Hachimitsu to Clover II Episode 12 Discussion

tehnominator said:
When Takemoto pulls out those honey and clover sandwiches, eats them and starts crying, I lost it-- I bawled my guts out. I was completely inconsolable over how something can be so bitter and so sweet at the same time.

Painfully beautiful end to a great series.

drew21 said:
Can someone please tell me what is up with Shuuji and Rika in those scenes when it was just the two of them? In this last episode when she surprise visits him in the empty room, her eyes water and they seem to kiss (they cut away) and then they hold hands and lean against each other. They had like those moments before in S1. This confuses me so much. Are they romantic or just such good friends they're that intimate? Or am I missing something here.

q_w_e_r_t_y said:

No one havean answer for these? I'm curious about it too.

yeslelno123 said:
Also, did Nomiya x Yamada happen? I feel like I missed an episode.

yukishiromei said:
Such good comments, you guys make me want to watch this right away

gissellebatista said:
Best josei series after Nodame Cantabile for me. Beautiful animation, heartfelt music and creative cinematography. The cast is so diverse, so dynamically human that it is hard not to like. It has some of the most believable and relatable characters I have ever seen. Crying, laughing, experienced all kind of emotions in only 36 episodes. Rarely have I seen an anime so viscerally portray life. One of the best romance shows I've seen.

Tyestor said:
Takemoto's bike ride in the first season reflects on something that I've always wanted to do and his "nomadic" lifestyle choice (building/repairing around the country) is very, very interesting to me.

Salxer said:
Just finished re-watching this, still bittersweet as hell <3
I'm surprised so many people say that Hagu and Shuu ended up together. I thought that Hagu didn't really end up with anyone; the whole point is that she chose art over love. Guess I just interpreted it differently..
That said, I still think there's a chance that Hagu and Morita might end up together in the future, after she completely heals, since they both love each other. That's what I'd like to think, at least.

idealparadox said:

Why everyone made such a fuss about the Sensei's love for Hagu!?
Is it because... he loves her in a ROMANTIC WAY!?
What the heck!!! Nooo. I can't see him loving her any other way than in a fatherly way. He's... just so old... and she still looks like a real kid. Err. This feels so wrong.

Saorin said:

I didn't quite get if Shuu-chan loves Hagu in a romantic or fatherly way. o.o I'll just make myself believe it's the latter.

tehnominator said:
When Takemoto pulls out those honey and clover sandwiches, eats them and starts crying, I lost it-- I bawled my guts out.

IchigoRadiance said:
I thoroughly enjoyed the ending. I was one of the Yuta x Hagu fans as I saw Yuta as being nicer than Shinobu. But Hagu rejected him at the beginning of season 2 ending of season 1, because she didn't love him the same way. But I accept the Shuuji x Hagu ending as well. I'm a little more than dissapointed that people keep projecting their values into their expectations. This show is a slice of life show. Life can throw all kinds of people and events at you. And not everything will follow what society says will happen, much less a society half-way across the globe. In japan, first cousins can get married, Shuuji and Hagu are second cousins. If you put things into perspective, it really isn't that farfetched. And we shouldn't give a f*** if Shuuji really is in love with her or not. All we the viewers should care about is if she is happy and unharmed (although we couldn't do anything about it regardless since she isn't real). How is Shuuji being in love with her, bad for Hagu? How would it be bad if she returned his love? Do people get evil as they grow older, or are we basing morality on youth in and of itself. Or is it a sexist double standard, since Rika, who is around the same age as Shuuji hasn't gotten any flack when Takumi who is just four years older than Hagu, fell in love with her, and later when she had slept with him? Why is it there was no age barrier for them, but suddenly it's a big problem if it's with Hagu and Shuuji? So I ask again, How is Shuuji being in love with Hagu, bad? Hagu herself described Shuuji as her rain. And for Hagu, that is probably the best compliment one can receive.

Shuuji professed his love for her to others. A big theme of this show is about unrequited love. Many don't ever confess their love, and others do, but take a while. Shuuji claimed he had fallen in love with her a long time ago, but didn't exactly say how long ago it really was. I don't think he'll confess to her, because he really does love her, he doesn't want there to be an awkwardness between them. If he confessed, would that be evil? I don't think so. I don't believe an action can be good or bad based on who is doing it. For a love confession to be evil, it would always need to be evil. If she reciprocated, I also don't think either would be in the wrong. Love conquers all. For them to love each other romantically and it be considered evil, love would always be evil. Yes, Hagu is a loli. She's been a loli since forever pretty much. If shuuji being in love with a loli is bad, then what about when Yuta and Shinobu grow older. She'll still be a loli, and they will look similar to Shuuji when he was that age. You're essentially delaying judgement, and at the same time you are actually condemning Hagu. For if what Shuuji is doing is evil, and what Shinobu and Yuta would have been doing when they got older was evil, then what Hagu is/would-be doing is also evil, for the simple fact that it takes two to tango.

Anyway, rant over. Wherever her relationship with Shuuji goes, I would support it. Love conquers all, even prejudices. I myself would love to live in a world, where you aren't dictated who you must love and who you are forbidden to love.

crimsoncryst said:
It's great to see Nomiya and Yamada together. I love this pair.

q_w_e_r_t_y said:

No one havean answer for these? I'm curious about it too.

crowmium said:
What a series. It's hard to handle a well told story of unrequited love like this one. I really enjoyed the second season more than the first because of its pacing and the way it gave closure.

Some people are saying that it was sad that everyone was leaving, but I'd like to point out that actually more people are together than separated. Ostensibly, based on what we know about the characters there are 6 people of the 8 significant characters that are still together:

Mayama x Rika
Yamada x Nomiya
Shuuji x Hagu

Only Morita and Yuuta really lost at the end of the day. Which I found to be extremely well done and interesting. The way that Morita and Yuuta both handled the rejection was really well written and believable for their characters. In a way, even though Morita and Yuuta didn't find romantic love, they found other sorts of love. Morita was able to connect with his brother and I think Kaoru came to terms with their differences. Yuuta was able to find a sort of companionate, familial love with the people he met rebuilding temples.

On the topic of Mayama x Rika, I'm glad they are together. Rika needs a strong person like Mayama to keep her from consuming herself with either work or grief. I was glad she finally admitted to herself that she cared for him and stopped pushing Mayama away. Even better was Mayama got to be with the person he cared for the most. The fact that he loved her in spite of all of her flaws stuck out in my mind. Not everyone can feel that level of consummate love for such a broken individual. Lots of people cannot see past the flaws, no matter how shallow that may seem.

Yamada x Nomiya is somewhat controversial, but I think Nomiya was painted as the"bad guy" because we were mainly getting Mayama's perspective in which he saw himself as the knight protecting the chastity of a fair maiden. However, I think that the later explanation that Nomiya is really just Mayama in "final form" speaks well of Nomiya's true character. He actually is a strong, motivated person who is willing to sacrifice of himself (many times) for someone he loves, even if that love isn't reciprocated. I think ultimately he proves himself worthy of the pure-hearted maiden of the series.

And then we get to the dangerous topic of Shuuji x Hagu, where we have to consider issues such as the loli, incest, and age. Personally, looking at this series from the perspective of it's intended audience (Josei), I think Hagu was a loli just for the sake of being cute. I don't think that the series ever attempted to sexualize her in any way, shape, or form. Beyond that, Hagu was 20 or 21 when the series ended, so she is an adult (and well over any age of consent) and could do as she pleased.

Hagu and Shuuji were second cousins, which is apparently not that big of a deal in Japan, even though people in the U.S. would find that quite strange. I don't particularly care to pass judgment on the "incest" part of their relationship, because it's such a moral gray area. If Hagu loved Shuuji romantically (as we definitely know Shuuji did), then I can't really fault them. Honestly, their lives are so difficult that I think it would be the literal death of both of them if they were separated. I don't think either of them could continue to function. Beyond that, I think Hagu probably hasn't ever really considered "love" as an option. Her genius (in some ways it seems she has Savant syndrome) is so overwhelmed by creating art that she doesn't even register love as a real possibility (reference: her reaction to Morita's advances).

I ultimately felt pity when I thought about Shuuji's plight. He may very well live out his days in the same home as the person he loves in the most consummate possible way, but he will never see that love fully reciprocated. Sure Hagu cares for him, but it's very unlikely she has the same passion and desire for intimacy as he does. That's an extremely difficult place for Shuuji to be. I think I would probably lose my mind or do something terrible if I had to live my life that way. In a lot of ways you could see Shuuji as imprisoned. A willing captive, yes, but no more free than any other prisoner. Thankfully for Hagu, Shuuji seems to be incredibly selfless and willing to put himself in that prison for her sake--unlike myself.

Holy hell, if you actually read all that, thank you.

tl;dr - I liked the series. It was very emotionally exhausting. 8/10.