jmal said: A whole lot more than a "hint" of truth is required to justify the things you say. We've discussed at length the reasons why KyoAni gets so controversial and what prompts defensiveness but wow I am not going to reproduce all that effort for the nth time. We have been there and done that and you know it. Fair enough, it wouldn't get us anywhere new for sure, I just happen to feel that some negativity towards fandoms ugly sides is justified while you don't. Maybe I'm just that much more cynical and have that much less faith in the intentions of my fellow man though. (I assume the whole thing with Little Busters as an example of what I'm talking about just never happened) Little Busters! was controversial for who got it than even more than who didn't. JC Staff has an awful reputation (undeservedly so I feel), particularly with adaptations. Take the vitriol people feel about JC Staff, plus the huge prominence of the Little Busters franchise, plus breaking continuity from the long and very successful history of Key adaptations, and you add up to inevitable ugliness. If it had gone to a well-liked studio like PA Works there would have been far less angst. Not to mention some of the angst was from people actually bashing KyoAni for choosing not to do it! I think it was a combination of all those factors plus the fact that people just would not accept anyone other than the highly idealized Kyoani taking the project. I think that factor ought to be acknowledged as well. And if any of them said "I'd be happy if Gundam went go away so I didn't have to deal with it" they'd still be a massive jerk. Which is entirely the point. But you already knew that, didn't you? Gundam has it's own sweeping generalizations (it's just a toy commercial for kids) and people who feel it's past it's due date just the same, but a lot of it is also coming from within the Gundam community as well and a lot of biggest jerks are very active therein as opposed to being outsiders. It cannot be denied how ugly I find that community right now and some days I actually find myself wondering if maybe the franchise should end if the community is that miserable. If you think I'm going to turn around and support that community right now you'd be surprised to find you're dead wrong and that I think it deserves just about any criticism it gets. I loathe the current state of the Gundam community and gladly keep my distance nowadays and simply try to enjoy the shows in spite of having almost nobody to do so with. You can say all the ugly things about the Gundam fandom you want right now and I could probably be a lot of truth to it and that's a key area where I think we differ when it comes to how we perceive fandoms. |
| wow, I knew that I would face a firing squad by suggesting changes, but here goes. First: jmal said: They've done three Key VNs already. If they'd done LB I'm sure you can understand there would be a "they never try anything new!" chorus again. Many many people would be happy, yes, but it would do nothing for most of the people who object loudest that their shows are all "the same". You missed my point entirely, I'm advocating for KyoAni to once again adapting popular titles (be it SAO, Little Busters, Accel World, Magi, Biblia Koshodou...etc) anything they can break themselves away from obscure ones lately. Little Busters is just one of my examples, but you picked that one out and labeled me as one of "those people" is disheartening. I really want KyoAni to success, now I'm part of the haters? Second: jmal said: That's a great goal for a smaller independent studio. You mention emulating Sunrise, but I genuinely feel trying to be Sunrise would make them miserable. Sunrise is already great at being Sunrise. Let KyoAni just be KyoAni. If you can't get into any of the shows they release, there are plenty of other studios making plenty of other shows for you to enjoy. I don't think having pretty animation obligates KyoAni to be something they don't want to be. KyoAni is small? I don't think so. They are well above average in size. Where did all the money from Clannad, Haruhi, Lucky Star, and K-On go? I would say they were put into the best animation budget money can buy; just look at how pretty Hyouka, Chu2, and Tamako are. My question is: "Is it wise?" These series are narrowing KyoAni's choices and increasing stigma toward KyoAni that they are only good at "that type" of anime. Imagine that same money being put in SAO, Kurono Basket, or Magi? "Let's KyoAni be KyoAni" is a destructive attitude from the studio's fandom. I will be the devil advocate here by saying that Animation Studios have to change to keep going. If Sunrise's history proves anything, that is diversifying yourself will help you grow bigger. Sunrise basically rejuveniled Mecha series just like KyoAni did with Moe. Then they quickly used the money from Gundam to put on other series like City Hunter, Ranma 1/2, and Bebob that resembled nothing from Mecha. By the time, the industry has begun to saturated itself with Mecha shows such as Evangelion. Sunrise lost competitive advantage from Mecha, but gained audiences in many other genres. One of their next successful shows was a little one known as Inuyasha, that marked the first claim-to-fame of KyoAni as well. xD These anime then gave Sunrise the the money they need to gain back the Mecha market with Code Geass later on. Now, compare it with KyoAni's situation. After the continuous successes of Haruhi, Lucky Star, Clannad, and K-On, instead of using the money to expand their reach out of Moe-focus genre by getting contract for popular adaptions, KyoAni narrowed themselves down to a one specific type of Moe. Nowadays, the industry is once again saturated with Moe, just like with Mecha in the past. The studio's style, while unique, lost its advantages. At the same time, backlashes against KyoAni's Moe style begins to grow stronger. Recent sales for Tamako Market indicates something is wrong with the company's approach. It backs itself into a corner while other companies are aggressively attacking its market. In all, KyoAni may have lost a golden opportunity to become a giant in the anime industry. This is sadly not because of their anime quality but poor choice of adaptions. Jmal, as a fan of KyoAni, would you want it to grow bigger? Right now, they are putting out one or two anime a year, while other companies with roughly the same size putting out two, or three. "Let's KyoAni be KyoAni" is a wrong attitude. The studio should not only produce anime that their core base wants, but also stuffs that are diverse to gain other converts as well. |
ThangLongMar 19, 2013 5:08 PM
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Kaioshin_Sama said: Sunrise is also in a rare position because of it's size, history, reputation, capital and position as a Namco Bandai subsidiary to essentially be it's own content publisher and to deliver a steady stream of it's own original copyrighted franchises. I agree, but Sunrise started out small as well. Then, the way they got bigger was through diversifying their anime Kaioshin_Sama said: Unless Kyoani suddenly has a major turnover in staff or starts to look a little more for outside talent to come in and work with them on a project I expect the ideas, processes and overall output to remain very familiar. That's exactly what I think they should do. Of course, they should not completely abandon their style, just gradually build up expertise in other genres |
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jmal said: The rest of your comments are built on the belief that KyoAni has narrowed rather than expanded their vision. Since I strongly disagree with that fundamental starting premise (and believe we shouldn't impose our values on them), I don't think I should take up your time by replying point by point. We can just disagree on that. I agree. I can see in your earlier post that you thought what they are doing is niche vision. Of course it is a fundamental different in our premise since I'm thinking narrowing vision. What will happen if that niche slowly disappear as the competition get more intense? Another one of our differences is that you are fine with KyoAni right now as it keeps steadying release of similar anime year after year. As long as these anime are good, you think they are successful. I, in the other hand, think that if they are not getting bigger, they are getting smaller. The anime pie is already shrinking, being successful with no money equals disappearance. Moms and Pops stores are successful, but Walmart came to town and destroyed them. If not change, KyoAni will always be like moms and pops store. While other studios like JC staffs, A1, Magalobe are growing day by day |
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| I think it's perfectly healthy for fans of a studio to at times question the path they are following, especially when it starts to diverge from what piques their interest. I also tend to feel that Kyoani shows have a fairly similar tone and feel across the board to them as well as some recurring themes that fuel the argument that everything they do is the same. The things I am talking about are a school setting, a largely cute female centric cast often centered around the most bubbly and naive (at least in your average story they would be seen as such) female and all with a very strong emphasis on the idea of life being laid back and non-threatening with any problems or disagreements between characters largely being of the small misunderstanding variety that are often resolved fairly quickly. I know one person I know refers to their output as being largely of the Rated G Moe variety. Also again I'll believe the recent Tamako Market is a small seller when I see it in writing next week, but I don't expect I shall. |
| Any chance of Vividred Operation season 2? |
jmal said: ThangLong said: While other studios like JC staffs, A1, Magalobe are growing day by day A bit besides the point, but I do want to say that I would hesitate to use Manglobe as an example, as they have yet to put out a show that averaged better than about 3k. They're a bit infamous for it among sales watchers, actually. But in any case, success isn't measured purely by size. There's a necessary place for all sorts of models in the anime industry, not just high-volume studios like A1 ad JC Staff. The industry can only support a small number of those at a time anyway. I don't think there's any evidence that a large-scale consolidation of animation studios is or will be happening. I think this is a misplaced concern, personally. Thank you for your response. I'm sorry if I said any thing out of line. Personally, I'm disappointed that they missed such opportunity to be something big. But, just like you said, they indeed found a niche to be on. If that's the way they decided to run their business, so be it. There is certainly a place for them in the anime industry for a foreseeable future. |
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ThangLong said: Well, if keeping with a studio animation style while trying to apply the style to different genre (absurd comedy in Nichijou, mainstream evening neighborhood comedy in Tamako) that is not another K-On and not really tried by other studios is not "breaking grounds" I wonder what it is. I mean, moe may be stigma to some, but it is also a valid art style to many others. And there are not that many studios that can invoke a clear image of its style as good as KyoAni (and Ghibli I would add). KyoAni these days is just going around, picking up some obscures titles while studios like JC Staff and A1 keep stocking up popular adaptations. It's not "breaking grounds" if you pick up obscure titles, but then still use the same old drawing styles and plot devices tainted by the Moe stigma that people have come to associate KyoAni with. ThangLong said: You can call KyoAni as stubborn to be sticking to a path on its own, but personally I am glad that there is a studio which believes in itself and tries not to be swayed so much by the tide of pouplar LN/VN/manga adaptation.I'm disappointed considering how much potential had been wasted when KyoAni not adapting popular stuffs out there like SAO or Little Buster. Imagine what would have turned out for those series. KyoAni needs a change of direction, and fast. |
symbvMar 20, 2013 5:55 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
Kaioshin_Sama said: You basically described the general slice-of-life school comedy genre, but then while we certainly see these elements being used in KyoAni's anime, it is not like they all fit only in that mold - the point of Nichijou is less about laid back life resolving small misunderstanding, it is about absurd comedy; a lot of focus of Tamako is outside school, and the new ground I see is the extension of the "laid back" slice-of-life concept to a neighborhood instead of just within the school, just like some live-action TV comedy in Japan do; Disappearance of Haruhi of course involves serious problem and mental struggles faced by the characters, and we see similar attempt to cover that in Chunibyou; and while in Hyouka one girl gets the most attention (as is the case for many midnight anime these days), the focus is actually a group of 2 guys and 2 girls, hardly female centric cast I'd say. So all these just go back to my original point: To those who are not fan of its style, everything it does look the same, but to those who are discerning they are trying something new all the time while trying to stay close to the style they have spent a lot of time and effort to establish. If anything, I think they deliberately picked up more obscure titles just so that fans' expectation would not be so conditioned by the source material. I also tend to feel that Kyoani shows have a fairly similar tone and feel across the board to them as well as some recurring themes that fuel the argument that everything they do is the same. The things I am talking about are a school setting, a largely cute female centric cast often centered around the most bubbly and naive (at least in your average story they would be seen as such) female and all with a very strong emphasis on the idea of life being laid back and non-threatening with any problems or disagreements between characters largely being of the small misunderstanding variety that are often resolved fairly quickly. I know one person I know refers to their output as being largely of the Rated G Moe variety. Actually I remember hearing some westerners who just cannot stop hating anime, and for them all the anime "look the same". And I remember hearing some people this side of the world (Japanese, Chinese etc) who find the western "superhero" stuff all "look the same". While you and I all know this is not true, there is the question of why they'd think this way. Many answers can be given, some of them can be very long, but at the end it is fair to say that if they don't like it in the first place and they allow themselves to be trapped in their bias, this is a natural conclusion for them to arrive, even if they have already watched/read a couple of titles in the genre. |
symbvMar 20, 2013 5:53 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| Gintama,s new opening is so great! No wonder it is in top on the cd lists |
| How I love a game |
Kaioshin_Sama said: Besides what jmal said, I want to point out a few things too:I guess you can count me as another one of those people that sees the Kyoani fanbase as crazy devoted and who has the hunch that no matter what their output it will sell respectably because of that strong devotion and obligation to support them within the base. If it does do well (Going to claim well to be 6,000-7,000+ per volume here) I think it'll provide a fair bit of proof for the theory that diehard fans showed up at the 11th hour to I suppose pay their dues. If not then I'd say symbv/jmal's points stand. Very curious to see what happens here as even the pro-Kyoani crowd seems very certain it'll be a disappointing return come next Monday, whereas I'll believe it when I see it. - I believe the poor sales of Nichijou has proven abundantly that there are not that many KyoAni fans who are devoted to buying every BD it releases. Saying you are waiting for Tamako to provide evidence to prove or disprove your theory, while ignoring Nichijou debacle, seems to be just a way to cling onto your own theory. - As jmal said, Tamako is very likely to be substantially skewed towards storefront in terms of distribution of sales. This means we will expect a bigger sale than what the Amazon Stalker projection is showing. A 50% margin over the projection in sales is entirely possible. And this is not something that happens only to KyoAni works. Works like Dog Days have displayed similar skew. So any sales that comes above the Stalker prediction cannot really prove if it is showing "crazy devoted" fans at work. - I don't know what kind of bad experience you once had with the "crazy devoted" KyoAni fans, but if I can venture a guess I would say most if not all those fans you dealt with are English-speaking fans overseas? If so, then I wonder how you can link those behavior to the consumer behavior of the fans in Japan. At the end BD/DVD sales are almost all made by fans in Japan. They are bought by very few overseas fans. Your theory would prove to be much more credible if those "crazy devoted" fans actually all buy KyoAni DVD/BD themselves to support KyoAni. If they do not, then all their fanboy passion are just nothing but talks which do not translate into any material gain for KyoAni. Of course that does not mean Japan does not have a group of dedicated KyoAni fans, but as I argued before, we have not seen much evidence that these people are blindly buying every single KyoAni disc released. So as a conclusion, and it is something I repeatedly try to tell you, is that you should not let your bad experience with some "crazy devoted" KyoAni fans you meet in some English-speaking forums (online or offline) colored your view about KyoAni and its fandom, in particular its fandom in Japan and how far BD/DVD sales reflect it (the latter is really what this thread's topic is about). |
symbvMar 20, 2013 2:44 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| For once I managed to capture the temporary file in 2ch for the daily Oricon result (because of a random delay by Oricon so I was lucky). The daily result for the "flying get day" (the day before the actual official release date) is as follows. EVERY ANIME this season falls below Saki Achiga-hen vol.8 !!! 02 Chu2byo v4 07 Smile Precure movie 10 Saki Achiga-hen v8 12 Tamako Market v1 14 MaoYuu v1 16 The Unlimited v1 17 Hanasaku Iroha BD Box |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
bippo said: I think there are two:No anime charted on the dvd charts. 21 Waraseeru Suman DVD Box 23 Smile Precure movie bippo said: Well, let's not forget Saki Achiga-hen v7 sold short of 3.4k in first week though. Assuming chuuni has a solid 11k, and precure has about 8k, Tamako, Maoyuu and ZKC aren't far behind. |
symbvMar 20, 2013 4:13 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
phoenixalia said: The reason why I put up Achiga-hen vol.7 as a reference is because vol.7 is very similar to vol.8hmm. If Saki Achiga-hen volume 7 only sold 3.4k, then there is more of a chance for Tamako and the rest sell less than 3.4k? Does Achiga-hen volume 8 come with an event ticket or anything? - Neither has particularly special extra like event ticket or music CD - Both sold for similar price - Both contain one special episode (#13 and #14 respectively) - Both contain the same seiyuu talk show (the two, vol.7&8, form the part 1 and part 2 of the same talk show) It seems to me that the two should have approximately the same level of sales. Note: Just in case some may have missed it, I said Saki Achiga-hen vol.7 sold just short of 3.4k in the first week. For total sales it came to around 3.8k at the end. |
symbvMar 20, 2013 4:38 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| ^ Very much so. As I stressed in my post, yesterday is the "flying get day" which usually consists of internet retailer shipping out its orders in advance or some stores putting the items out for sale early. Some retailers may not have any sales data yet. HMV, for one, is particularly popular to Tamako buyers, and I have a feeling that we have not seen any HMV input in Oricon data yet. |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: My own copy of Chuunibyou V4 hasn't shipped yet, so it's possible that Tamako is in the same situation. They probably shipped out today (and counted them as sold too).I have a feeling that we have not seen any HMV input in Oricon data yet. |
symbv said: Kaioshin_Sama said: You basically described the general slice-of-life school comedy genre, but then while see these elements being used in KyoAni's recent anime, it is not like they all fit only in that mold - the point of Nichijou is less about laid back life resolving small misunderstanding, it is about absurd comedy; a lot of focus of Tamako is outside school, and the new ground I see is extending the "laid back life" slice-of-life concept to a neighborhood instead of just within the school; Disappearance of Haruhi of course involves serious problem and mental struggles faced by the characters, and we see similar attempt to cover that in Chunibyou; and while in Hyouka one girl gets the most attention (as is the case for many midnight anime these days), the focus is actually a group of 2 guys and 2 girls, hardly female centric cast I'd say. So all these just go back to my original point: To those who are not fan of its style, everything it does look the same, but to those who are discerning they are trying something new all the time while trying to stay close to the style they have spent a lot of time and effort to establish. If anything, I think they deliberately picked up more obscure titles just so that fans' expectation would not be so conditioned by the source material. I also tend to feel that Kyoani shows have a fairly similar tone and feel across the board to them as well as some recurring themes that fuel the argument that everything they do is the same. The things I am talking about are a school setting, a largely cute female centric cast often centered around the most bubbly and naive (at least in your average story they would be seen as such) female and all with a very strong emphasis on the idea of life being laid back and non-threatening with any problems or disagreements between characters largely being of the small misunderstanding variety that are often resolved fairly quickly. I know one person I know refers to their output as being largely of the Rated G Moe variety. Actually I remember hearing some westerners who just cannot stop hating anime, and for them all the anime "look the same". And I remember hearing some people this side of the world (Japanese, Chinese etc) who find the western "superhero" stuff all "look the same". While you and I all know this is not true, there is the question of why they'd think this way. Many answers can be given, some of them can be very long, but at the end it is fair to say that if they don't like it in the first place and they allow themselves to be trapped in their bias, this is a natural conclusion for them to arrive, even if they have already watched/read a couple of titles in the genre. And the problem with me is that it simply all comes across as incredibly insincere and highly idealized look at these characters lives because they all have that laid back look and feel to them just the same. And yes there's ever so slight changes in cast with the odd token male thrown in there or sometimes even used to some effect (the sarcastic counterpoint male lead often seen in the likes of Haruhi or Hyouka) and maybe an ever so slight ones in setting as well between series but the themes and happenings all come across as simply superficial to me. In fact superficial is how I'd describe most of their works. Someone like jmal will probably call that stereotyping or hating, but no I'm being honest and maybe it's something to consider. Also I like that you mentioned the comic book thing as an example coming from the other direction. Yes it's entirely possible it's simply a matter of cultural perception and milieu, and it is the perception of some people here that there's a homogeneous nature to Kyoani's products and with that likely comes personal reasons based on observation as opposed to simple stereotyping and "not getting it" or "watching it the right way" as I've been told many times before. Finally the point that some are trying to make is that not all Kyoani stuff sells well and well...I'm curious to see that put to the test with something like Tamako Market which people point to and suspect to fulfill that belief. I'm curious to see as this is indeed a rare situation where that might happen, but I'm at the same time highly skeptical all the same. Also I just simply use to refuse one example like Nichijou because it just as easily could have been a fluke or a once off outlier and currently that's what it appears to be. One example out of a dozen or so that happened during a severe economic downtown several years ago really isn't enough to dispel the whole theory which is probably why you see it still pop up. Two examples though is an entirely different story and would change a lot of perspectives I should imagine, especially if said series doesn't have a lot of critical acclaim like Tamako Market does. Kitchiri said: symbv said: Funny thing about that word is that Kaioshin-sama always seems to take that adjective to the word 'fandom', not just to the Kyoani-fans."crazy devoted" I'm mostly just referring to people that are so unabashedly devoted to a brand or idea that they simply cannot see the more cynical realities of the business or the downsides of certain circumstances for their idealized rose-colored versions brought on by what appears to be steadfast and stubborn devotion. It's basically what separates the fan from the fanboy in my eyes and the reason it probably gets seen a lot paired up with Kyoani fans is simply because in my experience most of the examples I've come across have been within that camp with perhaps the only other major example being Shaft. |
PeacingOutMar 20, 2013 6:12 AM
Kaioshin_Sama said: Let me remind you that slice-of-life comedy genre has a long history in Japan. Award-winning and hugely popular works like Sazae-san, which has been running for several decades, also feature highly idealized characters doing nothing much but living their day-to-day life in which the biggest issues are just some small misunderstanding to be resolved happily at the end. People love it and they find it endearing and heart warming. Many vow it provides the life-boosting energy and hope to face the real life. Few think it is insincere or untrue. You may think it highly idealized (and so unrealistic) but look at it from another angle: Most of our life are more like the humdrum life led by these characters than world-changing dimension-leaping magic-invoking characters constantly facing life-and-death situations in some other genres. And one thing that slice-of-life comedy taught me (and I am sure a lot of its fans too) is that all the little fun bits of daily life details are really what sustain our happiness in life. We meet friends, share laughs with them, solve various (mostly minor) issues together with them, and share great experience like an outing or a festival together. But is your laid-back life the same as my laid-back life or the laid-back life of your colleague or schoolmate? Probably not, because you and I (or they) are not the same. So different settings can make a work different. Also for a fan of the genre, the characters are not the same either, and a different mix of characters can also result in different chemistry and interactions too. This is where they see difference and differentiate (though I must also add difference in character design can also be a factor too). And the problem with me is that it simply all comes across as incredibly insincere and highly idealized look at these characters lives because they all have that laid back look and feel to them just the same. |
symbvMar 20, 2013 6:26 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: Kaioshin_Sama said: Let me remind you that slice-of-life comedy genre has a long history in Japan. Award-winning and hugely popular works like Sazae-san also feature highly idealized characters doing nothing much but living their day-to-day life in which the biggest issues are just some small misunderstanding to be resolved happily at the end. People love it and they find it endearing and heart warming. Many vow it provides the life-boosting energy and hope to face the real life. Few think it is insincere or untrue. You may think it highly idealized but look at it from another angle: Most of our life are more like the humdrum life led by these characters than world-changing dimension-leaping magic-invoking characters in some other genres. And one thing that slice-of-life comedy taught me (and I am sure a lot of its fans too) is that all the little fun bits of daily life details are really what sustain our happiness in life. We meet friends, share laughs with them, solve various issues together with them, and share great experience like an outing or a festival together. But is your laid-back life the same as my laid-back life or the laid-back life of your colleague or schoolmate? Probably not, because you and I (or they) are not the same. And for a fan of the genre, the characters are not the same either, and a different mix of characters can also result in different chemistry and interactions too. This is where they see difference and differentiate.And the problem with me is that it simply all comes across as incredibly insincere and highly idealized look at these characters lives because they all have that laid back look and feel to them just the same. Yeah it's possible there's some cultural differences that allow a K-On, Lucky Star or Tamako Market to speak more directly to people in Japan, but where they see those things I just see insincere crass and self-serving marketing and commercialism that frequently irritates rather than enchants me with it's faux-idealism and presentation of daily life. That's not to say I have something against the ideas or themes of slice of life in general as My Neighbours the Yamada's is actually my favorite Ghibli film and one of my favorite animated films period and I loved the recent Wolf Children movie by Hosoda. However I expect the ideas and themes they are trying to convey to feel like they are based in something other than mere marketing considerations which is the impression I get overwhelmingly from the Kyoani brand of slice of life. Also Sazae-san is indeed a historical and legendary comic strip, but as I understand it also focused on topical situations in the harsh post-war environment and dealt with the core that is the family as opposed to the groups of 3-4 high school girls enjoying an easy simple life where good things come easy and you don't have to work all that hard to attain happiness. In contrast Sazae-san seemed to say something more like, "in spite of the harshness of life remember that sometimes the simple things can bring great happiness", which to me seems reasonable. Difference generation, different circumstances, similar outlook, that lend it more of an air of legitimacy and sincerity from where I'm sitting. The emphasis on a simplistic art style and the continual use of hand drawn cels for the anime which continues to this day also adds to it's charm I think that the high energy shininess of Kyoani's art/animation style simply does not have for me. |
PeacingOutMar 20, 2013 6:35 AM
| Strange the only 20th thing to ship for me yet is Kotoura - san ED CD. The rest are not even shipping soon on amazon. BTOOOM 5 doesn't even have cover art yet... On amazon at least. |
hpulleyMar 20, 2013 7:01 AM
Kaioshin_Sama said: Whether it is faux-idealism also depends on your own sensitivity, don't you agree? As I said repeatedly before, there are many anecdotes from teenagers or young adults in Japan about how inspiring and sincere K-On is to them. At the end I think the question lies more with how you are more receptive to a certain style of execution and presentation than how much the work is "faux-idealistic". In fact, if you want to complain about commercialism (which, mind you, exists not just in slice-of-life genres but almost all genres of anime as well) in slice-of-life genre, there are a lot more better examples you can find in other studios. To me, at least, the calculation (commercial consideration) made by KyoAni is no worse than, say, Ghibli put in making the characters look cuter. Is it crass? I don't think so, just like I won't say a studio is crass in making "self-serving marketing and commercialism" by making a mecha/Gundam or a superhero look and behave cool and awesome. It is something that we always need to take into account watching a commercially produced work -- and I just don't see KyoAni as the more guilty studio.Yeah it's possible there's some cultural differences that allow a K-On, Lucky Star or Tamako Market to speak more directly to people in Japan, but where they see those things I just see insincere crass and self-serving marketing and commercialism that frequently irritates rather than enchants me with it's faux-idealism and presentation of daily life. That's not to say I have something against the ideas or themes of slice of life in general as My Neighbours the Yamada's is actually my favorite Ghibli film and one of my favorite animated films period and I loved the recent Wolf Children movie by Hosoda. However I expect the ideas and themes they are trying to convey to feel like they are based in something other than mere marketing considerations which is the impression I get overwhelmingly from the Kyoani brand of slice of life. Kaioshin_Sama said: Don't forget that almost all the current generation who enjoy Sazae-san now have no memory or experience of the harsh post-war environment. And if you look at the anime now, you see nothing about that background either. It is just a bunch of characters leading their simple life. Also Sazae-san is indeed a historical and legendary comic strip, but as I understand it also focused on topical situations in the harsh post-war environment and dealt with the core that is the family as opposed to the groups of 3-4 high school girls enjoying an easy simple life where good things come easy and you don't have to work all that hard to attain happiness. Kaioshin_Sama said: Well, then it just goes back to my point above, that "it all depends on your sensitivity", right? You seem to have a preference for a simple art style, so KyoAni's style of focusing on small motions and tiny details with high energy puts you off. But at the end it is just different style of execution and presentation, and it is not fair nor right to deem one is necessarily better or more sincere or realistic than the other. Difference generation, different circumstances, similar outlook, that lend it more of an air of legitimacy and sincerity from where I'm sitting. The emphasis on a simplistic art style and the continual use of hand drawn cels for the anime which continues to this day also adds to it's charm I think that the high energy shininess of Kyoani's art/animation style simply does not have for me. |
symbvMar 20, 2013 6:46 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: Kaioshin_Sama said: Whether it is faux-idealism also depends on your own sensitivity, don't you agree? As I said repeatedly before, there are many anecdotes from teenagers or young adults in Japan about how inspiring and sincere K-On is to them. At the end I think the question lies more with how you are more receptive to a certain style of execution and presentation than how much the work is "faux-idealistic". In fact, if you want to complain about commercialism (which, mind you, exists not just in slice-of-life genres but almost all genres of anime as well) in slice-of-life genre, there are a lot more better examples you can find in other studios. To me, at least, the calculation (commercial consideration) made by KyoAni is no worse than, say, Ghibli put in making the characters look cuter. Is it crass? I don't think so, just like I won't say a studio is crass in making "self-serving marketing and commercialism" by making a mecha/Gundam or a superhero look and behave cool and awesome.Yeah it's possible there's some cultural differences that allow a K-On, Lucky Star or Tamako Market to speak more directly to people in Japan, but where they see those things I just see insincere crass and self-serving marketing and commercialism that frequently irritates rather than enchants me with it's faux-idealism and presentation of daily life. That's not to say I have something against the ideas or themes of slice of life in general as My Neighbours the Yamada's is actually my favorite Ghibli film and one of my favorite animated films period and I loved the recent Wolf Children movie by Hosoda. However I expect the ideas and themes they are trying to convey to feel like they are based in something other than mere marketing considerations which is the impression I get overwhelmingly from the Kyoani brand of slice of life. Well I am man enough to admit that some of my antagonism towards the so-called SoL genre that Kyoani brings to the table has some basis in people essentially lording it over me as the apparent ideal, pure and superior genre/style of anime for the longest time. It's led me to find plenty reason to try to debunk the idea that there's incomparable depth to what they bring versus the stories I've held in high regard for a heck of a lot longer than Kyoani has been around and so far I've found plenty of evidence to the contrary of these claims, but I won't pretend I didn't start from a position of some bias here. Even disregarding that and watching something like K-On in a vacuum though that is my genuine assessment though. Vapid, insincere, far too idealistic (the not practicing and still learning how to play instruments at a journeyman level thing made it impossible to take seriously as a music themed anime) and just commercially obsessed. I'm sure there's people that would feel the same way about something like Gundam all the same and they'd probably be able to make some good points against it on that front, but of course it goes both ways. By the way I liked how you used the term "no worse" as opposed to better or superior thus keeping your argument focused and grounded as opposed to overreaching. Starting from a position of neutrality and working from there....smart bridge building stuff in terms of attempting to connect on an idea. Again if only I could have met supporters of Kyoani like yourself earlier and in greater number I'm sure perceptions would have turned out a lot differently. Sigh..... |
Kaioshin_Sama said: To me, fanboy-ish hype and hater's rant are all something that needs to be avoided. And what I mean is, not only one should not engage in it, but one should not be affected by it either. Taking this approach, this means just because I see a lot of haters or I see a lot of starry-eyed fanboys over a work, I should not have my opinion about the work swayed by the fanboys/haters I encounter. I should not judge a studio by its fans (and particularly not if they are fans who are not really spending money on it). Because to do so you allow yourself to be trapped in a narrow vision that cannot see a work without seeing its fanboys/haters. Any potential enjoyment of a work is going to be forever undermined by such link. Well I am man enough to admit that some of my antagonism towards the so-called SoL genre that Kyoani brings to the table has some basis in people essentially lording it over me as the apparent ideal, pure and superior genre/style of anime for the longest time. It's led me to find plenty reason to try to debunk the idea that there's incomparable depth to what they bring versus the stories I've held in high regard for a heck of a lot longer than Kyoani has been around and so far I've found plenty of evidence to the contrary of these claims, but I won't pretend I didn't start from a position of some bias here. Kaioshin_Sama said: I can tell you a bunch of forms of popular entertainment I have absolutely no interest and if I can have only myself as the audience I would use words that are no less critical than you use above. In fact I would have done precisely that in an open forum like here perhaps 10 or 15 years ago. But over time gradually I find that at the end it is not the form of entertainment or the genre that is the problem, but my perception and sensitivity to it. I may never understand why some people love the entertainment I will never bother spending time on, but over time I try to see things in different angle and perspective, and understand what is the appeal to its fans. Even now I may not be able to understand it to the extent I would say I like it, or even say I won't mind spending some time on it, but I would not go to that length to criticize the genre or the style now.Even disregarding that and watching something like K-On in a vacuum though that is my genuine assessment though. Vapid, insincere, far too idealistic (the not practicing and still learning how to play instruments at a journeyman level thing made it impossible to take seriously as a music themed anime) and just commercially obsessed. I'm sure there's people that would feel the same way about something like Gundam all the same and they'd probably be able to make some good points against it on that front, but of course it goes both ways. As for taking K-On seriously as a music-themed anime, the key is that its story is never about music or striving to practice and make better music. Slice-of-life character interactions are the dominating theme. You can argue that it is commercial calculation to depict those characters as some genius who compose and play songs in the professional level that we hear in their CD, but this is what I said about taking the commercial calculation into account when we watch an anime: There is really little benefit to depict the same character interactions and then proceed to show them play very amateurish music in their performance. Of course they could have formed other club instead of a music band, but I guess the original author of the manga picks it for the potential to create jokes based on that setting. KyoAni just exploited it to make a clear push in the music sales on top -- the potential is too obvious to ignore. |
symbvMar 20, 2013 7:28 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
| I loved K greatly cause of Homra so I'm glad that it is getting good sales and tops this week. Can't wait for season 2 hope its just as awesome as the first. <3 |
"What has two arms, two legs, and is alive? Not your favorite character lol! xD" |
symbv said: Let me remind you that slice-of-life comedy genre has a long history in Japan. Award-winning and hugely popular works like Sazae-san, which has been running for several decades, also feature highly idealized characters doing nothing much but living their day-to-day life in which the biggest issues are just some small misunderstanding to be resolved happily at the end. People love it and they find it endearing and heart warming. Many vow it provides the life-boosting energy and hope to face the real life. Few think it is insincere or untrue. You may think it highly idealized (and so unrealistic) but look at it from another angle: Most of our life are more like the humdrum life led by these characters than world-changing dimension-leaping magic-invoking characters constantly facing life-and-death situations in some other genres. And one thing that slice-of-life comedy taught me (and I am sure a lot of its fans too) is that all the little fun bits of daily life details are really what sustain our happiness in life. We meet friends, share laughs with them, solve various (mostly minor) issues together with them, and share great experience like an outing or a festival together. But is your laid-back life the same as my laid-back life or the laid-back life of your colleague or schoolmate? Probably not, because you and I (or they) are not the same. So different settings can make a work different. Also for a fan of the genre, the characters are not the same either, and a different mix of characters can also result in different chemistry and interactions too. This is where they see difference and differentiate (though I must also add difference in character design can also be a factor too). I love you. |
 |
| Update of the Oricon Daily BD Sales ranking 19 20 ==== 02 02 Chu2byo v4 12 07 Tamako v1 07 12 Smile PreCure movie 10 13 Saki Achiga-hen v8 -- 15 D.C.III v1 16 16 The Unlimited v1 17 17 Hanasaku Iroha BD Box 14 20 MaoYuu v1 |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: Update of the Oricon Daily BD Sales ranking 19 20 ==== 02 02 Chu2byo v4 12 07 Tamako v1 07 12 Smile PreCure movie 10 13 Saki Achiga-hen v8 -- 15 D.C.III v1 16 16 The Unlimited v1 17 17 Hanasaku Iroha BD Box 14 20 MaoYuu v1 D.C.III 1 on the radar, so pleased! My copy is on its way with GuP 3, BTOOOM 5, Shinsekai Yori 5, LoveLive! 1, Asura |
bippo said: Great cumback for Tamako! Hope it keeps up on the third day despite the competitions tomorrow! I still have hope! Not sure if the different editions of Nanoha and UC Gundam will be counted separately but even if the various editions are counted together to take only one slot, I think we will see the following titles coming above Tamako on its 3rd day: UC Gundam v6 Love Live v1 GirlPan v3 Nanoha movie 2nd KuroBas v9 Horizon2 v7 Psycho-Pass v4 Total Eclipse v7 And there are only 20 slots for BD (which covers everything from movie, to concert to anime). I would be surprised if it stays within top 15 tomorrow. Also, the following can also break into the lsit: Overman King Gainer BD Box Hakkenden v1 School Days BD Box Rinne no Lagrange fan disc Kyou no 5 no 2 BD Box Ashura |
symbvMar 21, 2013 5:14 AM
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
bippo said: symbv said: Not sure if the different editions of Nanoha and UC Gundam will be counted separately but even if they are counted together to take only one slot, I think we will see the following titles coming above Tamako on its 3rd day. I think Oricon counts Unicorn separately. But I'm not so sure. Nanoha, I have no idea. I think Oricon will count all the different editions (SLE, LE and RE) of Nanoha separately based on the DVD/BD sales wiki. Also, something's weekly sales post in 2010, has the editions separate... http://www.mania.com/aodvb/blog.php?b=4137 ○魔法少女リリカルなのは The MOVIE 1st 巻数 初動 2週計 累計 発売日 BD(DVD) BD(DVD) BD(DVD) 限定 58,452(22,758) 65,316(26,609) 73,389(27,880) 10.11.26 ※合計 101,269枚 通常 *1,300(*1,384) **,***(**,***) **,***(**,***) 10.11.26 ※合計 **2,684枚 Oricon may very well split the different editions of Gundam UC v6. All the previous ones only had one edition for the DVD and BD (i'm assuming based on the DVD/BD sales wiki and in something's weekly sales posts). Also, it would put this in line with how they handle anime movie releases as well with their limited and regular editions. |
EjcMar 21, 2013 5:58 AM
The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
| Might have to wait for the top 100 for some like Tamako Market and in such a big week some like my beloved losers Shinsekai Yori and BTOOOM may not even rank in the top hundred... |
| It is now March 22... 12:10am in Japan. Amazon JP has shifted from Pre-Order status to a projection of GaruPan v3 being back in stock on April 12, 2013. They may revise this to an earlier date as the day goes on... but there must be stock issues again =/ |
| The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
| Concert discs may take some spots this week too. Edit: next week will be even worse with AKB0048, Karasia, Bigbang... GaruPan stock issues, jeez... Just can't keep up! Glad mine has shipped! |
hpulleyMar 21, 2013 8:23 AM
jmal said: Ejc said: It is now March 22... 12:10am in Japan. Amazon JP has shifted from Pre-Order status to a projection of GaruPan v3 being back in stock on April 12, 2013. They may revise this to an earlier date as the day goes on... but there must be stock issues again =/ I honestly don't think they're even trying anymore. I feel like soliciting those RE versions of the BDs was their admission of defeat. I think so too. I mean look at the sorry state of GaruPan v1 now. New: ￥14,800. Used: ￥13,800. That is the MINIMUM price! They should've just continued to print LE BDs instead of using the RE BDs as a fallback. I also just added v3 to the cart for curiousity sake, and tried to add 999 copies. Apparently they only have 716 copies that can be ordered right now. Just what is this, lol? |
| The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
Ejc said: Well, how often do you see a LE (Limited Edition) actually means what it says :-) ?I think so too. I mean look at the sorry state of GaruPan v1 now. New: ￥14,800. Used: ￥13,800. That is the MINIMUM price! They should've just continued to print LE BDs instead of using the RE BDs as a fallback. I also just added v3 to the cart for curiousity sake, and tried to add 999 copies. Hmm.. if you indeed bought 999 copies of the BD.. would have cost millions of yen... hmm... |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: Ejc said: Well, how often do you see a LE (Limited Edition) actually means what it says :-) ?I think so too. I mean look at the sorry state of GaruPan v1 now. New: ￥14,800. Used: ￥13,800. That is the MINIMUM price! They should've just continued to print LE BDs instead of using the RE BDs as a fallback. Well, the number of atoms in the universe is limited... |
hpulley said: But the atoms in the universe are not sold in any Limited Edition X-Dsymbv said: Well, the number of atoms in the universe is limited...Ejc said: Well, how often do you see a LE (Limited Edition) actually means what it says :-) ?I think so too. I mean look at the sorry state of GaruPan v1 now. New: ￥14,800. Used: ￥13,800. That is the MINIMUM price! They should've just continued to print LE BDs instead of using the RE BDs as a fallback. jmal said: Probably. So this is the trick...I also bet that's where some numbers came from before when 2ch was saying that this or that given restock was "about 500 copies". |
| So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old? I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them? I wonder how long people would put up with this. As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series. |
symbv said: hpulley said: But the atoms in the universe are not sold in any Limited Edition X-Dsymbv said: Well, the number of atoms in the universe is limited...Ejc said: Well, how often do you see a LE (Limited Edition) actually means what it says :-) ?I think so too. I mean look at the sorry state of GaruPan v1 now. New: ￥14,800. Used: ￥13,800. That is the MINIMUM price! They should've just continued to print LE BDs instead of using the RE BDs as a fallback. My first pressing order was too late, damn... |
| K of all anime are they for real? |
Mr_Gutts said: K of all anime are they for real? K is the only new anime that came out that week of course, it would take the top spot I'm sick and tired of hearing people whining why "How did X anime sell and Y anime didn't" when they're the ones pirating |
 |
| Oricon Daily ranks for Mar 21 (pre-release day for Mar 22 releases): DVD Daily *18 *19 *20 *21 *22 *23 *24 週 *** *** *** **1 *** *** *** | -- | Gundam UC 6 *** *** *** **2 *** *** *** | -- | KuroBas 9 *** *** *** **5 *** *** *** | -- | Nanoha The MOVIE 2nd A's SLE *** *** *** *10 *** *** *** | -- | ONE PIECE Episode of Luffy ~Hand Island no Bouken~ *** *** *** *14 *** *** *** | -- | Nanoha The MOVIE 2nd A's LE *** *** *** *20 *** *** *** | -- | PSYCHO-PASS 4 *** *** *** *21 *** *** *** | -- | GaruPan 3 *** *** *** *25 *** *** *** | -- | Shirokuma Cafe 9 *** *** *** *26 *** *** *** | -- | Nanoha The MOVIE 2nd A's RE *** *** *** *30 *** *** *** | -- | Ai Mai Mii *** *23 *21 *** *** *** *** | -- | Smile Precure Movie *** *** *30 *** *** *** *** | -- | Alice Tantei Kyoko 2 *** *21 *** *** *** *** *** | -- | Waraseeru Suman DVD Box *13 *** *** *** *** *** *** | -- | Ookami Kodomo BD Daily *18 *19 *20 *21 *22 *23 *24 週 *** *** *** **1 *** *** *** | -- | Gundam UC 6 LE *** *** *** **2 *** *** *** | -- | Nanoha The MOVIE 2nd A's SLE *** *** *** **3 *** *** *** | -- | GaruPan 3 *** *** *** **4 *** *** *** | -- | Gundam UC 6 RE *** *** *** **5 *** *** *** | -- | Horizon II 7 *** *** *** **6 *** *** *** | -- | Love Live! 1 *** *** *** **7 *** *** *** | -- | Nanoha The MOVIE 2nd A's LE *** *** *** **8 *** *** *** | -- | KuroBas 9 *** *** *** **9 *** *** *** | -- | PSYCHO-PASS 4 *** *** *** *12 *** *** *** | -- | Gundam SEED C.E.73-STARGAZER- *** *** *** *14 *** *** *** | -- | Total Eclipse 7 *** *** *** *15 *** *** *** | -- | Nanoha The MOVIE 2nd A's RE *** *** *** *16 *** *** *** | -- | Overman King Gainer BD Box *** **2 **2 *17 *** *** *** | -- | Chu2koi！ 4 *** *** *** *20 *** *** *** | -- | ONE PIECE Episode of Luffy ~Hand Island no Bouken~ *** *12 **7 *** *** *** *** | -- | TamakoMa 1 *** **7 *12 *** *** *** *** | -- | Smile Precure Movie *** *10 *13 *** *** *** *** | -- | Saki Achiga-hen 8 *** *** *15 *** *** *** *** | -- | Da Capo III 1 *** *16 *16 *** *** *** *** | -- | THE UNLIMITED 1 *** *17 *17 *** *** *** *** | -- | HanaIro Blu-ray 'BOX *** *14 *20 *** *** *** *** | -- | Maoyuu 1 **9 *** *** *** *** *** *** | -- | NekoKuro 1 *10 *** *** *** *** *** *** | -- | Ookami Kodomo *12 *** *** *** *** *** *** | -- | K 7 *14 *** *** *** *** *** *** | -- | K 6 *15 *** *** *** *** *** *** | -- | Ookami Kodomo Blu-ray+DVD |
EjcMar 22, 2013 3:37 AM
| The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
| LoveLive! above KuroBas! You go girls! |
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