discussed identity ever... |
Jan 12, 2013 2:49 PM
#525
Pandarenboy said: Combustious said: Perhaps Detective Conan. Think about it, the creator has to create a new case every few episodes and the mysteries aren't normal or obvious(unless it's supposed to be that way) Naruto could actually be more intelligent. The mystery of "who is Tobi?' was the most discussed identity ever... I think he means that the writer of conan had put a lot of effort into making all those mysteries that are apparently set up in a clever way. The tobi-mystery, on the other hand, is just one mystery regardless of how big it is |
Jan 12, 2013 4:05 PM
#526
Sort of surprises me that every single post in this isn't LotGH. So, erm... LotGH. It is perhaps the most profound take on the natures of history, mankind, and war, that fiction has ever offered. |
Jan 12, 2013 6:27 PM
#527
Lindle said: Sort of surprises me that every single post in this isn't LotGH. So, erm... LotGH. It is perhaps the most profound take on the natures of history, mankind, and war, that fiction has ever offered. Older art stlye doesn't appeal to me much unless I've already watched and completed the series. I don't know it just makes me feel weird. |
Jan 12, 2013 9:14 PM
#528
Ahri said: Understandable. Even for it's age the art in LotGH just isn't very good, although it's not bad by the second half, especially with the occasional art bumps.Lindle said: Sort of surprises me that every single post in this isn't LotGH. So, erm... LotGH. It is perhaps the most profound take on the natures of history, mankind, and war, that fiction has ever offered. Older art stlye doesn't appeal to me much unless I've already watched and completed the series. I don't know it just makes me feel weird. |
Jan 12, 2013 9:19 PM
#530
At the well aware risk of sounding like a broken record, Neon Genesis Evangelion. |
Jan 12, 2013 9:21 PM
#531
Jan 12, 2013 10:40 PM
#533
FastWheels said: Legend of The Galactic Heroes. pizz off probably anything with well explain technology (neon genesis for example) |
Jan 12, 2013 10:46 PM
#534
rkell48 said: FastWheels said: Legend of The Galactic Heroes. pizz off Why so? |
Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
Jan 13, 2013 8:15 PM
#535
BloodRequiem said: Thought provoking does not mean intelligent. ^this. In terms of intelligent by actually literally teaching me, I'm getting quite the psych lesson from kuuchuu buranko. |
Jan 13, 2013 8:17 PM
#536
rkell48 said: FastWheels said: Legend of The Galactic Heroes. pizz off Says the guy WHO HASN'T FUCKING SEEN IT. |
Jan 13, 2013 8:50 PM
#537
Steins;Gate so far. |
Alone on a Friday night? Remember that DIO did nothing wrong! |
Jan 13, 2013 11:16 PM
#538
hmm, i havent watch many mysteries so.. Death Note Steins;Gate |
Jan 14, 2013 12:14 AM
#539
Death Note Steins;Gate Fullmetal Alchemist / FMA:Brotherhood Ghost in the Shell Code Geass |
Jan 15, 2013 7:27 PM
#540
Yojouhan Shinwa Taikei (aka The Tatami Galaxy): The story is well-conceived and the monologue/dialogue is well-written. It's based on a novel that was written by a person who graduated from Kyoto Univ., one of top universities of Japan (like Cambridge or Stanford). No wonder the anime is full of intelligence. |
Jan 18, 2013 12:53 AM
#541
Probably Death Note And Code Geass |
Jan 18, 2013 1:30 AM
#542
For me it's Akira. Though the ending is still a confusion but I think it must have deeper meaning behind it. |
Feb 4, 2013 7:55 PM
#545
The most intelligent anime that was never made: 20th century boys |
"Justice Never Dies!" - Kenji Endou, 20th century Boys |
Feb 4, 2013 8:57 PM
#546
shinsekai yori... even if it's still airing i'm GODsmacked (for the people who are also watching it "see what i did there" haha) and to think people dropped this due to 2 boy's kissing -_- realy that must be the worst thing ever! |
Feb 4, 2013 9:39 PM
#547
School Days. The MC is an intelligent cunt, screws all the bitches he wants then ditch when he prego them. Nah jokes. Steins; Gate |
Feb 4, 2013 9:51 PM
#548
Neon Genesis: Evangelion...huh...or maybe Yu-Gi-Oh...tough choices indeed. |
Feb 4, 2013 10:59 PM
#549
Now that I think about it, Hunter x Hunter, for the creativity in how some of the fights are won and for the simple yet highly interesting setup of things like the Hunter Exam and Greed Island. |
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