Dutch man loses family in Israeli attack, subsequently returns Israeli medal he got for saving a Jew during WWII

Shiratori99 said:

I've also heard that a wise man backs up his points by elaborating them when engaging into a discussion.

azzuRe said:


Yes, we all remember South Africa 1879

Noboru said:

Even though I understand your point, I can't agree with it.
First and foremost: this has been a personal decision made by the affected person himself.
Besides, I don't condemn or demand what people have to do. Also, it's his right to do with his medal as he pleases.

nucleon said:

225 Jewish survivors of Nazi Genocide condemning Israel’s massacre in Gaza. They further condemned "the United States for providing Israel with the funding to carry out the attack, and Western states more generally for using their diplomatic muscle to protect Israel from condemnation."
"Genocide begins with the silence of the world," they wrote.



Open Letter by 50 Israeli Army Reservists on Why They Refuse to Fight in Gaza: To us, the current military operation and the way militarization affects Israeli society are inseparable. In Israel, war is not merely politics by other means—it replaces politics. Israel is no longer able to think about a solution to a political conflict except in terms of physical might; no wonder it is prone to never-ending cycles of mortal violence. And when the cannons fire, no criticism may be heard.

nucleon said:

"Genocide begins with the silence of the world," they wrote.

Sophax said:
You must be a jew I suppose.

Genocide is bad mkay.

RedRoseFring said:



Apparently, some of us remember it quite differently from others.
Remember when those pesky blacks from a different region were firing rockets into white South Africa?
I really hope you don't, because that never happened.

RedRoseFring said:

But this brought another topic to my mind that seems to have been taken for granted for so long, and anyone is free to answer:
Why exactly do people expect those in Gaza and the West Bank to live under the exact same law as the Israelis when 1 of the main points of the conflict is to have their own state anyway?
Do we really expect the US to treat Canadians and Mexicans the exact same way as their own citizens?

RedRoseFring said:

#1: The Jews were there first, and 'No', it doesn't matter.

Sophax said:

Doesn't matter what you are tbh. All I know is that you're dead inside.

azzuRe said:

Please elaborate.

They don't. What I post earlier is the discrimination that is happening to Israeli citizen of Palestinian descend in Israeli land, which they should be guaranteed by Israeli law.

They are ruled by Palestinian authorities, but under Israeli military control. Palestinian citizens of West Bank and Gaza is not considered Israeli citizens and Israeli law does not apply to them, however the military often impose martial law on the occupied territories on the excuse of 'having no functional government', which is considered as an abuse and violation of international law.

Have you seen US impose a law to ban Mexicans to travel outside of their own country? or control its trade of which products is allowed and which is not? Have you seen US send troops and build houses across lake Ontario in Canadian territory?

Shiratori99 said:


Behold this insightful elaboration.

Okiura said:

He doesn't need to be one in order to return a medal honouring him for saving jews issued by a state
that committed massacres and killed his family prior to his action.

No one said you should. You had the liberty not to click on the title.

RedRoseFring said:


Where? Don't see it.

Coolspot said:
Cant base an entire race off 1 person

StopDropAndBowl said:
He needs to be one to have any realization whatsoever of the realities behind the "massacres" that Israel has supposedly committed and also to understand why his family was killed, and thus to give any credence whatsoever to his foolish decision to return the medal.

Why does anyone care what some senile old man with absolutely no relevance does or doesn't do?

RedRoseFring said:



If you need elaboration on "Blacks weren't firing rockets", you may as well return to pre-school.

RedRoseFring said:



Discrimination like?
It is very obvious that that is not what you were talking about, because there are no Israeli citizens in Gaza.

RedRoseFring said:



What laws? You do know that Arafat agreed to have the West Bank split and have sections under Israeli control in the Oslo Accords right? So your beef is with him (and maybe his widow who is enjoying billions in Europe while her people suffer), not Israel.

RedRoseFring said:



If you mean the law that prevents Mexicans from travelling into the US, then what exactly is the problem with that? If the US doesn't want Mexicans to enter it like Israel (with Egypt) doesn't want Gazans to enter them, what do you find unacceptable about the situation?
And those damn Canadians and their tunnels into US to kill US citizens! No wonder the US doesn't let materials for such purposes to go to them vile Canadians.
And also those troops they sent to halt the constant rocket fire from Canada into the US have done a spectacular job.

Of course, none of that ever happened, but one would wonder if the US' response would be any different.

Okiura said:

Have you read what comes after the title ? He didn't write about "massacres" in his letter. It was my description.
And requiring from him to be an expert on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in order to have the right to call for an investigation upon those who killed his family and been accused for war crimes is laughable, at best.

He did something that apparently bothers you as your remarks about him being senile, foolish and dumb cannot be taken as a serious argumentation.
That doesn’t prevent this story from being symbolic and interesting enough to be reported.

azzuRe said:
And yes, the troop is doing a spectacular job of maximum collateral damage

StopDropAndBowl said:

Israel could kill every living person in Gaza if they so chose. They have not even come close to maximizing the collateral damage.

StopDropAndBowl said:
Accused of war-crimes by who?

StopDropAndBowl said:
Yeah, war sucks, especially for the most defenseless, like women and children. Especially when one side uses women and children as human shields, and doesn't build infrastructure, but instead uses all it's money on missiles, guns, and tunnels.

It's a shitty situation, for both sides. The people in Gaza are living in a heavily-populated war-zone, and most have no ability to escape the fighting. The people of Israel are living under constant threat of terrorism and rocket-attacks, and can either ignore the attacks and embolden the attackers, or they can strike back at a guerrilla force that hides in a small, heavily populated, and extremely poor area.

On the one hand, Israel lets its citizens suffer, on the other, it invokes the wrath of a world that refuses to see the reality of the situation. Israel has chosen to ignore the wrath of misguided fools. I can't fault them for that decision.

azzuRe said:

oh, but they do armed resistance, including but not limited to, bomb attacks. But that's not the point here, I need you to elaborate of why "Israel is the only beacon of light in the Middle East closest to Western values".

You do know that Oslo Accord is already obsolete right? Especially since Israel started to expand settlement outside their designated area. Oh, to add the irony, in 2002 Israel launches military campaign to annihilate Palestinian authority in the west bank, and reclaiming total military control over the entire west bank territory, it also leads to siege on Arafat's compound, where he was isolated until his death. This is practically destroying everything what the accord is trying to prove.

Israel and Egypt has total control of what's going in or out of the Gaza strip, including people. It is a whole different level than an entry prohibition or embargo, it is practically a 'prison' system. And yes, the troop is doing a spectacular job of maximum collateral damage, who knows those little kids was going to be a terrorist too, better safe than sorry, right?

azzuRe said:

This recent conflict alone has caused more than 2.000 deaths on Gaza sides. Among those numbers 541 were children and 240 women civilian casualties.

MechaKiryu said:

RedRoseFring said:


If you don't know why by now, you should really visit the Middle East. Visit some synagogues from Libya to Iran (if you find any ;)

RedRoseFring said:



Kinda pointless because that is not the topic at hand. You complained about Israeli presence in the West Bank, and the truth remains that Arafat agreed to it. It's not like the death of Israeli citizens in the West Bank is in accord with the Oslo agreements.

RedRoseFring said:



First of all, where is your criticism of Egypt for this? It seems to be greatly lacking, and you know what kind of light that shines on you.
Second of all, are you saying that an embargo on blockade on Gaza is not called for?
And third of all, if they keep firing rockets, why are you concerned about the damaged infrastructure? They obviously don't care about it or they would have stopped, but they kept it going which indicates a couple of things, one being that Hamas values life less than their 'demands'.

Heck, if this was "maximum collateral damage", Israel is really slipping up. True maximum collateral damage would have Gaza as a parking lot in a matter of hours.

RedRoseFring said:
If you don't know why by now, you should really visit the Middle East. Visit some synagogues from Libya to Iran (if you find any ;)

Okiura said:

The harder you dig the deeper you get.

Do you ignore who accused Israel of war crimes ? If it's the case then you don't read information about this conflict and your opinions about it have no value.

Would it be beneficial to ask you what part of what he wrote is unfunded opinion ? no because you wont be able to support your answer from what he wrote and you'll elude the question like before.

It is particularly shocking and tragic that today, four generations on, our family is faced with the murder of our kin in Gaza. Murder carried out by the State of Israel[

You are offended by a 91 old man returning a medal issued by the state who killed his family and calling for an investigation on this in a letter you didn't read, would any of your criticism on the state of the media or or culture be taken seriously by anyone ? I don't think so.

RedRoseFring said:

That is one topic almost no one is daring to approach, but these forums are here to get at the tough questions.
So what exactly constitutes a 'civilian'?

azzuRe said:

On the argument of collateral damage, first lets take on the definition:

azzuRe said:
What about the apartheid analogy issue? would you mind addressing it as well?

whether the Palestinian should have the same rights as Israeli citizens.

My stance is the same against the current Egypt administration

You know invasion is a serious offense in the international diplomacy.

Regarding the damaged infrastructure, I was surprised to see your stance about the whole situation, so you're basically saying that Gaza deserves to receive collective punishment because some of the radical nuts launched rockets? You know how that sounds?

Collateral damage are assessed from the intended target, not from the whole population. If you intend to use the scale of the population as whole, then what you're measuring would rather be considered as genocide or mass murder scale.

Lets use the UN figures this time, data from United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs

On side notes, I think I need to make myself clear. I'm not on Hamas side, I'm not on IDF side, I'm not on Sisi side. I don't support terrorism, either by groups or a state, and I value both Palestinian and Israeli citizen life equally.

StopDropAndBowl said:

It is a tough question, and especially in a war like this, the question of who is a civilian and who isn't can get murky. In a normal war, a civillian is a person who is either 1) not a member of the armed forces of a State, or 2) not currently engaging in military actions.

In a war against Nazi Germany, the question is usually quite simple: are they a member of the German armed forces? Are they a member of a paramilitary resistance group?

In a war against Hamas, the question is very complicated. Hamas does not belong to a State, and is not an armed force in the sense that the US Army or the British Navy are armed forces. And they are not always engaged in direct military actions, yet I can't think of many people who would claim that members of Hamas are civilians.

And of course, the question also begs another: when is it acceptable to ignore the civilian cost of a military strike?

Most would give the knee-jerk reaction of "NEVER!!!"

But have they really thought over the issue? Probably not. If a nation is engaged in war then usually it is prudent to destroy their opponent's capability of waging war. And destroying infrastructure is usually an effective way of doing that. It's nasty business, yes, but the alternatives are usually driven by wishful thinking rather than cold calculation. Such practices have only recently been seen by the world at large as "unacceptable", and usually without any military consideration, but rather the misguided attempt of bleeding-hearts to seem compassionate

StopDropAndBowl said:

So are we now changing the goal-posts from "Israel intentionally maximizing collateral damage" to "there has been collateral damage"?

RedRoseFring said:

That one is simple. Gazans are not Israeli citizens. Although, the Palestinians living in Israel have a far better life than those in Gaza.

Again, they are not Israeli citizens, so the "protection of their rights" is the job of their own authority, not Israel's. We (Canadians) wouldn't go complaining to the U.S for not protecting our rights. You have complained about the rights of those in Gaza and the West Bank, but none of them are Israeli citizens. IS that so hard to understand?

RedRoseFring said:


Then why did it take my mentioning of Egypt for you to even bring them up? It seems that Israel is the only one in your sights.

RedRoseFring said:


Really? D-day and Normandy were serious offenses? Don't kid yourself. Taking action against a hostile force is a given for any sovereign nation. If the rockets don't fly, there would be no need for retaliation....as that is what retaliation entails.

RedRoseFring said:


Some? You know that they were elected into power right? Meaning that well over 40% of the population is in support of them.
If the rest feel so strongly about it, they should take steps to oust their offending rulers.
If the concrete meant for infrastructure could be hijacked by "some of the radical nuts", with the rest being silent, then the problem obviously runs deeper.

RedRoseFring said:


That word, 'genocide'...It doesn't mean what you think it means.
On a serious note though, How do you classify who is collateral damage? Those who don't fight, but hide the rockets in their homes? How about those who aid in the acquiring of materials? Or those who stay in homes in a bid to prevent them from being targeted?
There is collateral damage in almost every single conflict past and present. That is something that will not change, and all the more reason not to stupidly start a war. Unless you want to suggest that Hamas had no idea that people were going to die.

RedRoseFring said:


That would be nice.....if the UN was a reliable source. It took them weeks to find proof of Hamas use of their facilities, something that other news outlets, the IDF, and people who are aware of the prior conflicts already knew beyond a doubt. And they are willing to blindly accept Hamas' reports, which doesn't work so well when those sources are well-known and documented liars.
It is just one of many signs of the UN's impotence. They also refrain from giving the criteria for who counts as a civilian. Their idea of finding out goes something like: Investigator asks a family member: "Was he fighting".
Family member: "No."
Investigator: "Okay. We'll list him as a civilian."

RedRoseFring said:


Well, that is unfortunate because you bring basically nothing to the table. You help in no way to reach a solution.
And that stance actually means you don't value either of their lives, cause if you truly did, you would be searching for the roots of the problem and not dancing around it. Each side is guilty in some aspects, but unless you are willing to address the most important aspects and who is guilty of them, you help no one.

azzuRe said:

Come on, you are trying to use circular logic here. It is clear in my previous post about the root of the problem but you just toss it away.

Simple, Egypt did not launched a massive military campaign into Gaza, you were forcing the notion into the picture. You asked my opinion, and I give it.

First: Please read UN chapter, Article 2 point 4.
Second:There's big differences between Nazi Germany and Hamas, do you know what it is? how about the Germany invasion of Poland.
Third: International law is bullshit, but that is why Russia can't just waltz in to Ukraine, or Japan and South Korea can't just spank North Korea for eating all the cake.

You sound just like Ayeled Shaked.

Again, you are suggesting the collective punishment idea. Don't start a war so we don't have to kill your citizen along with your soldier.

Do you have proof, and maybe, suggest another source?
At least I'm bringing mine to the table.

*facepalm*