Attack on Titan
Reply to Odabrani
Before anyone comes here and starts making baseless assumptions about ending haters, here's what's hated.
Massive alliance plot armor, Hundreds of titans + titan shifters did nothing to the Alliance, Marvel-type fight with no stakes unlike early seasons fights, sudden shift against the island, Eren motivation retcons, Eren character assassination, crying about mikasa while murdering billions, Eren being made into a tragic hero, Eren not knowing why he killed 80% of the world, Mikasa suddenly being the key character for the plot (Ymir bullshit), Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by Armin a few seconds later, Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by the fandom a few seconds later, Eren apparently lying in his previous monologues, Eren let them win, Worm being the big baddie and just disappearing cuz why not, Jean and Connie die only to get instantly revived, Zeke dying = Rumbling stops for some reason, Kruger fighting against Eren, Colossal Eren, overdone symbolism, Falco conveniently being able to fly and being an expert at it (when Eren and other shifters had entire arcs dedicated to learning titan stuff), Reiner sniffing letter, Annie not getting any consequences at all, Annie and Pieck crying for Eren, Armin being the Messiah, the rest of the world not killing Armin and his friends, Armin convincing Zeke to kill himself after he showed him Leaf, Mikasa carrying Eren's rotting head and using Moses powers to cross the ocean, Mikasa decapitating Eren then kissing the head, Ymir loved Fritz, Only Ymir Knows being the explanation for any question, climax battle with nobody except Eren dying, Paradis Island letting Avengers go back to the island, Mikasa thinking about Eren even after getting married, having children and grandchildren (poor husband), awful romance, 9/11 reference, Paradis gets bombed => Floch was right, sending the message that if you are gonna start a genocide, make sure you complete it fully (no half measures), "cycle of hatred" message that is overdone in media, Titans arent eradicated
And I feel like there's more.
Massive alliance plot armor, Hundreds of titans + titan shifters did nothing to the Alliance, Marvel-type fight with no stakes unlike early seasons fights, sudden shift against the island, Eren motivation retcons, Eren character assassination, crying about mikasa while murdering billions, Eren being made into a tragic hero, Eren not knowing why he killed 80% of the world, Mikasa suddenly being the key character for the plot (Ymir bullshit), Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by Armin a few seconds later, Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by the fandom a few seconds later, Eren apparently lying in his previous monologues, Eren let them win, Worm being the big baddie and just disappearing cuz why not, Jean and Connie die only to get instantly revived, Zeke dying = Rumbling stops for some reason, Kruger fighting against Eren, Colossal Eren, overdone symbolism, Falco conveniently being able to fly and being an expert at it (when Eren and other shifters had entire arcs dedicated to learning titan stuff), Reiner sniffing letter, Annie not getting any consequences at all, Annie and Pieck crying for Eren, Armin being the Messiah, the rest of the world not killing Armin and his friends, Armin convincing Zeke to kill himself after he showed him Leaf, Mikasa carrying Eren's rotting head and using Moses powers to cross the ocean, Mikasa decapitating Eren then kissing the head, Ymir loved Fritz, Only Ymir Knows being the explanation for any question, climax battle with nobody except Eren dying, Paradis Island letting Avengers go back to the island, Mikasa thinking about Eren even after getting married, having children and grandchildren (poor husband), awful romance, 9/11 reference, Paradis gets bombed => Floch was right, sending the message that if you are gonna start a genocide, make sure you complete it fully (no half measures), "cycle of hatred" message that is overdone in media, Titans arent eradicated
And I feel like there's more.
| @MugiwaraJopa Pretty much this. I can confirm that all topics you have listed were mentioned in various civil discussions about the ending. By civil discussions I mean just folks sharing their thoughts in a polite way, without trying to "win the debate" by barking at each other and going with tribalism mentality of "ending haters vs. ending lovers". Sadly, I also remember that those elements were often put aside by loud haters having to seethe about their ship not becoming canon, and that their headcanon didn't become real in the end. Or that their favorite shounen manga didn't suddenly become opus magnum of the seinen genre, as they wanted it to be (or rather: saw it as such). That's why it was better to just discuss them with people you knew and their friends. By that, you could freely and peacefully say what you liked and disliked. That's how it was shortly after ch. 139 was released in its original version, anyway. |
AdnashNov 6, 2023 12:24 AM
Reply to Farabeuf
Everything is so black and white this days. MAL is no exception, people now either give things they like a 10 or what they hate a 2 with little in between.
You have to differentiate between legitimate criticism and "hate". People pointing out flaws in the plot/story or being argumentative about certain characters isn't hating.
You have to differentiate between legitimate criticism and "hate". People pointing out flaws in the plot/story or being argumentative about certain characters isn't hating.
| @Farabeuf Agreed. It's a sad sight, but it seems that a lot of people like that way of discourse (if such attitude can be called as such). It's basically tribalism, just in anime form. It's surely easier for many people to group themselves into extreme sides (like "people who love something" vs. "people who hate something"), but definitely it's not a productive way to have a nice chatting or to simply share your thoughts on anything. |
Rafiikii said: Okey, it seems like people have assumed weird stuff to why people dont like the ending or in my case post basement. I hate the fact that AoT borrows upon real life anti-semetism, but at the same time twists it into some form of justification because of the 2000 year old sin. But in our world, this is a dogwhistle that is based on a myth, in AoT it comes off as "The Jews had it coming" because there it is the actual history. Second part I hated is the fact that AoT put so much effort into being a political show that focuses on themes like nationalism and hate only to have the whole story be something Eren manipulated when touched royalty. It cheapened allot of things for me and made the story go into something that wasn't as engaging. If you wonder why people hated the ending, try finding the original final chapter and I kid you not, Armin in his conversation with Eren is passive and then thanks him. Btw, don't interpret this as me thinking that people that enjoy AoT are far-right dumbasses. It's just me not liking that aspect and it ruined allot of the story for me. I had to stop reading after the first point because it’s such an odd point to make considering the current events. The “genocided also do genocide” is a valid plot device. Isayama smarter than the average manga/anime fan gives him credit for. |
Reply to Odabrani
Before anyone comes here and starts making baseless assumptions about ending haters, here's what's hated.
Massive alliance plot armor, Hundreds of titans + titan shifters did nothing to the Alliance, Marvel-type fight with no stakes unlike early seasons fights, sudden shift against the island, Eren motivation retcons, Eren character assassination, crying about mikasa while murdering billions, Eren being made into a tragic hero, Eren not knowing why he killed 80% of the world, Mikasa suddenly being the key character for the plot (Ymir bullshit), Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by Armin a few seconds later, Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by the fandom a few seconds later, Eren apparently lying in his previous monologues, Eren let them win, Worm being the big baddie and just disappearing cuz why not, Jean and Connie die only to get instantly revived, Zeke dying = Rumbling stops for some reason, Kruger fighting against Eren, Colossal Eren, overdone symbolism, Falco conveniently being able to fly and being an expert at it (when Eren and other shifters had entire arcs dedicated to learning titan stuff), Reiner sniffing letter, Annie not getting any consequences at all, Annie and Pieck crying for Eren, Armin being the Messiah, the rest of the world not killing Armin and his friends, Armin convincing Zeke to kill himself after he showed him Leaf, Mikasa carrying Eren's rotting head and using Moses powers to cross the ocean, Mikasa decapitating Eren then kissing the head, Ymir loved Fritz, Only Ymir Knows being the explanation for any question, climax battle with nobody except Eren dying, Paradis Island letting Avengers go back to the island, Mikasa thinking about Eren even after getting married, having children and grandchildren (poor husband), awful romance, 9/11 reference, Paradis gets bombed => Floch was right, sending the message that if you are gonna start a genocide, make sure you complete it fully (no half measures), "cycle of hatred" message that is overdone in media, Titans arent eradicated
And I feel like there's more.
Massive alliance plot armor, Hundreds of titans + titan shifters did nothing to the Alliance, Marvel-type fight with no stakes unlike early seasons fights, sudden shift against the island, Eren motivation retcons, Eren character assassination, crying about mikasa while murdering billions, Eren being made into a tragic hero, Eren not knowing why he killed 80% of the world, Mikasa suddenly being the key character for the plot (Ymir bullshit), Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by Armin a few seconds later, Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by the fandom a few seconds later, Eren apparently lying in his previous monologues, Eren let them win, Worm being the big baddie and just disappearing cuz why not, Jean and Connie die only to get instantly revived, Zeke dying = Rumbling stops for some reason, Kruger fighting against Eren, Colossal Eren, overdone symbolism, Falco conveniently being able to fly and being an expert at it (when Eren and other shifters had entire arcs dedicated to learning titan stuff), Reiner sniffing letter, Annie not getting any consequences at all, Annie and Pieck crying for Eren, Armin being the Messiah, the rest of the world not killing Armin and his friends, Armin convincing Zeke to kill himself after he showed him Leaf, Mikasa carrying Eren's rotting head and using Moses powers to cross the ocean, Mikasa decapitating Eren then kissing the head, Ymir loved Fritz, Only Ymir Knows being the explanation for any question, climax battle with nobody except Eren dying, Paradis Island letting Avengers go back to the island, Mikasa thinking about Eren even after getting married, having children and grandchildren (poor husband), awful romance, 9/11 reference, Paradis gets bombed => Floch was right, sending the message that if you are gonna start a genocide, make sure you complete it fully (no half measures), "cycle of hatred" message that is overdone in media, Titans arent eradicated
And I feel like there's more.
| @MugiwaraJopa That's actually an amazing summary of what is bad. |
DegenerateRed said: For me personally, I will say, I really liked the ending and thought it wrapped up everything in a great way. I’m just curious as a non manga reader. Maybe manga readers are more picky, could also be that the added production in animation added to the ending being seen as better. Personally I dont think the ending was very good, but I do think manga readers exaggerated how bad it was. Really the whole Alliance arc in general was kind of a mess, but it didnt ruin the series for me |
| ⚠ This user has received numerous reports of abuse and harassment. Please report any guideline violations to MAL staff. |
| Some people already discussed these points but for me personally, the ending in the manga felt like it invalidated everything we had gone through. Character personalities completely changed on a whim. Actions that had taken place over so long had been rendered useless. It all felt so abrupt. After taking my time analyzing everything and watching some YouTube video called "This video will change how you see Eren" that was released shortly after the manga ending, my view of the ending changed a lot, but I still felt it was a bit rushed in some aspects. Watching the anime episode now, I feel this all completely changed. There were a lot of dialogue changes that happened since the first special that improved massively on the characters and made it feel like the character personalities didn't just stop making sense, in fact they now made even more sense. It also felt like the underlying message about freedom, fate, and human nature being stuck in an endless cycle of war, has become way more apparent. At the end, it felt like this really is the perfect ending the series could get compared to how it felt in the manga. Also this might be severely undermined by most people but imho, the OST playing the entire episode improved on the episode MASSIVELY that it made even the calmest of moments feel more impactful. Overall, I'd say the real issue was that Isayama simply failed to properly convey what he really wanted when he was making the ending in the manga, but through minor dialogue changes in addition to things that are exclusive to anime form (like animation and music), the ending felt so much better and actually felt like it conveyed what Isayama really wanted to tell properly this time. Also maybe I'm affected by the video too who knows. |
| They hated that Eren and, by extension, the author, wasn't actually endorsing their red pill, neo nazi ideology like they thought back during the final season. This is why I think they should have just aired the final season all in one go, because you let fascists get their hooks into something and they will assume their views matter |
Reply to LucisCael
@MugiwaraJopa Most of the things you wrote are not actual criticism though, it's just nitpicking, like Eren crying... that was very realistic and expected for him to do, you just didn't like the fact that Eren isn't an edgelord. I'm not saying that everything you said is wrong, but so many things you said are just either biased or very minor things that are overhated for no reason.
| @LucisCael That's a big assumption. I didn't like the fact that Eren isn't an edgelord? Do you think I hated when Eren cried during season 1? At traitor reveal? At the end of the second season? Throughout most of season 3? Do you think I hated when Eren cried in front of Ramzi? Not at all. The ending makes Eren's character really inconsistent, and it's not about him crying. |
OdabraniNov 7, 2023 11:34 AM
 |
Reply to Adnash
@MugiwaraJopa Pretty much this. I can confirm that all topics you have listed were mentioned in various civil discussions about the ending. By civil discussions I mean just folks sharing their thoughts in a polite way, without trying to "win the debate" by barking at each other and going with tribalism mentality of "ending haters vs. ending lovers".
Sadly, I also remember that those elements were often put aside by loud haters having to seethe about their ship not becoming canon, and that their headcanon didn't become real in the end. Or that their favorite shounen manga didn't suddenly become opus magnum of the seinen genre, as they wanted it to be (or rather: saw it as such). That's why it was better to just discuss them with people you knew and their friends. By that, you could freely and peacefully say what you liked and disliked.
That's how it was shortly after ch. 139 was released in its original version, anyway.
Sadly, I also remember that those elements were often put aside by loud haters having to seethe about their ship not becoming canon, and that their headcanon didn't become real in the end. Or that their favorite shounen manga didn't suddenly become opus magnum of the seinen genre, as they wanted it to be (or rather: saw it as such). That's why it was better to just discuss them with people you knew and their friends. By that, you could freely and peacefully say what you liked and disliked.
That's how it was shortly after ch. 139 was released in its original version, anyway.
| @Adnash The era of civil AoT criticism is long dead, so thank you for the civil reply. :) |
|
Reply to VMPL
@MugiwaraJopa Well said!
XxAtaraxiaxX said: Weird how the Mikasa fans are not disappointed about her heritage.This guy nailed it^^ also the historia child buildup being shafted and Mikasa’s heritage meant nothing in the long run watsym said: But then, Kiyomi wouldn't have her "sacrifice" moment! Who cares about logic!@MugiwaraJopa Falco sinking the ship was also quite stupid. Could of taken 2 minutes to transform from a life boat. They even knew the risk and warned beforehand postblitz said: Oh but he is just a poor 19 year old boy, it's realistic! (he manipulated his own dad and brother, infiltrated a military force, tactically aquired the founding titan, "freed" an eternal slave, led a citywide assault on the enemy lines)@MugiwaraJopa solid list Eren has the most consistent personality and character growth right up until the final part of the story for no discernible reason. He has no reason to annihilate every living being on the planet - nevermind the ecological devastation ensuring a global extinction event - and his desire for freedom is handily fulfilled by simply taking out major military and political centers. Considering he managed to sneak into the largest empire's capital undetected and just wasted months of his life living there he would more than easily perform adequately in this regard. The hatred for Eldians was mostly propaganda and military strongarming as displayed by the Eldian crew (Eren included) happily spending time in gypsy and arab villages or discussing diplomacy with factions other than Marley. And it all boils down to "I'm stupid", "if i kill everyone there do i win?" not to mention the idiotic Mikasa angle which again baffles the mind considering the entire show up until this point. To portray him as a cuck out of the blue is like watching a toy bird have a screw loose and screaming emo rock instead of peaceful chirping. Schizoid writing right at the end when it mattered the most. CUM_enjoyer said: It's really a shame, that plotline could've been monumental. Careful, they'll reduce your criticism to "YOU JUST HATE THAT YOUR SHIP DIDN'T BECOME TRUE!!!" I will also quote this post because it has many of the points that really irritated me with the ending, and still do. The plot ignores many plotlines and just disregards previously mentioned info. Literally anything with Historia after the time skip was pointless. They showed her many times, especially in the manga, interacting with eren and dripfeeding us little tidbits as though her pregnancy was important, and for some reason she asked Eren how he would feel if she were to have a child. Which is a very strange question to ask out of a guy who has literally NOTHING to do with the pregnancy and has no bearing on anything that happens afterwards. Lets say that conversation happened between them, okay, why show us the readers that they talked about this if it had absolutely nothing to do with the plot? I mean just read Mugi's post, he covers everything very well. Plenty of shit to hate in the ending. The writing goes schizophrenic. LordSozin said: @MugiwaraJopa. I want everyone to read this! dxtremecaliber said: yall read this^ cuz its about being an edgy bs its about its inconsistency of the plot WillKamio said: @MugiwaraJopa Chad NytroYT said: @MugiwaraJopa perfect explanation! Thank you for having brain cells! avishaimiller said: Thank God there are still people with critical thinking in this fandom !! You said it all. VMPL said: @MugiwaraJopa Well said! Bless u guys. |
OdabraniNov 7, 2023 11:35 AM
|
Reply to Odabrani
Before anyone comes here and starts making baseless assumptions about ending haters, here's what's hated.
Massive alliance plot armor, Hundreds of titans + titan shifters did nothing to the Alliance, Marvel-type fight with no stakes unlike early seasons fights, sudden shift against the island, Eren motivation retcons, Eren character assassination, crying about mikasa while murdering billions, Eren being made into a tragic hero, Eren not knowing why he killed 80% of the world, Mikasa suddenly being the key character for the plot (Ymir bullshit), Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by Armin a few seconds later, Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by the fandom a few seconds later, Eren apparently lying in his previous monologues, Eren let them win, Worm being the big baddie and just disappearing cuz why not, Jean and Connie die only to get instantly revived, Zeke dying = Rumbling stops for some reason, Kruger fighting against Eren, Colossal Eren, overdone symbolism, Falco conveniently being able to fly and being an expert at it (when Eren and other shifters had entire arcs dedicated to learning titan stuff), Reiner sniffing letter, Annie not getting any consequences at all, Annie and Pieck crying for Eren, Armin being the Messiah, the rest of the world not killing Armin and his friends, Armin convincing Zeke to kill himself after he showed him Leaf, Mikasa carrying Eren's rotting head and using Moses powers to cross the ocean, Mikasa decapitating Eren then kissing the head, Ymir loved Fritz, Only Ymir Knows being the explanation for any question, climax battle with nobody except Eren dying, Paradis Island letting Avengers go back to the island, Mikasa thinking about Eren even after getting married, having children and grandchildren (poor husband), awful romance, 9/11 reference, Paradis gets bombed => Floch was right, sending the message that if you are gonna start a genocide, make sure you complete it fully (no half measures), "cycle of hatred" message that is overdone in media, Titans arent eradicated
And I feel like there's more.
Massive alliance plot armor, Hundreds of titans + titan shifters did nothing to the Alliance, Marvel-type fight with no stakes unlike early seasons fights, sudden shift against the island, Eren motivation retcons, Eren character assassination, crying about mikasa while murdering billions, Eren being made into a tragic hero, Eren not knowing why he killed 80% of the world, Mikasa suddenly being the key character for the plot (Ymir bullshit), Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by Armin a few seconds later, Eren killing his own mother being brushed away by the fandom a few seconds later, Eren apparently lying in his previous monologues, Eren let them win, Worm being the big baddie and just disappearing cuz why not, Jean and Connie die only to get instantly revived, Zeke dying = Rumbling stops for some reason, Kruger fighting against Eren, Colossal Eren, overdone symbolism, Falco conveniently being able to fly and being an expert at it (when Eren and other shifters had entire arcs dedicated to learning titan stuff), Reiner sniffing letter, Annie not getting any consequences at all, Annie and Pieck crying for Eren, Armin being the Messiah, the rest of the world not killing Armin and his friends, Armin convincing Zeke to kill himself after he showed him Leaf, Mikasa carrying Eren's rotting head and using Moses powers to cross the ocean, Mikasa decapitating Eren then kissing the head, Ymir loved Fritz, Only Ymir Knows being the explanation for any question, climax battle with nobody except Eren dying, Paradis Island letting Avengers go back to the island, Mikasa thinking about Eren even after getting married, having children and grandchildren (poor husband), awful romance, 9/11 reference, Paradis gets bombed => Floch was right, sending the message that if you are gonna start a genocide, make sure you complete it fully (no half measures), "cycle of hatred" message that is overdone in media, Titans arent eradicated
And I feel like there's more.
| @MugiwaraJopa Cook 'em. The thing that left the most caustic taste in my mouth after reading the ending was Isayama trying to parallel King Fritz with Eren for the sake of his stockholm syndrome "It was Mikasa" bs that recontextualized Eren's determinism for the worse (he has no free will because Ymir loves her slave-owner womp womp). I can totally see the parallels between the pedo slave-owning rapist who waged wars against the world for conquest and Eren "If someone is willing to take my freedom, I won't hesitate to take theirs" Yeager who acted in retaliation in order to defend his homeland from an impending doom under the might of the rest of the world (or so we thought). Ymir's stockholm syndrome with her slaver is totally a parallel to Mikasa's infatuation with a boy who literally saved her from slavers. It's almost as if Yams was writing Eren as the antithesis to King Fritz and setting him up to be the one who will finally destroy the generational cycle. He even "freed" Ymir in the Paths. But all that got scrapped last minute. Genuinely disgusting twist. It feels like Isayama grew to loathe Eren's post-timeskip character, so he retconned and humiliated him for the finale. |
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