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Ventus_S said: astroprogs said: It's not just the scale, it's the level of detail. The more detailed the original design is, the worse and worse it'll look in motion, especially in smooth high frame count motion. Considering how the pre-production phase of Babylonia took around a full year, which is borderline insane in the current Japanese animation industry climate, and they still used CGI, you can be sure that the 2D version would've most certainly looked worse in the future episodes. And honestly, the CGI looks fine. People are awfully exaggerating. If you think Tiamat looked like a PS2 model, then you forgot what PS2 models looked like. This 100% I'm not sure what kind of ridiculous expectations people had of CGI Tiamat. I mean if all she does is just stand there sliding forward and occasionally use her voice to shout , I see no reason they can't just draw her in 2D since she's not even being "animated" XD... Also I don't feel like people are being exaggerated. Compare to every other CGI they use in this serie (basically every single lahmu and beasts), her model looks especially bad , blurry, low quality, out of place. It's not her movement, it's the camera's. You don't just animate a character when they themselves move. Due to the level of detail in Tiamat's design and considering the events to come, the amount of work to manually animate Tiamat, while still making sure she stays on-model the entire time, is honestly beyond ridiculous for a TV series, regardless of production time and budget. Compared to the other CGI in this very series, it's fine, The shading is slightly different to show how otherworldly she is, but the level of detail and texture quality is on par with Gorgon. The Lahmnu are black monsters with a very low level of detail and highly repetitive motion. They're in no way comparable to Gorgon, let alone Tiamat. |
astroprogs said: Ventus_S said: I mean if all she does is just stand there sliding forward and occasionally use her voice to shout , I see no reason they can't just draw her in 2D since she's not even being "animated" XD... Also I don't feel like people are being exaggerated. Compare to every other CGI they use in this serie (basically every single lahmu and beasts), her model looks especially bad , blurry, low quality, out of place. It's not her movement, it's the camera's. You don't just animate a character when they themselves move. Due to the level of detail in Tiamat's design and considering the events to come, the amount of work to manually animate Tiamat, while still making sure she stays on-model the entire time, is honestly beyond ridiculous for a TV series, regardless of production time and budget. Compared to the other CGI in this very series, it's fine, The shading is slightly different to show how otherworldly she is, but the level of detail and texture quality is on par with Gorgon. The Lahmnu are black monsters with a very low level of detail and highly repetitive motion. They're in no way comparable to Gorgon, let alone Tiamat. At least lahmu don't turn the whole screen blurry for no reason. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ed7f419c11a027b4ad9854ee2f6e0e9415cc04580eff78e766328c04da944288.png It's not about the level of detail, it's immersion really. It just feel out of place when she's in the same screen as the background. |
Ventus_S said: astroprogs said: It's not her movement, it's the camera's. You don't just animate a character when they themselves move. Due to the level of detail in Tiamat's design and considering the events to come, the amount of work to manually animate Tiamat, while still making sure she stays on-model the entire time, is honestly beyond ridiculous for a TV series, regardless of production time and budget. Compared to the other CGI in this very series, it's fine, The shading is slightly different to show how otherworldly she is, but the level of detail and texture quality is on par with Gorgon. The Lahmnu are black monsters with a very low level of detail and highly repetitive motion. They're in no way comparable to Gorgon, let alone Tiamat. At least lahmu don't turn the whole screen blurry for no reason. https://uploads.disquscdn.com/images/ed7f419c11a027b4ad9854ee2f6e0e9415cc04580eff78e766328c04da944288.png It's not about the level of detail, it's immersion really. It just feel out of place when she's in the same screen as the background. That's depth of field. It's intentional to showcase her scale. You may not like this artistic decision, but that doesn't really make the CGI bad. I do think she's meant to feel out of place. That's why her shading is very different from every CGI model prior. You don't exactly stumble into this kind of shading. |
astroprogsFeb 15, 2020 2:47 PM
Javera said: Just because there are worse examples doesn't suddenly mean the CG Tiamat becomes good. It's still bad and that's a very defeatist attitude out there. You should be comparing against the good examples, not the terrible ones. Hell, other instances of CG in FGO has been decent. Gorgon for example, is a good blend of CG and 2D.I feel as if all the complaints about the CG are from people who have never seen Berserk 2016, Overlord, and even the original Deen Fate/Stay Night. >original Deen Fate/Stay Night Yeah, you're not really helping your case if you have to cite an anime from a decade ago. |
astroprogs said: Final Fantasy 9 Bahamut isnt better or worse than Tiamat. As GCI she is fine but she just doesnt blend well. And Kuku, Isthar and even Ushi have just as much detail as she does. Her second stage is just Femme Fatale with extra horns and those things behind her that arent even detailed. At this point we are talking about artistic choice just like what Ufo did with Lancelot in order to depict his NP. Except that it worked in Zero. There is only on close up on Tiamat in this ep where detail matters and I doubt they didnt have time for that. And sure I dont care with how it blends now but when the fight scenes come it will be jarring.Especially And she doesnt have to be depicted as otherworldly when she is supposed to be what created life in the first place. |
astroprogs said: No, just because you think there's a justification for such a decision doesn't mean the CG is no longer bad. It's still bad. I'd rather have less details but 2D than this jarring CG. And you make it sound like the sort of design for Tiamat is unique and never been done in the cornucopia of anime in history. Complex design has been done even in weekly anime. And even if they HAVE to go the CG route, there have also been weekly anime with much better looking CG.You may not like this artistic decision, but that doesn't really make the CGI bad. |
ssjokg said: astroprogs said: Final Fantasy 9 Bahamut isnt better or worse than Tiamat. As GCI she is fine but she just doesnt blend well. And Kuku, Isthar and even Ushi have just as much detail as she does. Her second stage is just Femme Fatale with extra horns and those things behind her that arent even detailed. At this point we are talking about artistic choice just like what Ufo did with Lancelot in order to depict his NP. Except that it worked in Zero. There is only on close up on Tiamat in this ep where detail matters and I doubt they didnt have time for that. And sure I dont care with how it blends now but when the fight scenes come it will be jarring.Especially And she doesnt have to be depicted as otherworldly when she is supposed to be what created life in the first place. Tiamat looks better than FF9's Bahamut in the pre-rendered cutscenes. Kuku. Ishtar and Ushi did lose details in motion, especially Kuku in episode 11. She has a lot more detail than her Femme Fatale form, not just the two things you mentioned. The close up on her face doesn't look as good, but that's true of Gorgon as well. It's a fact of life when it comes to CGI. I'm not going to disagree with that, really. Being the one that created life adds a level of mysticism to her very concept. This begs for her appearance to be more unique and out of the ordinary, not more normal. Her concept benefits from looking uncanny. Nilvius said: astroprogs said: No, just because you think there's a justification for such a decision doesn't mean the CG is no longer bad. It's still bad. I'd rather have less details but 2D than this jarring CG. And you make it sound like the sort of design for Tiamat is unique and never been done in the cornucopia of anime in history. Complex design has been done even in weekly anime. And even if they HAVE to go the CG route, there have also been weekly anime with much better looking CG.You may not like this artistic decision, but that doesn't really make the CGI bad. Well, I think it looks pretty good overall. Are you going to say that I'm objectively wrong because it looks objectively bad? That's not how criticism of artistic expression works. I never said it's complexity is unique, I said it's more than fine for what it's meant to be. This show had an action scene in literally every episode to this point. Complex scenes have indeed been shown in TV series before, but not in one like this. No show that I know of has action scenes that look as good as this show's in literally every single episode. If you ant 2D Tiamat on top, you're just having unrealistic expectations of TV production. Also, aside from ufotable and shows that are CG from the ground up, I don't really know of any weekly anime that had CG that looks much better than this. |
astroprogsFeb 15, 2020 3:11 PM
| the worst goddess... at least she is cute |
| just because I’ve gotten weaker, doesn’t mean that you got stronger, does it? |
astroprogs said: Are you going to say that I'm objectively wrong because it looks objectively bad? That's not how criticism of artistic expression works. So what, are you claiming that somehow I'm not allowed to disagree with your assertion? That's not how criticism of artistic expression works either. If you want to make it "objectivity", so be it. This show had an action scene in literally every episode to this point. [... ...] If you ant 2D Tiamat on top, you're just having unrealistic expectations of TV production. |
| @astroprogs give up man, the cgi was horrendous .. this is not a cgi you show in an adaptation of a multi billion IP. |
 |
Nilvius said: astroprogs said: Are you going to say that I'm objectively wrong because it looks objectively bad? That's not how criticism of artistic expression works. So what, are you claiming that somehow I'm not allowed to disagree with your assertion? That's not how criticism of artistic expression works either. If you want to make it "objectivity", so be it. This show had an action scene in literally every episode to this point. [... ...] If you ant 2D Tiamat on top, you're just having unrealistic expectations of TV production. Of course not, you're allowed to disagree with me. It's all subjective anyway. The point was that there's a difference between saying "I like/hate it" and saying "it's bad". "Bad" isn't a subjective description, but an objective one. If there's an artisitc reason for something that clicks with some people and works as intended, it can't really be bad (or good, so we're clear). No one has the authority to declare that. I think that those tricks you're talking about to work around limited resources look iffy and lacked detail and the level of fineness we're used to having with this show. The optimal way to retain detail is just CG, it's simple as that. I'm fine with what that CG approach sacrifices, personally, and you're free to disagree. We just have different priorities for how an anime TV show should look. |
| So much discussion just for CGI The models are good, the only problem is the focus on her face in 1 scene, they could simply made her face 2D on that scene, the rest is good |
| Visual Novels should have a place in this site, really |
| While CGI Tiamat was pretty rough, the comedy in the last half of the episode was just great. |
 |
| @astroprogs Finally someone with a decent explanation in this whole thread. Still, let's wait and see. I'm really wondering how are they going to pull this off with the events to come. Aure0lin said: Swagernator said: She wasn't born with the concept of death .. hmm .. only if we had someone who eats death for breakfast ... and carries a giant sword. Also yeee, they did the joke. But that PS2 CGI was atrocious. Dont tell me that this is what whale money bring us. Cause, the mc-kun was not ready yet. I'm sure you've played the game (maybe?) and you're just being sarcastic. But just to remind you, there's an explanation as to why Tiamat didn't show up until the very end and it's not just because of Merlin or Tiamat unable to manifest thought Gorgon. Same goes as to why Gudao was in the right place at the right time, how he was one of the only survivor at Chaldea, and how he manage to succeed through all the Singularity. |
| besides the hyperbole of CGI Tiamat looking like a ps2 model it just did not look great with how big it was and how much it stood out ,while the talks of it's design being complex she wasn't moving all that much so i don't know why they even did it in CGI right now oh wel. i'm just shocked we got some light comedy after all the despair that i figured would be the rest of the show lol now i know why the FGO fans bully the shit out of Iishtar the worst goddess even if she was pretty cool at the start! |
 |
landofthekwt said: Tiamat gets killed in every version of Mesopotamian mythology her chief anger was with the ungrateful children she birthed Bad not having Marduk's weapon Love "It could work" But why's this Luhmu she created has even worse personality? Like their personality quickly developed into the worst kinda of human-being under a few minutes/ hours cuz they learn fast , and learn all the bad things. |
| i've developed a habit of skipping cutscenes because most of the story is steaming shit so i could have missed a lot of things tbh. im pretty sure i read through all of babylonia tho and you're just being sarcastic. But just to remind you, there's an explanation as to why Tiamat didn't show up until the very end and it's not just because of Merlin or Tiamat unable to manifest thought Gorgon. did you mean KH because tiamat's been everywhere since gorgon diedalso Same goes as to why Gudao was in the right place at the right time, how he was one of the only survivor at Chaldea, and how he manage to succeed through all the Singularity. didn't gudao survive that explosion through dumb luck and the singularities through being exceptional at compatibility with servants |
Aure0linFeb 15, 2020 10:16 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| Wow, this is literally the definition of "being attacked by bad CG". And here I thought Gorgon looked weird in CGI... but seriously, Tiamat indeed looks like she came out directly from a PS2 game. Honestly, I already knew she had one or two more forms that were huge in scale so a 3D treatment was to be expected but man, I'm quite disappointed with how "cheap" her 3D model looks so far. Anyways, other than that, this was still another nice episode. Seeing Eresh again was lovely and her interactions with Gil were hilarious. Gil's expressions were especially on point as well. It almost makes you forget about the amount of deaths and despair the people of Uruk and its surroundings have gone through. And as for Ishtar's... slip-up... well, I honestly wasn't expecting something more coming from someone who shares Rin's personality as well as her tendency to screw things in crucial moments. Now they have to find other way to defend the city but with just a few hours to think, I wonder what they will do. Guess Enkidu/Kingu might give them a hand considering the identity crisis the guy is going through but we'll see. |
| if you've been watching the show or reading the game cutscenes, you find these things called "characterization moments." they're important for making the audience care about the characters in the story. remember the time in this episode where ishtar has to admit that she lost the bull of heaven? that made me appreciate her more as a character. |
Aure0linFeb 15, 2020 11:00 PM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| CGI was distracting, but not terrible. Thumbs Up Cloverworks! |
 |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
| Definitely some very useful reaction GIFs to be found in this episode. |
|
Aure0lin said: didn't gudao survive that explosion through dumb luck and the singularities through being exceptional at compatibility with servants He's a self insert main character ... with literally no soul or personality ... so what do you think. |
|
| CG Tiamat ain't even that bad. Don't @ me. I especially like how off putting she looks for the reason that she is the imposing final boss. Don't know what more people were expecting here. Having that said, we're almost at the end bois. The bell tolls. |
 |
Nilvius said: I never said it became good, don't add words as if I was going to say that. Its just not as bad as people put it out to be. Yeah, it definitely needs work but i understand all the implications behind that.Javera said: Just because there are worse examples doesn't suddenly mean the CG Tiamat becomes good. It's still bad and that's a very defeatist attitude out there. You should be comparing against the good examples, not the terrible ones. Hell, other instances of CG in FGO has been decent. Gorgon for example, is a good blend of CG and 2D.I feel as if all the complaints about the CG are from people who have never seen Berserk 2016, Overlord, and even the original Deen Fate/Stay Night. >original Deen Fate/Stay Night Yeah, you're not really helping your case if you have to cite an anime from a decade ago. |
JaveraFeb 16, 2020 1:16 AM
Aure0lin said: if you've been watching the show or reading the game cutscenes, you find these things called "characterization moments." they're important for making the audience care about the characters in the story. remember the time in this episode where ishtar has to admit that she lost the bull of heaven? that made me appreciate her more as a character. |
ThessFeb 16, 2020 2:07 AM
| That Gil's laugh is spectacular to behold |
| Based Certified. I love anime armpits. |
| Gugalanna!Gugalanna!Gugalanna!Gugalanna!Gugalanna!Gugalanna!Gugalanna! |
| "The future is always blank. Only your willpower can leave footsteps there." "Ruling over death means ruling over life. Death is the climax of life. To have the best death, you must honor life." |
 I laughed way too hard at this part lmao. The SFX. That extra loud whack. hahahaha |
| Ishtar's NP attack was beautiful to watch. Thanks to the well-timed OST used for this scene, it made for an excellent scene. Cloverworks did great here... ...but they didn't do a great job with Tiamat's CGI model though. The complaints of it looking "horrendous" and "it looks like a PS2 game model" is rather exaggerated (as most games on the PS2 have aged rather poorly and looks FAR worse than Tiamat here, with the possible exception of Shadow of the Colossus), but her model's overall looks are a bit more disappointing than the first time we saw Gorgon's CGI model. It's understandable for the use of CGI here for the camera placement and to showcase her huge body in contrast to Fujimaru's group, and having it all hand-drawn would've taken a lot longer, but I know that the production team can do a better job with her model. I doubt that'll happen though... Anyway, putting Tiamat's CGI talk aside, this episode did have some great comedy moments during the meeting with Gilgamesh at Uruk. Ereshkigal's plan to trap Tiamat in the underworld is a plan worth doing, but since it'll take her 3 days to be ready and with Tiamat making her estimated arrival in Uruk a day earlier, the group needed to find a way to stall Tiamat's arrival for a day. Ishtar got some early praise when the group remembered that she can use the bull of heaven, Gagalunna, to help with their plan... ...however, Ishtar somehow lost Gagalunna before Fujimaru and Mash arrived in Mesopotamia back in episode 1, so not only did Gilgamesh verbally rip her to bits, but she was made to stand while holding a rock sign, saying "I am the worst goddess." This got me cracking up! XD Overall, this build-up episode was still great. Tiamat's CGI model dominates this discussion thread as expected, but this episode still have us some really funny moments as well as Ishtar's excellent NP attack on Tiamat's first form. Damn straight that was hilarious! I was wondering when Jaguar Warrior would finally stop her celebrations when everyone else did, but thank god for Quetzalcoatl's well-timed whack. XD |
Aure0lin said: did you mean KH because tiamat's been everywhere since gorgon died It's more about the Counter Force. Counter Guardian tend to be assigned to protecting humanity from itself. Grands often get assigned to deal with outside threats, though there is overlap. Grands are brought in more rarely and for more common or reoccurring threats but most of the time when there's a Beast or an Evil of Humanity around. From a narrative perspective, I can understand why King Hassan popping out of nowhere is weird. But lore-wise is just make sense for him to be there. Alaya's well known for doing the bare minimum, but he could have probably help Gil out to summon his servant, even though it wouldn't be necessary since there's plenty of True Ether around. But technically the fact that Merlin and King Hassan were present in this singularity is enough to state that Grands are actually doing their job in some way, as they should since they are supposed to appear anytime there's a Beast. Merlin was able to leave Avalon or even manifest earlier in Babylonia only because of Tiamat, same goes for King Hassan. He's the only dude in this whole universe who can force the concept of death upon Tiamat. (ORT wouldn't care, but still). It make sense for the CF to summon him. didn't gudao survive that explosion through dumb luck and the singularities through being exceptional at compatibility with servants Swagernator said: He's a self insert main character ... with literally no soul or personality ... so what do you think. Again, from a narrative perspective, it's just plot convenience as a self insert character. But lore-wise, it's all about the Counter Force who gave him this massive dumb luck since he has an exceptional compatibility with *Rayshifting* not servants. Maybe one day we will learn about his Origin, and everything is going to make sense as to why Gudao is still alive. |
VncriticalFeb 16, 2020 8:07 AM
| Once again we are attacked by bad CGI. |
| The CGI Tiamat tickles me. I can't find her scary at all. Also the bland empty self-insert doesn't have an origin. Ritsuka's just you. Not even window-dressed as other protagonists with a minium semblance of backstory, Nasu straightforward says he's (or she) just a rando. Has no personality so can get along with everyone who projects their personality on them. Ritsuka's not a protagonist, it's just the camera we see the protagonists and other cast interact. |
ThessFeb 16, 2020 8:16 AM
| Ah now they found a way to defeat Tiamat (with a bad CGI unfortunately), very interesting and also funny how they found out Ishtar lost Gugalanna lol |
Thess said: The CGI Tiamat tickles me. I can't find her scary at all. Also the bland empty self-insert doesn't have an origin. Ritsuka's just you. Not even window-dressed as other protagonists with a minium semblance of backstory, Nasu straightforward says he's (or she) just a rando. Has no personality so can get along with everyone who projects their personality on them. Ritsuka's not a protagonist, it's just the camera we see the protagonists and other cast interact. I wasn't talking about backstory but Origin (起源, Kigen). The thing that enabled the existence of an individual. And as to why Ritsuka is still alive if he's following his Origin through the mainstory of FGO. Sure, he's a self-insert character like I mentioned before. But he definitely has a bigger role than before as his own character in the Lostbelt chapters. |
VncriticalFeb 16, 2020 9:40 AM
Swagernator said: tru but there's gotta be some in-universe excuse so that we don't think about it for too longAure0lin said: didn't gudao survive that explosion through dumb luck and the singularities through being exceptional at compatibility with servants He's a self insert main character ... with literally no soul or personality ... so what do you think. |
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Aure0lin said: but i just wish that he actually had some interesting scenes/dialogue and maybe a bit more involvement before the last 30~ minutes of the entire story. But why though? It's supposed to come has a surprise. Sure, it's going to be weird for an anime only, but plot-wise, I don't understand why you want KH to have a bigger role in this story. We already have Camelot for that. |
Vncriticalshit said: Thess said: The CGI Tiamat tickles me. I can't find her scary at all. Also the bland empty self-insert doesn't have an origin. Ritsuka's just you. Not even window-dressed as other protagonists with a minium semblance of backstory, Nasu straightforward says he's (or she) just a rando. Has no personality so can get along with everyone who projects their personality on them. Ritsuka's not a protagonist, it's just the camera we see the protagonists and other cast interact. I wasn't talking about backstory but Origin (起源, Kigen). The thing that enabled the existence of an individual. And as to why Ritsuka is still alive if he's following his Origin through the mainstory of FGO. Sure, he's a self-insert character like I mentioned before. But he definitely has a bigger role than before as his own character in the Lostbelt chapters. She/He's supposed to be an unremarkable normal person. It'll be like Mikiya or similar. Not really, in lostbelt chapters only acts as the deposit of Roman's will at best but doesn't do much. There's no character arc or progression. Mashu has more turmoil if anyone. The real focus is the Crypters there. |
ThessFeb 16, 2020 10:51 AM
Vncriticalshit said: babylonia is still its own story, and it should be able to stand on its own without leaning on prior works or the source material. Aure0lin said: but i just wish that he actually had some interesting scenes/dialogue and maybe a bit more involvement before the last 30~ minutes of the entire story. But why though? It's supposed to come has a surprise. Sure, it's going to be weird for an anime only, but plot-wise, I don't understand why you want KH to have a bigger role in this story. We already have Camelot for that. |
Aure0linFeb 16, 2020 11:06 AM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
Dbtta said: kei78 said: What does NP means?Today + Ereshkigal Damegami Damegami NP Today - CGI burned my eyes Well, it culd be worst but is was smooth last week NP = Noble Phantasm |
| Visual Novels should have a place in this site, really |
Aure0lin said: babylonia is still its own story, and it should be able to stand on its own without leaning on prior works or the source material. No, it shouldn't. Fate/Grand Order as a whole is the story, Camelot and Babylonia are just chapters among those singularity that represent part 1 of FGO. Which's just a gigantic prologue to part 2 with the Lostbelt chapters. It wouldn't make any sense for Gilgamesh to have a bigger role in Solomon chapter for the sake of standing on its own, since we already have plenty of him with Babylonia. Same goes for KH, not a single person who has played FGO is going to make such statement like yourself. It didn't feel weird in the game, but I can understand why it would for an anime only. |
VncriticalFeb 16, 2020 11:04 AM
Vncriticalshit said: they're chapters that are gigantic enough to have their own self-contained stories and character arcs. gilgamesh also doesn't need much in salomon because he's not a pivotal character in that chapter. KH is in babylonia.Aure0lin said: babylonia is still its own story, and it should be able to stand on its own without leaning on prior works or the source material. No, it shouldn't. Fate/Grand Order as a whole is the story, Camelot and Babylonia are just chapters among those singularity that represent part 1 of FGO. Which's just a gigantic prologue to part 2 with the Lostbelt chapters. It wouldn't make any sense for Gilgamesh to have a bigger role in Solomon chapter for the sake of standing on its own, since we already have plenty of him with Babylonia. Same goes for KH, not a single person who has played FGO is going to make such statement like yourself. It didn't feel weird in the game, but I can understand why it would for an anime only. if it makes you feel better to call me an anime-only because i don't fit your idea of an fgo player who has to love everything that happens in the story, then that's on you. you should at least admit you're doing a "no true scotsman" tho |
Aure0linFeb 16, 2020 11:27 AM
| "I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says. I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby". "She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other." |
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