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I haven't watched a lot of idol anime myself. But, I really like Idolmaster (because I've played and enjoyed the videogame) because it reminded me a lot of Strike Witches. It's a group effort to come to a final goal together, forging bonds of friendship on the way there, understanding other people's pains and worries. This is why I think it's not too far-fetched to connect the World Witches with idol topics. I mean, remember the first Eila and Sanya center episode of season one, that was basically about music connecting everybody from one point in the world to the other. Connecting this to the idea of troop support through music in times of war to boost morale, I think you have a solid concept for a Witches show.

Well, I wouldn't dismiss the World Witches concept as silly sexy adventures completely. I feel like the true appeal, to me at least, is in the title of the whole franchise. It's not the Witches of Japan, America, France etc, it's the World Witches. What really always, whenever I watch it, gets to me is the fact that they use one of the most terrible wars in human history as a backdrop to a story about an international group of youths who work together and break boundaries to unite humanity. All the characters in the original Strike Witches team represent a cultural aspect of their respective culture and they all learn to accept each other, build strong bonds of friendship and love in times of war. While the older military people (all the elder men in uniforms that pop up from time to time to give them orders) represent the old ways of cultural divide which leads humans to hate and fight each other, the young Witches represent the hope for a brighter future. What better message could you get from a light-hearted adventure show?

Thank you for the message. It was very thorough and well informed. Feminism in anime is always a debated situation for its sexualized content. It's pretty much inevitable but I wanted to voice my opinion.

HSOTD has been nagging me for a long time. I've been unsuccessfully trying to come back to it for four times now, I think. Two times the anime series and two times the manga. And that is because I really REALLY like the art style. It has such a great dynamic, sexy and individual flair to it. Looking at any picture done by the artist Satou Shouji, you immediately recognize his style! His cancelled manga Fire Fire Fire or the anime and manga series Triage X were a blast to read and see, I must say.
And so I thought "HSOTD" is his most well-known piece of work, you have to go back and finish it! And every time I tried I was so put off by the terrible sexism and the terrible admiration the author has for his macho jerk protagonist. It's unbearable for me! I don't know if the whole gender thing is done on purpose or just reflects the underlying attitude the author (who in HSOTD is not the artist) has towards women. In any way, it goes beyond the "let's have a survival adventure with sexy girls!" and goes into the realm of "let's have all the sexy girls obey my will!". Definitely not healthy.
And, as you already pointed out, the fanservice and the sexualization of characters is not a part of that. Looking at your other example, the Strike Witches, the mistake of mixing up sexualization of characters and sexism is made pretty clear. Sure the female protagonists of that franchise don't wear pants during combat and you see them naked in the bath from time to time, but that doesn't keep these characters from developing into fleshed out, very loveable people whose friendship develops in genuine ways and really makes you feel a real emotional connection to the 501st joint fighter wing strike force. They are all individual characters who have their own hopes, fears and powerful moments, from which the fanservice takes away nothing. :)
That being said, I haven't seen Brave Witches, yet. It is as good as the rest of the franchise, I hope?

Yeah, it's exactly my point.

Thank you for understanding my post.

Hey there, has been like two years since I've seen you around. I honestly, didn't watch Vivid Strike. Too much regression for my tastes, and lack of a Fate sealed the deal. She's still my favorite no doubt, but Rem is quite magnificent in her own right...Would suggest you give that anime a try.

thanks! :)
a lot of people don't want to accept that. maybe because it changes their perspective on typical entertainment action where we don't want to think about our hero's inner conflicts or faults because we don't want them to have any. they'd rather see shinji as a wimpy douchebag than accept the actual humanity in his ways because it would deconstruct their idols.
I guess the truth is that it can be both ways. The idea behind Eva is just to make you aware of where the escapist entertainment starts and where realistic depiction ends. Both forms of narrative can be fascinating, as long as we can still identify the difference between the two. I'm usually struggling with stories that get the two muddled and end up somewhere inbetween with being neither the one nor the other thing really.

I wrote out a much longer reply, but it ended up getting deleted accidentally, which is probably for the better, because my stance since has become more compromising. I think the problem here is that we are essentially making two different arguments. You think good characters are those that serve within the context of the story and I believe good characters are those that are worthy of admiration. I don't think these are mutually exclusive arguments though. Surely if a character is a Mary or Gary Stu character that can do no wrong and is constantly the answer to every problem that arises within a story, they are badly written. A lot of the backlash regarding the most recent Star Wars movie

Flaws make characters realistic and grounded, but it's not the flaws that people end up praising, but rather the ability to overcome those flaws. We don’t like characters because, of their flaws but in spite of them. Characters do not need to be perfect to be worthy of admiration, in fact it usually detracts from the audience being able to relate to the character. Even seemingly perfect characters that always solve the problem like Onizuka from GTO or Kintaro from Golden are flawed by being huge perverts and seen as "deviants" and "outcasts".

My original response largely had to do with the understanding of the alpha/beta paradigm and a detailed explanation on why characters characterized as beta were largely looked down upon. It did not address the ambiguity of a character's actions and what would be expected in a real world situation. Fiction and anime in particular is largely escapist in nature. It is not necessarily always trying to portray reality. It instead caters to the perspective and expectations of the viewer. It's reasonable to say that people want to be inspired and uplifted by the media they consume instead of always striving for the most realistic take. I can't say that this is necessarily a good or bad thing, but it goes without saying that if the main character is unable to overcome his perceived weaknesses and turn them into strengths, such as being cautionary or being mischievous or cunning/underhanded, which are usually seen as negative traits, but if applied correctly can lead to popular characters like Lelouche and Light Yagami. Although this kind of stray away from the whole “alpha/beta” paradigm.

A lot of what you are arguing seems to be from the perspective of "everyone is perfect just the way they are and should never strive for more". When you're sympathizing with characters for being similar to who you already are, you are essentially looking down on them and relating you are simply being content with the status quo that has already been established and not advocating for any change. When you admire a character, you are looking up to them, admiring the traits that they have, the feats that they have accomplished. Constant improvement, constant change, always striving for more, never being satisfied. There is always someone that is going to be better than you, stronger than you, smarter than you, faster bigger etc. Always someone worth looking up to. There will always be goals to reach so you should never stop looking up and trying to reach them. “Good” characters should be catalysts to inspire you and drive you forward for your betterment and advancement because of their strengths. Instead of making you sympathize with their shortcomings and bringing you down.

As for the plague stuff in Berserk, they actually do touch on it, in the manga along with the Inquisition (Witch hunts). It's in the "black swordsman" arc following right after the golden age. Should actually be getting an anime adaptation this year. I imagine they'll have to censor some of the more graphic and brutal stuff though. As much as I love the manga stuff Berserk's heart lies with it's main characters. It's ironic how Guts is the key to allowing Griffith to achieve his dream, but in turn it helped Guts to develop his own dream and leave the group. It's unfortunate Caska didn't play a bigger role in the story and felt more like Griffith's tsundere sidekick turned Gut's girlfriend. All three characters suffered through some terrible things, but at the end of the day it's not because of the terrible things that happened to them that people like them, it's because they managed to overcome them.

I think it's perfectly fine for characters to make sense within the context of the story and behave realistically. This surely makes them good as far as how they serve the larger narrative, but this doesn't mean that they in themselves are "good" characters. A good character taken out of the context of the story should be able to stand on their own as someone that has merits, conviction and strength worthy of admiration and respect. Although both are important the latter tends to be the one that leaves a lasting impression and are memorable. The type that the average MAL user would have in their favorites. "Good" is a pretty vague concept in of itself like I said before I don't feel like our arguments are mutually exclusive. Like you said in your last paragraph though, you can take what you need from a character and discard the rest. You can learn from the mistakes, so you don’t have to suffer as they did. You can avoid their failures and you can strive for their success.

Sorry for the super late reply, you always have so much to say and I pretty much just end up agreeing with you on almost everything, thus my short reply. But I really enjoy your insight on these subjects, so you can continue sharing your thoughts with me if you like ^^

I think I told you that I had taken Moral Philosophy before (or maybe not), and I had found it to be an interesting topic. Although we focused on contemporary morals issues and looked at both sides of the arguments through a philosophical angle, I like how you talk about moral equivalence and moral situationalism, which I hadn’t explicitly encountered before. Moral situationalism is more ambiguous I think, it might ultimately depend on people's values which determine their idea about how a situation should be dealt with.

Interesting quote about temperaments and how they are manifested in society, it does give me a clearer picture with the explanation of elasticity of human nature. It actually reminds me of when I was at an interview for an internship, and the interviewer determined that I wouldn’t be fit to work with children because I was soft-spoken during the interview, despite my resume saying that I have worked in plenty of settings with children before. Of course I understand that interviews are for giving the interviewers a good impression of yourself, but it’s like the quote says, people can be different in other situations. I got an internship somewhere else, and my supervisor told me on my last day that he was surprised that I could work so well with kids when I had seemed to be reserved in the beginning. I know I can’t hide behind my introverted personality and always be intimidated by people who hold authority, but I think it’s also important for people to realize that first impressions aren’t the most accurate. When I worked as a cashier/waitress/drink maker, I was also able to interact with customers in a non-reserved way, but I think this goes more towards people having the flexibility to act according to their roles. Again, I sort of digressed with my own experiences, but I thought it was related to what your quote about temperament.



I’ve asked myself this question a lot, since I do take rating series seriously, and I would like to be fair with my scores. The conclusion I came to is that it’s alright for you to judge a series even if the genre doesn’t appeal to you or you aren’t in the target audience, as long as you try to be fair, meaning you judge everything else (aside from your enjoyment) the way you judge other series. When I first started trying out mecha anime, I didn’t particularly care about the mecha action, which is what basically what defines the genre, aside from the war element, but I chose to judge it on the story, characters, and how the themes were executed. Although I suppose for romance, that’s harder to do since it tends to have loose plot (or no plot) and the characters are hard to judge because they’re tied in with the romance aspect. Did you have an answer to your (this) question?


Yes, I remember! That sounds like a great idea, it could definitely be an interesting place to talk about such characters, if it’s well moderated. I can see flame wars happening, unfortunately. Such controversial topics do get people really emotional. It could be eye-opening too though, for people who are open-minded to seeing the defenses.

No worries, take your time. Hopefully I didn't come off too strong, I just wanted to get my point across and I'm sure you can tell I'm pretty passionate about the topic. My profile pic is a character named Dōa from Blade of the Immortal, a manga by Samura Hiraoki. It's a good read if you like edo-period Japan and samurais and stuff, although the manga focuses more on mercenaries. Also sorry for any tpyos I tend to get really sloppy when I type out huge textwalls.

Hey was just going through your thoughts on beta male and just wanted to present my perspective. Hopefully you're up for a little discussion and challenge to your views/perspective.

So first of all I want to say that I think the concepts of Alpha and Beta are not particularly well suited to be applied to human relationships. The roots of these concepts are very much steeped in sexual survival. In animals that have a tournament mating style like Elephant seals for example, the Alpha of the herd is the only one that gets to mate while the other males are blocked from doing so. This is not how humans mate though. We are a mix of pair bonding (lifelong monogamous) relationships and tournament and also "free love" that is expressed by bonobos (everyone mates with everyone, matriarchal dominance and also same sex intercourse). Women are the limiting factor of reproduction as they are the ones with the larger gamete and where the offspring gestate. It doesn't matter how many males there are, the number offspring is determined by how many females there are and the male is able to impregnate multiple females with ease, increasing the disposability of males when it comes to reproduction. Of course humans are sexually dimorphic meaning that there are significant differences between the male and the female of the species not only genitalia. Honestly this is something that would probably take a lot more time and effort to explain and I likely won't be able to do it justice. Here is a video with a (hopefully) more clear explanation on what I'm talking about. In the description you'll also find a link to the lecture of Professor Richard Dawkins and I highly recommend going trough those if you want to be know knowledgeable about this topic

So how does this relate to the beta male stereotypes that we see in anime? Well hopefully what I managed to get across is that it's related to sexual reproduction and evolutionary psychology. Although there are of course women that prefer the type of man that is more nurturing, introversion, emotional and supportive, but for the most part when selecting for men women like confidence, being assertive and extroversion. Before we go on though I just want to make clear that I feel like the concepts of "masculinity" and "femininity" are silly for the most part in modern society. There is no right or wrong way of being a man or woman. Where these concepts do hold some sort of value is sexual reproduction. Someone who is more confident and outgoing, who is willing to mate with more than one female is automatically more successful in terms of reproduction than someone who is introverted and if he's lucky will eventually settle down into a monogamous pair bond relationship with only one female. The "alpha" has a much higher chance of passing down his genes as he has more offspring with more genetic diversity with more females. The "beta" in this situation may not even get the chance to mate and considering he is lacking dominant and assertive characteristics there is a higher probability that he could be getting cuckolded and the offspring might not even be his.

Although there is no right way to be male or female there is a way to be more successful in terms of reproduction, thus we are more critical of men who do not meet this criteria for being sexually successful. Why do we not criticize females in the same way? Because they are the limiting factor of reproduction. They play the passive role, and men play the active one. It doesn't matter if there are 10 men and 1 women it will only produce 1 offspring, but 10 women and 1 man can produce 10 offspring. Thus women are not subject to the same pressures as men as far as sexual competition. The characteristics that we associate with traditionally male characters are often those that will lead to the most sexual and reproductive success (more mating, more offspring more genetic diversity). The feminine traits I find harder to explain, but I guess we often have this "opposites attract" mentality and thus we see things like being nurturing, kind, submissive and modest being associated with the female and indeed perhaps these traits would lead to more reproductive success if the women is more likely to stay with her child and take care and nurture for it, instead of abandoning it and rejecting males who would give her the chance to produce offspring. Again these things are only in relation to reproduction and I find it silly to impose these sort of values on human society, especially as we have an overpopulation crisis that threatens both the earth and our species.

As for why there is so many characters in anime today that have "beta" male characteristics, that largely has to do with demographic. Who is buying and watching these shows, who are they made for? What kind of people are they? Well only maybe a decade or so ago and even more so in the 80's or 90's you would rarely find male characters that are so weak, submissive, lazy, introverted and prone to procrastination as we do in modern anime. Why? Well Japan is a country that is very well known for it's intense work ethic, which has made it one of the worlds leaders in terms of economy despite it's relatively small size. What has changed in these past years though? The growth of NEET's, Hikkikomori's, Freeters and Herbivore men that either have no jobs or work enough only to subsidize their living and hobbies. Birthrates in Japan and plummeting, it is the country with the 2nd lowest birthrate only to Germany (which will probably change soon due to Syrian immigration). Which is in stark contrast to the otherwise overpopulation in most parts of the world. The type of men that watch and buy anime in Japan are the same that are likely not going to get married, not have kids and may even end up as lifelong virgins. http://www.cnn.com/2015/06/24/asia/japan-middle-aged-virgins/

Now I don't really know why this might be, perhaps all of the artificial relationships that we see from anime, dating sims etc. have taken the place of real relationships for these men. Also the cut-throat business and work life of Japan may not be suitable for many and this has led them to cut themselves off from traditional male roles. I'm sure a host of other things are at work here, but the bottom line is that many of the guys consuming anime these days have these beta characteristics and are thus more likely to relate to characters with these same characteristics. This is why you see the indecisive harem leads that can't seem to make a choice even when girls are constantly throwing themselves at him or the submissive men who are easily pushed around especially by female characters (mild masochism maybe?) , characters that are lazy and unmotivated, who don't have goals and ambition. Usually these things need to be given to them through some sort of plot point or catalyst etc. Usually it's only near the end of the show and with the help of other characters that the protagonists can reach his "potential" and even then he rarely "gets the girl" or makes some sort of commitment. He just goes on with his regular way of thinking and feeling after whatever event that caused him to temporarily change is removed and he doesn't have to make any sort of commitment, either to a female or otherwise.

This is not to say that characters cannot be emotionally vulnerable or ever show weakness while still maintaining a core "alpha" personality. For example my favorite characters Guts, he is extremely vulnerable on an emotional level and he constantly feels the need compensate usually in a physical way. Just look at the size of his sword lol. He is motivated though, he wants greatness, he wants to make connections with people, he wants to lead and he makes efforts to realize his goals. Right at the end of the series though (huge spoilers ahead) you see him break down as everything is stripped away from him. Everything he worked so hard to achieve his relationships, social status etc. You don't see him sit down and give up though, unlike some of the other members of his group. He keeps fighting, because even though he's lost everything he does not give up. Even when he is restrained and forced to watch his lover being raped he hacks off his own arm, because he is not the type of person to just lay down and take it. He is not the type of person to give up, whine, complain or back down. This is real struggle, this is real pain and adversity. Not just accepting your place in life but actively fighting it. No one wants to stay in that mindset, you want to root for the character to overcome his problems and struggles and when characters just give up without even trying of course you're going to have people getting mad at that and looking at those characters with disdain.

When you have these characters that are lazy, unmotivated and submissive and can't manage to do anything on their own. These incompetent failures who don't even make an effort to try to improve their lot in life and need to be poked and prodded every inch of the way, yes people are going to hate these characters, unless they see themselves as that and are satisfied with remaining that way. Furthermore you can't look up to characters like these, you cannot draw inspiration and admiration from them. No one aspires to be a failure to be weak and emotionally frail. They want to be strong they want to be resilient so that they take what life throws at them. They want to challenge fate and destiny and try to change and become better than they are. They want role models that exemplify qualities that they want in themselves, not reminders of their own weakness and incompetence. They want that stoic traditionally masculine man that doesn't breakdown and cry under pressure, that is willing to sacrifice for those that are important to him. Who doesn't whine and complain about his situation, but instead actively tries to change it. A man who is determined and resolute, who is driven by his goals and passions. Thus you see the hostility that so many men including myself to a degree feel towards these beta males in anime that don't inspire or exemplify qualities that are desirable or admirable.

Just another example I wanted to provide in Utwarerumono. Just the last decade in 2006 the first iteration of this series was release. The main character a natural born leader. Strong, charismatic, decisive and motivated, major spoilers here (as with Berserk) but he quickly takes his place as the leader of the village and eventually builds a kingdom, marries and has a family. This is commitment, this is seeing your goals and completion despite the fact that he was put in a very vulnerable position as he had no memories and didn't even know who he was. Despite this he rose to the occasion, he took charge and made something of himself and aided the whole village in the process. Fast forward to the 2015 version. Same situation a man with no memories or idea of who he is. Constantly complaining that physical work is exhausting, that he just wants to relax and not do anything, this lazinesss and complacency. There is no sense of urgency in the series. Anytime he does anything worthwhile it's because the other characters are essentially holding him to it and not letting him embrace is core "beta" personality. Of course this show isn't done yet, but you can just see the difference. Same situation, but when retold for the 2015 audience the main character is drastically changed to reflect the main demographic.

Even though I'm talking almost in a 3rd person (observer) about this stuff, it is definitely something that affects me and I have strong feelings toward. I have lived much of my life being very "beta" and introverted. Social anxiety, depression, fear, lack of motivation and ambition. Right down the line I was beta to the core. That doesn't mean you have to stay that way though. I don't feel like anyone should be satisfied with this sort of mindset, it's not productive and it won't help you achieve your goals and find happiness. Change is a powerful thing and people don't have to stay the way they are just because that's how they've been all of their lives. I'm constantly trying to make improvement to myself, challenge myself to become better, stronger, physically, mentally and emotionally. I want progress and change. I'm not satisfied with just being beta, lying down and accepting what life has to offer me. You can't wait for something to happen you have to make it happen yourself. No one is going to look out for your best interests, no one is going to take care of you and tell you everything is going to be alright, lick your wounds and hold your hand and make you feel like you're special and that your life has meaning.

You have to be the one that changes, you have to give your life meaning, you have to motivate yourself to be better than you are right now. You can't just spend your life moping around, whining and complaining that things are not as good as you want, you have to be the change. It's like that quote "be the change you want to see in others". Instead of just complaining to people that they need to change and wanting the world to change to accommodate your wants and needs, you have to be the one to change. You need to want it more than anyone else. No is one is going to do it for you. If you don't want to put in the effort, if you're not motivated and determined, you can bet that there is someone else who is and they will not wait for you. They will take the opportunity that should have been yours. Life is a competition and struggle and those who do not rise to meet it are not worthy praise or admiration

There is a lot more I want to say on this topic, but I feel like I've already written way too much for one post and I'm sure you'll need some time to digest this. Looking forward to your reply and hope that you are willing to consider things from a different perspective/frame.

Oh man, I totally missed your last comment x_x

On your recent thoughts though, that's an interesting observation. I did give up on Chaos Dragon because I thought it was bad, but I can definitely imagine people reacting that way to Ibuki's peaceful way. I think people always want to see action, and violence (and sex too) are far more intense to watch than say a peaceful negotiation. For example in Naruto, people did find it interesting that Naruto could change people through talking, but as it went on, fans started becoming sarcastic about these situations and called it Talk-no-Jutsu. Not sure if you're already familiar with it, but I linked it for you. I think it also goes along with the idea that what we're watching (or reading) is entertainment, and people want to see something happen and get excited, and talking usually doesn't cut it for a lot of people. Maybe that's why the Slice of Life genre is such a hit or miss for people, especially the ones with an overall quite tone to the whole series.

No I've not watched Black Adder, though that was pretty funny. I'm afraid I missed the point of you recommending it though, is it just for fun or did you actually want to make a point about something? :o

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Responding to your comment from May:

I think that makes sense, that temperament is part of someone's nature, and that it's mostly not learned. So then you are saying that people don't choose to be prejudiced but they can be or they are (against certain people or things) just that way. I think the middle ground between Robert and Dylon would just say that being prejudiced is not a good thing but also admit that it happens to everyone. I think preferences are just part your nature too, we talked about this is psychology when we discussed "What is your type" (as in the type of people you are interested in or attracted to). A lot of people answered it easily, whether it was broad or specific, but no one could really answer why. So I guess it's also natural that most people enjoy something exciting in anime, and exciting once again means action, and that some don't like beta-males because they're weak and don't act. I think I totally went on a tangent there, I apologize :P

Thanks! Glad you enjoyed my posts/reviews. I appreciate it.