You remember when TL Notes were a thing in anime Subs?

Apr 22, 2014 6:25 AM

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I really liked them in Prince of Tennis when they were used to explain David's jokes because he would make puns mixing english and japanese pronunciations

Apr 22, 2014 6:33 AM

#52

Alcoholicide

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Feb 2010

34597

Taxi_Commander said:

gamer2710 said:
"Remember"? They're still there, and they still suck. You call the lack of TL notes "lazy"? I call the lack of creativity to get around TL notes lazy. Can't fault the translators if they're on a strict deadline though unless they do shit like the picture Red_Keys posted. I mean, who in the world thinks this is an example of good subtitles?

If you ask me, it'd be unwanted creativity. I prefer to experience foreign media as close to its original meaning as possible, and perhaps learn a thing or two while watching. This is why it annoys me when honorifics are excluded, or Japanese food names are changed to western ones; it's obnoxious.

I'm inclined to agree, though there are really examples where it's unnecessary (like the ones those two posted). Localizing food is just weird for example. As for honorifics, you can hear them anyway why does it matter if the subs write them down unless you're deaf or watching anime muted?

I probably regret this post by now.

Apr 22, 2014 6:43 AM

#53

Miraclezify

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Nov 2012

1415

For things that can't easily be translated, I think TL notes are fine. The problem with this line of thinking however is that translators seem to think things like "nakama" can't be translated when it essentially means "friend" or "baka" when it's basically "idiot" or anything along those lines.

I think honourifics should never be included in the subtitles either. I think it's one of those things from back in the day when people were just getting into streaming fan-subbed anime and thought it was the coolest thing ever that Japanese people would have a "-chan" or a "-san" attached to the end of their name.

Apr 22, 2014 6:53 AM

#54

Alcoholicide

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Feb 2010

34597

Miraclezify said:
For things that can't easily be translated, I think TL notes are fine. The problem with this line of thinking however is that translators seem to think things like "nakama" can't be translated when it essentially means "friend" or "baka" when it's basically "idiot" or anything along those lines.

Nakama does have a much more complex meaning than simply 'friend' though. I'm glad for that translation by Kaizoku-fansubs back in the day that explained all the nuances of 'nakama' to me.

I probably regret this post by now.

Apr 22, 2014 6:55 AM

#55

NaturalPerm

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Jan 2013

1544

some gintama subs had TL notes to explain the parodies

Apr 22, 2014 6:56 AM

#56

Alcoholicide

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Feb 2010

34597

TheNaturalPerm said:
some gintama subs had TL notes to explain the parodies

I remember that too. Pretty helpful.

I probably regret this post by now.

Apr 22, 2014 8:51 AM

#57

Akkiatsu

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Oct 2013

27

When i started watching Natsume Yuujinchou, and i saw TL notes, it also made me wonder whatever happened. Since i never see them anymore with all the new shows i've been watching. I kinda liked and miss pausing whenever i see TL notes. Lol.

Apr 22, 2014 11:28 AM

#58

Zalis

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Jun 2007

3877

Higashi_no_Kaze said:

TheNaturalPerm said:
some gintama subs had TL notes to explain the parodies

I remember that too. Pretty helpful.

Why should parodies be explained, though? Did the Japanese audience get little notes explaining what things were referencing? If you were watching Scary Movie 17, would you expect to see notes saying "this is a parody of a scene from Saw 12"?

I can maybe see a justification for notes on references that would be near-universally known to Japanese audiences, but are generally unknown to Western audiences. That would mainly encompass kiddy stuff like Doraemon that aren't translated in English and that Western audiences don't care about. But parodies of other latenight otaku anime? Either you've seen them or you haven't.

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Apr 22, 2014 11:36 AM

#59

baki502

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Apr 2012

4713

Zalis said:

Higashi_no_Kaze said:

TheNaturalPerm said:
some gintama subs had TL notes to explain the parodies

I remember that too. Pretty helpful.

Why should parodies be explained, though? Did the Japanese audience get little notes explaining what things were referencing? If you were watching Scary Movie 17, would you expect to see notes saying "this is a parody of a scene from Saw 12"?

I can maybe see a justification for notes on references that would be near-universally known to Japanese audiences, but are generally unknown to Western audiences. That would mainly encompass kiddy stuff like Doraemon that aren't translated in English and that Western audiences don't care about. But parodies of other latenight otaku anime? Either you've seen them or you haven't.

Or you could try to get off your high horse. So what if the japanese viewers didnt get Notes telling them where the parody is from? Whats that got to do with the TL notes? We are not japanese and if we can have better why not? Im pretty sure not all japanese are happy with that either. Also Gintama is fairly popular and well known chances are people might watch it before having seen quite a lot of the parodied anime in there. Why not provide them with something that could make them enjoy it more?
Jesus Christ, Japan this Japan that, if they didnt make anime manga or games hardly anyone would give a rats ass about japan. Stop obsessing over it, or do you also drool over the US and its people and customs like no tomorrow because Hollywood is in it?

Apr 22, 2014 12:10 PM

#60

DateYutaka

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Mar 2011

25073

Zalis said:

Higashi_no_Kaze said:

TheNaturalPerm said:
some gintama subs had TL notes to explain the parodies

I remember that too. Pretty helpful.

Why should parodies be explained, though? Did the Japanese audience get little notes explaining what things were referencing? If you were watching Scary Movie 17, would you expect to see notes saying "this is a parody of a scene from Saw 12"?

I can maybe see a justification for notes on references that would be near-universally known to Japanese audiences, but are generally unknown to Western audiences. That would mainly encompass kiddy stuff like Doraemon that aren't translated in English and that Western audiences don't care about. But parodies of other latenight otaku anime? Either you've seen them or you haven't.

yet again you only know the us market wey you say west thus shows you bias thus you fail in this debate

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong

Apr 22, 2014 12:14 PM

#61

DateYutaka

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Mar 2011

25073

Higashi_no_Kaze said:

Miraclezify said:
For things that can't easily be translated, I think TL notes are fine. The problem with this line of thinking however is that translators seem to think things like "nakama" can't be translated when it essentially means "friend" or "baka" when it's basically "idiot" or anything along those lines.

Nakama does have a much more complex meaning than simply 'friend' though. I'm glad for that translation by Kaizoku-fansubs back in the day that explained all the nuances of 'nakama' to me.

Nakama is Companion simple as that is not deeo but in Japan cuase of the confusian views we hold Friend [ Tomodachi] is not a word we use much
remember friend and friend is one of the five bonds

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong

Apr 22, 2014 12:22 PM

#62

gamer2710

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Aug 2012

3305

Oh boy, this topic again.

Aversa said:

Personally i liked the old subs more then many of these "Official subs" if you can call them that are to Americanised in my opinion.
A few years ago it was normal to see how a person was called in anime like if someone is talking to an older girl and calls her nee-san the subs would do the same while these "official subs" will go with miss or lady.
Or where a character talking is talking to their sister calling her onee-chan the subs would do the same but the "official subs" will always go with sister.
Which doesn't work with many anime this season has one anime in particular where it doesn't work Mikakunin de Shinkoukei where one characters wishes to be addressed in several different ways she mentions onee-chan onee-san onee-sama nee-chan and aniki and the "official sub" translated them all as either sister or dear sister, which simply makes the point of the character useless and doesn't make any sense to people not familiar with anime or Japanese language.
While many of the older subs of fansubs would translate it correctly and leave a translation note for newcomers to anime.

But the thing that really annoys me about these "official subs" is that the intrepid the American system instead of the Japanese one.
For example when talking about the school system when talking about a second year junior high student the old subs and fansubs would often translate it directly while "official subs" subs will always say 8th grade after the American system.
In my opinion English subs are aimed at a international audience not just the US audience and simple fact is that many countries have different systems so now we not only have to know about the Japanese system but also the American one, which i find insulting.
On top of that America is probably one of the only countries that keep counting up with their grade system when entering high school, in most other countries when entering high school your not a 7th grades but you are a first year.
So it's much easier from an international point of view to just keep with the Japanese system and it probably would make more sense to a US audience as well.

With Official subs i mean the ones working for Funimation or CR or similar services.
And they changed some things but i honestly think it's not for the better if anything they still have a lot to learn and to improve on.

That's just a case of not being the target audience. "Official" subtitles are mostly done by groups based in the US who are selling to the US audience, so naturally the first thing they would use is the US way of life to describe something. You may disagree, but that's how it works in series where the education system isn't a huge deal (which is to say, most of them). You can't expect them not to localize the subs for their audience.

With regard to honorifics, you can't say that something is "correctly" translated just because they don't leave it as-is. While it's easy to leave a TL note, it kind of ruins the experience because dialogue among people in a certain relationship that seems just as natural in English as it is in Japanese (friend, sibling, parent, teacher, upper/underclassman, boss, lover etc.) has to be explained. All they have to do is write the dialogue to produce the same feeling or idea; the literal meaning may change completely, but the concept still exists.

I understand that official subs nowadays still don't get it quite right, but leaving TL notes is not the way I want them to do it. Add to this the fact that official subs translate as a show is airing, so the simulcast subs may end up sounding awkward due to time constraints and due to the fact that the translators never have the complete picture before they localize something. Still, I think people nowadays are too caught up in trivial details that they think a lack of TL notes is a bad sign when it shouldn't be.

This topic has not been locked and is still available for discussion.

Apr 22, 2014 1:34 PM

#63

DateYutaka

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Mar 2011

25073

gamer2710 said:
Oh boy, this topic again.

Aversa said:

Personally i liked the old subs more then many of these "Official subs" if you can call them that are to Americanised in my opinion.
A few years ago it was normal to see how a person was called in anime like if someone is talking to an older girl and calls her nee-san the subs would do the same while these "official subs" will go with miss or lady.
Or where a character talking is talking to their sister calling her onee-chan the subs would do the same but the "official subs" will always go with sister.
Which doesn't work with many anime this season has one anime in particular where it doesn't work Mikakunin de Shinkoukei where one characters wishes to be addressed in several different ways she mentions onee-chan onee-san onee-sama nee-chan and aniki and the "official sub" translated them all as either sister or dear sister, which simply makes the point of the character useless and doesn't make any sense to people not familiar with anime or Japanese language.
While many of the older subs of fansubs would translate it correctly and leave a translation note for newcomers to anime.

But the thing that really annoys me about these "official subs" is that the intrepid the American system instead of the Japanese one.
For example when talking about the school system when talking about a second year junior high student the old subs and fansubs would often translate it directly while "official subs" subs will always say 8th grade after the American system.
In my opinion English subs are aimed at a international audience not just the US audience and simple fact is that many countries have different systems so now we not only have to know about the Japanese system but also the American one, which i find insulting.
On top of that America is probably one of the only countries that keep counting up with their grade system when entering high school, in most other countries when entering high school your not a 7th grades but you are a first year.
So it's much easier from an international point of view to just keep with the Japanese system and it probably would make more sense to a US audience as well.

With Official subs i mean the ones working for Funimation or CR or similar services.
And they changed some things but i honestly think it's not for the better if anything they still have a lot to learn and to improve on.

That's just a case of not being the target audience. "Official" subtitles are mostly done by groups based in the US who are selling to the US audience, so naturally the first thing they would use is the US way of life to describe something. You may disagree, but that's how it works in series where the education system isn't a huge deal (which is to say, most of them). You can't expect them not to localize the subs for their audience.

With regard to honorifics, you can't say that something is "correctly" translated just because they don't leave it as-is. While it's easy to leave a TL note, it kind of ruins the experience because dialogue among people in a certain relationship that seems just as natural in English as it is in Japanese (friend, sibling, parent, teacher, upper/underclassman, boss, lover etc.) has to be explained. All they have to do is write the dialogue to produce the same feeling or idea; the literal meaning may change completely, but the concept still exists.

I understand that official subs nowadays still don't get it quite right, but leaving TL notes is not the way I want them to do it. Add to this the fact that official subs translate as a show is airing, so the simulcast subs may end up sounding awkward due to time constraints and due to the fact that the translators never have the complete picture before they localize something. Still, I think people nowadays are too caught up in trivial details that they think a lack of TL notes is a bad sign when it shouldn't be.

defend the whitewashing of culutre CR needs tio die or begin to sub correctly anime is based in japan or most of tahe late night otaku bate that CR subs is so taking out sothing that is a big part of japanese culture makes it less l Japanese

usa uber alles or our view is that that the view both you Majin and zalis have you you thiink naime sould loose its culsute dont watch it

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong

Apr 22, 2014 1:45 PM

#64

Alcoholicide

Offline

Feb 2010

34597

Zalis said:

Higashi_no_Kaze said:

TheNaturalPerm said:
some gintama subs had TL notes to explain the parodies

I remember that too. Pretty helpful.

Why should parodies be explained, though? Did the Japanese audience get little notes explaining what things were referencing? If you were watching Scary Movie 17, would you expect to see notes saying "this is a parody of a scene from Saw 12"?

I can maybe see a justification for notes on references that would be near-universally known to Japanese audiences, but are generally unknown to Western audiences. That would mainly encompass kiddy stuff like Doraemon that aren't translated in English and that Western audiences don't care about. But parodies of other latenight otaku anime? Either you've seen them or you haven't.

Don't you know how many references to non-anime related stuff Gintama has? It references old japanese Tv shows or movies, japanese third rate celebrities and tons of other stuff that would seem obscure to most western viewers. I was mostly talking about those.

I probably regret this post by now.

Apr 22, 2014 1:49 PM

#65

DateYutaka

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Mar 2011

25073

Higashi_no_Kaze said:

Zalis said:

Higashi_no_Kaze said:

TheNaturalPerm said:
some gintama subs had TL notes to explain the parodies

I remember that too. Pretty helpful.

Why should parodies be explained, though? Did the Japanese audience get little notes explaining what things were referencing? If you were watching Scary Movie 17, would you expect to see notes saying "this is a parody of a scene from Saw 12"?

I can maybe see a justification for notes on references that would be near-universally known to Japanese audiences, but are generally unknown to Western audiences. That would mainly encompass kiddy stuff like Doraemon that aren't translated in English and that Western audiences don't care about. But parodies of other latenight otaku anime? Either you've seen them or you haven't.

Don't you know how many references to non-anime related stuff Gintama has? It references old japanese Tv shows or movies, japanese third rate celebrities and tons of other stuff that would seem obscure to most western viewers. I was mostly talking about those.

talking to Zalis is pointless

"If you tremble with indignation at every injustice, then you are a comrade of mine"

When the union's inspiration through the workers' blood shall run
There can be no power greater anywhere beneath the sun
Yet what force on earth is weaker than the feeble strength of one
For the Union makes us strong

Apr 22, 2014 3:47 PM

#66

Kyuutoryuu

Offline

Aug 2013

1336

Woah, I actually didn't notice that. But you're absolutely right, OP; TL Notes are a thing of the fansubbing past now. It's really a shame. My guess is it's the result of laziness; not the laziness to put the TL notes in themselves, but the laziness to even fansub properly. Most fansubs nowadays are ripped off of official simulcasts like Crunchyroll.

Apr 22, 2014 5:39 PM

#67

Zalis

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Jun 2007

3877

baki502 said:
Or you could try to get off your high horse. So what if the Japanese viewers didn't get Notes telling them where the parody is from? Whats that got to do with the TL notes? We are not japanese and if we can have better why not? I'm pretty sure not all Japanese are happy with that either. Also Gintama is fairly popular and well known chances are people might watch it before having seen quite a lot of the parodied anime in there. Why not provide them with something that could make them enjoy it more?
Jesus Christ, Japan this Japan that, if they didn't make anime manga or games hardly anyone would give a rat's ass about japan. Stop obsessing over it, or do you also drool over the US and its people and customs like no tomorrow because Hollywood is in it?

Ever heard of "jokes aren't funny if they have to be explained?" The idea (at least as I see it) behind TL notes and translations in general is to attempt to give foreign viewers or readers a similar experience to what the native-speakers viewers had. My guiding principle behind whether to add a TL note or not is, "Would a typical member of the Japanese audience know this because they grew up in Japan?" That allows for TL notes for Japanese linguistic, cultural, historical, and culinary elements, among other things, if the dialogue wouldn't make sense without them.

Higashi_no_Kaze said:

Don't you know how many references to non-anime related stuff Gintama has? It references old japanese Tv shows or movies, japanese third rate celebrities and tons of other stuff that would seem obscure to most western viewers. I was mostly talking about those.

Some of those might be justifiable enough, but how much of the typical Japanese audience is intimately familiar with old TV shows/movies and 3rd-rate celebrities? If the anime creators and directors intended for their audience to understand every reference, why doesn't the Japanese version have hardcoded notes? I bring up the Hollywood parallel because its parody movies work the same way -- general audiences will get the obvious references to other popular works, while only the hardcore audiences will get the more obscure and subtle references.

Aversa said:
A few years ago it was normal to see how a person was called in anime like if someone is talking to an older girl and calls her nee-san the subs would do the same while these "official subs" will go with miss or lady.
Or where a character talking is talking to their sister calling her onee-chan the subs would do the same but the "official subs" will always go with sister.

Official subs (not sure how the scare quotes apply) will sometimes substitute the older sibling's name, as well. But why is it unacceptable or bad to translate sibling terms, while translating parental terms like otousan and okaasan is normal to the point that leaving them untranslated is considered a weeaboo position? While their use for unrelated older individuals can be trickier, I don't see how translating those sibling terms fundamentally changes anything.

FGAU1912 said:
yet again you only know the us market when you say west thus shows you bias thus you fail in this debate

Okay, fine, substitute "The North American market and English-speaking regions" for "Western." You got me there. Sorry for wanting to save a few keystrokes, a concept you're no doubt familiar with. So where exactly in the Western world do Doraemon and similar kodomo-muke anime enjoy widespread exposure and success in the TV, manga, and merchandise sectors comparable to what they enjoy in Japan?

And you once asked "how do we know that they won't be successful if nobody tries?"; some fansub groups have tried with Doraemon, but they gave up after subbing a very small percentage of the episodes because the attention and feedback they got wasn't worth the effort. And if hardly anybody's interested in watching it for free, why should a company take a chance on licensing it. And no North American anime company has the power to put anime into primetime slots on "proper" channels, as you've suggested they do.

FGAU1912 said:
talking to Zalis is pointless

Yet you certainly choose to do it quite often, though the same applies in reverse. Though I wasn't purely trolling you there, as I have included TL notes for Doraemon and similar content in some of my subs in the past.

FGAU1912 said:
defend the whitewashing of culture CR needs to die or begin to sub correctly anime is based in japan or most of the late night otaku bait that CR subs is so taking out something that is a big part of Japanese culture makes it less Japanese

usa uber allies or our view is that the view both you Majin and zalis have you think anime should lose its culture don't watch it

No, I just don't think subs and dubs should be so obsessed with preserving every last bit of culture at the expense of having TL notes every 15 seconds or becoming awkward, unintelligible, or boring. It's possible to make some small sacrifices in the name of accessibility, flow, and entertainment value (because these shows are entertainment after all, not "anthropology lectures on Blu-Ray") while preserving nearly all of the key cultural elements, depending on the series.

As always, if you think I'm an Americentric culture-destroyer, I invite you to check out the subs I've worked on (which include most common honorifics, Eastern name order, Japanese food names, some TL notes, etc.), and judge for yourself if I really believe what you think I believe. But I know that anything more localized than the sample fansubs in this video is inexcusable cultural whitewashing to you. Though come on; if I really were in Majin's camp, why would my sig say what it does?

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Apr 22, 2014 6:19 PM

#68