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| I was laughing so hard due to how bad the first part of the episode was that I only stopped midway through Chiaki's execution, which made me feel bad. :/ Her speech to Izuru was stupid though. How did she survive after being impalled like that? He didn't even show up soon after all that... I guess this will really turn out to be the worst anime I'll finish watching. Oh well... |
trannon1 said: MonoReaper said: It sill bugs me how the went all full despair in this episode. I mean remeber this or the conversation between Nagito and Monokuma?  Instead of that, you get this:  A bunch of drooling idiots.  They never contradicted themselves though. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ |
"Hi!" |
trannon1 said: MonoReaper said: It sill bugs me how the went all full despair in this episode. I mean remeber this or the conversation between Nagito and Monokuma? Instead of that, you get this: A bunch of drooling idiots. I mean, isn't it confirmed that Junko can be considered a liar as well though? In some way? I mean when I think about it of course... she did lied a lot of times in a way xD |
Genius, if only this picture hasn't been pulled every week since brain-washing started. |
trannon1 said: Genius, if only this picture hasn't been pulled every week since brain-washing started. The exact same could be said about the transcript as well. |
"Hi!" |
Yehart said: trannon1 said: Genius, if only this picture hasn't been pulled every week since brain-washing started. The exact same could be said about the transcript as well. How long do you think, before they manage to take over the world? 10 years? I estimate 1 year of recovery since they look like they just had a stroke and regressed to babyhood. |
| So Izuru cried... now I wonder if he somehow digitalized Chiaki and that maybe his master plan for SDR2 was not to revive Junko, but to let Chiaki get another shoot at saving everyone? Also, I'm baffled that people needed a confirmation that Sakakura was in love with Munakata. The guy was always obsessed with Munakata but did not show almost any emotion when Chisa died in Mira-hen (did he think about her even once?). It was clear as day that he fancied Munakata, not Chisa. Manecleis said: Irseus said: And since their bond is really strong, it must be really sad for them to watch one of their friends being tortured sadistically. So sad, indeed. Honestly, there's nothing that can justify this outcome - they were like this RIGHT AFTER Nanami died brutally. This is not sadness, defeat and resignation, it's creepy excitement and twisted despair without the brainwashing, brain-messing parts. It was poorly written, and that's a shame since the whole point of the Despair arc was to get to that. Mitarai's brainwashign techniques. Mitarai's.Fucking.Brainwashing.Techniques. The entire damn video was filled with sublime brainwashing, with Nanami serving as a trigger to turn them insane. Manecleis said: I'm watching the french subbed version and they can't move because of the footage of Nanami's torture, eventhough it's broadcast live and therefore, there's no brainwashing technique applied to it? Junko used brainwashing to paralyze them. trannon1 said: This honestly doesn't make sense anymore. Where are the red eyes I was promised from Mirai-hen's opening? What was the point of the Twilight Incident if it has no bearing on Class 77's despair? I was so sure that Tsumiki, Peko, Kuzuryuu, Hiyoko, Ibuki, and Mahiru's despair was based on that, since the girls murdered Kuzuryuu's sister and Kuzuryuu murdered their friend in return. I don't remember SDR2 ever suggesting that the Twilight Syndrome was used to push anyone into Despair. It's main role was to be a motive for second murder and to prove that the cast really were going to school together once. trannon1 said: Sublimal messaging of despair tapes with friend going through torture for over 5 minutes vs. the simple action of seeing your beloved teacher killing your friend in front of you. I call this wasted effort, especially since the latter makes much more sense as to why they would fall to despair. Throwing someone into Despair and turning someone into an Ultimate Despair are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Such an event would never ever turn them into Junko's loyal lapdogs. It could shake them up and it could kill their motivations, but it could not make them work for Junko temporally yet alone make them serve her long after her death (to the point they would sacrifice their own selves for her resurrection). And unless you are rotten to the core or brainwashed, you can't become an Ultimate Despair fanatically loyal to Junko. And we know from SDR2 that they are not rotten to the core. trannon1 said: Because it doesn't really make sense? I mean if I saw my friend being tortured then killed, I would want revenge. Aren't these idiots supposed to be Ultimates? Alright, they are high-school kids, but still. Let's put this another way, if instead of watching a video of their friend being tortured and killed for 5 minutes, they saw Chisa, their beloved teacher for quite some time now, killing their friend right in front of them, I would say that would have been more reasonable, make more sense, and more despair-inducing. Someone they trust killing their friend, not many people can recover from that. I call the execution wasted effort and time. If they were just shown a normal video, they would want revenge, yes. But they weren't shown a normal video. They were given a video whose content broke their willpower and whose sublime messaging directly fucked up with their brains. As for their faces, they are SUPPOSED to look stupid and crazy. Their status as Ultimate Despair are supposed to be pitiful and disgusting, not cool, dignified or edgy. They lost their humanity and became drolling lunatics that would happily implant Junko's body parts onto themselves. MonoReaper said: It sill bugs me how the went all full despair in this episode. I mean remeber this or the conversation between Nagito and Monokuma? What was the source again? Future Foundation which not only lacked intel, but also had absolutely no positive opinion about them? Monokuma who was never a reliable source of info and enjoyed looking at them believing that they did it willingly? |
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Yehart said: The exact same could be said about the transcript as well. And neither are a reliable source. |
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| With the student council killing and Chiaki's death, it's starting to make Komaeda's "suicide" in SDR2 look like a joke :P That being said, the brainwashing wasn't what I was hoping for and wasn't what we were told before. I know Monokuma/Junko's a liar and all, but it's easy to differentiate Monokuma's lies from truth just by the tone of his voice. It's obvious that Kodaka just wanted to do things differently and said "screw whatever was said before". Though they all went to despair because of Mitarai's subliminal additions to the video, since Chiaki's death wouldn't be enough for them to go in complete despair, right? Oh god, I knew Chiaki's death won't be an easy one, but Kodaka's really showcasing how big of a sadist he is. It's funny how Chiaki was still able to talk after being impaled by god knows how many spears. But man, a bit of Hinata is alive in Kamukura. Dem feels ;_; And I love that Sakakura actually loved Munakata. I didn't see that coming, even though I should've :D Also based Ogata Megumi! Komaeda's voice acting is always great, but he sounded even better in this episode. Kibousexual ftw! So I'm guessing that the next episode will be the Remnants of Despair terrorizing the world and maybe in the final episode, we can have the series ending with the SDR2 characters on Jabberwock Island and end with some hope :3 5/5 |
GoldenDevilGamerSep 15, 2016 3:54 PM
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Nayrael said: Manecleis said: So sad, indeed. Honestly, there's nothing that can justify this outcome - they were like this RIGHT AFTER Nanami died brutally. This is not sadness, defeat and resignation, it's creepy excitement and twisted despair without the brainwashing, brain-messing parts. It was poorly written, and that's a shame since the whole point of the Despair arc was to get to that. Mitarai's brainwashign techniques. Mitarai's.Fucking.Brainwashing.Techniques. The entire damn video was filled with sublime brainwashing, with Nanami serving as a trigger to turn them insane. So brainwashing's the new Deux Ex Machina as to convey why it makes sense? Because it doesn't. People turn suicidal after long exposure to abuse. I know, because I have felt suicidal once before. It was pure depression, heaviness, I hated God, the world, and honestly wished I had a button that could just end everything. It is impossible for Despair to be this simple. Nayrael said: Manecleis said: I'm watching the french subbed version and they can't move because of the footage of Nanami's torture, eventhough it's broadcast live and therefore, there's no brainwashing technique applied to it? Junko used brainwashing to paralyze them. Again, is brainwashing the new Deux Ex Machina? Nayrael said: trannon1 said: This honestly doesn't make sense anymore. Where are the red eyes I was promised from Mirai-hen's opening? What was the point of the Twilight Incident if it has no bearing on Class 77's despair? I was so sure that Tsumiki, Peko, Kuzuryuu, Hiyoko, Ibuki, and Mahiru's despair was based on that, since the girls murdered Kuzuryuu's sister and Kuzuryuu murdered their friend in return. I don't remember SDR2 ever suggesting that the Twilight Syndrome was used to push anyone into Despair. It's main role was to be a motive for second murder and to prove that the cast really were going to school together once. SDR2 did not outright say it, but it was a good implication, since they actually KILLED students. With their own hands. Tsumiki, Ibuki, Hiyoko, Mahiru, and her friend were all responsible for killing Kuzuryuu's sister. And it was implied that Kuzuryuu killed the friend in return. Wouldn't that be more realistic for despair? Killing someone is very easy, but the act itself is extremely difficult. Enough that you can feel guilt for the rest of your lives, giving leverage to (cough) manipulate. Goes hand-in-hand with what we do know about Junko from the games. Nayrael said: trannon1 said: Sublimal messaging of despair tapes with friend going through torture for over 5 minutes vs. the simple action of seeing your beloved teacher killing your friend in front of you. I call this wasted effort, especially since the latter makes much more sense as to why they would fall to despair. Throwing someone into Despair and turning someone into an Ultimate Despair are two COMPLETELY DIFFERENT THINGS. Such an event would never ever turn them into Junko's loyal lapdogs. It could shake them up and it could kill their motivations, but it could not make them work for Junko temporally yet alone make them serve her long after her death (to the point they would sacrifice their own selves for her resurrection). And unless you are rotten to the core or brainwashed, you can't become an Ultimate Despair fanatically loyal to Junko. And we know from SDR2 that they are not rotten to the core. They are Ultimate Despair. Goddammit, they are called the Remnants of Despair because they are the survivors of Ultimate Despair. Go look it up in the wikia. Nayrael said: trannon1 said: Because it doesn't really make sense? I mean if I saw my friend being tortured then killed, I would want revenge. Aren't these idiots supposed to be Ultimates? Alright, they are high-school kids, but still. Let's put this another way, if instead of watching a video of their friend being tortured and killed for 5 minutes, they saw Chisa, their beloved teacher for quite some time now, killing their friend right in front of them, I would say that would have been more reasonable, make more sense, and more despair-inducing. Someone they trust killing their friend, not many people can recover from that. I call the execution wasted effort and time. If they were just shown a normal video, they would want revenge, yes. But they weren't shown a normal video. They were given a video whose content broke their willpower and whose sublime messaging directly fucked up with their brains. As for their faces, they are SUPPOSED to look stupid and crazy. Their status as Ultimate Despair are supposed to be pitiful and disgusting, not cool, dignified or edgy. They lost their humanity and became drolling lunatics that would happily implant Junko's body parts onto themselves. And they are also supposed to be the ones to destroy the world. I would not object to them being not cool, but they need to be scary. They can be pitiful and disgusting even while being scary. Just look at Betelgeuse from Re:Zero. And Scary they are not. Also you just mentioned how they are not Ultimate Despair, and now you are saying they are, way to contradict yourself. Also, enough about sublime brainwashing. Hynosis? Sure. Manipulating one's mind for simple actions when their mind is in a state of haziness? Sure. Making someone kill themselves despite them being conscious and not wanting to? Wtf have you been drinking? Nayrael said: MonoReaper said: It sill bugs me how the went all full despair in this episode. I mean remeber this or the conversation between Nagito and Monokuma? What was the source again? Future Foundation which not only lacked intel, but also had absolutely no positive opinion about them? Monokuma who was never a reliable source of info and enjoyed looking at them believing that they did it willingly? This was from the game, you know, the original content? And this makes much more sense than brainwashing with a video. Even if Junko is a liar, she only lies when it is convenient for her. Other than that, she always tells the truth. This in no way is convenient for her, so there is no reason to lie. |
trannon1Sep 15, 2016 4:03 PM
Nayrael said: Yehart said: The exact same could be said about the transcript as well. And neither are a reliable source. Why would the real Neagi lie about them being brainwashed? |
"Hi!" |
| @trannon1 I think it's that Mitarai's ultimate ability allows him to put subliminal messages in his videos/anime and allows him to fiddle around with other people's emotions, despite the actual video not being anything too extreme. |
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| It would have been literally impossible to turn them into ultimate despairs without brainwashing them but there were ways to use that and still keep Junko’s personal touch. She should have used a different method on each one individually by exploiting their personalities and traumas on top of the brainwashing. For example brainwash Mahiru into thinking that only despair is beautiful enough to take pictures of , convince Kuzuryu that it’s the entire world’s fault that his sister died ,brainwash Tanaka into believeing that his animals are demons and they are here to help him destroy the world etc etc On top of making them feel ecstasy while experiencing despair or something. They shouldn’t have gone with this mass brainwashing . But at least it wasn't a video of just some random student council members killing themselves but of their "hope" getting tortured. That makes it easier to accept . Well even with that disappointment I still enjoyed this anime tremendously. It was literally fan service(the good kind) for me . |
| I always expected Junko brainwashing people. But like her sister Mukuro/Mitari or newest we saw Juzo. Blackmailing and brainwashing yes. This is our Junko. By watching and Anime going mental and being a full despair or by reading a book and word by word going mental and going full despair is bullshit. I would accpect it for reserve studends. Hack i also accpected it by Chisa. But why would you give all these characters such a dark backround for nothing? Mikans father sexual absued her and she was bullied=despair Kuuzuryuus sister got killed he for the first time killed someone and went despair because he took his place as a son/heir of a Yakuza clan/boss seriously + Peko followed him because she failed her whole existence as bodyguard. Ibukis unstable personality and the fall out with her fromer band. Tanakas parents and that he was a unwanted child his heavy familiy problems and his complex about his mother and dirty blood. And so on. We all knew from DR2 that everyone in the 77th class had serious problems with people and more than one messed up circumstance. And this all this info about them all this character development of them and the whole thing how Junko seemed to use all this to make them the RoD for nothing? We got an brainwashing Anime? DR always had heavy brainwashing themes. Kamukura, DR1 memory wipe, DR0 first memory wipe but Junko made it back alone from her alter Ego Ryoko, Mind controle helmets from DRAnotherEpisode, DR2 again memory wipe trough the NeoWorldProgamm. There was always brainwashing in some form and it was always explained and somewhat logical for this universe. BUT this was never mentioned. It is not the case of Kamukuras killing game. The thing that Junko lied and used this was logical and in the fandom always suspect because Kamukura was the Übermensch so why would he participate in the first place with his power he could escape easily. This time we have so much hints so much information about the entire cast their backround and the whole incidient itself. And all for nothing? Forgotten and never used? This is not the level of writing/plot twist i know from Kodaka that always had a suprise a shocker a mindfuck. This is just meh.....out of context. Expected but not logical. It is just sad that so much build up for certan events will never happen or happened because of the evil Anime & the evil book that makes you despair. |
| [quote=Yehart message=47781979] trannon1 said: Genius, if only this picture hasn't been pulled every week since brain-washing started. The exact same could be said about the transcript as well.[/quote This screenshot is from my game so would you care to explain where else you saw this picture? Expect tumblr where i also posted it today? |
| People are still complaining about brainwashing? We already know about it since a while. "But it's unrealistic" yeah like every ultimate talent in Danganronpa, I mean just look at Nagito. I rather have it this way. I wouldn't trust them to have good enough writing to make the change of some of those characters believable (Mahiru, Gundam, Akane, Nidai, Sonia) Definitely not in a 12 episode anime. |
MonoReaper said: It sill bugs me how the went all full despair in this episode. I mean remeber this or the conversation between Nagito and Monokuma? This is ridiculous. Junko does this type of stuff all the time, she will hide lies among truths to make the lies seem more real. And herself far more powerful and influential than she actually is. We are never given a straight answer about how everyone fell to despair in DR2. In fact there's been a lot more hints that brainwashing was always the case. From the brainwashing of the reserve course students we see in DR0, to Makoto saying everyone has been brainwashed, to Junko saying "maybe we hypnotized you, or opened your skulls and mess with your brains?" That combined with the fact the DR2 cast never had the amount issues or problems to believably become mass murdering psychopaths who killed billions leads brainwashing to be the only sensible conclusion. |
| I read some comments and can't do anything but laugh. You guys seriously think one person can turn another into a psychotic killer just by using some lame speech about despair? Reality is not always like this, kids, go out from your bubble just for a bit. Yeah, the brainwashing video is not really the best explanation for the class turning into despair, but it makes way more sense than Junko somehow turning them all into sick, twisted people by talking to them about despair. Yeah, I know in SDR2 Kodaka said otherwise, but oh well, not even Shakespeare's writing was perfect. By the way, Junko didn't just broadcast Chiaki's death. She did it using Mitarai's brainwashing techniques at the same time. Junko says it herself, that she needed more despair to turn the class into her puppets, and what can cause more despair than killing their "leader"?. If they had just watched the torture without any brainwashing, they would have just remained sad and angry. As for the episode, no doubt is the most saddest and painful to watch episode so far, and one of the best episodes of despair. We all knew Chiaki was going to die, but I never thought it was going to be so painful to watch. And the last scene was so touching, and Izuru crying was like feeling an arrow piercing my heart. This just confirms my theory more and more, that Kamukura is not entirely a bad guy, and even now Hajime still lives through him. Man, thank you, Kodaka, for making Izuru a much deeper character. My only complain is that Juzo suddenly being defeated was lame, and the blackmailing was even more lame. But other than that it was a solid episode. If Kodaka manages to make the next episodes to be much better and great, Despair side would have reached the level of masterpiece. |
KamuiGavinSep 15, 2016 4:32 PM
Bat_Knight said: MonoReaper said: It sill bugs me how the went all full despair in this episode. I mean remeber this or the conversation between Nagito and Monokuma? This is ridiculous. Junko does this type of stuff all the time, she will hide lies among truths to make the lies seem more real. And herself far more powerful and influential than she actually is. We are never given a straight answer about how everyone fell to despair in DR2. In fact there's been a lot more hints that brainwashing was always the case. From the brainwashing of the reserve course students we see in DR0, to Makoto saying everyone has been brainwashed, to Junko saying "maybe we hypnotized you, or opened your skulls and mess with your brains?" That combined with the fact the DR2 cast never had the amount issues or problems to believably become mass murdering psychopaths who killed billions leads brainwashing to be the only sensible conclusion. It would still be more believable than brainwashing people through a video. I agree that videos can make people feel certain emotions. But enough that they will change personality? That they will willingly commit mass genocide? Commit mass suicide? |
MonoReaper said: It sill bugs me how the went all full despair in this episode. I mean remeber this or the conversation between Nagito and Monokuma? Again >Believing Junko She says in the same trial that Izuru killed the enire council |
| Well, at least now we know why Kamukura smashed the heads of both kurokuma and shirokuma with such anger, like the bears said, he never showed any emotions, aaaaaaaaand this also showed us how he started to go against Enoshima, so Im just going to assume that Hinata was one with Izuru since this moment in particular... still, long live the queen long live Enoshima Junko |
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trannon1 said: Well yeah I agree, it is a cheap way to handle things. That being said, Danganronpa has a lot of "cheap" or "asspull" moments, especially Komaeda's luckGoldenDevilGamer said: @trannon1 I think it's that Mitarai's ultimate ability allows him to put subliminal messages in his videos/anime and allows him to fiddle around with other people's emotions, despite the actual video not being anything too extreme. I am not saying that Mitarai is unable to do that. I am just saying that it is cheap and bad writing. Danganronpa is a psychological show, and this just took psychology and threw it out of the window with brainwashing wthrough video being the solution to everything from converting Future Foundation members, to Ultimates, to normal students, to the entire world. |
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KamuiGavin said: My only complain is that Juzo suddenly being defeated was lame, and the blackmailing was even more lame. But other than that it was a solid episode. Yeah Juzo being defeated doesn't make any sense. Every character with a physical related talent in danganronpa is incredibly strong and he simply lost and they didn't even show how. |
trannon1 said: Bat_Knight said: This is ridiculous. Junko does this type of stuff all the time, she will hide lies among truths to make the lies seem more real. And herself far more powerful and influential than she actually is. We are never given a straight answer about how everyone fell to despair in DR2. In fact there's been a lot more hints that brainwashing was always the case. From the brainwashing of the reserve course students we see in DR0, to Makoto saying everyone has been brainwashed, to Junko saying "maybe we hypnotized you, or opened your skulls and mess with your brains?" That combined with the fact the DR2 cast never had the amount issues or problems to believably become mass murdering psychopaths who killed billions leads brainwashing to be the only sensible conclusion. It would still be more believable than brainwashing people through a video. I agree that videos can make people feel certain emotions. But enough that they will change personality? That they will willingly commit mass genocide? Commit mass suicide? When it's done by the Ultimate animator whose talent is about influencing people? Sure. I've seen far more absurd talents in Danganronpa. And at least this doesn't completely go against the characterization of the DR2 cast. |
trannon1 said: Rukoudiora said: Why are you only now complaining about the brainwashing? We knew since Ryota was introduced to us, he can brainwash people into hope, Junko just did the opposite, it's not hard to understand. Also people also turn suicidal after 1 day, did you know that? It happened to me, so I can confirm. It IS possible for despair to be this simple, speaking from experience. To your experience of feeling suicidal after 1 day, I am sorry to hear that. That said, I have been disgusted with the brainwashing for some time now, but I did not expect them to subject the main characters who were direct members of Ultimate Despair to the same treatment as mob characters. Rukoudiora said: In the end, Mahiru, Hiyoko, Ibuki and Tsumiki did nothing wrong. It was Sato that killed Fuyuhiko's sister, I don't see how they would fall into despair over something so silly, especially since Mahiru didn't like Fuyuhiko's sister (They didn't communicate very well). In the end, Fuyuhiko and Peko are members of the mafia, killing a bitch that killed his sister wont bring despair at all, in fact, it will actually make him happy, same goes for Peko. It would be cheap if this was the reason anyone actually fell into despair. Having your friend kill someone for your sake, someone you personally know, that doesn't bring despair? I'm sorry, are you actually human? From your words, you must have felt some horrible things, and I am sorry, since they probably broke something within you, but normal people, especially High School kids, will feel something. Guilt. Wow, you have the be the first person to call killing someone cheap. Are you forgetting that these are High School Students? Mafia or not, they are kids. No matter what, killing someone is something hard to do personally. And as adolescents, they are the type that will go and confront the person responsible. Just look at Kuzuryuu's actions in SDR2. That confirmed the guilt of the 5 girls as well as the way Kuzuryuu and Peko would have reacted. You have to remember, it was a symbol of hope to the class that got killed along with brainwashing techniques. I'm glad it wasn't the student council's video, but this makes sense to me. Okay, I understand you aren't happy with the brainwashing thing but I personally don't see how else you'd get someone like Nekomaru or Gundham or even Akane to fall into despair. This is to me, the most logical conclusion. It's not like Mahiru ASKED Sato to kill Fuyuhiko's sister, if you even look back at episode 3, Mahiru believed Sato that she didn't kill. I rule out Mahiru and co. out because of this. Someone like Fuyuhiko and Peko killing someone they hate and not feeling despair is understandable even if they are high school students. Let me ask you this. Did Leon fall into despair after he killed Sayaka? No. Did Mondo fall into despair? No. Did Celeste? No. etc. Killing someone doesn't necessarily bring despair, it depends on the person too. Someone like Fuyuhiko who is the heir to the biggest mafia clan in Japan wont fall into despair after killing someone who killed his sister. It's not that I'm heartless, I'm just thinking based on the series, not in real life. Sorry if I offended you in some way by the way. |
| People still bitching about the brainwashing? LOL Come on, this is getting old. |
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Manecleis said: What the hell? What the hell? What the hell? I'm watching the french subbed version and they can't move because of the footage of Nanami's torture, eventhough it's broadcast live and therefore, there's no brainwashing technique applied to it? What does being live have to do with having or not brainwashing? Mitarai mind manipulation technics are applied not in what you present it, but how you present it...like angles, colors, how the camera moves and whatever more...Junko simply used those exact technics in the video... |
| You are not your body, you are your brain, the "self" that emerges from within it. |
trannon1 said: This was from the game, you know, the original content? And this makes much more sense than brainwashing with a video. Even if Junko is a liar, she only lies when it is convenient for her. Other than that, she always tells the truth. This in no way is convenient for her, so there is no reason to lie. I don't really that a group of teenagers destroying the world because a gayru said that life is shit makes more sense than brainwashing,That's thing in real life. Junko IS a liar. Remember - DR case 5 - She saying that the DR1 cast would die if they go outside - Her flashback with Matsuda - Izuru killing the entire council |
Pride-Sep 15, 2016 4:50 PM
trannon1 said: So brainwashing's the new Deux Ex Machina as to convey why it makes sense? Because it doesn't. People turn suicidal after long exposure to abuse. I know, because I have felt suicidal once before. It was pure depression, heaviness, I hated God, the world, and honestly wished I had a button that could just end everything. It is impossible for Despair to be this simple. Which would be fine if Junko wanted them to commit suicide. But she doesn't. trannon1 said: Again, is brainwashing the new Deux Ex Machina? Brainwashing is a story trope, and a technique regularly used even in real world by terrorist groups (and Ultimate Despairs are a terrorist group, so it actually fits them). If you consider it a Deus Ex Machina, then feel free doing so. But it is a trope that fits the context for multiple reasons, even if it is not what some people here wanted. trannon1 said: SDR2 did not outright say it, but it was a good implication, since they actually KILLED students. With their own hands. Tsumiki, Ibuki, Hiyoko, Mahiru, and her friend were all responsible for killing Kuzuryuu's sister. And it was implied that Kuzuryuu killed the friend in return. Wouldn't that be more realistic for despair? Killing someone is very easy, but the act itself is extremely difficult. Enough that you can feel guilt for the rest of your lives, giving leverage to (cough) manipulate. It is not about manipulating them, it is about turning them insane. And these guys were ultimately loyal to Junko and were ready to sacrifice themselves for her long after her death. Which is the problem: they don't need to just be Ultimate Despairs. They need to be Ultimate Despairs as described by SDR2. And they are described as lunatics that have complete and unquestionable loyalty to their goddess Junko. trannon1 said: They are Ultimate Despair. Goddammit, they are called the Remnants of Despair because they are the survivors of Ultimate Despair. Go look it up in the wikia. I said that falling into Despair is a different thing than turning into an Ultimate Despair. Your reply has absolutely nothing to do with what I said. trannon1 said: And they are also supposed to be the ones to destroy the world. I would not object to them being not cool, but they need to be scary. They can be pitiful and disgusting even while being scary. Just look at Betelgeuse from Re:Zero. And Scary they are not. Also you just mentioned how they are not Ultimate Despair, and now you are saying they are, way to contradict yourself. No, that's just you not bothering to read what I wrote. What I was saying is that Junko had to turn them into Ultimate Despairs, not merely have them fall to Despair (though the later is one of necessary steps for the first, it is far from enough). What I said is that they did not merely fall into Despair, but have been turned into Ultimate Despairs, aka Junko's lapdogs. As for scariness: if someone teleported me into the room with the guys on that screenshot, I'd run as fast as I can because they do look like a bunch of psychos. Nobody sane or harmless makes such a face. Not that they will make such faces all the time. Like most Anime psychos, they will look sane when they need to. But in some cases, like here and certainly like when they put Junko's body parts onto themselves, they will make these faces as per rules of Anime Tropes. Heck, Mikan had such expressions in SDR2 (and seemingly Kuzuryu in one of flashback images) so it is not even something unique to DR3. trannon1 said: This was from the game, you know, the original content? It is not reliable in-story. Junko is not reliable because she has proven to be more than happy to lie and color the truth in order to accomplish her goals or just make people suffer. Future Foundation is not reliable because they are biased and probably lack intel on what actually happened with class 77. Naegi is not reliable because his brainwashing sentence is probably based on him wanting to trust in them. The only reliable source of clues would be if one of these Despairs said it. But only Mikan got her memories back and the only thing I remember that she said is that it was the fault of their mutual relationships... which fits this episode because they turned into Ultimate Despairs due to the mutual relationships that they developed with Nanami. THAT'S what I meant by reliable source. Monokuma, Future Foundation, Naegi... none of what they said is absolute truth because they either can't know the full story or they have a reason not to tell the full story. |
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trannon1 said: Bat_Knight said: This is ridiculous. Junko does this type of stuff all the time, she will hide lies among truths to make the lies seem more real. And herself far more powerful and influential than she actually is. We are never given a straight answer about how everyone fell to despair in DR2. In fact there's been a lot more hints that brainwashing was always the case. From the brainwashing of the reserve course students we see in DR0, to Makoto saying everyone has been brainwashed, to Junko saying "maybe we hypnotized you, or opened your skulls and mess with your brains?" That combined with the fact the DR2 cast never had the amount issues or problems to believably become mass murdering psychopaths who killed billions leads brainwashing to be the only sensible conclusion. It would still be more believable than brainwashing people through a video. I agree that videos can make people feel certain emotions. But enough that they will change personality? That they will willingly commit mass genocide? Commit mass suicide? And you believe that a speech about despair and other things related can turn a normal person into a psychotic murdered willing to destroy the world and cause suffering while enjoying it? LMAO. If someone like Junko came over to me, and started talking stuff about despair, how despair is great and whatever Junko would normally say, I would die of laughter. I can't think of anyone who would (realistically) take that bitch seriously. The brainwashing video explanation is a bit lame, I admit it, but is more believable than Junko influencing people to that level by just talking to them about despair. |
Feeling despair/guilt or negative emotions in general doesn’t automatically turn you into a murderous monster. All the depressed people think that they want to destroy the world but you don’t see them going on killing sprees. Junko can manipulate and destroy mentally anyone but brainwash was the only way to turn them into what was described in the second game. I agree that it could have been handled away better though. |
J1m1sSep 15, 2016 4:47 PM
trannon1 said: This was from the game, you know, the original content? And this makes much more sense than brainwashing with a video. Even if Junko is a liar, she only lies when it is convenient for her. Other than that, she always tells the truth. This in no way is convenient for her, so there is no reason to lie. And the brainwashing line from Naegi is also from the game. Besides, how this WOULD NOT be convenient for Junko? If she showed to them that she used their pasts to manipulate them and make them Super HIgh School Level Despair, then that would mean they woul be less "victims". They were used, yes, but it's pretty different from being a victim of brainwashing. The proof of that is in Another Episode . A victim of brainswashing means they couldn't resist to that AT ALL, they were forced to become like that. There's more hope to them returning to normal. And that transcript was shown during the fake Naegi part. |
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KamuiGavin said: trannon1 said: It would still be more believable than brainwashing people through a video. I agree that videos can make people feel certain emotions. But enough that they will change personality? That they will willingly commit mass genocide? Commit mass suicide? And you believe that a speech about despair and other things related can turn a normal person into a psychotic murdered willing to destroy the world and cause suffering while enjoying it? LMAO. If someone like Junko came over to me, and started talking stuff about despair, how despair is great and whatever Junko would normally say, I would die of laughter. I can't think of anyone who would (realistically) take that bitch seriously. The brainwashing video explanation is a bit lame, I admit it, but is more believable than Junko influencing people to that level by just talking to them about despair. Did you bother to read my reply to you? Scroll up. |
trannon1 said: I am not saying that Mitarai is unable to do that. I am just saying that it is cheap and bad writing. Danganronpa is a psychological show, and this just took psychology and threw it out of the window with brainwashing wthrough video being the solution to everything from converting Future Foundation members, to Ultimates, to normal students, to the entire world. Complaining about bad writing in DR is....weird. It is a series when a model destroy the world,Luck is a superpower,Chihiro created a very advanced AI in 3 days with a old laptop,a group of evil teddy bears are killing people,Ishimaru turn into a Super saiyan,10yo Monaka is the heir of a robot factory and Komaru was possessed by a ghost (And that was actually a plot point). Also, DR has Brainwash since DR0 (That was released before DR2),DRAE also has brainwashing helmets and Junko erasing memories in DR1 can be considered brainwash too. |
Pride-Sep 15, 2016 4:48 PM
KamuiGavin said: I read some comments and can't do anything but laugh. You guys seriously think one person can turn another into a psychotic killer just by using some lame speech about despair? Reality is not always like this, kids, go out from your bubble just for a bit. Yeah, the brainwashing video is not really the best explanation for the class turning into despair, but it makes way more sense than Junko somehow turning them all into sick, twisted people by talking to them about despair. Yeah, I know in SDR2 Kodaka said otherwise, but oh well, not even Shakespeare's writing was perfect. By the way, Junko didn't just broadcast Chiaki's death. She did it using Mitarai's brainwashing techniques at the same time. Junko says it herself, that she needed more despair to turn the class into her puppets, and what can cause more despair than killing their "leader"?. If they had just watched the torture without any brainwashing, they would have just remained sad and angry. As for the episode, no doubt is the most saddest and painful to watch episode so far, and one of the best episodes of despair. We all knew Chiaki was going to die, but I never thought it was going to be so painful to watch. And the last scene was so touching, and Izuru crying was like feeling an arrow piercing my heart. This just confirms my theory more and more, that Kamukura is not entirely a bad guy, and even now Hajime still lives through him. Man, thank you, Kodaka, for making Izuru a much deeper character. My only complain is that Juzo suddenly being defeated was lame, and the blackmailing was even more lame. But other than that it was a solid episode. If Kodaka manages to make the next episodes to be much better and great, Despair side would have reached the level of masterpiece. We humans have peoples in our history records that did this exactliy. The best example is Adolf Hitler. He was so good at talking and a charismatic leader that the people followed him. They killed for him in wars and even killed and gruesome amount of jewish people becasue he said they were pure evil and are the devils that are at fault for every evil in the world. This is was Junko was. Twisted and outright evil leaders like that. She was exactly that. Outright evil and charismatic enough to brainwash people for her own purposes. |
Rukoudiora said: trannon1 said: To your experience of feeling suicidal after 1 day, I am sorry to hear that. That said, I have been disgusted with the brainwashing for some time now, but I did not expect them to subject the main characters who were direct members of Ultimate Despair to the same treatment as mob characters. Having your friend kill someone for your sake, someone you personally know, that doesn't bring despair? I'm sorry, are you actually human? From your words, you must have felt some horrible things, and I am sorry, since they probably broke something within you, but normal people, especially High School kids, will feel something. Guilt. Wow, you have the be the first person to call killing someone cheap. Are you forgetting that these are High School Students? Mafia or not, they are kids. No matter what, killing someone is something hard to do personally. And as adolescents, they are the type that will go and confront the person responsible. Just look at Kuzuryuu's actions in SDR2. That confirmed the guilt of the 5 girls as well as the way Kuzuryuu and Peko would have reacted. You have to remember, it was a symbol of hope to the class that got killed along with brainwashing techniques. I'm glad it wasn't the student council's video, but this makes sense to me. Okay, I understand you aren't happy with the brainwashing thing but I personally don't see how else you'd get someone like Nekomaru or Gundham or even Akane to fall into despair. This is to me, the most logical conclusion. It's not like Mahiru ASKED Sato to kill Fuyuhiko's sister, if you even look back at episode 3, Mahiru believed Sato that she didn't kill. I rule out Mahiru and co. out because of this. Someone like Fuyuhiko and Peko killing someone they hate and not feeling despair is understandable even if they are high school students. Let me ask you this. Did Leon fall into despair after he killed Sayaka? No. Did Mondo fall into despair? No. Did Celeste? No. etc. Killing someone doesn't necessarily bring despair, it depends on the person too. Someone like Fuyuhiko who is the heir to the biggest mafia clan in Japan wont fall into despair after killing someone who killed his sister. It's not that I'm heartless, I'm just thinking based on the series, not in real life. Sorry if I offended you in some way by the way. You know the whole reason of a murder case in DR2 was because Mahiru at that time saw who killed Fuyuhikos sister and that`s why Peko killd her in the house near the beach. |
| Actually I guess looking back. Boxing is a 1v1 sport, Juzo was up against like 50 people including Junko who had analytical abilities to see what would happen. If you look at it like this, it makes sense he lost. |
| The execution of the brainwashing was really disappointing. I mean c'mon, the brainwashing is so strong that they just stand there? At least strap them into a chair like you did with Yukizome last week. I'm not turning against the show or anything since my interest in Danganronpa lies in the war between hope and despair combined with what happens when you push anime stereotypes/different talents to the breaking point (plus, I always found this to be the weaker of the two shows anyways since it suffers from Steins;Gate syndrome whereas Future started its plot right away), but this really should have played out better. And why are people saying this show is rushed? It was fucking slow as shit until the halfway point. Aside from Natsumi's murder nothing happened but character interactions and setup until Junko showed up. Rukoudiora said: Also yeah, I agree that Juzo losing to Junko was bullshit. This guy is the ultimate boxer that won the world title in fucking high school. Didn't she sic a gang of brainwashed students on him? There's no way he can take on that many at once. |
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