Serhiyko said: What does "real meaning" mean? People in Japan call "anime" ALL animation. Is that the "correct meaning"? As word "anime" is from Japan, hence we should follow Japanese definition. Then we should add all existent in the world cartoons to MAL and all other anime-related sites The same with "shoujo-ai". They may mean whatever they want with that words in Japan, but it already has different meaning in English, and I don't understand how any of those meanings is more "real" than other By "real", I meant the direct translations. I do not know if the Japanese people call the American cartoons "anime" as well, so I won't say a thing on that. However, you have said that they do in your post. Anyhow, yeah, the word "real" was capturing the direct translation and meaning from the Japanese language. We are currently using some phrases which aren't directly translated to the same meaning, but we are used to them already. As I've said, I'm perfectly fine with both. However, that is only when it comes to the anime culture. Elsewhere, such inaccurate and false translations aren't wanted. Hence why I've said "real". I covered the full-scale usage the phrases tell when saying that, not only the anime culture. |
Serhiyko said: I agree with this.t already has different meaning in English Whatever it means in japanese, people have already grown accustomed to using shoujo-ai so I don't think it should be changed. If anything it would be confusing for some people. So does shounen-ai refer to paedophilia in Japan as well? |
rederoin said: Would you mind giving numbers for that? I like the term since it's the equivalent of shonen-ai in female.Heredity said: Yes, let's orient MAL towards a foreign userbase that doesn't browse the website. Perfect. A large part of the western yuri fanbase hates the term. |
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| As I have already been quoted in the OP, I would like to see something done about the misuse of "shoujo-ai" and "shounen-ai". They need to be changed to "yuri" and "BL" for accuracy and consistency, as that is what MAL prides itself for its DB entries? I already know of one Anime DB mod that agrees with me that the outdated usage of shoujo-ai should no longer be used here. Now will the MAL staff actually do something about it, or continue to dodge the problem as with many other problems we have on MAL? Heredity said: Yes, let's orient MAL towards a foreign userbase that doesn't browse the website. Perfect. Not true. There are native Japanese also using MAL (I have seen posts at 2ch that have come from MAL), and some have expressed their astonishment at the misuse of the term "shoujo-ai". Vudis said: I agree with this. Whatever it means in japanese, people have already grown accustomed to using shoujo-ai so I don't think it should be changed. If anything it would be confusing for some people. So does shounen-ai refer to paedophilia in Japan as well? I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. |
EjcJan 30, 2014 9:44 AM
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Ejc said: BL is used for explicit sexual relationships. The equivalent of shonen-ai and yaoi, are yaoi and BL respectively.I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. |
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yazio said: Ejc said: BL is used for explicit sexual relationships. The equivalent of shonen-ai and yaoi, are yaoi and BL respectively.I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. As is for non-sexual relationships. BL and yuri are blanket terms for sexual and non-sexual relationships. If the western fanbase want to differentiate correctly, then this is how it should be done: Non-sexual: Yuri, BL Sexual: Yuri + Adult/18 restricted, BL + Adult/18 restricted. Even "hentai" is not used for 18+ material in Japan. Hentai actually means "pervert" or "strange/abnormal" in Japanese. |
EjcJan 30, 2014 9:52 AM
| The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
Ejc said: So, besides removing two tags, there would be a need to add another one to differentiate whether a yaoi/yuri/hentai was sexual or not?yazio said: Ejc said: BL is used for explicit sexual relationships. The equivalent of shonen-ai and yaoi, are yaoi and BL respectively.I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. As is for non-sexual relationships. BL and yuri are blanket terms for sexual and non-sexual relationships. If the western fanbase want to differentiate correctly, then this is how it should be done: Non-sexual: Yuri, BL Sexual: Yuri + Adult/18 restricted, BL + Adult/18 restricted. Even "hentai" is not used for 18+ material in Japan. Hentai actually means "pervert" or "strange/abnormal" in Japanese. |
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yazio said: Ejc said: So, besides removing two tags, there would be a need to add another one to differentiate whether a yaoi/yuri/hentai was sexual or not?yazio said: Ejc said: BL is used for explicit sexual relationships. The equivalent of shonen-ai and yaoi, are yaoi and BL respectively.I have not seen "shounen-ai" being used in Japan. The more common term nowadays is BL. As is for non-sexual relationships. BL and yuri are blanket terms for sexual and non-sexual relationships. If the western fanbase want to differentiate correctly, then this is how it should be done: Non-sexual: Yuri, BL Sexual: Yuri + Adult/18 restricted, BL + Adult/18 restricted. Even "hentai" is not used for 18+ material in Japan. Hentai actually means "pervert" or "strange/abnormal" in Japanese. I wouldn't mind hentai being used here, as sexual stuff can also be considered perverted, strange or whatever. So there's a way to differentiate from non-sexual yuri/BL. But yes, those two tags (shoujo-ai and shounen-ai) should be removed from here and/or replaced with yuri and BL respectively. Yuri is already available, but BL should be added if MAL actually gets more coders on board. The problem is on CraveOnline's end though, on why a small amount of significant changes have occurred here on MAL in recent times. |
EjcJan 30, 2014 10:18 AM
| The News Club: Quality News/Discussion (anime, CDs, manga, novels, games, seiyuu), & sales data (daily, weekly, mid-year, yearly). |
| Oh this again http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=516019&show=0#msg18247025 No offense but you really need to calm down about this yuri/shoujo ai genre crap. |
| There is no reason to change the tag. Language is just a collection of words with shared meaning. Most of MAL agrees the term 'shoujo ai' refers to girls' love, and so it does. That's how language works. |
| Shoujo-ai is redundant anyway, since we have a yuri tag which applies to all girl's love, sexual or not. I've never seen something like Yuru Yuri or Sakura Trick described as "shoujo-ai" in English, people use "yuri" instead. |
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| l propose keeping the shojo-ai tag but using it correctly (as little girl love) |
| This is turning into a far longer and deeper deal than it's worth it. Let's face it: This site focuses on entertainment. And although it is good to keep some standards up, it is the matter of understanding that's the key. I'm personally okay both ways, as said, but would like one setting to stay for a longer time after being changed/input, purely for the sake of users getting used to it and automatically connecting it with a specific topic. If Shoujo-Ai already tends to do that, then it's just fine, IMHO. |
Peiale said: However, that is only when it comes to the anime culture. Elsewhere, such inaccurate and false translations aren't wanted. Hence why I've said "real". I covered the full-scale usage the phrases tell when saying that, not only the anime culture. "Direct translation" is not "real meaning". And we are not using translation, we are using the words themselves that kind-of have become part of the language (maybe in some specialized sphere). Words come from one language to other and alter their meanings and sometime pronunciation and spelling, hence one meaning, pronunciation or spelling is not more "real" then other. They are all "real" in their own languages or dialects, as even in one language the same word may mean completely different things depending on the area. Why is that all of a sudden only restricted to the anime culture, I don't even... |
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| I was focusing specifically on Shoujo-Ai when saying that it's restricted for the anime culture only. You make a road in your post, and although it usually keeps to the topic, you come to a tad misguided solution in the end by stretching it and taking everything for granted. Regardless, I know what you mean. And I agree with it. Whatever is easier to understand and is used to, no need to turn MAL into an education site. Moreover, something that sounds "cool" never hurts, does it? ;) |
Heredity said: Ejc said: There are native Japanese also using MAL (I have seen posts at 2ch that have come from MAL), and some have expressed their astonishment at the misuse of the term "shoujo-ai". Fuck them. Catering to the extreme minority is an absolutely idiotic idea. But they've posted their arguments at 2ch, how can we take it lightly? |
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| I'd rather people just use yuri/yaoi as an umbrella term for all homosexual pairings if it would stop all the semantics bitching. People can use other tags to discern whether or not there's sexually explicit content. If there has to be an alternative, just use GL/BL. Easier to type and say, and harder to misinterpret. |
| Hmm, could use: "bian" (short for lesbian), "Onna x Onna" ("women x women"), or "Onna-doushi" ("women together") I'd be fine with this change (Onna-doushi is my favorite) But my biggest problem with having two terms is that I find they keep overlapping which can make searches and proper categorizing hard to do. For example, Girls Friends and Octave Girl Friends is shoujo-ai, Octave is yuri* They have enough similar qualities that it seems out of place to put them into two separate categories of romance. It's easier to just say "yuri" but I've seen people take this as "gay porn" so I've been going with "yuri/shoujo-ai"... * (and seinen but it's content runs closer to josei) |
Mogu-samaFeb 1, 2014 6:59 AM
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| Add in a rating section for the manga (R 13 or R 17) and I probably wouldn't mind. (Need time to get used to it). |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
ToG25thBaam said: Are the ratings on anime from MAL or a ratings board in Japan?Add in a rating section for the manga (R 13 or R 17) and I probably wouldn't mind. (Need time to get used to it). |
| Want to talk? Club! "Would you like an anti-psychotic?" *Bonus points if you leave a comment about the meaning of my signature.* |
| I like it how this discussion has actually taken approximately 50%-50% sides in the userbase contributing. So, what do we do in a situation when both sides are correct? One saying that you cannot simply change the meaning of some words/sentences/phrases as you wish (which I agree with), with the other one stating that it has to be understandable and used to (which I agree with as well, since the site itself focuses on entertainment). Perhaps this calls for having things optional. For each user to have an option of what will display for him/her in the database under that meaning. Of course, if these words would be hyperlinked, the link would stay the same, just the direct display could vary from here to there, as someone would prefer to see it. |
mugi said: You can't twist another language to your liking and say, well "umi" now means "earth", because you're english and that's how you want to use that japanese word. Actually, if 'umi' got used enough by English speakers when referring to 'earth', then it would mean that. It wouldn't mean that in Japanese, true. But it would still have that meaning. |
| There is no such thing as shit taste. Only idiots who think everyone should have the same taste as they do. |
Mogu-sama said: ToG25thBaam said: Are the ratings on anime from MAL or a ratings board in Japan?Add in a rating section for the manga (R 13 or R 17) and I probably wouldn't mind. (Need time to get used to it). I actually mean on MAL, and for the manga section. We have a rating system for the anime already, we need one for the manga too to be honest, because we don't have the "mature" or "adult" tag on MAL like on any other manga site. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
| This thread is really weird. Why do people want to be wrong? |
LoneWolf said: @Josh makes me sad to call myself Canadian. |
brrr said: Why do people want an English-language site to be controlled by a few speakers of another language on the other side of the planet telling them they're wrong? As others have pointed out, if we're going by the "whatever Japan/2ch says is Law" standard, why are we restricting "anime" to Japanese/East Asian animation in the first place?This thread is really weird. Why do people want to be wrong? |
mugi said: kuuderes_shadow said: mugi said: You can't twist another language to your liking and say, well "umi" now means "earth", because you're english and that's how you want to use that japanese word. Actually, if 'umi' got used enough by English speakers when referring to 'earth', then it would mean that. It wouldn't mean that in Japanese, true. But it would still have that meaning. Only if people who use it state that their "umi" has no relation to japanese and that it's a coincidence that it sounds the same like the japanese "umi". It would also require a dictionary entry. If the etymological origin of the word was the Japanese '海', then doing that would be lying, even with the meanings being completely different. And dictionary entries come about as a result of a word being formed, not the other way around. |
| There is no such thing as shit taste. Only idiots who think everyone should have the same taste as they do. |
| I find it weird that they changed the entire database to Japanese titles in the name of "consistency" against the will of the majority, but incorrect tags are apparently A-OK. |
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Narmy said: Those are different things. This consistency is already there in the pages(IIRC), it's just considered wrong since the definition is wrong. The deal with the romaji names is because people kept on re adding shows with different title languages and some other things.I find it weird that they changed the entire database to Japanese titles in the name of "consistency" against the will of the majority, but incorrect tags are apparently A-OK. |
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mugi said: And if Japan says you're using their language wrong then maybe there's something to it? Maybe? We are not using their language, we use English with word that originated from their language. Does it seem like we speak Japanese to you? English has a lot of words of German or French origin, so should we change the meanings of the words because we use their languages wrong? |
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| Why not just use a flat English genre names? "Homosexual ♀" "Homosexual ♂" Along with ratings as Rx - Hentai or PG - 13 to indicate how severe it is. Since the Japanese terms have been evolving for years. Remember what is used now in Japan isn't what was used 10 years ago. And 10 years before that was a different term. So we can easily expect in 10 years a new term or term evolution to happen again. Everyone would end up bickering about it again down the road otherwise. I'm all for changing the hentai genre to "18+ Restricted" and the rating to "Rx - 18 Restricted" too. |
mugi said: If you want to see nonsense, just look in a mirror. The side against the current MAL use of "shoujo-ai" is saying "this usage is wrong because Japan says so, and Japan's word is law." So the logical and non-nonsensical extension of that would be to follow the same standard for other terms borrowed from the Japanese, "anime" being among them. It's the -antis who are being inconsistent, saying "we should do as Japan says for this but not that." I'm not seeing much of a reason for that double standard other than "OH WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE (FICTIONAL) CHILDREN?!?!?!?"Because it's irrational.. Twisting the language to ones own liking is nonsensical especially when it refers to something people understand as pedophilia. If you want to use your own language then do it, use a word everyone understands correctly without misunderstanding, the other solution is moronic and with 5g of ignorance. But if there is a proper term for it, well established and generally used, then use it.. And if Japan says you're using their language wrong then maybe there's something to it? Maybe? This "why anime only japanimation" argument is nonsense as well. People basically say, "lol why not shounen-ai? Because Japan says so?? F that!" but then "lol Japan uses "anime" for all animation, let's do that because Japan says so!". Good one. |
| Ah so that's what it means. I hate pedophiles. Do we have a gore tag? |
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mugi said: This "why anime only japanimation" argument is nonsense as well. People basically say, "lol why not shounen-ai? Because Japan says so?? F that!" but then "lol Japan uses "anime" for all animation, let's do that because Japan says so!". Good one. Don't twist my words. I'm saying "lol why not shounen-ai? Because Japan says so?? okay, but then use "anime" for all animation, because Japan says so!" |
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| The Hell? We already using that term (shoujo ai), so let it be. 0r do you want to stop all this Western anime fans calling themselves "otaku"? (hint: they are not) 0h, and don't forget to properly rename "Neon Genesis Evangelion" to "Shin Seiki Evangelion". |
There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Oil and nuclear are civilisation saviours. Deal with it. |
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lpf said: If the Japanese-speaking squad could take a look at this before claiming that MAL use is incorrect, it would make this thread more intelligent and productive. Run this into Google Translate if you can't read runes. Thank you. Clearing up the direct translation for certain would be necessary in order to even start the discussion off... Otherwise this is just pointless disagreeing with each other. Facts before requests of any kind, changes included. Can anyone say for certain what Shoujo-Ai actually means? Without the use of Internet, please. From real-life usage. |
Serhiyko said: |
| There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Oil and nuclear are civilisation saviours. Deal with it. |
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| I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. |
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IntroverTurtle said: Problem, people refer to adult females as girls and adult males as boys.I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. |
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Mogu-sama said: I said usually and it could. There's men, women, male, female, sir, Ms, etc for adults. Boy and girl is used a lot more for younger people than older.IntroverTurtle said: Problem, people refer to adult females as girls and adult males as boys.I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. |
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IntroverTurtle said: THIS. Sums it all up. Discussion closed, everyone, go home.I just realized something. People want to change it because shoujo ai means little girl love in Japanese which would be pedophelia right? But for like BL which is used in Japan I believe? Stands for Boy's Love, boys in English are usually little boys, so in a way Boy's Love in English could mean pedophelia. I say we send a message to Japan getting them to stop. Thank you, sir, you're a genius and mah hero. +) |
| There is such thing as shit taste. Only idiots think that every "work of art" should have the same value. Oil and nuclear are civilisation saviours. Deal with it. |
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