PandoraHearts
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Neiru2012 said: Talu said: Lotti said once that Alyss is after Jack who's inside Oz, but the recent chapters tell otherwise... O_o Pretty sure Alyss is still after Jack. She made that clear in the beginning. What in the recent chapters makes you think otherwise? I wasn't clear enough. X_x Alyss said she wants to save Alice, that's what she told Break. But maybe if Jack is really the "evil mind~~" behind the tragedy, so maybe she is still after him still @_@ It makes sense. but the thing with Oz's father makes me more confused now Oo Sorry if I sound stupid of something... >_> EDIT Oh wait, Alyss is after Jack because he actually caused the tragedy, and because he "lives" through Oz, Zai (was that his name?) threw him into the abyss? O_o That's the sin Zai was talking about, that he was born? X__X That makes sense somehow. |
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| I disagree, but anything is possible at this point... :D EDIT @ EDIT: at this point I think there was a whole clusterfuck of many people's motives that collided to cause the Tragedy, but if there was any central orchestrating factor, I'd bet on either (one of the) Alice(s) or Lacie. For now I still think that Oz's "sin" is Alyss being obsessed with Jack and, Oz being his container, Alyss keeps twisting the world to get at him. |
Neiru2013Sep 24, 2011 6:28 AM
| "Oh My Gawd, I need to reread this manga." ^was my very first honest reaction upon finishing this chapter |
| lol, its pretty common to make a good guy turn out to be a bad guy. BUT I DID NOT SEE THAT COMING!!! Seriously, I never even thought that the memories might be fake or anything. It never occured to me at alllllll! There weren't really any hints or anything, usually there is something leading up to the fact and you are just waiting for it to come out in the open for the characters, but this was very sudden (in a good way though). If Jack really is the bad guy then I will be pis*ed of at him whenever I reread the manga after all that lying his done lol. Can't wait for the next chapter! And 70 pages FTW :) |
cloud8100Sep 24, 2011 8:40 AM
| Im still heart broken for days after finding out about Jack, but u know something? He was always my fav, i shall not turn my back on him even if he is the evil one. Not until i have a decent explanation of WTF is going on. Will of the Abyss (Alyss) is certainly connected to Jack more than anyone else because she only shows two types of reaction with him: - Deep hate. or - Deep love. so there might be a chance that she is somehow...LACIE. and i guess that Lacie has a big chance of being related to Glen, not in a romantic way, but perhaps on a sibling way... (anyone noticed Glen has precisely the same eye color than Alyss? and that might not be a coincidence. not in Mochizuki´s work, lol). And in the calendar of PH, there is a pic of Lacie dead, with her eyes closed, but she greatly resembles Alyss. and god, no matter what people say, its just plain weird to see Lacie on a summer dress, apparently barefoot, on a dirty alley, on a SNOWING day!!! (she was definitely not a common human, otherwise she wouldn't have been chosen to be the sacrifice to the Abyss). Just to see Jack so poor and miserable when he was a kid, my heart trembled. He must have been through many pain, so maybe, that justifies some of his actions... not saying he is right ofc. I hope i can see some kindness inside Jack remaining, and i truly hope he doesn't become a full villain with no feelings. At least one thing is clear now: he really really LOVES Lacie. As for Leo...gawd, i hope he is not dead. And Gil...he is a Baskerville, so he wont die easily for sure XD Kinda cute that Glen was Gil´s master. Now, i do believe Jack was Vincent´s master only. Mochizuki loves trolling. as someone in mangafox noticed,long before she wrote this chapter, in fact she gave us a huge hint in the PH calendar with Lacie, Jack & Glen pic: |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
Orulyon said: Im still heart broken for days after finding out about Jack, but u know something? He was always my fav, i shall not turn my back on him even if he is the evil one. Not until i have a decent explanation of WTF is going on. Will of the Abyss (Alyss) is certainly connected to Jack more than anyone else because she only shows two types of reaction with him: - Deep hate. or - Deep love. so there might be a chance that she is somehow...LACIE. and i guess that Lacie has a big chance of being related to Glen, not in a romantic way, but perhaps on a sibling way... (anyone noticed Glen has precisely the same eye color than Alyss? and that might not be a coincidence. not in Mochizuki´s work, lol). And in the calendar of PH, there is a pic of Lacie dead, with her eyes closed, but she greatly resembles Alyss. and god, no matter what people say, its just plain weird to see Lacie on a summer dress, apparently barefoot, on a dirty alley, on a SNOWING day!!! (she was definitely not a common human, otherwise she wouldn't have been chosen to be the sacrifice to the Abyss). Lol i completely agree i was thinking the same about Alyss being in fact Lacie but my thoughts go on like this: Maybe Lacie became Alice after being sacrificed to the Abyss developing split personality or something like that i have no idea (this cannot explain how Alice can have bodies in both worlds but lets go for it anyway) cause otherwise how can she forget about Jack and Glen not to mention the change of the name i higly doubt Lacie is the twins mother i mean she was pretty young and who is the father (it might be possible still i mean Mangaka-san here is a troll) i dont think it could be Jack or Glen they dont look old enough to be fathers after Lacie is gone and they "meet" Alice. Maybe Glen/Jack tried to return Lacie back from the Abyss but couldn't completely do so and as a result part of Lacie stayed in the Abyss Alyss is one pretty instable fellow if you ask me (not that she isnt a badass character) Sigh but still...if they are just twins borned from a human womb...why do they look like Lacie...reincarnation?But then how old were Glen and Jack when Lacie was killed for Alice and Alyss to be 16 and them looking like they are in their mid 20? I cannot assume Jack is the antagonist just yet cause in the flashback when Vincent met Alyss he told her that Jack is dead because of her because he wanted to save her...maybe he does maybe he wants to get Lacie back (even if my thoughts are horribly wrong Will have the power to change the past...or maybe he just liked her) But on the picture in the calendar it may not be Lacie at all (making mah post meaningless) since the eyelashes of the girl are white and up till now only Alyss had white eyelashes.Than she might be Lacie and this is a way that Mochizuki-sensei is giving us a hint...does that mean that Lacie had a twin if she is only Alyss -really really really confused... and this is why i love this manga) |
DeadlyStarfishSep 24, 2011 12:52 PM
| I found this page ................................................... that is exactly like the last few pages of this chapter but in this flashback where Oz is present ITS GLEN saying the words not JACK v.v |
DreamtimeSep 24, 2011 1:01 PM
| I don't think we can assume that it's Glen saying that. It is somebody's narration, and the last person talking before that was Jack. That scene is technically happening when Oz sees Glen at Sablier. The only thing we know for sure that Glen is saying is "No, you are not Jack" and then going on a tangent about Oz, so I don't think reading the background narration as Jack's thoughts inside of Oz contradicts anything. There's at least two more instances where this kind of interspersed text happens around Jack and Glen. One is here. It is Glen saying "Jack... I... don't want---!!" (you can tell because Baskervilles have a double border around their speech bubbles), but who is thinking "I don't want to kill you--!!" is unclear. Maybe both of them are. Then you have this scene (and a few pages before it, too), but who is narrating? It could be either Glen or Jack, however, considering this flashback seems to be happening to Elliot, and the visual perspective it's shown through, it could be Humpty's flashback. Humpty was tied to Celia, another Lacie anagram. |
DeadlyStarfish said: But on the picture in the calendar it may not be Lacie at all (making mah post meaningless) since the eyelashes of the girl are white and up till now only Alyss had white eyelashes.Than she might be Lacie and this is a way that Mochizuki-sensei is giving us a hint...does that mean that Lacie had a twin if she is only Alyss -really really really confused... and this is why i love this manga) I believe it is Lacie, because, Alyss has braids, and that girl in the pic not only she doesnt have braids, as she really looks like she is dead. She is totally white, in a dead pose, like if she is deeply asleep or dead. We cant deny the possibility that Lacie is still alive, otherwise Jack wouldnt try so hard to get full power and erase his enemies, since the only thing that matters to him is Lacie. He seemed happy in this chapter. That probably means somehow, Lacie is still alive. she might be asleep...or she might be inside Alyss.... other thing i would like to point out about Jack , is that: i dont intend to defend Jack because he is my fav character. im also a bit hurt with him. But i do truly believe, he is not the only villain there. i have to say, Mochizuki is really a troll, but the truth is, she gave us several hints of this "new" Jack long time ago. Specially through this pic: |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
Orulyon said: DeadlyStarfish said: But on the picture in the calendar it may not be Lacie at all (making mah post meaningless) since the eyelashes of the girl are white and up till now only Alyss had white eyelashes.Than she might be Lacie and this is a way that Mochizuki-sensei is giving us a hint...does that mean that Lacie had a twin if she is only Alyss -really really really confused... and this is why i love this manga) I believe it is Lacie, because, Alyss has braids, and that girl in the pic not only she doesnt have braids, as she really looks like she is dead. She is totally white, in a dead pose, like if she is deeply asleep or dead. We cant deny the possibility that Lacie is still alive, otherwise Jack wouldnt try so hard to get full power and erase his enemies, since the only thing that matters to him is Lacie. He seemed happy in this chapter. That probably means somehow, Lacie is still alive. she might be asleep...or she might be inside Alyss.... other thing i would like to point out about Jack , is that: i dont intend to defend Jack because he is my fav character. im also a bit hurt with him. But i do truly believe, he is not the only villain there. i have to say, Mochizuki is really a troll, but the truth is, she gave us several hints of this "new" Jack long time ago. Specially through this pic: Yes i too have noticed the ring and the black/white clothing however there is not enough shown of Alyss/Lacies hair in the picture she may still have braids. Jack is my favourite in the series as well soo i do hope that his actions are somehow justified.I dont understand why people are getting so grumpy about him killing Leo he is still alive <.< All i can guess from those pictures is that the hands that are reaching for Oz are not females cause the one that Jack is holding looks way more graceful. On the first picture Oz is wearing the same clothes but this time they are darker could this be again Jack?...and those music sheets are everywhere (i guess they have something to do with Lacie) I have another question about this chapter who is the reincarnation of Glen?Leo could hear the voices but Jack stated when stabbing Gill that he will not die of something like that why cause he is the future body for Glen?...i am sooo getting confused here |
DeadlyStarfish said: I have another question about this chapter who is the reincarnation of Glen?Leo could hear the voices but Jack stated when stabbing Gill that he will not die of something like that why cause he is the future body for Glen?...i am sooo getting confused here i believe its Leo that is Glen´s reincarnation. i think Jack meant to say that Gil wouldnt die of something like that because he was giving a hint that Gil is a Baskerville, and Baskervilles usually have a huge resistance and regenerate fast (and Gil´s master was Glen, so it makes sense that Gil is also a Baskerville). |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| I really hate to accuse Glen of something like this - and I'm really not, it's just a hypothesis - but it's possible that Glen might've used Lacie to gain control over the Will. That was his expressed intention all along, after all. By sacrificing a pregnant Lacie to the Abyss, and having her give birth to a child/twins infused with the Will, he could have then retrieved Alice (one to take with him, and one to stay in the Abyss to keep the connection) and kept her locked away in that tower. That is, until it came time to finalize this process and claim control of the Abyss from Alice for himself, perhaps by sacrificing her too. Finding out something like this would horrify Jack, I think. Hence "...you want to use Alice??" Maybe finding out that Alice had developed a will of her own, or that Jack was planning to elope with her, could explain why Glen(?) decided to rush the procedure by ordering the massacre of Sablier to incapacitate Alyss (she was hurt by it). |
Neiru2013Sep 24, 2011 4:28 PM
| I totally LOVE Pandora hearts!!!! XD This chapter just blew my mind away! I'm still in shock and my brain is in pieces.... Still trying to pick it up after contemplating again and again on what is happening with this manga! Gaaaahhh! I'm really going to reread this manga again and again.. What a mind-blogging chapter! Love it that it's 70 pages! Jun-sensei, you're the best! XD |
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Neiru2012 said: I really hate to accuse Glen of something like this - and I'm really not, it's just a hypothesis - but it's possible that Glen might've used Lacie to gain control over the Will. That was his expressed intention all along, after all. By sacrificing a pregnant Lacie to the Abyss, and having her give birth to a child/twins infused with the Will, he could have then retrieved Alice (one to take with him, and one to stay in the Abyss to keep the connection) and kept her locked away in that tower. That is, until it came time to finalize this process and claim control of the Abyss from Alice for himself, perhaps by sacrificing her too. Finding out something like this would horrify Jack, I think. Hence "...you want to use Alice??" Maybe finding out that Alice had developed a will of her own, or that Jack was planning to elope with her, could explain why Glen(?) decided to rush the procedure by ordering the massacre of Sablier to incapacitate Alyss (she was hurt by it). if that is correct then first to mind comes the question of who the father is and second - it is shown in this chapter that Jack has an obsession with Lacie he would never have forgiven Glen for doing something like that and would have killed him sooner.Btw i was thinking what was Jack's chain during the Tragedy of Sablier after all Glen had a chain and for Jack to even try to kill him i guess he should have had a chain atleast. |
| Well, I think Jack was genuinely best friends with Glen. So, if my theory is true, then there must be some reason that Jack could've accepted it, such as maybe Lacie agreeing to it on her own, or Jack not knowing Glen's involvement in exactly how/why things happened. And yes, I actually think Jack contracted with Black Rabbit. He talked about Black Rabbit 100 years ago. Jack seems to be very connected to the Black Rabbit chain, and well versed in how to control it. It's during Oz's B-Rabbit high that Jack most frequently comes through and dominates. I'd think that Oz's homicidal tendencies in that state is Jack's influence. Pretty sure this is Jack's influence talking, since he shortly thereafter comes through to kill Yura. And Oz remembers this from Sablier too (is that Glen's sleeve in the bottom middle-right?), as does Alice. This happened back in Cheshire's dimension (here + 2 pages), too, where memories of Sablier triggered Oz to go on a destructive rampage, even to the point of being willing to destroy Alice herself if it would make her happy - I think that could be Jack's influence, too. And here + 2 pages is another one of Jack's homicidal B-Rabbit escapades. Jack appears to be very destructive under B-Rabbit, and gets carried away or lost in its power. The movement of Oz's B-Rabbit seal in the Cheshire dimension, the influx of Alice's memories he saw, and his craziness that followed was triggered by seeing Alice dead. Maybe Jack reacted similarly upon finding Alice dead (assuming he didn't kill her during a B-Rabbit high because she feared herself the most). Maybe when Alice died, she went to the Abyss, turned into Black Rabbit, and came to contract with Jack on the spot. But there's many problems with this theory, such as Alice being very mad at Jack for something (maybe even for failing to protect her, or for killing her), and pictures of Alice with Black Rabbit locked in a birdcage. (more on that here) |
Neiru2013Sep 24, 2011 11:59 PM
| i was thinking when Alice died Jack in order not to lose her bound her soul to the powers of b-rabbit thus removing all her memories.Also i wanted to ask if int that flashback of Gil durring the ceremony when he was going to become Glens next host wasnt it said that raven is needed. |
| But Alice tore up her own memories. Yes, I think Glen did try to transfer Raven to Gil 100 years ago. When Gil finally managed to contract Raven, Raven pointed out that Gil has tried to do this twice before and failed. The "second time" picture in the previous link refers to this scene, when Gil first joined the Nightrays and Vince showed him the Abyss gate. The "third time" was the present when Gil finally managed to contract Raven. So when was the "first time"? Gil didn't have access to Raven prior to joining the Nightrays except 100 years ago with Glen. I think the "first time" refers to Glen trying to transfer Raven to Gil, and maybe Vincent interrupting that. |
| So atleast we now know Glen cannot get the body of Leo becuase he needs all 5 chains to be in the host in order for his soul to take the body. About Alice i came to that idea becuase she can transform into b-rabbit then turn back to Alice as i havent seen another chain do that. and i cannot really understand this page is jack dead here or is that a smile on his face v.v Edit: This Page Break got me curious actually |
DreamtimeSep 25, 2011 1:02 AM
| I'm not sure if Glen needs to transfer all 5 of his chains to get Leo's body. I think he only needs to transfer chains if he wants to take over another person's body, but Leo is a direct reincarnation the old fashioned way. It was a "Glen" from birth. Leo's always had the other "Glen"s around him. Glen also essentially said that the new vessel retains its own personality, and the previous "Glens" remain in the background, just as we've seen with Leo. So maybe Alice and Miranda were lying that Gil would be subsumed? O.o Bah, hopefully will figure this out as I re-read. Yeah, Alice seems unique in her ability to have two forms as a chain, one being a human form. Perhaps this is more evidence of Black Rabbit being separate from her. I don't think that's the real Jack that she's hugging. It's just a Jack doll in the Cheshire dimension, just like there's Alice dolls and etc flying around. |
| It's not related to this chapter, but I am a little confused @@; I need to re-read the manga from the start. Glen had 5 birds chains, one of them is Raven, Barma's chain, Zai's Chain, Cheryl's chain and the chain that belongs to Leo. In which chapter it is revealed? O_O I don't remember and I couldn't find it. |
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| *read the translation* Okay, now I can think somewhat clearly. Talu said: If Jack is indeed the "evil one" in the tragedy of Sablier, and Glen is actually the "hero", and Jack is in Oz's body (or something like that). Could Oz's father actually know about this and that's the reason why he threw him into the abyss? (and the cooperated with the Baskervilles). There's a few 'ifs', but that theory makes quite a lot of sense. I was thinking about Zai yesterday and trying to put him back into the picture. This helped a lot. - I don't think Lacie's their mother. That's just too soap opera-esque for me. Also, I still keep thinking that Vincent does remember everything (except he didn't know what really happened in Sablier), because he seemed to know about Glen being Gil's real master, and then here it sort of seems like he knew Gil was also associated with the Baskervilles. That's also the main reason why I can't see Jack as 'evil' or whatever. He was too kind in Vincent's memories. Orulyon said: No, it's a good point. Everything here has some meaning, and I was also thinking about those pics. Anyway, those hadns could be Jack's, as he is wearing black gloves, and we didn't get to see his right hand. The ring's on his right, and in that picture on the left that hand cannot be seen. So technically it could be him. |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
| I didn't even see page 4 of this discussion. oo Neiru2012 said: I really hate to accuse Glen of something like this - and I'm really not, it's just a hypothesis - but it's possible that Glen might've used Lacie to gain control over the Will. That was his expressed intention all along, after all. By sacrificing a pregnant Lacie to the Abyss, and having her give birth to a child/twins infused with the Will, he could have then retrieved Alice (one to take with him, and one to stay in the Abyss to keep the connection) and kept her locked away in that tower. That is, until it came time to finalize this process and claim control of the Abyss from Alice for himself, perhaps by sacrificing her too. Finding out something like this would horrify Jack, I think. Hence "...you want to use Alice??" Maybe finding out that Alice had developed a will of her own, or that Jack was planning to elope with her, could explain why Glen(?) decided to rush the procedure by ordering the massacre of Sablier to incapacitate Alyss (she was hurt by it). Oh. That makes sense. Then Lacie being their mother doesn't sound that far fetched. You're really good at this, Neiru!** |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
Neiru2012 said: I really hate to accuse Glen of something like this - and I'm really not, it's just a hypothesis - but it's possible that Glen might've used Lacie to gain control over the Will. That was his expressed intention all along, after all. By sacrificing a pregnant Lacie to the Abyss (...) its a good theory. it might be possible that it was very painful to Glen to sacrifice her but he did to save the "world", i guess. Without the Will of the Abyss, chains would go out of control and probably would try to escape to human world leading to thousands of illegal contractors. But now the other question remains: if Lacie was pregnant...who was the father of her child? we know that the time in Abyss flows differently than the real world, but...? GracefulDownfall said: Also, I still keep thinking that Vincent does remember everything (except he didn't know what really happened in Sablier), because he seemed to know about Glen being Gil's real master, and then here it sort of seems like he knew Gil was also associated with the Baskervilles. That's also the main reason why I can't see Jack as 'evil' or whatever. He was too kind in Vincent's memories. Anyway, those hands could be Jack's. funny, but i think the same about Vincent. And even if all memories of Gil were faked by Jack, i have the feeling the memories of Vincent about Jack were not faked. I mean, Vincent really loves Jack and in his memories Jack appears more like "himself" than in Gil´s memories. In Gil´s, "jack" always behaves more polite and sad, while in Vincent´s he appears always more "funny" with his usual personality. In the chapter when Gil asked to Jack if he was Jack Vessalius and he said "no" and called him " my cute little servant", this chapter we find out that probably Glen called him like that because Jack said "low your sword if you dont want me to kill your...cute little servant". BUT, he was crying while he stabbed Gil. So i do believe he did like Vincent and that he was really his master. Jack might not be entirely evil... as for the photo, im hoping for those hands with the ring to appear in the manga, lol. When they do, then we´ll have our "guilty". Also, i never understood Break´s quote (and the next) in this page to Oz in chapter 9. If someone knows the meaning, please let me know. Thanks:D |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| This was an awesome chapter! Interesting to read all your assumptions here. Personally I agree that at least Vincent was Jack's servant. Everything is possible with Gil though. "Who's who?" is as confusing as always here in Pandora. I wonder what happens next. Can't wait! PS I can't believe that Pandora Hearts is only #40 here on MAL. |
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| I'd love for the anime to continue after the manga. Would be amazing to see it all animated :-D |
| The hell just happened!? Wow thanks to all your comment I realized I don't remember most of the manga! I will re-read it but after the next chapter I think. |
StripFeelingSep 25, 2011 3:23 PM
| Sorry for my English ^^' If you notice any mistakes, please tell me about it ^^ Thanks for corrections ^^ |
| This is one of the most epic manga chapters i have ever seen. |
| LOL now I love this manga, it's totally following the theme of Alice in Wonderland which is identity. You never know any of the character's true identity. XDD genius. |
| Never ignore a person who loves you, cares for you, and misses you. Because one day, you might wake up from your sleep and realize that you lost the moon while counting the stars. |
| It's always bothered me how Alice was attacked by a whole bunch of Alice clones in the Cheshire dimension. This could be explained by the idea that Alice fears herself the most, and that "the memories that are replayed here eliminate all intruders," but there are more sinister interpretations. Alice has always wanted to know why she was born and this could go towards explaining it. Why does she fear herself the most? Alice and Lacie look nearly identical - maybe they literally were clones. Maybe the "Glen"s had kept several generations of Alice clones - girls with a direct connection to the Will of the Abyss - in an attempt to keep control over the Abyss. Sacrificing Lacie, and later possibly wanting to sacrifice Alice, and who knows how many iterations before them, may have been part of the perfecting of a process to destroy the Will and claim its power for the Baskervilles. Far-fetched, I know. |
Neiru2013Sep 26, 2011 5:40 PM
Neiru2012 said: <333 Vince confessing love to Gil >^.^< <333 Gil on top of Vince >^.^< <333 Gil taking hit for Vince >^.^< THIS THIS THIS. Ahahaha, these scenes made me ridiculously happy for some reason... Anyway, AMAZING chapter. This must be one of my favourite chapters ever, I loved everything about it. It took me about a week to be able to calm down and write a somewhat coherent comment here, haha. I think it's way too early to label Jack as the "bad guy" and Glen as the "good guy". I didn't like Jack that much before, but I think I actually like him a lot more now. I find his character much more interesting now. :D So Vincent was Jack's little servant, while Gil was Glen's. Baskervilles. Leo is a Baskerville too, isn't he? And he ages just like Gil because we can see flashbacks of little kid Leo. However, Zwei doesn't seem to age. I'M CONFUSED. Neiru2012 said: It's always bothered me how Alice was attacked by a whole bunch of Alice clones in the Cheshire dimension. I was rewatching the anime a while ago and thought that scene was really weird. And I remember Jack once talked about some "Celia" too, who was the contractor of Humpty Dumpty or something. And "Celia" is another anagram of "Alice". Maybe there were several clones of Alice/Lacie... @___@ Ah, well, I guess we can only wait for Jun's explanation. |
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Amarevia said: Neiru2012 said: <333 Vince confessing love to Gil >^.^< <333 Gil on top of Vince >^.^< <333 Gil taking hit for Vince >^.^< THIS THIS THIS. Ahahaha, these scenes made me ridiculously happy for some reason... I was SOOO happy for them! I mean, I've always paired Vincent with Gil in a creepy stalker kind of way, but now there's actual mutual caring and opening up to each other. It's like a HUGE weight was lifted between them. I really hope Vince can hug and comfort Gil in this traumatic time and can't wait to see more interaction between them next chapter. Amarevia said: I think it's way too early to label Jack as the "bad guy" and Glen as the "good guy". I didn't like Jack that much before, but I think I actually like him a lot more now. I find his character much more interesting now. :D I KNOW, RIGHT?!? I think that Jack is essentially like Oz: fundamentally innocent, caring, and sensitive. I also think that all of these qualities, in both Jack and Oz, can be twisted in various ways if they are faced with something that's an affront to their values... namely, a threat to the people they love and want to protect. I think it's generally out of character for Jack to flip out like this, so there had to be some important reason. It's the age-old dilemma of "what drives nice people do bad things." Who is to say that Glen wasn't or isn't trying to do something worse? What sense does it make to call Jack a villain for non-lethally slashing Gil in order to get leverage on Glen, who was massacring a whole mansion/city (including children) from what we know so far - probably to gain control over the Abyss, probably wanting to do something bad to Alice. How do we even judge any of this when we know so little? Now, I don't really think either Jack or Glen are "wrong." Or, rather, they both are, and we can't see the whole picture without understanding where each is coming from. Jack and Glen have differences in how they see the world, what they want out of it, and what methods they're willing to use to accomplish their goals. I don't see why there is a need to classify heroes and villains. And, when dealing with something as deep and complex as PH, I don't see how the terms even apply. It's a futile attempt to put the characters into little boxes that they don't fit in, and results in a lot of assumptions and overlooking of information. It's really depressing how quickly and how vehemently so many in the PH fandom turned on Jack. =/ Amarevia said: Baskervilles. Leo is a Baskerville too, isn't he? And he ages just like Gil because we can see flashbacks of little kid Leo. However, Zwei doesn't seem to age. I'M CONFUSED. I've since seen it suggested that they don't age once they contract, which would make sense. I mean, it still wouldn't make sense why Glen would want Gil to contract that early, but maybe it doesn't always result in age freezing, just like with regular humans. |
Neiru2013Sep 27, 2011 2:14 PM
| I, for one, assumed it was snowflakes because Jack said that "whenever it snows I am reminded of that day" and then we see the Lacie flashback. But there's no reason why there couldn't be Abyss lights around her, too... she doesn't come off entirely human to me. And wow, my brain didn't really register that Jack had a double-speech bubble when he said "hindrance." I guess because it was blacked out and I thought it was just an aesthetic way to frame the darkness of the speech bubble, but it could very well be an indication of some kind of Abyss power like when Baskervilles and chains talk. That'd be interesting. Kinda makes me wonder if either Jack or Lacie might be the B-Rabbit. Jack's presence gets stronger as the contract seal progresses, after all, and so does his influence over Oz in B-Rabbit mode. |
Neiru2012 said: Kinda makes me wonder if either Jack or Lacie might be the B-Rabbit. Jack's presence gets stronger as the contract seal progresses, after all, and so does his influence over Oz in B-Rabbit mode. Seems plausible. B-Rabbit stopped making sense at Lutwidge for me, though, and it's one of the mysteries I'd say I'm most lost on. Another thing though, why are there flower petals in Jack/Oz's consciousness... Thing... Come to think of it, are those pools of consciousness somehow related to the abyss? Alright, one thing that's really irritating me about Jack right now - in retrace 22 Jack told Oz that he "has to stop him (Glen) - because he his my best friend". That's exactly what Oz did in this chapter, and Jack... I guess I have to either pin that on manipulation on Jack's part or something hitherto unfathomable to my comprehension... |
| I'm starting to think I'm the only person who didn't find Jack stabbing Leo [strange] at all. Leo is a "Glen" and therefore Jack's enemy due to whatever triggered the Sablier tragedy. Leo is also completely bonkers, went on a destructive rampage in the middle of a city, followed Oz to Pandora in order to cast him back into the Abyss (and he wasn't kidding around about this), and has expressed a willingness to repeat the Sablier tragedy if necessary. He had one moment of clarity where he hesitated and dissipated his uber strong chain, there was no guarantee how long this would last, so why wouldn't Jack take advantage of such an opening? He probably tried to reason with Glen about something like this before and it didn't work, so this time he took the initiative. As far as Jack is concerned, Leo is "Glen," a very powerful being whose motives and methods Jack doesn't agree with and considers dangerous. Why? We don't yet know. Probably something to do with Lacie, but we don't know specifically what, so I don't think it's fair to judge it. |
Neiru2013Sep 27, 2011 6:04 PM
Raemya said: Neiru2012 said: Kinda makes me wonder if either Jack or Lacie might be the B-Rabbit. Jack's presence gets stronger as the contract seal progresses, after all, and so does his influence over Oz in B-Rabbit mode. Another thing though, why are there flower petals in Jack/Oz's consciousness... Thing... Come to think of it, are those pools of consciousness somehow related to the abyss? Well whenever we saw Jack´s memories in Lacie´s grave, he usually carried roses, so the petals must be connected to Lacie. It makes sense that B-Rabbit might be Lacie. Also, In the PH calendar where a girl appears dead between Glen and Jack, that looks like Alyss, but its probably Lacie since she seems dead, white flower petals are falling around her. And actually now that ive been re-reading some chapters of PH, i found out how Jack can be ironic. In chapter 8 (i read another translation, the "official" one from the volumes i bought, which differs a bit from the online version, the first time he sees Gil, he says to himl with a somehow ironic smile, in online version: "ah. Its you. will you protect him for sure this time?" but in yenpress version he said to him " ohhh, its you. Make sure you protect him properly this time all right?" A big hint if we interpret those words carefully, its more like a hint of "protect your master this time since you couldnt protect your previous one" XD Also |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
Neiru2012 said: I'm starting to think I'm the only person who didn't find Jack stabbing Leo at all. Sorry to nitpick, but I'd like to know - your missing a word there, mind filling it in? Or am I just an idiot? Orulyon said: In that image, we see half of a girl, her dress and shoes. "Hurry come to me soon" is the quote we see, but that is not the dress that Alyss usually wears, is it? Might be Lacie. If you asked me a week ago, I'd say "no, of course not, that's obviously the Will of the Abyss". Thanks to Mochizuki taking such advantage of ambiguous speaking, now I'll say "Yes, that does seem like it could be a possibility". Especially with "choosing B rabbit over me" which seems to indicate resentment. But it's 'b rabbit' and not alice, so I don't know what to make of it and fail to assemble a coherent thought whatsoever in the majority of this paragraph, unfortunately. Alyss's wish doesn't make a lot of sense to me, because I was always under the impression she really disliked her sister. Of course, then there's the time + apparent instability to change her mind, and then there's still the scene with the bunny doll. All in all, I guess that scene seems like it fits with the Will of the Abyss, but it being someone else isn't out of the question...? Oh. One more thing. Once, when I was rereading, it drove me nuts for a while, because those shoes look a lot like Sharon's . After almost freaking out, I managed to spot a difference between them, but still... Neiru2012 said: Leo is a "Glen" and therefore Jack's enemy due to whatever triggered the Sablier tragedy. Leo is also completely bonkers, went on a destructive rampage in the middle of a city, followed Oz to Pandora in order to cast him back into the Abyss (and he wasn't kidding around about this), and has expressed a willingness to repeat the Sablier tragedy if necessary. He had one moment of clarity where he hesitated and dissipated his uber strong chain, there was no guarantee how long this would last, so why wouldn't Jack take advantage of such an opening? He probably tried to reason with Glen about something like this before and it didn't work, so this time he took the initiative. As far as Jack is concerned, Leo is "Glen," a very powerful being whose motives and methods Jack doesn't agree with and considers dangerous. Why? We don't yet know. Probably something to do with Lacie, but we don't know specifically what, so I don't think it's fair to judge it. Hm. I guess that makes some sense? I dunno, I just have trouble reconciling the two scenes. It's pretty ruthless to take that much initiative, but I guess "I don't need friends anymore"... But at the same time, he's come across as really valuing Glen as a friend. I just really have a hard time readjusting my view into something coherent with Jack. Maybe when we get a better idea of Glen and Jack's motives I'll understand it better. I sure hope so, at least. And, I'm afraid I just fail at evaluating characters in this manga. |
RaemyaSep 27, 2011 6:02 PM
Raemya said: Neiru2012 said: I'm starting to think I'm the only person who didn't find Jack stabbing Leo at all. Sorry to nitpick, but I'd like to know - your missing a word there, mind filling it in? Or am I just an idiot? Lol, sorry, that was supposed to be "I'm starting to think I'm the only person who didn't find Jack stabbing Leo STRANGE at all." |
Neiru2012 said: Raemya said: Neiru2012 said: I'm starting to think I'm the only person who didn't find Jack stabbing Leo at all. Sorry to nitpick, but I'd like to know - your missing a word there, mind filling it in? Or am I just an idiot? Lol, sorry, that was supposed to be "I'm starting to think I'm the only person who didn't find Jack stabbing Leo STRANGE at all." Okay, thanks. Hm, well, you have an I'm envious unusual degree of comprehension in regards to this manga, I guess (or am I just stupid?). My train of thought (erm, impressions. No conscious reasoning was applied) with this panel went 1) something actually along your point; it seemed like Oz felt Leo needed to die (My attention first went to the center panel, and, again, no reasoning went into this) then 2) "Oz somehow lost control of B rabbit's power and it would attack at random", although 'losing control of B rabbit's power'has been shown to have results in situations like Cheshire's dimension to 3) "Oh, it's Jack. Why?" Took me a while to digest the rest of information, and it wasn't until I was rereading chapter 22 earlier today that I started getting really thrown off. Neiru2012 said: It's really depressing how quickly and how vehemently so many in the PH fandom turned on Jack. Eh, it kinda makes some sense. There was one point in the chapter when I was rather happy to have someone to root against and blame for more of the characters' problems. Then I realized, 'oh, yeah, ph, no character'll be that simple when they've been around for so long/have that much importance'. Not to mention Vincent and Leo wouldn't hesitate to do the same for Gil or Elliot... |
RaemyaSep 27, 2011 6:26 PM
Amarevia said: Vincent was Jack's little servant, while Gil was Glen's. This is wrong because in one of the chapters chibi Vincent asks Jack if he can use the word Master once just like his brother Gil which implies that he had no current Master. Another thing is that i wanted to ask if that grave where Oz found the clock was Lacie right if she had split into two part then i dont think they would make a grave for her.Also when Duke Barma was explaining about what Jack had written down in a book or something i dont remember the story went thsi way : Jack found this girl which turned out to be Alice in a tower where Glen kept her.After that he found that she was actually two people and so on...... |
Dreamtime said: Also when Duke Barma was explaining about what Jack had written down in a book or something i dont remember the story went thsi way : Jack found this girl which turned out to be Alice in a tower where Glen kept her.After that he found that she was actually two people and so on...... I don't think it said "she turned out to be two people", more like, 'sometimes she acted like a different person, even the cat disliked her' Not sure though. However, what I wanted to point out is that not everything Barma said must be true. After all, the Barmas are in the whole with Jack so.. Oh, it did say that the cat avoided her sometimes, right? Well, which one did Cheshire avoid? Oo Alice? Cause he loves Alyss. Yet he didn't seem to hate Alice either. That part always confused me. |
deadoptimist said: Though I think shit-flinging should also have standards - no personal, no behind the scenes. |
Dreamtime said: Amarevia said: Vincent was Jack's little servant, while Gil was Glen's. This is wrong because in one of the chapters chibi Vincent asks Jack if he can use the word Master once just like his brother Gil which implies that he had no current Master. No, i believe its right. i think Vince was for sure Jack´s servant, otherwise he wouldnt have such a close relationship with him? The most precious persons to Vince till today are Gil...and Jack. In that chapter he tried to call Jack "master" because he probably didnt use that word before to address Jack, since Jack was so carefree and even said to Vince to call him " brother" (onii-san). Maybe before that, Vince only called him "Jack" or something similar. Judging by Jack´s personality, Jack would not find it disrespectful, but Glen would probably find it not polite if Gil called him just by his name. We all know that Jack never liked formalities, after all, he met Lottie for the first time and instead of calling her Charlotte, or Lady Charlotte, he instantly gave her a nickname. Neiru2012 said: It's really depressing how quickly and how vehemently so many in the PH fandom turned on Jack. Jack was always my fav, i shall not turn my back on him unless he is a total bastard, which i seriously doubt. He must have strong reasons to do what he did. It was wrong indeed, and evil-ish, but, can we really blame him? he´s doing it for love, after all...just like Vince did many stuff in the name of bromance. |
ワンダーランド花 ♥ |
| OMGOMG Now I'm more confused about PH then everO_o Ok so I red the first chapters a long long time ago, so if I remember correctly there was a stuff about that Jacks soul and body sealed and destroyed Glens soul and body, but when it was about that Jacks soul is appaered I was a bit confused about this, "how could that be, if Jacks soul was used?"(and of course I was thinking about that Glens souls reborning is weird too) so from that point it was strange and confusing for me, but now I understand why... Can somebody explane me this sealing/destorying stuff, I can't remember well for this correctly^^" |
Barbara-chan said: Can somebody explane me this sealing/destorying stuff, I can't remember well for this correctly^^" Rufus said that he decoded a book written by Arthur Barma, eye-witness to the Sablier tragedy. Arthur wrote that Jack defeated Glen and Arthur then placed a curse on his soul and trap him in sleep by dividing up Jack's body into 5 parts and putting them in sealing stones. Obviously at least the part about dividing up Jack's body to use in the sealing stones is wrong. It might also be a bit vague who "his soul" is. This is further complicated by the fact that Oz feels extreme discomfort around the sealing stones, although this can be explained by the fact that the sealing stones "can suppress the power of chains," and the B-Rabbit in particular (Alice can't even move if she approaches them) has some kind of power related to the sealing stones. The sorcerer's mother told him that Jack said so, referencing the B-Rabbit even 100 years ago. Jack was there to ask the sorcerers to stop Glen for him. He does not appear to want the sealing stones destroyed, which reinforces that they are a curse to restrain Glen's power. The Baskervilles are now going around destroying the sealing stones in order to re-awaken Glen. However, it is unclear what exactly the sealing stones are sealing off. The "Glens" are able to communicate with Leo, and say that the reason they don't do so more often is because he voluntarily rejected them, refused to listen, refused to see, and denied their existence, although is apparently still able to subconsciously call on their help. But the "Glens" do seem to have some memory problems. They can't even remember Humpty Dumpty's name. Maybe that's part of what is being sealed off by the curse: Glen's memories, knowledge and/or specific powers. Leo feels the need to destroy the sealing stones in order to ask Glen information directly, which suggests something is hindering him doing so now. GracefulDownfall said: Oh, it did say that the cat avoided her sometimes, right? Well, which one did Cheshire avoid? Oo Alice? Cause he loves Alyss. Yet he didn't seem to hate Alice either. That part always confused me. That's really confused me a lot too. I've just finished re-reading the Cheshire arc, though, and I think I might be closer to figuring it out. Basically, maybe Jack was misinterpreting Cheshire's feelings. He thought Cheshire hated that Alice, and Break sorta thought so too, but Break later said that it's more that Cheshire was scared of Alice. Cheshire loves Alice and wants to destroy everything that hurts her, but what Alice is most scared of is herself, so he can come off hostile to her. This gets weird, though, because this would make B-Rabbit Alice the "dark" Alice Jack didn't recognize and asked "who are you?", yet it is W-Rabbit Alice who flipped out when Oz asked her the same thing. And W-Rabbit is the one jealous of Oz(/Jack?) picking B-Rabbit over her. Oz might've been picking up Cheshire's feelings when he was willing to destroy Alice to make her pain go away, or at least Oz makes that connection between himself and Cheshire. I think that Cheshire, Oz, and Jack might feel very similarly about Alice, since Oz later says the same thing outside of Cheshire's dimension, and I think much of Oz in B-Rabbit mode is Jack's influence (plus Jack surfaces shortly after). |
Neiru2013Sep 28, 2011 5:52 PM
| My mind = Blown Alice = Lacie? Well... Mix it up the letters and you get either one. I wasn't surprised at that. HOWEVER! JACK BEING THAT WAY JUST BLOWS ME! I was like... WHAT?! Also... Now that I think about it, why did they take in Alice (the human one) before the tragedy happened... Was it because both Glen and Jack thought she looked like Alice? If so, that might explain why Vincent was angry at her every time because it's what causes either one of them (Glen and Jack) to have conflict... Or it might just be because of Gil like usual. Maybe Alice (Will of abyss and B- Rabbit Alices) are the resurrections of Lacie? Or maybe Lacie was resurrected as Alice, then when she died she split into two entities... OR NO! Lacie = Will of the Abyss B - Rabbit Alice = Alice of tragedy! That may work!!!! ... -ish... Well, because Lacie admires Jack a lot. And looking at the beginning of Jack's flashback thing, she was the first one he met. But of course Alice was like that, too... I don't know anymore!!! But man! This is awesome!! Can't wait for next chapters. |
| "I don't need a reason to save someone" Kamijou Touma |
| I don't think jack is the bad or the good one, both Jack and Glen had their own reasons.. |
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