Puella Magi Madoka Magica
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g_animebr said: I think that black cat is Homura. What makes you think that? I remember all those crazy bingo charts for guessing Homura's identity but I think this episode made it pretty clear that Homura is just...Homura. Unless you mean she'll turn into a cat in the future, which is an odd theory. Only thing I can see her turning into is a witch, but I'll be very unhappy if that ever happens. metamorphius said: Still not sure about that. On the one hand, I've been thinking that could be Homura herself ever since I saw that magazine cover. On the other hand, the last ep ED had both the cat and Homura together which may suggest they are different entities. The third option you've mentioned - SHAFT trolling all of us who have too much free time to ponder about things like this - is not unlikely either. So, obviously, I'm not being very helpful with answering the question for I'm still vacillating. Oh, yea, she could somehow be related to Madoka's wish, whatever her wish is. A troll cat would be pretty funny but I think I'd prefer the black cat to have some kind of meaning, preferablly one that makes me shit bricks like the rest of the show so far. Well, there's been a slew of Homura fanart with cat ears and glasses. I think leaving just one of them true is good enough. I have no idea about if it has to do with Madoka's wish but her wishes probably have not been the same throughout all the timelines. I mean, what on earth could she have wished for in her first week when she met Mami? Hopefully not something frivolous like, "I wish to have this drawing as my costume when I become a magical girl!". The better the wish, the stronger of a magical girl you are...and witch. Then again, Madoka has been getting stronger (or at least it looks that way) as Homura goes through more jumps to the past. And...that had nothing to do with cats at all. >_< |
WaffocopterMar 14, 2011 12:48 PM
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Waffocopter said: g_animebr said: I think that black cat is Homura. What makes you think that? I remember all those crazy bingo charts for guessing Homura's identity but I think this episode made it pretty clear that Homura is just...Homura. Unless you mean she'll turn into a cat in the future, which is an odd theory. Only thing I can see her turning into is a witch, but I'll be very unhappy if that ever happens. Well it's just a hunch,I don't know, maybe Homura dies in the last episode and Madoka wish she transform on a magic cat to prevent Homura turns into a witch? Anyway, Madoka seems happy with the cat :)   |
heartofsilkyMar 14, 2011 1:30 PM
| Homura doesn't really have a strong connection with Sayaka, though (or anyone else but Madoka for that matter). And Sayaka's the one holding the black cat in the last bit of the opening song. Come to think of it, I wonder if we'll find out anything of Homura's family. Their sick daughter comes home from the hospital acting very serious and her room possibly has the lingering smell of gunpowder whenever they enter? That must be a bit odd for them. |
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| Homura doesn't really have a strong connection with Sayaka, though (or anyone else but Madoka for that matter). And Sayaka's the one holding the black cat in the last bit of the opening song. Come to think of it, I wonder if we'll find out anything of Homura's family. Their sick daughter comes home from the hospital acting very serious and her room possibly has the lingering smell of gunpowder whenever they enter? That must be a bit odd for them. |
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Waffocopter said: Consider the fact that, outside of the last two loops, Madoka became a magical girl after her encounter with Mami which ussually occurs before Homura ever had a chance to meet her. Only reason Madoka never contracted in timeline 4 and the current timeline is because Homura directly attacked Incubator every time he made the attempt. So, going by that it's easy to guess that in all the other timelines she was as clueless and happy-go-lucky as ever which could have easily led to a frivolous witch like the cake suggestion, or just simply an I want to be a magical girl. Regardless of the potential, Incubator confirms quite early that the actual power of the Magical Girl depends on the wish. This explains why she loses every single time during the first 3 attempts yet when she makes a wish to save Homura, most likely something like "I want the power to defeat [WPN]", the selfless side and strength of the wish most likely granted her the power to completely anihilate it, which of course led to her instantly losing all her strength and transforming.I have no idea about if it has to do with Madoka's wish but her wishes probably have not been the same throughout all the timelines. I mean, what on earth could she have wished for in her first week when she met Mami? Hopefully not something frivolous like, "I wish to have this drawing as my costume when I become a magical girl!". The better the wish, the stronger of a magical girl you are...and witch. Then again, Madoka has been getting stronger (or at least it looks that way) as Homura goes through more jumps to the past. And...that had nothing to do with cats at all. >_< As for all the people suggestion Incubator is in control of Homura's loops, technically they are both right and wrong. Incubator granted her wish, but the only QB that actually knows she traveled to the past is the one that granted her wish. Every time loop QB is never aware of this fact and the first time we see QB realizing this fact he's actually a bit pissed off about it. I guess the first Incubator never gave much thought to the fact Homura could mess up his plans (plus, he had lost Madoka without her turning into a witch so he had nothing to lose). After all, we've seen time and time again that QB doesn't really hold a high value on humans, so he likely rationalized that an emotional and weak Homura wouldn't be able to stand the mental stress of repeating her life over and over and she would just kill herself. |
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| This is...mostly funny. |
| Madoka is more powerful now than she was at the beginning of the cycle. Could it be the cycle that is adding to her power somehow? |
I enjoy watching people's favorites. Recommend your favorite show to me, even if I have it dropped/on hold. |
| Breaking news: found the theme for the final showdown: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I-P8vgsVoRg You'd better, Shaft. You'd better do it. |
"Tonight, I sit in the eye of the storm. As fire boils around me, I press forward, winds and lightning lashing my wings. I am no match for what I face. Yet I will not back down, and though fear may place it's stranglehold on my heart, courage will see me through. With tears in my eyes, I hit full throttle. My engines become an inferno, and my weapons light up, awaiting my command. If I die tonight, I will do so fighting for everything I believe in."  |
Found from the Puella Madoka Wiki. |
Gunther_Mar 16, 2011 3:58 PM
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 Repost from before. The image link was broken. |
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| Hold on, Sayaka! We'll get you out of the bottom! (somehow) |
"Tonight, I sit in the eye of the storm. As fire boils around me, I press forward, winds and lightning lashing my wings. I am no match for what I face. Yet I will not back down, and though fear may place it's stranglehold on my heart, courage will see me through. With tears in my eyes, I hit full throttle. My engines become an inferno, and my weapons light up, awaiting my command. If I die tonight, I will do so fighting for everything I believe in." |
| About the cat. Previous time I was visiting this forum, I thought that the cat maybe "demagicalized" Kyubey. But then I looked at the screencap - oh well, both Kyubey and the cat are there, so debunked. But... my next theroy is that the cat is some sort of "anti-Kyubey". Some other alien species who consider Incubators' doings bad and fight them. But actually having such resolve in the anime would be cheap, I think, and Shaft set a very high level of expectations for this show. But I still theorize it's some kind of "anti-Kyubey". I can't really think of any further explanation, but I anticipate it's the key to defeating or neutralizing Kyubey. There are some hints at that: the cat and Kyubey are similar in size and rough appearance, Kyubey is white and the cat is black. It's like yin and yang ;) Think about such a possibility: Madoka contracts and wishes that "there existed a counterforce for Incubators". And the cat appears, being able to turn witches back into magical girls, or even magical girls back into human. I believe there are ways to execute such plot as an ending in an interesting way. |
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Homerun-chan! |
| @Omniknight - thank you for the charts, very interesting comparison. Concerning those charts,I find it amusing how Mami ojou-sama's popularity is decreasing. I knew it'd happen after she snapped and killed Kyouko, but it's still fun to observe. Concerning the true form of QB: |
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| Aaah finally. Glad to have it canonly clarified. I love this epi. The execution was splendid. Now. I fail to see QB's interference in every time travel Homura did, and I expect him to let her do what she wanted with time because that's his biggest source of energy. Madoka don't have to turn to witch, Walpurgist can spawn forever, other puella magis can die all over, and energy still flows. One way or another finale is near and I wish to applaud Urobuchi for instilling intrigue once more in my life. |
| And today on Brick's random thoughts: Witches. One of the things that separate Madoka from the rest is that Witches are far from being your typical monster of the week. But the truth is, the focus on Witches has mostly been given to their past, as Puellas, not themselves, with Walpurgis being the exception (and that is likely to change). Other than that, it's labyrinths (again, referring to their past), strategies and battle. Now most people are content with that, and they should be. For the most part, I am too. But Witches, apart from their past, have something nearly no other demonic villain has. A soul. Because even though it's battered, beaten, and corrupted to the point of, well, turning them into witches, it's still there. The Grief Seeds are, for all intents and purposes, souls. And as souls, they must have emotions. After all, if they didn't Kyubey wouldn't be interested at all in them. So, what feelings would a Witch have? What would they think, if they could transmit their thought to us? Can they only feel hate, despair, and murderous rage? Even though most point to that, I don't think so. We, humans (and human-born Puellas) have both positive and negative thoughts. We feel bad sometimes, but we (mostly) bounce back. A Grief Seed, corrupted as it is, would have a lot more negative feelings than us, but still, would that be all they can feel? Remember the battle against Sayaka. There is no proof that Sayaka was a powerful Witch: if anything, she was an average Puella. But she fought more fiercely than any Witch we had seen so far. And I think it was because she recognized them, and knew they were there to save her. Some of her scenes seem to show some emotion, even behind that cold mask, and some of her sounds almost feel like emotioned battle cries. I might be wrong. But I am certain she would not fight the same way against any other Puellas/humans. Plus (and this has intrigued me from the start), we know that the levels of corruption inside a Grief Seed vary. You might be WTF'ing while reading this, but it is true. If transferring too much corruption from a Soul Gem to a Grief Seed can release the Witch again, that must mean that, when she was beaten, the level of corruption on her Grief Seed decreased. Could it be, could it be (twice, because I have the feeling my hypothesis are getting more farfetched every time), that all that corruption is nothing but anger, which they must release by going all-out against someone? This also connects to what I posted yesterday: I'll repost it. BrickBreak said: Which brings me to my next thought (full of them nowadays, for some reason. Must be getting pumped up from things going well in university): How exactly do Soul Gems work? The obvious answer would be "DUH, err, it's their soul imbued with magic, get's dark with magic use, and will turn into a grief seed if they don't clean it, derp." Not so fast. That magic corrupts the soul, and Grief Seeds are needed to clean it. Those are facts. But let's not forgot the Soul Gems, regardless of their material nature, are souls. And human souls are quite complex things. After all, if they weren't, Kyubey would have no interest in them. We humans are beings ruled by emotion, even if we like to believe we are driven by reason. We have both positive and negative thoughts, happy and sad moments, and all events have an effect on our soul. Taking you back to episode 7 and 8, Sayaka's demise. She continuously fought witches and familiars, abusing magic, refusing to take grief seeds to cleanse her soul, and it lead her to become a witch. But we clearly saw that the use of magic wasn't the only thing that affecter her soul. Hitomi, Kamijou, and her dismay at regular humans clearly had a dark effect on her soul, and if it was not the main cause, it definitely accelerated her demise. From that, we can conclude that negative feelings pollute one's Soul Gem. Then, could it be, that the answer to a Puella's indefinite survival is the exact opposite? Can constant optimistic thought and cheering up by friends cleanse a Soul Gem, the same way doubt and regret pollute it? I would like to think so. |
"Tonight, I sit in the eye of the storm. As fire boils around me, I press forward, winds and lightning lashing my wings. I am no match for what I face. Yet I will not back down, and though fear may place it's stranglehold on my heart, courage will see me through. With tears in my eyes, I hit full throttle. My engines become an inferno, and my weapons light up, awaiting my command. If I die tonight, I will do so fighting for everything I believe in." |
metamorphius said: Holy shit! That's amazing Dung Beetle render! Concerning the true form of QB: On another note a little reminder: Remember that Kyuubey said that humanity it's not his problem anymore in Timeline 4 after he got enough energy? Does that not piss you off? He just declared he does not give a fuck about any of you nor of the girls contracted that have to deal with Madoka witch. I really think we should not side with guy other than the hight appreciation we have for him in being a villain. This guy just told you in your face, I don't give a fuck about you now that I have what I want. Heck Dung Beetle was way better because he gave a good deal in the end to the last pilot of the robot. |
Yumekichi11 said: metamorphius said: Holy shit! That's amazing Dung Beetle render! Concerning the true form of QB: On another note a little reminder: Remember that Kyuubey said that humanity it's not his problem anymore in Timeline 4 after he got enough energy? Does that not piss you off? He just declared he does not give a fuck about any of you nor of the girls contracted that have to deal with Madoka witch. I really think we should not side with guy other than the hight appreciation we have for him in being a villain. This guy just told you in your face, I don't give a fuck about you now that I have what I want. Heck Dung Beetle was way better because he gave a good deal in the end to the last pilot of the robot. Why should he give a fuck? His role is to ensure the universe is kept a constant supply of energy so it doesn't burn out. He's not here to make friends. His job transcends that of mere human existence. He has zero ties to humanity, much less the girls themselves. Besides, he has zero emotion to begin with. He's not going to go "Oh... I fucked up those girls' lives. I feel kind of bad now." Humans, witches, magical girls, they are all just tools to him. Tools to be used in an endless cycle to ensure the universe is kept going. |
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Wasabi said: That's exactly what Yumekichi is trying to bring forth though. So far there's been several arguments that QB is merely pragmatic but his "meh, not my problem" attitude goes beyond just simple rationality into a "I have no need of my guinea pigs now that they have no use" territory. He's basically throwing humanity aside like used batteries which completely destroys the argument he made to Madoka about a small sacrifice for the good of all races, including humans. It raises several questions to and also suggests that humans are merely one of many races from which emotions can be farmed from, seeing as he's willing to sacrifice humans entirely.Why should he give a fuck? His role is to ensure the universe is kept a constant supply of energy so it doesn't burn out. He's not here to make friends. His job transcends that of mere human existence. He has zero ties to humanity, much less the girls themselves. Besides, he has zero emotion to begin with. He's not going to go "Oh... I fucked up those girls' lives. I feel kind of bad now." Humans, witches, magical girls, they are all just tools to him. Tools to be used in an endless cycle to ensure the universe is kept going. In other words, it's fine if you consider him a great villain, but don't try to pass QB off as neutral anymore. After all, he willingly instigates the destruction of the Earth in at least one timeline, and he's not beyond destroying entire cities just to gather up strong witches. |
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Yumekichi11 said: On another note a little reminder: Remember that Kyuubey said that humanity it's not his problem anymore in Timeline 4 after he got enough energy? Does that not piss you off? He just declared he does not give a fuck about any of you nor of the girls contracted that have to deal with Madoka witch. I really think we should not side with guy other than the hight appreciation we have for him in being a villain. This guy just told you in your face, I don't give a fuck about you now that I have what I want. Heck Dung Beetle was way better because he gave a good deal in the end to the last pilot of the robot. I'd probably have been pissed off if that had happened several episodes ago. Now I've used up most of my 'pissing off energy' (eh, now that I wrote it, it doesn''t sound right xD), that is to say, I got used to his perfect 'businessalien' demeanor. Now that I give it more thought, it's easy to draw parallels between QB's behaviour and humans' actions. We have often behaved in very much similar fashion QB does, exhausting resources of a region and simply moving to another region once those are depleted. Unfortunately, we cannot just leave the Earth once it's doomed, QB can. Sry if this sounds like preaching, that's definitely not my intention, i just find the similarities interesting. Ofc, I'm by no means trying to defend the conniving furball. On the contrary, I'm prepared to thoroughly enjoy his downfall once/if it happensಠ⌣ಠ I want to see this face: |
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violaine said: "your wish has improved the entropy" thank you, come again LOL I though that too. Btw |
danieru-san said: Much like Sayaka's fate it seems. Although Sayaka's fate is closely linked to the fact her wish is far too related to passionate emotions. Mami's fate seems to be closely linked to her overconfidence and naive belief of justice (which leads her to either die fighting or crack under the pressure of the truth).violaine said: "your wish has improved the entropy" thank you, come again LOL I though that too. Btw |
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| Madoka's Witch Name: Kriemhild Gretchen http://wiki.puella-magi.net/Kriemhild_Gretchen |
| Simplistic beauty can't be appreciated by someone who looks for something grand in everything he watch. |
| I liked this episode. It was interesting to find out about Homura. |
| I liked this episode. It was interesting to find out about Homura. |
| I liked this episode. It was interesting to find out about Homura. |
| I liked this episode. It was interesting to find out about Homura. |
| I liked this episode. It was interesting to find out about Homura. |
ZaggyPlushie said: no, in first timeline Madoka defeat Walpurgis Night but she died too. And 4th timeline, maybe she directly give all her power for one strike, defeat Walpurgis Night, and because that, she is turn into witch instantly. |
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| I am late watching this episode because of finals week, but since 11 was postponed, it works out. What an episode, they did a good job telling Homura's story. I got chills from the song playing during the recap of the last battle with Walpurgis Night. Can't wait for the next episode. |
| EMChamp's Anime Blog: http://emchampanime.wordpress.com/ |
ZaggyPlushie said: Something is bothering me Why, in the 1st timeline madoka fail at walpurgis night and the last timeline she kill it in 1 hit. Doesnt make sense. this has already been explained somewhere in these 15 pages, prolly someting about what kinda wish you make with QB |
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| Looong wall of text, after rewatching ep 1-10 1. Homura's wish and reset. Wish: I want to relive meeting Madoka for the 1st time again - not as someone she protects, but as someone who can protect her instead. Effects: Reset 1: she thinks joining the MG-team is enough, but Madoka turns into a witch Reset 2: new solution: warn everyone about QB. No-one believes her, drama when they do learn the truth and she ends up mercy killing Madoka, promising her to safe her from QB. Reset 3: change of plan. Instead of helping Madoka to survive, she now tries to avoid her from contracting. Up to now Madoka was already a magical girl at Homu's 1st schoolday. So this scene:  is strange. It's clear Madoka hasn't contracted yet, so either - Homura has been succesful in killing QB every time he tried to make contact with Madoka or - she visits Madoka before her first day at school (and Madoka shows another sign of remembering Homura). Whatever she did, along the way she has delayed the time Madoka contracts. (And it also suggests a lot of loops were skipped in ep 10). Along the resets, Madoka has 1 thing that remains unchanged: her wish to help and protect others. Other than that, she changes from an optimistic, confident person into a timid girl who hides behind Sayaka when Homura looks at her. We've seen the impact of wishes on Kyouko's father and Kamiyou, and I think the same thing is happening to Madoka (though gradually): she's changing into a person that needs protection. At the same time, her potential and power as a magical girl increases. She's strong enough to defeat Walpurga in the initial timeline, but dies in the proces. In reset 3, she exceeds QB's expectations, while in the current timeline he believes she can change the law of nature, be a goddess, i.o.w. the sky is the limit. So did Madoka have that godtier power in the original timeline? I don't think so. I think she was just another girl contracting, wishing to become a magical girl and protect everyone. Right before fighting Walpurga, she tells Homura how happy she is becoming a magical girl, she defeats Walpurga, and thereby has her wish fullfilled. And going by Faust, that means death (and Mami again doesn't die alone). Than Homura helps her fight Walp, protects Madoka, therefore leaving room for Madoka to change into a witch. Than she introduces knowledge - first directly, later by trying to delay the inevitable. Result: increase of despair and mercy-killings. So yes, Homura's doings are certainly making matters worse. An option would be to go back to the initial timeline, but I don't think she can - her wish being to re-do it. I do think the resets are voluntary. Mami (single wish): power - unlimited muskets, ability - binds Sayaka (single wish): power - limited blades, ability - fast healing. Homura (double wish- redo & protect): power - shield to hide stuff (but because her power is weak (stated on official site), she has to steal conventional weapons), abilities - stop time & redo 1st meeting with Madoka. BrickBreak said: Assume Homura has complete control over the time loops. If she manages to completely save the world somehow, with Madoka dying (dying, not turning to witch) in the process, will she restart? As kFYatek said: she did that, because her wish wouldn't be fullfilled if she let Madoka die. And ironically her wish and promise to protect 1 person only, has gradually led to the fact that she has to save the planet in order to do that. Sidenote: I think they did defeat Walpurga every time. While she's alive, there are those circles in the sky, the sky is grey, buildings flying everywhere. Afterwards there are no more buildings flying, no more circles, sun is coming through. But there's a big difference between the timeline where Homura made her promise to Madoka and the current one: Madoka is aware of the consequences now. If she contracts, it will be a clear choice, and she can release Homura from her promise. rest in spoiler |
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cleo said: So this scene: is strange. It's clear Madoka hasn't contracted yet, so either - Homura has been succesful in killing QB every time he tried to make contact with Madoka or - she visits Madoka before her first day at school (and Madoka shows another sign of remembering Homura). The second one is correct.  She wakes up at the hospital a week before her release. Just in time to stop Madoka, if she leaves immediately. cleo said: (And it also suggests a lot of loops were skipped in ep 10). Totally agree. Not because of this, but simple because her experience and skill, particularly in the weapon handling, vastly improved between (what we consider to be) Timeline 3 and 4 (after she mercy kills Madoka). If there are missing timelines, they would probably be located there, and possibly between 4 and 5. cleo said: Along the resets, Madoka has 1 thing that remains unchanged: her wish to help and protect others. Other than that, she changes from an optimistic, confident person into a timid girl who hides behind Sayaka when Homura looks at her. We've seen the impact of wishes on Kyouko's father and Kamiyou, and I think the same thing is happening to Madoka (though gradually): she's changing into a person that needs protection. I think Homura and the "witch shock therapy" she received (while human) is what's keeping her from being strong-willed. Let's face it, both of those are pretty intimidating. Without her, there wouldn't have been such a strong personality pressing on her, nor she would have to face the horrors of witches while being a mere human, and her strong personality would have been able to blossom. cleo said: At the same time, her potential and power as a magical girl increases. She's strong enough to defeat Walpurga in the initial timeline, but dies in the proces. In reset 3, she exceeds QB's expectations, while in the current timeline he believes she can change the law of nature, be a goddess, i.o.w. the sky is the limit. So did Madoka have that godtier power in the original timeline? I don't think so. I think she was just another girl contracting, wishing to become a magical girl and protect everyone. Right before fighting Walpurga, she tells Homura how happy she is becoming a magical girl, she defeats Walpurga, and thereby has her wish fullfilled. And going by Faust, that means death (and Mami again doesn't die alone). Than Homura helps her fight Walp, protects Madoka, therefore leaving room for Madoka to change into a witch. Than she introduces knowledge - first directly, later by trying to delay the inevitable. Result: increase of despair and mercy-killings. So yes, Homura's doings are certainly making matters worse. +1. But why Madoka's power increasing overtime? There are some possibilities I can see: 1- Her wish changes, and along with it, her power. This is the most likely, I believe. As someone said (I deeply apologize, but I can't remember who), her wish in T4 might have been to have enough power to defeat Walpurgis, which would give her gargantuan powers. But if this is correct, her power boosts are limited: eventually, there will be no wish that can make her more powerful. But I am comfortable with that: I don't think she was that stronger in the first three timelines. In T1, she dies. In T2, she survives long enough to turn into a witch: but remember, she and Mami have an extra hand in the form of Homura. In T3, she again survives long enough to turn into a witch, but again, Homura is stronger, as shown against Homura. Only in T4 there is a very visible power increase. 2- Her power carries on between Madokas in each timeline, somehow. Here, the why is the question. - Is Homura's increased strengths having an effect on Madoka's power? - It's part of her "god-like" powers? - ...QB? cleo said: Yeah, I go by gg. I am simply too impatient, sorry :3BrickBreak said: (or going by Yesy's subs: "We've reached our energy recovery quota"."I gathered a lot more energy than our collection quota." Nonetheless, to reach or the overcome a quote here has the same bearing here, as the problem is the very existence of said quota. cleo said: BrickBreak said: Entropy is a continuous process: [...] They completely lost me at that point too. I was willing to go along with the ''MG's turmoil of emotions generates needed energy' (although it's hard to imagine that an intelligent race can't come up with a better solution). Yet they settle for an x-amount, without caring their energy-source will be gone after that. It immediately turns QB's race from highly intelligent to stupidly shortsighted. Unless a. Leon-Gun said: humans are merely one of many races from which emotions can be farmed from Maybe, but, if I'm not mistaken (been watching other anime in the meanwhile, sorry :P I only recently really got into anime, got a lot to catch up), QB says humans are special, or at least better than other races. But even then, it would be far from efficient. So, can't agree with this. cleo said: b. the entire timeloop is the thing that delivers the energy. [..] I can see this happening, but not with that many additions from their part. If this is the case, I think witches would have probably already existed. Even if the girls didn't tuned into them, they would be needed to fight them. But to be honest, even simply adding that transition seems too much for the Incubators. If that is true, however, it opens the door for a Puella that does not have to fear becoming a witch, gaining her power from a different source, other than QB. It would be a bit cheap, but again, any plot will work if well executed. cleo said: Also Madoka contracting would go against Homura's wish, and we've yet to find out if a magical girl can die without her wish being fullfilled. Or Madoka learns about Homura's wish & promise and releases Homura from it. But can she do it? It is possible that Madoka simply uttering the words "I do not need you to protect me" would break the cycle, but again, that wouldn't fulfill Homura's wish. Unlikely. cleo said: . Higurashi ending with all girls present Yes, it would have the highest chance of them winning against Walpurga, but let's face it: all odds are against getting all of them in magical girl-form at the event. Besides, Mami and Sayaka haven't proven to be trustworthy partners: Mami freaks out when learnig the truth, and Sayaka goes into self-distruct mode. Given that situation, neither of their (Mami and Sayaka's) personalities would be an issue: they would have to deal it after killing that mammoth floating above the broken city. (on a related note, go Sayaka!) cleo said: . Faustian ending. Madoka-witch is called Kriemhild Gretchen. The link with the Nibelungen is brilliant imo. It opens a whole new bunch of possibilities, as Kriemhild went from a gentle and courteous to full-fledged revenge mode, causing the death of a lot of people, and decapitating the guy who murdered her husband. In the end she's hacked in two/pieces. Madoka going MADoka? Would certainly be interesting to see... cleo said: Faust 1 ends with Gretchen being imprisoned (has contracted?), Faust gets Mephistopholes to help him rescue her, but Gretchen choses death (and goes to heaven). There's no conclusion for Faust, as he hasn't reached his 'happy moment'. -> Madoka dies, Homura does a reset. We've seen that already, so I think they'll come up with something else. Agreed. cleo said: In part 2 Faust is admitted in heaven. It ends with wilderness, as nature is the harbinger of divine love. Interesting that Madoka's witch-form is a mountain. So... Timeline 3-type ending, Bad Witch Girlz In The Hood ending, living happily forever as witches? A'ight, it's getting long (and late, at least here in Portugal), so I'll just leave two random questions: First, a question relating to Ep 8, but always forgot to ask when I was posting: what exactly did Sayaka transformed into in the train? A mini-witch? A "dark puella", as in, imagine her in her normal attire, but all grey, and slicing the two assholes open with her swords? I would go with the second, the first seems rather awkward and wold open too many doors, as she went back to human form afterwards. Second... and I think a lot of people will hate me for asking this, specially with Sayaka being my favorite character. But... do you think we'll see Madoka burying Sayaka's body? |
"Tonight, I sit in the eye of the storm. As fire boils around me, I press forward, winds and lightning lashing my wings. I am no match for what I face. Yet I will not back down, and though fear may place it's stranglehold on my heart, courage will see me through. With tears in my eyes, I hit full throttle. My engines become an inferno, and my weapons light up, awaiting my command. If I die tonight, I will do so fighting for everything I believe in." |
 Found on another forum. |
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| I'm probs gonna watch ep10 again and post again. In the meantime: I was to firstly point out that Homura's wish is quite ambiguous. "I want to re-do my encounter with Madoka" This is what Homura DOES. That is, she has the power to "redo the encounter" which would explain why she only ever goes back in time to that exact moment (well a week before really) before meeting Madoka at school. This is not the ambiguous point. "I want to protect Madoka, instead of her protecting me." This is what Homura DESIRES. This is the ambiguity. How will Homura protect Madoka, and from what? From what we've seen in the other characters, it seems fair to say that Homura can't die or become a witch until her wish is granted; that is, until Madoka is "protected" (whatever that means), Homura's story can continue indefinitely. So far she has failed to save Madoka from dying or from becoming a wtich. So if "protecting" Madoka means saving her from death and corruption, one possible ending is that Madoka doesn't die or become a witch. [Speculation] But if Homura relaxes her condition for "protecting" Madoka (like maybe she just protected Madoka's feelings/purity, or their friendship - something as dull as that), then a fair ending would be that Madoka contracts nonetheless, kills Walpurgis Night, becomes a witch and gets killed by Homura. Homura might come to accept that she can't save Madoka from her fate of dying or becoming a witch, but she could still accept that she protected Madoka nonetheless up to the point of death/corruption. Thus, Homura's wish would be fulfilled, and this ending would also account for how her wish would backfire - Madoka doesn't live. Other notes: There have been more timelines than were shown in ep10 A lot of people have concluded this. Something I want to add is that Homura seems very stern about giving up hope in Sayaka. In ep10 we only saw her become a witch like once (twice including normal timeline); but logically that's not enough for us to conclude that Sayaka will become a witch everytime she contracts. Homura must've lived through a lot more, trying to save Sayaka but failing just the same. Theory behind Homura's power (time stop): If everyone's power relates to their wish or desire in some way, then Homura's time stop must relate to something. Remember, this is different to going back in time (which was directly related to re-doing the encounter with Madoka ONLY - she can't/doesn't turn back time for any other reason). My theory is this: "Homura can generate an infinite amount of time (provided she has the mana to do so) by stopping time, or by turning it back to re-encounter Madoka. But maybe her power is to show her that no matter how much time she has or gets, she will never be able to protect Madoka in the way she originally wants to (from dying or becoming a witch). This would be consistent with my speculation of the ending - that Madoka contracts and becomes a witch and gets killed by Homura all the same." [Speculation] In light of the above, Walpurgis Night can still be Homura (from the future). But maybe Homura only turns in Walpurgis Night after infinitely trying to save Madoka every time and failing to do so, but in the process becoming stronger herself. The other theory was that Homura gets stronger with each time reset, so eventually she'll become strong enough to become Walpurgis Night. This way, Walpurgis Night might've come back from the future to convince Homura that Madoka cannot be saved and that she should just be allowed to die. This works because Walpurgis Night isn't really the final bad guy/boss; it's witch-Madoka who destroys the world, not Walpurgis Night - and Madoka destroys it in every time line anyway, Madoka is the real threat here. I'll post again after a re-watch but from these lines above, this ending seems desirable as you have simply have all this emotional dialogue in the final episode, where Homura accepts not being able to "protect" Madoka, and then finally kills Madoka herself. Homura lives alone, but hey, it seems like the only acceptable ending. It just wouldn't be nice to have every character come back to life, as if nothing happened. As for Madoka's wish, it might be something as simple as "I want Homura to live on forever" - this would entail Walpurgis Night being defeated as it threatens Homura's life (so Madoka would need power to beat it, since Homura can't); and at the same time something would happens such that Homura was strong enough to beat Madoka's witch (Madoka should become a witch as part of a backfire to her wish). Last question: What happens to Kyubey? If Madoka's wish breaks the Magical Girl -> Witch cycle then Kybey would just go to the planet. End story. If it doesn't, then maybe Homura would have to dedicate her life to stopping Kyubey from contracting other girls. Or an acceptable ending is that Kyubey learns a thing called "sympathy" and stops tricking little girls into giving up their souls and simply leaves the planet to find energy elsewhere. That is, Kyubey learns the value of human life, that would be nice. |
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divineiniquity said: I was to firstly point out that Homura's wish is quite ambiguous. "I want to protect Madoka, instead of her protecting me." This is what Homura DESIRES. This is the ambiguity. How will Homura protect Madoka, and from what? From what we've seen in the other characters, it seems fair to say that Homura can't die or become a witch until her wish is granted; that is, until Madoka is "protected" (whatever that means), Homura's story can continue indefinitely. So far she has failed to save Madoka from dying or from becoming a wtich. So if "protecting" Madoka means saving her from death and corruption, one possible ending is that Madoka doesn't die or become a witch. [Speculation] But if Homura relaxes her condition for "protecting" Madoka (like maybe she just protected Madoka's feelings/purity, or their friendship - something as dull as that), then a fair ending would be that Madoka contracts nonetheless, kills Walpurgis Night, becomes a witch and gets killed by Homura. Homura might come to accept that she can't save Madoka from her fate of dying or becoming a witch, but she could still accept that she protected Madoka nonetheless up to the point of death/corruption. Thus, Homura's wish would be fulfilled, and this ending would also account for how her wish would backfire - Madoka doesn't live. But can she do it? It's possible ("Repeat.") that she is in control of the time loops, and can, at the end of each, choose to go back or not. But it's just as likely that the condition for "saving" Madoka was set when the wish was made. If that is the case, then it must mean absolute salvation: neither death nor turning into a witch broke the cycle. divineiniquity said: There have been more timelines than were shown in ep10 A lot of people have concluded this. Something I want to add is that Homura seems very stern about giving up hope in Sayaka. In ep10 we only saw her become a witch like once (twice including normal timeline); but logically that's not enough for us to conclude that Sayaka will become a witch everytime she contracts. Homura must've lived through a lot more, trying to save Sayaka but failing just the same. Agreed, but for different reasons: her improvements in weapon handling and control of time-stopping are too great for only those timelines, specially considering she only had tutelage in two of them (the physical ability, however, can: she could have used magic to improve her body, just as she did with her eyes). Plus, she says she's seen more girls die than she can count. If we count turning into a witch as dying, that's still only nine, which is far from being "more than I can count". If that is the case, those extra timelines would be between T3 and T4, or T4 and the current one. But on the other hand, she seemed not to be able to predict some events in the current timeline. She says she should have kept a better eye on Sayaka, despite seeing her become a witch at least one. And again when Mami's ribbons disintegrate. Regardless, even if she lived through additional timelines, there are some informations she obtained that can't be obtained simply by living that same timeline over and over again. The previous occurrences of Walpurgis, knowing the real name of Kyubey, etc. I believe she is receiving help from a different source, I posted a large theory on that a couple of pages back. divineiniquity said: Theory behind Homura's power (time stop): [...] Interesting theory, and probably the gloomiest I've seen. Though, I don't see Madoka making that witch. By now, she realizes that the life of a Puella is hell. Wishing for one of them to live forever would mean condemning her to hell for eternity. divineiniquity said: All those are acceptable. But unfortunately, I'm not seeing the last one happening. Other girls have learned the truth in the past: some of them must have attempted to argue with him, and some of them definitely with more cool and reason than Madoka. So words won't work.Last question: What happens to Kyubey? If Madoka's wish breaks the Magical Girl -> Witch cycle then Kybey would just go to the planet. End story. If it doesn't, then maybe Homura would have to dedicate her life to stopping Kyubey from contracting other girls. Or an acceptable ending is that Kyubey learns a thing called "sympathy" and stops tricking little girls into giving up their souls and simply leaves the planet to find energy elsewhere. That is, Kyubey learns the value of human life, that would be nice. Actions didn't either. Homura's desperate attempts to save Madoka had no effect on him in any timeline. Nor did Kyoko's sacrifice: in fact, he was the catalyst for it. |
"Tonight, I sit in the eye of the storm. As fire boils around me, I press forward, winds and lightning lashing my wings. I am no match for what I face. Yet I will not back down, and though fear may place it's stranglehold on my heart, courage will see me through. With tears in my eyes, I hit full throttle. My engines become an inferno, and my weapons light up, awaiting my command. If I die tonight, I will do so fighting for everything I believe in." |
ubic said: http://livedoor.2.blogimg.jp/hatima/imgs/9/4/9491bf62.png Goddamn. |
| lol @ img bbcode not working, mal is such a great site |
| Dark. Dark. Dark. DARK! Damn! It really hit home what was at stake. Madoka will kill the world and Kyubey practically says fuck it, it's our problem. Holy sh*t, that's beyond cold. I really want that thing dead now.  |
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| omg i just started watching this show a few days ago and i blasted through the first 10 episodes cause its sooo intriguing! as much as i don't want to believe it, i think that homura is going to lose to kyubey again. cause even though she knows everything, he seems too at ease with the situation. like she's killed him 2 or 3 times and she's even told madoka the truth, but you'd think that he'd get more aggressive with trying to get madoka to form the contract or something. i feel that he knows something about homura and her time ability that she hasn't figured out yet because it occurs after walpurgis which is the day that she always turns time. so that's why i think he knows something that he's not sharing or maybe he's just confident because he knows that no matter what, madoka will become a puella magi and eventually become the witch that destroys the world. although i'm curious what madoka's wishes were when she formed the contract with kyubey in the other times. i wonder if her wishes were all the same or if they were different? and i wonder if they can wish that witches and puella magis didn't exist. what would happen then? maybe that's what madoka's wish will be if she forms the contract? |
| Another week of Madoka being postponed has inspired me to make this animated gif while I anxiously await the final two episodes of this series. |
ubic said: http://livedoor.2.blogimg.jp/hatima/imgs/9/4/9491bf62.png WIN *thumbs up* |
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| Do I enjoy discussing Madoka a wee too much? I'm starting to wonder... Either way, I want those heads of yours thinking. 1- I probably missed this on ep 8 discussion, or it wasn't discussed much, but it has been drilling to my mind ever since. What exactly did Sayaka transformed into in the train? A sort of mini-witch? A "dark puella", as in, imagine her in her normal attire, but all grey, and slicing the two assholes open with her swords? I would go with the second, the first seems rather awkward and wold open too many doors, as she went back to human form afterwards. Still, the fact that she undergoes a sort of dark transformation, and reverting back to human afterwards, is confusing, to say the very least. 2- Did you noticed anything different between Homura's Kyubey-hunting in ep 10 and her attempt to kill him in ep 8? I'll give you a second to think. He didn't eat himself. Admittedly, we never really knew why exactly did he do that (hell, I doubt a regular human being can even have a decent theory on that), but the main line of though was that it was to retrieve the used Grief Seeds inside him. Now, it's not like he has a whole lot of time to do that, specially with Homura hot on his tail, but if that was the reason for him eating himself, then it doesn't make sense. Then again, why would he run? If he has infinite bodies... There are only two options here: - Either he doesn't have infinite bodies - Or he was running to gain Madoka's help and sympathy. Makes sense, but for the looks of it, the chase was a lengthy one. If the purpose was to fall in Madoka's good graces, couldn't he simply have done it in the last second, before he was found? 3- This was a questnion I've asked a few times in ep 9 and 10's discussion, with no answer. It's quite understandable given what kind of question it is... There is still one matter to attend before the battle with Walpurgis, probably in ep 11. Sayaka's body. They must... dispose of it. Kyoko was tasked to do it, but obviously she can't do it now... I am almost sure they are planning an extremely emotional scene, not that it couldn't be one either way they did it. Madoka burying Sayaka's body would probably be the extreme of that. And honestly I don't know what outcome would come of that, either go full-blown emo (please, no), going insane MADoka (acceptable), or (finally) crying all of her tears out, and come of the event with the same determined eyes we see in the OP (please, Ep 10 wasn't enough for me, I need to seem more of badass Madoka). And don't interpret me wrong, it's not I want it to happen, in fact, some of you might know Sayaka's my favorite character. I am just thinking on the emotional and visual effect it will give to the next episode. And finally... 4- There was some discussion of this after ep 9, but no one was able to reach a conclusion. This is when they're talking to Madoka in the train station. Notice their relative positions. Homura is standing beside Kyoko. Therefore, the following can't be from being behind her. Then, she shows her Soul Gem to Madoka. For some reason, Sayaka's body starts to glow purple, and with a clear, magical sound synchronized in the background. (sorry for low quality, for some stupid reason I can't take screenshots from MPC, had to take from a stream) Then, later in the episode, Kyoko tried to do the same, to keep her body warm. It has no effect. Now, why the hell would this happen? I have two ideas: - Homura has a special power having something to do with the dead. She probably doesn't know about: if you look at the scene, not her, nor Kyoko or Sayaka make any notice of it: in fact, neither of the girls seem to realized what even happened. What would be the nature of that power? I have no idea... - "Meh" theory: Soul Gems, being, well, a soul, react to other bodies without a soul, like Sayaka's, while they are still warm. Hence why it didn't work with Kyoko. However, there is a flaw: her body is effectively dead, and wouldn't have a soul anyway. Kyubey says in an earlier episode that a human's soul is lost for good if the body dies. None of those is a strong hypothesis, though. I am absolutely baffle by this. As always, if you could give it from fresh ideas, I'd be happy :) |
BrickBreakMar 21, 2011 5:47 PM
"Tonight, I sit in the eye of the storm. As fire boils around me, I press forward, winds and lightning lashing my wings. I am no match for what I face. Yet I will not back down, and though fear may place it's stranglehold on my heart, courage will see me through. With tears in my eyes, I hit full throttle. My engines become an inferno, and my weapons light up, awaiting my command. If I die tonight, I will do so fighting for everything I believe in." |
BrickBreak said: I think Homura and the "witch shock therapy" she received (while human) is what's keeping her from being strong-willed. Let's face it, both of those are pretty intimidating. Without her, there wouldn't have been such a strong personality pressing on her, nor she would have to face the horrors of witches while being a mere human, and her strong personality would have been able to blossom. But compare Homu's 1st time meeting Madoka at school with the same scene in ep 1. In Homu's initial timeline, Madoka goes to meet her, is being friendly etc. In ep 1 she hides behind Sayaka the moment Homura looks at her. Maybe it's a side-effect from that dream, but she's a lot more timid, and she hasn't seen a real witch yet at that time. BrickBreak said: But why Madoka's power increasing overtime? 1- Her wish changes 2- Her power carries on between Madokas in each timeline, somehow. Here, the why is the question. - Is Homura's increased strengths having an effect on Madoka's power? - It's part of her "god-like" powers? - ...QB? While I do think that her wish has an impact of her abilities, I've been wondering about the potential QB sees in her for a long time. Especially as she doesn't appear to be all that special in Homu's initial timeline (and it's a pity QB doesn't say anything about her potential in that part). QB himself in the series' timeline can't answer the question why she is so special, but it seems like it's something that grows along the way. I don't think her will to protect others wavers, so that's not it. Less confidence, more potential? *b. the entire timeloop is the thing that delivers the energy. [..]* BrickBreak said: Well maybe if QB has higher-ups.I can see this happening, but not with that many additions from their part. Someone (forgot by who, sorry) commented after seeing ep 8 about the relationshipo between entropy and time-travel. If I understand correctly, increase of entropy makes time move forward, so continuous going back in time would decrease entropy (correct me if I'm wrong, physics isn't my field). The cold-hearted nature of that plan would fit nicely, but yeah, it would have taken effort to set it up. BrickBreak said: divineiniquity said: I was to firstly point out that Homura's wish is quite ambiguous. "I want to protect Madoka, instead of her protecting me."[ ] So far she has failed to save Madoka from dying or from becoming a wtich. So if "protecting" Madoka means saving her from death and corruption, one possible ending is that Madoka doesn't die or become a witch. [Speculation] But if Homura relaxes her condition for "protecting" Madoka (like maybe she just protected Madoka's feelings/purity, or their friendship - something as dull as that) But can she do it? It's possible ("Repeat.") that she is in control of the time loops, and can, at the end of each, choose to go back or not. But it's just as likely that the condition for "saving" Madoka was set when the wish was made. If that is the case, then it must mean absolute salvation: neither death nor turning into a witch broke the cycle. 1. Homura not only made her wish to protect Madoka, she also made the promise to safe her from QB's trickery. When she lectured Madoka about Sayaka not being her (Madoka's) responsibility, I think it implied that Homura thinks she herself has the responibility to safe Madoka from contracting. Ofcourse the situation in the series timeline has changed: Madoka is aware of the implications, so if she contracts now, she won't be 'tricked' by QB. If Madoka learns the complete story from Homura, she can release Homura from that promise. 2. Homura spent I don't know how many timeloops trying to protect Madoka from death/turning witch. It would be completely out of character for her to suddenly change her mind, especially as we've seen how determined she becomes in those later timelines. 3. Not very outstanding, but there's this thing about gaining happiness when a wish is granted (and than it's time to die). I can't see that happening when if she relaxes her wish. Also: protect her feelings/purity - by telling her what a harh worl it is?, or their friendship - what friendship? It's clear she stepped away from being friends along the way. 4. Can she do it? I don't think so, because QB reads minds before contracting and 'grants' that wish. It's very unlikely she can change it along the way. BrickBreak said: Regardless, even if she lived through additional timelines, there are some informations she obtained that can't be obtained simply by living that same timeline over and over again. The previous occurrences of Walpurgis, knowing the real name of Kyubey, etc. I believe she is receiving help from a different source, I posted a large theory on that a couple of pages back. We've seen her use her pc to gain information. She could've done several loops just to gain info, steal books (once she knows where to find them, it's a piece of cake in the next loops). Maybe she questioned QB at the end of some loops. Once he's got his quota, why wouldn't he tell her how the system works? divineiniquity said: Theory behind Homura's power (time stop): [Speculation] In light of the above, Walpurgis Night can still be Homura (from the future). But maybe Homura only turns in Walpurgis Night after infinitely trying to save Madoka every time and failing to do so, but in the process becoming stronger herself. The other theory was that Homura gets stronger with each time reset, so eventually she'll become strong enough to become Walpurgis Night. But Homura doesn't get stronger. She gains experience in handling weapons etc., but her timestop abilities and weapons are completely ineffective against Walurga. It's Madoka who gains power. BrickBreak said: divineiniquity said: As for Madoka's wish, it might be something as simple as "I want Homura to live on forever" Interesting theory, and probably the gloomiest I've seen. Though, I don't see Madoka making that witch. By now, she realizes that the life of a Puella is hell. Wishing for one of them to live forever would mean condemning her to hell for eternity. I agree. That would be a curse instead of a wish. It would be interesting to see if it'll turn her instantaneously into a witch. divineiniquity said: Last question: What happens to Kyubey? Kyubey learns the value of human life, that would be nice. I'm almost certain UroGen & Shaft won't turn QB into a nice guy in the end. Or maybe in 1 timeline, but it's Madoka's wish, she turns into a witch, Homura resets, next timeline QB is himself again. sugarandspazz said: No way he's gonna grant that, but he'll probably tell Madoka shecan make that happen once she's a magical girl.and i wonder if they can wish that witches and puella magis didn't exist. what would happen then? maybe that's what madoka's wish will be if she forms the contract? BrickBreak said: What exactly did Sayaka transformed into in the train? A sort of mini-witch? A "dark puella"[ ] Still, the fact that she undergoes a sort of dark transformation, and reverting back to human afterwards, is confusing, to say the very least. I go for dark puella as well. I think she tried to transform into MG-mode, but there wasn't enough magic left for that. Therefore I'm not completely sure if she killed those guys. If she had, she would've turned into a witch immediately. (It's different in the manga, but we know that's not conclusive). BrickBreak said: Consider this: if there had been griefseeds remaining in his dead body, why didn't Homura take them out before the new QB had the chance to eat them?2- Did you noticed anything different between Homura's Kyubey-hunting in ep 10 and her attempt to kill him in ep 8?[ ]He didn't eat himself. [ ] the main line of though was that it was to retrieve the used Grief Seeds inside him. Now, it's not like he has a whole lot of time to do that, specially with Homura hot on his tail, but if that was the reason for him eating himself, then it doesn't make sense. I think him eating himself is symbolism for this: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouroboros "The Ouroboros often represents self-reflexivity or cyclicality, especially in the sense of something constantly re-creating itself, the eternal return, and other things perceived as cycles that begin anew as soon as they end (compare with phoenix). It can also represent the idea of primordial unity related to something existing in or persisting before any beginning with such force or qualities it cannot be extinguished. BrickBreak said: From the looks of it, Homura was chasing him on a different level from where Madoka was, as QB came crashing through the ceiling. So maybe staying put wasn't an option. Also because Homura would blast him away before he couldn't finish calling out to her. He did call it annoying having to come up with a new QB.Then again, why would he run? If he has infinite bodies... - Or he was running to gain Madoka's help and sympathy. Makes sense, but for the looks of it, the chase was a lengthy one. If the purpose was to fall in Madoka's good graces, couldn't he simply have done it in the last second, before he was found? BrickBreak said: 3- Sayaka's body. They must... dispose of it. Yep. Maybe Madoka has to tell her family :P And I'm still in for the possibilty that Hitomi talked with Kamiyou about Sayaka or that Kamiyou rejected Hitomi because he had feelings for Sayaka. Having Madoka cry at her grave woyuld be sad, having Kamiyou crying and saying he loved her would be the utmost cruelty. BrickBreak said: 4- There was some discussion of this after ep 9, but no one was able to reach a conclusion. Yeah, we've been over this. I think it's one of these: 1. Homura was further behind Kyouko (I posted a screen earlier), as the glow seems to be behind Sayaka's body. Shaft fucked up. Fresh ideas: 2. Homura used her time-stop, to stop what usually happens with dead bodies. (but it doesn't make sense to do that for just a minute or so) 3. Her emotions made her soulgem flare up. She was trying to get through to Madoka at that point, hoping she would realise that contracting would be biggest mistake, and ofcourse hoping this time she'd finally reach her goal. Stressing her point by making the soulgem shine brighter, trying to make clear that the soulgem isn't just a cute accessory. |
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