Homura's Character After Rebellion

Zetsuei380 said:


Most likely even if she defeated Walpurgisnacht, if Madoka died/turned to a magical girl she would of went back in time despite saving the world. Saving the world is more of a secondary objective to her. If lots of people died but Madoka lived she wouldn't do anything to change that.

hyperknees91 said:
I do forget if there was any reason she specifically had to defeat the walpurgisnacht. I mean was it a possibility to just take Madoka and run?

I forget if those things can continue to rampage for an eternity though.

LyricalCrimson said:


You should not forget, that is very likely that WN was after Madoka... and I don't think they want to be haunted by an evil spirit who lays a way of destruction every place he passes through just to get to his target.

straggy said:
She got so much worse. She went from spending a whole TV series protecting the world and the girl she loves to... lol whatever that bullshit was.

straggy said:
A secondary objective is still an objective. She was still saving other people and the world, when she could've focused EVERYTHING on Madoka.

hyperknees91 said:
Well it's more just people view Homura wrong. They think she is a respectable person who is very strong, which isn't true at all. Basically they didn't read in between the lines enough with the events.

For example "Homura is so determined because she's willing to repeat the same events over and over again for the sake of Madoka". When they didn't question why she wouldn't do the same if any of the other girls die. Unlike Okabe who won't disregard what everyone else is feeling simply for the sake of Mayuri when he turns back time. Okabe and Homura do pretty much the same thing, but they are completely different at the same time.

I think the shipping mindset of Madoka x Homura might have gotten somewhat in the way of that.

BeatzMe said:



So how exactly is this any different from what she did in the third movie?

Protecting the world was definitely just a side effect that originated from her attempt to protect Madoka.

Again, in this movie, all she does is protect Madoka. She didn't harm ANYONE. Among others, even brought Sayaka back to school. She still maintains the law of cycles, which, according to your own logic, equals a secondary objective. She is protecting the world from witches.

The only bad thing she did was to alter people's memories and seal Madoka's powers. But her intentions were in no way evil. Compared to the series, where she didn't care if Sayaka or anyone else died as long as Madoka was save, this is nothing.

The whole "I'm a demon" statement is just making people think that she actually is purely evil now although it's more a metaphor for her methods and goals opposing those of Madoka. Her feelings and decisions are completely reasonable and human, considering everything she went through. She is just obsessed. That's what she was throughout the whole series as well.

I'm convinced that most people who claim that she acted out of character / inconsistent just didn't pay enough attention or didn't even bother to understand the events.

hyperknees91 said:
Well it's more just people view Homura wrong. They think she is a respectable person who is very strong, which isn't true at all. Basically they didn't read in between the lines enough with the events.

For example "Homura is so determined because she's willing to repeat the same events over and over again for the sake of Madoka". When they didn't question why she wouldn't do the same if any of the other girls die. Unlike Okabe who won't disregard what everyone else is feeling simply for the sake of Mayuri when he turns back time. Okabe and Homura do pretty much the same thing, but they are completely different at the same time.

I think the shipping mindset of Madoka x Homura might have gotten somewhat in the way of that.

straggy said:
Being a demon has nothing to do with that and I never mentioned it. :/

straggy said:
She harmed Madoka MENTALLY. People call Homura evil because she kidnapped Madoka, placed her in a noncon relationship and is now abusing her, like. That's something you can easily call evil. She'd never have done that in the first series either - it's literally going against what she wanted. It was utter bullshit and I'm convinced most people who claim that was in character/morally sound DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT ABUSE IS.

straggy said:
Being a demon has nothing to do with that and I never mentioned it. :/
She harmed Madoka MENTALLY. People call Homura evil because she kidnapped Madoka, placed her in a noncon relationship and is now abusing her, like. That's something you can easily call evil. She'd never have done that in the first series either - it's literally going against what she wanted. It was utter bullshit and I'm convinced most people who claim that was in character/morally sound DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT ABUSE IS.

Homura explains the reasons she doesn't go to such lengths for anyone else in the show. When she is talking with Madoka in episode 4 she states that magical girls give up everything for the sake of a single wish and fight for those wishes. Madoka was the only one Homura made a wish for. Then in episode 19 we see that she specifically promised Madoka that she would go back in time again and again to save her. She did not make that promise to anyone else.

In addition, there was no way to save Mami or Kyoko, because they had become magical girls long before and were always going to either die fighting or turn into witches. And Syaka would never listen to Homura in any timeline.

It wasn't that she was weak. It was that she recognized her limits. She DID try to keep Mami and Kyoko alive, and she DID try to prevent Syaka from contracting, but they were not the subject of her wish or of her promise, so going to the same lengths to save them as she did to save Madoka would have meant her losing hope of accomplishing anything and giving into despair and becoming a witch after just a few timelines.

There are 2 things that underlie the argument that Homura is 'strong.' The first is that she goes through years and years of futile struggle, reliving the same awful traumas again and again, and does not give into despair. Other magical girls may barely last a week before turning into witches. Homura had the fortitude to literally go on for eternity. The other thing is the comparison with Sayaka. Sayaka wanted Kyoske's gratitude, and one of her major sources of despair was that she felt she couldn't be close to him. Homura, on the other hand, was willing to have Madoka hate her if that's what it took to keep her safe. She continues to do that in the movie, deliberately becoming a witch to protect Madoka from Kyubei. Arguably her actions in becoming a 'demon' are the same thing.

Homura explains the reasons she doesn't go to such lengths for anyone else in the show. When she is talking with Madoka in episode 4 she states that magical girls give up everything for the sake of a single wish and fight for those wishes. Madoka was the only one Homura made a wish for. Then in episode 19 we see that she specifically promised Madoka that she would go back in time again and again to save her. She did not make that promise to anyone else.

In addition, there was no way to save Mami or Kyoko, because they had become magical girls long before and were always going to either die fighting or turn into witches. And Syaka would never listen to Homura in any timeline.

It wasn't that she was weak. It was that she recognized her limits. She DID try to keep Mami and Kyoko alive, and she DID try to prevent Syaka from contracting, but they were not the subject of her wish or of her promise, so going to the same lengths to save them as she did to save Madoka would have meant her losing hope of accomplishing anything and giving into despair and becoming a witch after just a few timelines.

There are 2 things that underlie the argument that Homura is 'strong.' The first is that she goes through years and years of futile struggle, reliving the same awful traumas again and again, and does not give into despair. Other magical girls may barely last a week before turning into witches. Homura had the fortitude to literally go on for eternity. The other thing is the comparison with Sayaka. Sayaka wanted Kyoske's gratitude, and one of her major sources of despair was that she felt she couldn't be close to him. Homura, on the other hand, was willing to have Madoka hate her if that's what it took to keep her safe. She continues to do that in the movie, deliberately becoming a witch to protect Madoka from Kyubei. Arguably her actions in becoming a 'demon' are the same thing.

Was there anything preventing Homura for going back in time to the point before Mami and Kyouko became witches? I forgot whatever rules she had on her time leaping (if she had any).

Regardless I don't think you get what I'm saying. Homura never went back in time for the sake of anyone but Madoka. Like Fierce said, she's not completely indifferent to the other girls, but they are certainly not a priority for her even though she spent time with them as well.

Homura being "strong" is kind of up for debate. Is she "strong" because she tries to change fate or is she just an obsessive person who won't face reality? Regardless of the impact it has on the universe and how helpful her actions are for kyubey, she would keep doing it anyway. Sure you can say she has a lot of devotion, but I don't think necessarily means she's a strong person. Sayaka's case is a little different. That girl basically gave up everything she wanted by becoming a magical girl, she was essentially tricked the most. Homura gave up nothing by becoming a magical girl, it just let her be with Madoka more. So in a sense, she got exactly what she wanted in comparison. Not only that but also it's shown by Mami that as long as magical girls have something to fight for, they won't give into despair. Sayaka had nothing to fight for, it was inevitable for her to get into despair. For some reason Kyouko never gives into despair either, perhaps because her life as a magical girl is still better than it was when she was a kid so she really doesn't care either way.

Actually upon thinking about it...how did Kyouko not give into despair? She was all alone and she had the worst past. I guess we'll just have to say she was stronger than the other girls probably (because even as confident as Mami seemed, it was apparent she would give into despair one day without Madoka's support).

I agree that her actions in this movie are no different then her previous actions. Hence why I said she lacks development. She basically is willing to do any insane thing for Madoka's sake. It's pretty much made her delusional by this point (not unexpected after so many time repeats).

hyperknees91 said:
So what? Is she just trying to help the other magical girls because they would help her defeat the walpurgisnacht and nothing else? That would make her pretty heartless if that was the case. If that was the case that would give her more of a reason to go back in time everytime she screwed up with one of them. It's been established that she can't beat the walpurgisnacht alone and she seems to always be fighting it alone or only with Madoka. I mean if her soul purpose is to prevent Madoka from contracting then it makes her pretty heartless as well because it means she doesn't care what the walpurgisnacht does to the town...there is no way for her to beat it without the other magical girls or without Madoka. I mean I think the peak of her being a person that denies reality is when she actually tries to fight it in the last episodes all by herself. In which she already knows, and has already experienced, that she cannot win. The most we can say is she is a stubborn fool at this point.

Obviously she is obsessive otherwise. Because everything she's doing is pointless if she's already accepted the fact that she can't save Sayaka or any of the other girls. So really, it's even more counterproductive not to go to the same lengths to save them as Madoka. I mean if it all goes with her wish of "helping Madoka not contract" then it's all good in the end either way. Hopefully she wouldn't think like that though.

Sayaka received literally nothing for her wish. Only despair that she ruined her life. Homura was at least given a chance to save her loved one (or so she thought). See Homura is probably the only magical girl who was given a reason to fight. The others only fight because for the sake of their own survival (until the point with Madoka with Mami). That's a pretty big difference. She has "hope" to hang onto, so I don't think there's ever any reason for her to give into despair. There is no hope for the other 3 girls, their lives were essentially destroyed by becoming magical girls. Especially Kyouko. Not only did her wish give her nothing but pain but actually hurt the person she used the wish for the most. Like said, I dunno how she didn't give into despair...it doesn't even make any sense when you think about it.

I also don't really buy that "no use for going to the same lengths of people she didn't use her wish for." If that was the case then Mami would have no reason to team up and support Madoka as her wish only dealt with her own survival. It would also mean that Kyouko would have no reason to support Sayaka as her wish had nothing to do with her either. I don't think their wishes are as much of an ultimatum like you think they are. They can still be human and make human decisions regardless of what their wish involved.

Funny enough Homura's biggest problem is...she has no social skills lawl. So she isn't able to convince the other magical girls of whats going on in any reasonable fashion.

sunofdarkchild said:
Mami wanted Madoka to contract because she did not know what Homura knew. And what happened the moment she stopped fighting out of fear of dying, since her wish was to live? She got her head bitten off. What happens when Kyoko tries to help Syaka? They both die. The whole series happens because Kyubei doesn't tell the girls the vast majority what being a magical girl actually entails, so they don't know. Right before she dies Kyoko tells Homura she was right all along.

Did you really just say that someone stuck in a timeloop of constantly repeating the same tasks tragedies has no reason to despair? That is one of the worst fates man can imagine for himself, which is why the myth of Sisyphus was created in the first place. And what's waiting for her if she manages to get out of the loop? Not a happy-ever-after with Madoka. It's either death or turning into a witch. And Homura knnows that too. She knows that every step she takes toward her goal is another step towards her end. And like Harry Potter with the horcruxes she presses on regardless of that knowledge.

As for the difference between Homura and Syaka. Syaka got her wish fulfilled to the letter. She wasn't prepared for the consequences, but she got exactly what she asked for. Homura never got her wish. She gave up everything for something she did not get and which seemed forever out of reach. Syaka had a reason to fight, to be the kind of hero she thought Mami was. She couldn't handle it being something other than heroic, just like Mami.

It is true that Homura has a lack of social skills, but that wouldn't help her convince the others that the creature that gave them their wishes and their powers first removed their souls and is also plotting to turn them into the very monsters they are fighting. These things are so horrible and clash with their preconceptions so much that they cannot be believed without first being seen.

hyperknees91 said:


For one Mami only got her head bitten off in that timeline. She was alive way after that event in all the other time lines. I have no idea why it went down like that in that time line. Probably because of Homura though (good job homura). I think that's pretty self serving logic that just because the other 2 started to serve someone else that their wish didn't involve their fate was to die (plus Kyoko doesn't die trying to save Sayaka in one timeline, Mami kills her). I wouldn't be surprised if Homura just said that to convince herself what she's doing is the right way, but in the end it doesn't really matter. If she tries to save Madoka (who her wish involves) she's gonna die regardless (or keep turning back time until she turns into a witch, whichever comes first). So that logic kinda falls apart right there.

Not saying being stuck in a timeloop doesn't suck. But she's kind of doing it to herself. She basically self screwed herself over. Regardless it doesn't take away from the fact that she still has hope. Like you said, the second she loses that hope, she would probably turn into a witch. Doesn't make her that much different then the other girls if that's the case (well outside of Kyouko who doesn't seem to care either way). And how was Homura's wish not even fulfilled? Her only wish was to go back to the time her and Madoka met and that's exactly what happened.

BTW does Homura even...have a plan at all? I mean her plan should be pretty much be to MAKE sure the other girls survive somehow. If she screws up she should go back. So why in the world would she not go back after Mami first got killed? I mean she pretty much lost the battle the second that happened.

To me it doesn't even seem like she does anything different across time lines unlike Okabe...I mean...how in the world did she think she could possibly win the second Mami died (considering she's the strongest one, it would be most preferrable to have her strength for the battle). Unless of course, her only goal is to keep Madoka from contracting and she doesn't care what the walpugisnacht does.

The problem is that Mami is too fragile and is prone to siding with Kyubey. Homura actually has it really hard as she has to prepare for Walpurgisnacht, prevent Madoka from Contracting and do both of those things while trying to give the least information to Kyubey which also is everywhere and always watching.

That alien is too dangerous the more information he has as we saw in the series.

Homura's struggle is well presented, and I felt even though what happened in Rebellion makes sense, she took a turn for the worst.

hyperknees91 said:


I'm aware it's a problem. I mean her task is pretty hard, but it still doesn't make sense how she could possibly think they could beat it without Mami. If the PSP game is relevant for anything (and since it was overlooked by urobutcher it probably is) the only way they beat it is with all 4 of them.

To me it doesn't even seem like she has a plan at all. She just kinda...does stuff and hopes it works.

ihusmal1234 said:
About the selfless part.

I just finished the movie and what I don't understand is, is the Madoka at the flower bed the essence of the real Madoka or just a fake Madoka that Homura created in her little labyrinth. If it is a fake it seems like she's pretty much just arguing with herself to justify what she was planning to do later.

And not just Madoka, what about Sayaka and all the other characters. Are they the real deal or fakes. I understand that at the end of the tv series all the other characters got brought back to life in the new world but Sayaka still ended up vanishing.

ElPysCongroo said:


The Madoka in the Homuras barrier is the real one who gets trapped when she initiates the Law of Cycle and gets her with her memories of being Madokami forgotten, Sayaka and Nagisa were brought with Madokami, to stop Kyubey's plan, think of them as Madokami's angels. Kyoko, Mami, Junko, Tomohisa, Tatsuya, Kazuko, Hitomi and Kyousuke are all real and were brought into Homuras's barrier by her familiars. The rest of the civilians are fake though. This all clearly shown in the film though.

ihusmal1234 said:


Thanks for clearing that up. So in the new universe Madokami comes to cleanse the magi girls before turning into witches and they get carried over to Madoheaven. Now I see how Nagisa was there and what that last scene meant in the tv series with Sayaka and Madoka at Kyouske's performance.

One last thing though, how did Madoka get trapped in the first place? Was it the incubator's work or Homura? After she figured everything out, didn't Homura decide to turn into a witch inside the isolation field to prevent MadoKami of ever reaching her so the incubators can't have the opprtunity of trying to control her? What about the real Madoka that was already in Homura's barrier?

ElPysCongroo said:
But everybody is HAPPY though in Homura's ending though, Sayaka is alive and best friends with Kyouko, Maim gets a kid to be a senpai too, and Madoka gets her family back and is happy as well. Ignorance is bliss. Madoka wasn't happy as the Goddess, that's a fact from the show, but Madoka is willing to sacrifice her own happiness for the greater good, Homura on the other hand is willing to sacrifice anything for Madoka's happiness, even her own. Both their wishes conflict each other.

Tachikoma1701 said:


Yeh, Madoka was so unhappy about being a goddess, look how she suffered: LOL
http://images.puella-magi.net/f/fc/Puella112_000272-1.jpg?20120301020804
I think that we saw two, very different TV series - in my PMMM , Madoka was unhappy that she was powerless, that she couldn't help others and she wanted to have meaningful life.

As for girls being happy: illusionary and forced happiness is not happiness at all. Lesson learned from history of authoritarian regimes all over the world - those system will eventually fall, no metter how much dictators would want to convince citizens that they are happy. And Homura knows that - she wasn't happy in her illusionary world in "Rebellion", she learned the truth and she couldn't accept this lie. So what make you think that other girls won't have this same realisation? If they won't then there won't be season 2!

And I think that Homura's character was practically ruined: now she is obviously evil, more evil than Kyubey - at least he was using those girls for a greater good, and he respected free will. Homura on the other hand is a thief - she stolen Madoka's power- , betrayer - she practically backstabbed her best and only friend -, kidnaper - she deprived Madoka of her freedom -, liar - she erased people's memories and show them illusionary world -, and dictator - now, everyone is just a doll, in Homura's dollhouse. If this is not evil, then I don't know what is? And if this is only beginning of her reign, if there will be season 2, then this is just a top of the iceberg - because absolute power corrupts absolutely.

And BTW, why you are giving Homura extra rights? Why her wishes should be any more important than wishes of Madoka or Sayaka, or anyone else on the planet? Why should Homura decide how people should live their lives? Why she should dictate how world look like? Who elected Akemi, who give her the right to decide about Madoka's fate? Should we agree with this Evil Queen, just because she is currently stronger, than anyone else in the universe? Might make it right? Then why don't agree with Kim Jong Un or Hitler? In fact it's funny that her name is Akemi Homura, work a little with it, and you will get, "good" old Adolf... And yes, he also wanted to make German people happy. And you know, what's funny? Homura would agree with me - she knows that what she is doing is wrong, that's why she calls herself the devil, and that's why she hate herself.

And here is more reasons why I think "Rebellion" basically assassinated Homura's character - this guy told this better than I ever could:
http://www.reddit.com/r/TrueAnime/comments/1wrc4k/rebel_with_a_misguided_cause_how_madoka_magica/

hyperknees91 said:
More than likely Homura and Kyubey's lack of intelligence came because of the unplanned nature of the movie. It's a total bummer, and reading your guys responses just makes me more depressed on how this movie went down for her character.

Sigh her blatant obsession with Madoka has ruined her entire character. The movie would have been better if it was about getting over that part of her life then anything. Season 2 will have to focus on this, or have a cop out ending.

hyperknees91 said:
Shinbo and Uro have the same favorite character? That's pretty funny...but makes sense as she was obviously given the most attention in terms of character development.

I think making Homura a seperate character is still pretty much ruining her, it means you just got bored of old homura and just wanted her to do something interesting. Feels silly and just a plain cop out for attention from fans.

I don't doubt that Sayaka will be the main in the next show. Unfortunately Madoka's role and reason in the first has already been stepped all over and the whole show was pointless because of this movie so might as well not focus on her anymore.

Tachikoma1701 said:


Yeh, Madoka was so unhappy about being a goddess, look how she suffered: LOL
http://images.puella-magi.net/f/fc/Puella112_000272-1.jpg?20120301020804
I think that we saw two, very different TV series - in my PMMM , Madoka was unhappy that she was powerless, that she couldn't help others and she wanted to have meaningful life.

Tachikoma1701 said:
As for girls being happy: illusionary and forced happiness is not happiness at all. Lesson learned from history of authoritarian regimes all over the world - those system will eventually fall, no metter how much dictators would want to convince citizens that they are happy. And Homura knows that - she wasn't happy in her illusionary world in "Rebellion", she learned the truth and she couldn't accept this lie. So what make you think that other girls won't have this same realisation? If they won't then there won't be season 2!

Tachikoma1701 said:
And I think that Homura's character was practically ruined: now she is obviously evil, more evil than Kyubey - at least he was using those girls for a greater good, and he respected free will. Homura on the other hand is a thief - she stolen Madoka's power- , betrayer - she practically backstabbed her best and only friend -, kidnaper - she deprived Madoka of her freedom -, liar - she erased people's memories and show them illusionary world -, and dictator - now, everyone is just a doll, in Homura's dollhouse. If this is not evil, then I don't know what is? And if this is only beginning of her reign, if there will be season 2, then this is just a top of the iceberg - because absolute power corrupts absolutely.

Tachikoma1701 said:

And BTW, why you are giving Homura extra rights? Why her wishes should be any more important than wishes of Madoka or Sayaka, or anyone else on the planet? Why should Homura decide how people should live their lives? Why she should dictate how world look like? Who elected Akemi, who give her the right to decide about Madoka's fate? Should we agree with this Evil Queen, just because she is currently stronger, than anyone else in the universe? Might make it right? Then why don't agree with Kim Jong Un or Hitler? In fact it's funny that her name is Akemi Homura, work a little with it, and you will get, "good" old Adolf... And yes, he also wanted to make German people happy. And you know, what's funny? Homura would agree with me - she knows that what she is doing is wrong, that's why she calls herself the devil, and that's why she hate herself.

Faust91x said:
Actually you can interpret Homura that way and is valid, Tachikoma1701. That was the entire point of Rebellion. If you think she's evil, you're right. If you think she's the true victim, you're right too. The movie was meant to be that way.

And she was never meant to be the Messiah, that is Madoka's schtick.

What I didn't like was how contrived the story was so that the plot could work. Starting with how Homura broke her oath to protect Madoka's world so fast it was underwhelming and I believe it was months because Tatsuya looked as young as in the series.

How in the end there was nothing more than Madoka to her, makes her less dimensional and how she was willing to obey the Madoka in the barrier when it could just be an illusion or be a brainwashed version of her. As you said, she never in the series mentioned discomfort with the idea and was willing to do the right thing and stand her ground for once, that was what the 12 episodes of development were about. The conversation was just way too convenient as an explanation that I felt the scene was put there just to justify the ending.

Homura was less intelligent than in the series. I expected her to analyze why there was a Madoka in the barrier which was the biggest impossibility rather than going against Charlotte. Or question Kyubey, she knows better than anyone else that he is very sneaky.

Kyubey too was felt more stupid in the movie. I would have at least put an explosive on Homura's Soul Gem so that if Homura went against me, her Soul Gem would be annihilated. If he has tech that can interfere with Universal Laws, I'm sure he could have designed something to stop the experiment or at least try to disable it if they rebelled against him. Then I'd pack my things and restart the experiment on another Puella Magi. He had no qualms on experimenting, it was only basic scientific procedure to set safeguards if God decided he doesn't like me playing with his charges.

Well I decided to compile all my thoughts and poison in a single page so that I don't have to reconstruct them from scratch :P:

http://faust91xroleplayingpage.weebly.com/1/post/2014/02/my-thoughts-on-puella-magi-rebellion-story.html

EDIT: Just read the review you posted and agree with it wholeheartedly. The execution was wrong, but oh well...what's done is done.

ElPysCongroo said:


And that actually make no sense: Madoka didn't hurt Homura, quite the contrary - she could be her salvation of all other Magical Girl, only Homura selflessly rejected this salvation. And only time Madoka ever said something like that is when she have no memories of the previous events, so she is not this same person that she was in the end of the episode 12. Also Madoka is not as selfless as you think she is - helping other people was making her happy, that was what she really wanted.



Yes, she does! Did Madoka wanted to be removed from her position as a goddess? No, she didn't, if I remember correctly she begged Homura not to do this. Also invading people minds and foreign their moemories is absolutely against free will, it's something from "1984" novel. Also changing physical reality without asking people if they want to live in this new, "improved" world is also action against free will. And it's funny that you want to justify Homura's actions as something moral in this same time you want to argue that her soul gem is corrupted and she is essentially a witch - witches are monsters from the Id, they are by their very nature evil, so Homura's actions can't be good if she is a Witch. And wanting to create "happy" dictatorship, is nothing good - dictatorship is still oppressive system, no metter how you look at this. And Sayaka said what she said only for now - wait for a season 2! She said also that this world is unstable and she called Homura a demon - so she don't have highest opinion about Akemi and her new creation.



No it isn't. Some actions are evil, some are good. If you are want to argue that is otherwise, then prove it. If you say that good and evil are not moral absulutes, then you can't blame Kyubey for what he did - very OOC behavior BTW, TV show Kyubey would never did that. So "torturing" Homura is evil, but Homura betraying, kidnapping, lying and being a dictator is morally justifiable? Exactly why?
As for limitating free will - yes, Homura did this to Madoka, and she did this to other characters by invading their minds and changing their memories, as well changing physical world withouth asking people if they want this changes or not? And again I ask: why Homura's wishes should be more important than anyone else's wishes? Madoka's life is her life, and she can make her own decisions and Akemi have no right to change them - there are not her decisions to make. And again Madoka was happy in episode 12 - once again look at this picture, and tell me that is not truth? :
http://images.puella-magi.net/f/fc/Puella112_000272-1.jpg?20120301020804




Godwins law is completely arbitrary so it's invalid argument. Also respond to my question" why Homura's wishes should be more important than anyone else's wishes? Why you are advocating for dictatorship?

ElPysCongroo said:
Good and evil are purely subjective, true their are some things most people share the same ideals on what they are but its pretty much down to individual interpretation.
I will also make this clear again, Homura does NOT take away anyone's free will, if anything she makes the world a better place than before the tv series and after tv series.
Madoka also recreated the universe when she made her wish as well, and I can't remember anyone agreeing with her to change the universe, in this process everyone loses their memories of their previous incarnation, which is essentially all Homura does as well.
Also if Homura didn't do it, the incubators would eventually find a way to trap Madoka and steal her powers it is an inevitability as they would have an infinite amount of time to be able to achieve with the universe now being infinite and all.

And even if you ignore all that and still make Homura out to be a evil, then so what? It doesn't lessen her character in anyway, the descent of a hero going into villainy is hardly ever shown not in flashbacks form.

Tachikoma1701 said:
You see, here's the thing... I don't think that making Homura the devil, was the entire point of "Rebellion", because we know for a fact that originally, film have very different, more optimistic ending."Rebellion" wasn't designed to be a reinterpretation of "Paradise lost", if anything it was designed to be an epilogue to TV series, heavily inspired by both magical girls shows - first 30 minutes - and "Matrix" - entire concept of mind trapped in illusionary world, bullet time battle batween Mami and Homura etc.
So, in a way "Rebellion" is like lady with a dog's head ;) :
http://johnnyjung04.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz1.jpg
this ending sticks out like a sore thumb - it's attached to a movie, which is an epilogue of PMMM series, not a new beginning! That's why I think Homura's transformation is so clumsily written - it wasn't planned and written in advance, so you can't really say that the movie was designed with a purpose of making you think about Homura's tragic fate, because original ending wasn't that tragic to begin with. So I don't think that movie was meant to be that way... As I said before only good think about this transformation is that it's psychologically believable - Homura knows that what's she done is evil, and she hates herself for that. That was a good thing - I admit that.

hyperknees91 said:
Well it's just what is good to someone might be evil to someone else mainly.

For example say murdering people is in general, regarded as evil by several people. However some people have to take anothers life in self defense or a person can be assigned the death penalty. However in general, this is not regarded as evil even though it has the same consequence. It's things like that where the grey area kind of blends in.

FierceAlchemist said:

You're wrong about Rebellion being a mere epilogue. Look at what Urobuchi said in this interview from April 2012: http://www.animenewsnetwork.com/convention/2012/sakura-con/14

"The original idea was to have a concluding story within the original series but through producer Iwakami and director Akiyuki Shinbo's enthusiastic support we decided we wanted something expandable as a world and concept. We wanted to make it have more breadth and be a bridge to the world view within the series and the franchise."

It was always meant to be something that expanded the world, not a concluding story. He also says in this interview (http://feral-phoenix.livejournal.com/685568.html) that Homura becoming the devil was an idea he agreed with and was in the script from the very first draft. There is no evidence to suggest that it was a last minute decision. Urobuchi's original ending was conceived while they were still in the planning stages, it never made it into the script at all.

FierceAlchemist said:

People only cling to it because they like the happy ending more than the complex ending Rebellion gave us.

Tachikoma1701 said:

You see, here's the thing... I don't think that making Homura the devil, was the entire point of "Rebellion", because we know for a fact that originally, film have very different, more optimistic ending."Rebellion" wasn't designed to be a reinterpretation of "Paradise lost", if anything it was designed to be an epilogue to TV series, heavily inspired by both magical girls shows - first 30 minutes - and "Matrix" - entire concept of mind trapped in illusionary world, bullet time battle batween Mami and Homura etc.
So, in a way "Rebellion" is like lady with a dog's head ;) :
http://johnnyjung04.files.wordpress.com/2010/09/zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz1.jpg
this ending sticks out like a sore thumb - it's attached to a movie, which is an epilogue of PMMM series, not a new beginning! That's why I think Homura's transformation is so clumsily written - it wasn't planned and written in advance, so you can't really say that the movie was designed with a purpose of making you think about Homura's tragic fate, because original ending wasn't that tragic to begin with. So I don't think that movie was meant to be that way... As I said before only good think about this transformation is that it's psychologically believable - Homura knows that what's she done is evil, and she hates herself for that. That was a good thing - I admit that.

But point I was trying to make was not that characters were dumber than they were in TV series, or that they were simply written out of characters, no. Point I was trying to make was that it's next to impossible, to try to defend Homura's actions, to say that what she did was good or at least that it wasn't evil. Every time you try to do this you are advocating for dictatorship. Now, Homura is essentially a Big brother; she is invading human's minds and changing what people remember and what they think - if you read "1984" you will see that controlling what people think and what they remembered, give you nothing less than ultimate power over people. Now, she is all about power and control. And what she is doing is not even done in the name of the greater good - it's all done just to make this one person "happy". Kyubey was not only more moral than this but also his actions created interesting ethical dilemma - you can't really dismiss the notion that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, but at the same time you have to ask yourself if you can justify suffering of all those girls with utalitarism? Homura's actions, didn't create such dilemma - not only her actions are aimed against free will, but also can't be really justifiable because they are notserving the greater good. So she is only character in franchise that can be called evil, even though she is tragic and pitiful character - tragic villain, is villain nonetheless.

ElPysCongroo said:

And even if you ignore all that and still make Homura out to be a evil, then so what? It doesn't lessen her character in anyway, the descent of a hero going into villainy is hardly ever shown not in flashbacks form.

Faust91x said:
I agree that her descent is psychologically believable, but I felt the plot was tweaked to make it believable rather than letting it flow like a natural progression. For example as I wrote before, the conversation with the fake Madoka is way too convenient and only appears once, and what's worse, Homura accepts what that Madoka says without considering that:

a) She didn't have her memories.
b) She could be an illusion expressing Homura's inner desires. Logical given what we have seen of witch barriers in the series.
c) She could be a hologram or something made by the Incubators to fool her.

She doesn't take the time to check if she is really Madoka, just accepts what she says and interprets it on her own way.

ElPysCongroo said:


You have to remember Homura is pretty much a witch at this point or the very least a mg with a fully corrupted soul gem, so its fair reason to say that Homura isn't going to be thinking rationally.

Faust91x said:
I agree that her descent is psychologically believable, but I felt the plot was tweaked to make it believable rather than letting it flow like a natural progression. For example as I wrote before, the conversation with the fake Madoka is way too convenient and only appears once, and what's worse, Homura accepts what that Madoka says without considering that:

a) She didn't have her memories.
b) She could be an illusion expressing Homura's inner desires. Logical given what we have seen of witch barriers in the series.
c) She could be a hologram or something made by the Incubators to fool her.

She doesn't take the time to check if she is really Madoka, just accepts what she says and interprets it on her own way.

FierceAlchemist said:

But we learn in the film that it is the real Madoka, just a Madoka without her powers or memories, probably best compared to the Madoka we saw in episode 10, the one who saved Homura. She hasn’t experienced the tragedy Madoka did in the TV show and learned the truth about magical girls. And Homura knows this.

Madoka says, “That is right, Homura-chan Sayaka-chan, Mami-san, Kyouko-chan, papa, mama, Tatsuya and Hitomi-chan and the rest of the class, I don't want to part with any of you. Even if that is something I must do, I would not have the courage to go through when the time comes.” A few lines later, Homura says, “I know, that you are kind to everyone and not afraid of making choices. When you feel that there is something that only you can do, you would not hesitate even if it means hurting yourself.”

FierceAlchemist said:

Homura knows that if this version of Madoka were put through the same circumstances as the Madoka of the TV show, she would make the same decisions. Homura knows how brave and selfless Madoka is, even if this Madoka doesn’t believe it. But notice how Homura says, “even if it means hurting yourself.” Madoka’s own words have confirmed what Homura’s felt for a long time, that Madoka becoming the Law of Cycles wasn’t the best outcome for Madoka. Of course she misses her friends and family, how couldn’t she? Of course it was a sacrifice for her. Now I believe Madoka found a certain kind of happiness being the Law of Cycles but giving up her existence definitely was not the ideal scenario for Madoka or Homura. I think Madoka’s wish was pretty much the best she could’ve come up with in episode 12 given the circumstances, but it was not a happy ending, it was bittersweet.

Also, although we the audience view the Madoka from the TV show as the “true Madoka,” let’s remember that to Homura who traveled through all those timelines, every version of Madoka is just as real as any other. She’s also obeying the will of the Madoka from the 3rd timeline who asked her to “keep foolish me from getting tricked by Kyubey”. I think in Homura’s mind, the combined beliefs of those two Madokas and her own selfish desire to be with Madoka justify her actions, even though she obviously feels horribly guilty about the whole thing.

Faust91x said:
We the audience know its the real Madoka because of the information given by Urobuchi, but there was no way for Homura to know that by that point unless she has some magical detection abilities.

What I argued was that up to that point for all Homura knew that could have been simply an expression of her barrier or a machination by the Incubator or an external agent such as Kriemhild Gretchen.

Still ElPsyCongroo argued that Homura could believe that because Homura may have been clouded by despair, which fits Sayaka's behaviour on episode 8 and too desperate to fight back. But plot wise, I still stand that Homura has no way to prove that's really Madoka, even if we know and thus if she didn't have the excuse of her memories being cloudy by her barrier and despair, didn't make an intelligent decision by not making sure first that she wasn't imagining things.