What is the worth of Neon Genesis Evangelion?
It is made of excellence and deserves to be on our Enlightenment list.
75.6%
31
It is too unremarkable to be on either of our lists.
4.9%
2
It is vastly overrated and deserves to be on our Relations list.
19.5%
8
41 votes
| The war has begun. Pick a side and don't let up. There will be no survivors. Please remember that with the new voting system ONLY YOUR WRITTEN RESPONSE WILL BE COUNTED. Be sure to clearly state which option you chose at the top of your post or else your vote will not be counted. You must also provide a brief explanation for why you chose the answer you did. PLEASE DO NOT VOTE IF YOU HAVE NOT SEEN THE ENTIRE SERIES. This poll will close in 7 days. BEGIN! |
Ducat_RevelApr 14, 2013 4:41 PM
| Option number 1. NGE is waaaaay too pretentious, has a few important flaws and is known to attract some overly zealous fanboys. However, it is a requirement for any serious anime watcher and - despite its convoluted and pseudo-religious cover - has a simple message behind it it reasonably achieves to deliver, features great directing and has popularized several tropes (if that's good or bad is something you should decide for yourself). So yeah, more a vote for influence than a vote for quality. |
NidhoeggrApr 8, 2013 9:00 AM
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| Option Nr.3 NGE is a grievously overrated, pretentious OMG I AM SO HARDCORE 'N DEEP picoblahblah with one of the most annoying wangst-fest I've ever seen in any anime and the rabid/blinkered fanboyz are annoying as hell... The Jewish-Christian symbolism? They used it, because it's cool. They didn't have any actual goal with it. The design? Octaeder-angels are also coooool~. The fanservice? Asuka's boobs are the symbols of youth so as Shinji's erection in the hospital. The execution? Just plain bad. So: Option 3 is my choice. |
Use your brain before using your keyboard!  |
| I was originally going to go for option 2. But Junchi just made this more fun. Option 3. Purely a qualitative vote. I agree this is a requirement for any decent anime fan, but it fails at a structural level. Like Junchi said, the religious symbolism had no proper connection to the mecha story itself. It added some misplaced depth which can be looked at positively, but in all honesty, is far too out-of-place. The angst is too much though. The drama is dislocated from the pace the show. Good drama is subtly set up and is gradually built on, but this just starts off batshit whiny from the get-go. |
Ducat_Revel said: I was originally going to go for option 2. But Junchi just made this more fun. Option 3. Purely a qualitative vote. I agree this is a requirement for any decent anime fan, but it fails at a structural level. Like Junchi said, the religious symbolism had no proper connection to the mecha story itself. It added some misplaced depth which can be looked at positively, but in all honesty, is far too out-of-place. The angst is too much though. The drama is dislocated from the pace the show. Good drama is subtly set up and is gradually built on, but this just starts off batshit whiny from the get-go. |
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| Option 1 NGE is an essential watch for any anime fan. If ANYTHING is to be put for historical value on our enlightment list (such as overrated stuff like Akira) then NGE needs to be put there because: 1) People still argue about Eva 18 years after it finished airing. 2) Eva is still among the most popular shows 18 years after it finished airing. 3) It is THE polarizing anime. >So yeah, more a vote for influence than a vote for quality This. Arguing about its quality is utterly pointless from my point of view as it's more a show that tries to impress the viewer than anything else - both positively or negatively. My enjoyment for this series is pretty high and I think it's good, but that doesn't really affect my initial choice of enlightment as I'm judging on its influence. |
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| Option 1. NGE was not enlightening only for the audience, it was also enlightening for the anime universe/industry itself. It simply took it to the next level. Thus, analysing and rating each NGE aspect separately sounds off-topic. Blaming it for the way symbolisms were used is a non-sense since no anime ever went this way and that far before NGE, same for the fanservice since the concept did not even exist at this time and also came way later. It's a classic, and all classics have their flaws and imperfections, and focusing on those is like ... how is it in english ? "The wise man points at the sky, the fool looks at the finger" or something like that. NGE brought great characters and strong development, unique plot/story, original and intense mecha battles, unpredictable story evolution, etc ... etc ... etc ... all of this in a 100% unique and relevent approach, wether you like it or not. By the way, if fanboys are counterproductive, same goes for anti-fanboys. |
| My list - "Let's share our lame sides" (Danshi Koukousei no Nichijou) |
| without doubt option 1 my opinion is similar to Valkyrion and Sh0wdown opinions Also even now the depth of characterisation in Evangelion is exceptional Try searching "Evangelion analysis" on Google, you'll get a lot of results, Evangelion makes people think more than any other anime since 18 years, it is an anime made for enlightment, even if you dislike it. |
| Option 1. I agree with Nid. It has been tremendously influential in the anime industry. Its quality is in question, without a doubt, but its existence has affected the so many of the series that I truly like. Without it, many series would be very different or not even exist. It also created the first moe character, Rei Ayanami, which I do not think is a good thing... but it was influential. |
| Is influence really enough to deem a show enlightening? I agree that NGE is a "must-watch" but is that actually what a critic would use to support the claim of a show being amazing? No. A critic should support the claim with a qualitative defense. Just because a show made a splash and played a part in the development of anime today does not warrant it critical acclaim. In fact, I think that to praise NGE solely because it's a classic is the critic's version of a pleb praising a show for its hype. There needs to be a substantial defense to prove that a series is great. shiranui51 said: Try searching "Evangelion analysis" on Google, you'll get a lot of results I did. I read a lot of pointless gargle by doing that but I have to admit I saw a few interesting analyses as well. The paper that used Lacan was definitely my favorite but it still came off as an attempt to justify NGE's quality. The paper succeeded in proving that NGE works on some level but the truth is, NGE fails at the most fundamental level. The surface level. The transition of events (especially the character twists) come out of no where, and all the junk that Seele was plotting had no proper grounding. The themes did not coincide with the inner struggles of the characters (making it a thematic clusterfuck). And the ending was masturbatory at best. The reason I think that there are so much analyses on NGE is because its ideas are scattered and all over the place, and people just like trying to sort it out. A good show makes one think, not do the thinking for it. |
Ducat_RevelApr 8, 2013 9:47 AM
| Option 1 While NGE may be pretentious, and it's religious symbolism may be for shock factor, I will say a common factor other members have said. NGE makes you think more than most anime. Much like the RPG, Xenogears and another mech series, The Big O, NGE has many confusing parts, along with some unexplained elements. But this allows the viewers to make their own conclusions and form their own theories. Not many series can do that, but NGE does it in one of the best ways. |
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Ducat_Revel said: Is influence really enough to deem a show enlightening? I agree that NGE is a "must-watch" but is that actually what a critic would use to support the claim of a show being amazing? No. A critic should support the claim with a qualitative defense. Just because a show made a splash and played a part in the development of anime today does not warrant it critical acclaim. In fact, I think that to praise NGE solely because it's a classic is the critic's version of a pleb praising a show for its hype. There needs to be a substantial defense to prove that a series is great. shiranui51 said: Try searching "Evangelion analysis" on Google, you'll get a lot of results I did. I read a lot of pointless gargle by doing that but I have to admit I saw a few interesting analyses as well. The paper that used Lacan was definitely my favorite but it still came off as an attempt to justify NGE's quality. The paper succeeded in proving that NGE works on some level but the truth is, NGE fails at the most fundamental level. The surface level. The transition of events (especially the character twists) come out of no where, and all the junk that Seele was plotting had no proper grounding. The themes did not coincide with the inner struggles of the characters (making it a thematic clusterfuck). And the ending was masturbatory at best. The reason I think that there are so much analyses on NGE is because its ideas are scattered and all over the place, and people just like trying to sort it out. A good show makes one think, not do the thinking for it. I agree that popular and "must watch" is often used as a reason to justify a lot of crap (SAO, Naruto, etc.). However, unlike 95% of these shows Evangelion did actually have an impact on the industry. Evangelion is the one of the very few exception I'm willing to allow on the Enlightenment list just because people should've watched it and made up their mind about it. My rating for the series constantly fluctuates as well because I find it hard to qualify. Still, the arguments for option 3 are more than justified and I am fine with every possible result. So take my vote as a preference towards option 1, nothing more. |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| Option 1. Everyone has pretty much already said it, but, NGE changed the entire Mech genre. It turned it upside down in the form of deconstruction and from then on, everyone just ran with it. Not only did it change the entire mech genre, but it also popularized the idea of genre deconstruction. You likely would not have things like Madoka without this series. |
| Option 1 When something is influential, it's important to consider why. NGE has too much substance. The mecha fights and normal character interactions have something to contribute, but on their own they're not enough, and the show lapses into people sitting on a train talk-talk-talking about their psychological problems. It's almost too complicated for its own good. And I think that's the key; I think the source of its influence is that its complexity stands out, even if it was poorly executed. I also think creators of later anime such as Noein and Digimon Tamers took note of what it did well, which is its raw complexity, because they both have Evangelion elements in them. When you combine that with better storytelling like in the two aforementioned anime, you get something awesome. I know that without Evangelion, some of my favorites would not exist. And although a parent cannot live vicariously through their child, Evangelion can claim some credit for passing on good genes and good lessons to later generations. |
| @Ducat I'm not going to counter-reply other's opinions since that's not what critics do but instead point out what's truly good about Evangelion. Writing this reminded me why it's still among my favourites and what I liked about it Please remember that the relations list are mostly worthless shows, and that Eva shouldn't be paired up with them solely for its value. Being able to influence people's opinions isn't really something every show is able to do, and this alone makes it far from worthless. I hope I don't have to reply to anyone... |
ValkqtApr 8, 2013 12:04 PM
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Amberleh said: Option 1. Everyone has pretty much already said it, but, NGE changed the entire Mech genre. It turned it upside down in the form of deconstruction and from then on, everyone just ran with it. Not only did it change the entire mech genre, but it also popularized the idea of genre deconstruction. You likely would not have things like Madoka without this series. I know this question is going to bite me back but I have to ask, what exactly makes Eva a deconstruction of the Mecha genre? It lacks the politics of a Real Robot show and the themes of a Super Robot show. I think Eva is an entirely different beast. Rather than deconstructing mecha, it introduced something new. |
Ducat_Revel said: Amberleh said: Option 1. Everyone has pretty much already said it, but, NGE changed the entire Mech genre. It turned it upside down in the form of deconstruction and from then on, everyone just ran with it. Not only did it change the entire mech genre, but it also popularized the idea of genre deconstruction. You likely would not have things like Madoka without this series. I know this question is going to bite me back but I have to ask, what exactly makes Eva a deconstruction of the Mecha genre? It lacks the politics of a Real Robot show and the themes of a Super Robot show. I think Eva is an entirely different beast. Rather than deconstructing mecha, it introduced something new. It is widely known to be a deconstruction of the mech genre. I'm lazy and tired so I'll just copy-paste the entry on TV tropes: |
| @Amber I know it was regarded as one, but I wasn't too sure which side of mecha it was deconstructing. A deconstruction of Super Robot makes sense to me. The thing with Amuro isn't 100% on target though, but even TV tropes made it clear that it was a loose association. Alright. @Valkyrion I voted option 3 because things are more fun that way I don't think NGE is anywhere close to "unremarkable". It's an incredibly ambitious anime that has multiple layers to it. It still failed surface-wise so I can't say it's enlightening. So I voted option 3 as it is an extremely notable structural failure. |
| Option 1. My opinion on this matter may hold little weight considering I have not even seen a lick of mecha to fully appreciate it the way most praise this series for being the deconstruction anime that Neon Genesis Evangelion happens to be. However, I feel it is my duty, per-say, to defend and justify why NGE is enlightenment worthy from a different angle. To me, I believe NGE did a fantastic job conveying its presented themes. Ranging from the struggle within one's self to the struggle of understanding each other. The most astounding reason I hold this show in such high regard was because the writing in NGE really made me connect, and in some cases, emphasize with Shinji (obviously I'm not piloting super mecha or anything...). This trait of this anime was quite different from the norm. Rather than plainly feeling sympathy from a sob story of Clannad, NGE really hit a few nerves that really made me, in a cheesy way, reevaluate my everyday life. What is the reason for what I do such duty? Is it because I have to? Is it because I do it for selfish praise from others? Those presented questions brought up some rather interesting concepts that can be applied to society itself, and because of the applicability, those questions offer what many tend to not question themselves; I feel as though interesting social commentary is subtly conveyed. Even more so, I consider it enlightening to see the 'better' wimpy male lead take form. You know, the one that actually has justified reasons for his timidness. Battle after battle, us the viewers witness Shinji's spiral into despair slowly eat away at him. Sure, on the surface, it appears it just becomes repetitive, but these battles really showcased a convincing traumatized protagonist. The most striking battle still etched into mind is the battle with Unit 03. Won't go into specifics of course, but that right there marks some pivotal character development. One last point I'll end on is this: few anime will make you want to look up what you just saw. With Evangelion, sure, I am aware there are arguments that all that symbolism merely meant nothing, as it was Anno's intent to include those because of the mysterious presence of Christianity in Japan, and as others have pointed out, it was for the 'cool' factor. However, I would be lying here if I felt intrigued by the other side of things for a more complex story offered beyond the anime; in fact, I learned a thing or two that I never heard of before. Because of that, I believe NGE has genuine value simply because of the way it holds the viewers' attention even after the their first watch is done. In the process, it just makes a re-watch that much worth the trouble~ Again, that was my best way to tackle this more than its influential mark on anime (I am an anime newbie still). ACTUALLY! I can see what everyone means when they say it's influential! Example: And with that, let's see how this battle will go! PS- How about adding Evangelion 3.0 to the relation list? |
ShoryuApr 9, 2013 11:39 AM
 Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
| If 3.0 is as horrible as some people say I'm all for adding it ;) |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
Nidhoeggr said: If 3.0 is as horrible as some people say I'm all for adding it ;) I may be over exaggerating it, considering that I dropped it at the 30min mark. I mean, maybe it's actually a good movie, but since I'm so blind sided by the parent NGE story...3.0 just was too much to take in :T |
Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
| Option 3 NGE gave me an idea on what Anime should NOT be. Although clouded with quite a number of symbolism about life and all, I still could not find anything remarkable about it. I agree with Ducat that it is ambitious to the point that it forgot to fill in quite a number of holes and also left us with a lot of questions. However, I do not understand what the hype is all about. It is clearly inhumane and disturbing to many of the viewers, yet they continue to say that it is quite enlightening and amazing, and that "this is the best mecha anime ever". However, I still believe that any anime fan should watch this so they would understand to what crazy extent anime could go. To put things simply, I voted option 3 because it's ambitiousness has caused it to fail structurally and, although it drastically changed the mech genre, should not be seen as the god of all mecha (as what it's fans says that is) |
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tsudecimo said: Ducat_Revel said: I was originally going to go for option 2. But Junchi just made this more fun. Option 3. Purely a qualitative vote. I agree this is a requirement for any decent anime fan, but it fails at a structural level. Like Junchi said, the religious symbolism had no proper connection to the mecha story itself. It added some misplaced depth which can be looked at positively, but in all honesty, is far too out-of-place. The angst is too much though. The drama is dislocated from the pace the show. Good drama is subtly set up and is gradually built on, but this just starts off batshit whiny from the get-go. I get he said what you thought, but you still need to voice your own thoughts. Quoting someone else does not count as voting so until you make a proper post your vote will not be counted. |
| @Amber How long must the post be? There were a few asking if writing anything lengthy was mandatory. |
| Addressing the length of posts/quoting someone, what about some of the poters here voicing their opinion without NGE shown 26/26 completed in their list? |
Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
Tavor said: what about some of the poters here voicing their opinion without NGE shown 26/26 completed in their list? Their votes shouldn't count, I believe we agreed to that. |
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| Option 3, I'll say why tomorrow, for today I have more important matters to think about. I seriously mean tomorrow... hopefully |
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metamorphius said: Tavor said: what about some of the poters here voicing their opinion without NGE shown 26/26 completed in their list? Their votes shouldn't count, I believe we agreed to that. Just seems to go unnoticed, but never mind, I'm sure those little details get sorted out at the end. SSC_Exin said: Option 3, I'll say why tomorrow, for today I have more important matters to think about. I seriously mean tomorrow... hopefully I look forward to your post quite honestly. |
Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
Tavor said: Yeah, sorry. I finished it last week before this poll started but I forgot to update my list.Addressing the length of posts/quoting someone, what about some of the poters here voicing their opinion without NGE shown 26/26 completed in their list? |
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| It is vastly overrated and deserves to be on our Relations list. (your vote) I think the anime in itself is not good sure it had an impact on the anime industry and mecha anime and made some character tropes popular but the show in itself doesn't deserve that much praise. The show is just too pretentious and uses religious themes and idioms for no particular reason since it doesn't add much to the main story. I get that Shinji is the main character but the amount of screen time and development dedicated to him is ridiculous as if the other characters are just mere plot devices to contribute more to his development . The story in itself is not interesting imo and overused in story telling ( Earth is attacked by unknown creatures for unexplained reasons earth fights back etc..). The story starts with angel of the week kind of thing which get repetitive really fast and then implement more drama as the show goes on. I found it confusing to say the least and gave too many questions without answers The anime didn't have any impact on me I didn't feel depressed , sad or angry only bored. |
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| Option 1 NGE is a fine anime that can be recommended to mature viewers, it has its pretentious holes but it totally depends on a viewers perspective and understanding, if you understand the depth it relayed then you will be able to enjoy but as for me well since I enjoy sci-fi with logical construction I'll go for Option 1. |
"Deep." |
| Totally agree with Option 1. Dude, leave all your prejudgements and watch it. Evangelion hated or not, was one of 90's masterpiece and also, we can say that there are animes pre-evangelion and post-evangelion. |
| The word masterpiece is tossed around too loosely. Eva left its mark and helped influence a lot of future titles, but the gratitude it gets is a bit excessive. It wasn't the only 90s title to shape anime. I'd say that anime today should thank the 90s as a whole rather than a specific title, just like post-modern writers should praise the modernist era rather than a single piece of work (let's say Ulysses for example). NGE has a lot of faults that it needs to man up to so using its impact alone as grounds of it being a "masterpiece" isn't all that right. Also, anime is already plural. |
| Evangelion may not be a masterpiece, but it is certainly a classic that has had influence on the things to come after. I am not going to vote, because, frankly I am neutral when it comes to Evangelion, yet I cannot vote for option 2 since it's definitely not unremarkable. |
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metamorphius said: I cannot vote for option 2 since it's definitely not unremarkable. With Eva, there is no middle ground. |
Ducat_Revel said: metamorphius said: I cannot vote for option 2 since it's definitely not unremarkable. With Eva, there is no middle ground. Exactly. That's why I'll abstain. |
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metamorphius said: Evangelion may not be a masterpiece, but it is certainly a classic that has had influence on the things to come after. I am not going to vote, because, frankly I am neutral when it comes to Evangelion, yet I cannot vote for option 2 since it's definitely not unremarkable. Now that I think about it, this fits my opinion as well. I'll change my vote to neutral with a tendency to option 1 then. |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| "It is made of excellence and deserves to be on our Enlightenment list" Of course it's enlightening, whether you like the show or not Evangelion is pretty much guaranteed to have some sort of impact on you. I think it is very important to recognize how important this series is and it's impact, which it would almost certainly have even if the Rebuilds weren't released in recent years, is still felt to this day. As far as the actual quality of the show, I guess that is up to each individual viewer. Personally, for what it tried to accomplish, it's a triumph and is responsible for my favorite character studies in anime, specifically the characters of Shinji Ikari and Asuka Langley Soryu. But, I get the feeling I'll just be repeating what pretty much every one else who chose option 1 wrote. I think one thing that is interesting to mention is, of course, Hideaki Anno and his well documented mental state during the making of this show. To me this series is an interesting example of how a creator's thoughts and feelings can shape his work. Evangelion is not a perfect series and, as much as it is my personal favorite anime TV series it isn't a masterpiece and it certainly has flaws (the story being all but dropped in the last two episodes, for example) but I think it over comes them with the substance of the characters and the excellent End of Evangelion. That said, I'm perfectly happy with End of Evangelion being on the Enlightenment list already so, as long as this series doesn't end up in the relations list, which with a series this split in opinions it is a very real possibility, I'm cool. Hopefully I didn't come across as too much of a stark raving mad fanboy, haha. |
| "Yes, I have been deprived of emotion. But not completely. Whoever did it, botched the job." - Geralt of Rivia |
metamorphius said: Ducat_Revel said: metamorphius said: I cannot vote for option 2 since it's definitely not unremarkable. With Eva, there is no middle ground. Exactly. That's why I'll abstain. I abstain as well. If this ends up Enlightened, there will be almost immediate attempts to remove it. If this ends up Relations, there will be almost immediate attempts to remove it. It does not belong in Unremarkable simply because it is so controversial. So....the discussion of NGE will go on for another 18 years. LOL. |
| HMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMMM FuryKury you just gave me a great idea. Evangelion is a special case, I think we can all agree on that fact, right? It is both one of the most influential anime of all time, but on the same note, it is riddled with flaws and therefor also one of the most overrated anime of all time. It is both brilliant and trash. I say we put it on both lists. We talked about doing this with Death Note, but in Death Note's case one half of the series was brilliant while the other half was awful- Put together, this made it 'unremarkable'. Evangelion is not a case like that, I think Evangelion is more worthy of this special treatment than Death Note was because, well, Fury Kury is right- Evangelion can never be considered 'unremarkable'. It is far too controversial for that. I say we tackle it in proper elitist fashion. Those who voted for Enlightenment, like myself, even agreed it is flawed in many ways. Those who voted for Relations also agreed that yes, it is important and influential. Then, unlike with other series, Evangelion has incited a few neutral votes by people who have seen the series, because they cannot decide either way. I think my proposition is the best option for this unique series. What say you, fellow patricians? |
| A compromise? Sounds alright considering that these debates will never cease to stop. In favor of this proposal. |
Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
Amberleh said: I say we put it on both lists. I have no qualms with this, in fact I think it's a pretty good idea. I'm on board with this suggestion. |
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| I''ve never cared much about the Evangelion debate, but I disagree with this solution. Even if Evangelion is the special case among special cases, I think it should go wherever the majority chooses to. Ofc, if there are equal number of votes for both, then I am OK with it being on both lists. |
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Sh0wdown said: I see poll results: 22/1/5. Why would you do that? Polls don't count; our responses do. Do you not agree placing NGE in either list would incite unending debate? |
Just this once, I'll fulfill whatever your wish is. |
Sh0wdown said: I see poll results: 22/1/5. Why would you do that? I already stated why in my post and Fury Kury brought up a good point. Many of us who voted enlightening also agreed it was overrated as well, and visa versa. Then there are also 'neutral' votes, people who are undecided either way. To me, this just seems like the best solution. |
| That actually sounds like a reasonable idea. 1) Both camps get their will. 2) We can troll some idiots who takes this club overly serious. |
| Steel Ball Run anime when? |
| Evangelion has excellent substance, but is muddled in its handling, so if we're going to compare it to Death Note, which is 2/3 good and 1/3 not, that would only leave the influence as the deciding factor, and I don't know how I feel about that. However... Nidhoeggr said: That actually sounds like a reasonable idea. 1) Both camps get their will. 2) We can troll some idiots who takes this club overly serious. Reason #2 has me agreeing with this decision. |
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