Who is the strongest servant in Fate-verse?
Thalos said: Ragna92 said: ssjokg said: isnt it a bit early for that?Not even 24 hours passed since the thread was made.She wont reach Gilgamesh anytime soon but Heracles is close enough. Ragna92 said: But I don't see how she can take out Iskander, unless Excalibur can take out his whole army. I think a blast from something like Excalibur could destroy RMs but Ionian Hetairoi is Ranked EX and Excalibur A++ but I dont know if this matters. Ionioi Hetairoi itself can be destroyed three ways. A) Something that breaks down, dispels, or degrades Reality Marbles (I am sure, for example, someone like Medea has enough magical know-how to accomplish this.) B) Taking out enough troops. Ionioi Hetairoi is an exception to Reality Marbles in this regard. Iskander is not a Caster and he lacks the mana to supply a Reality Marble on his own. It sustains itself through the combined effort of his troops. If enough of them die he wont be able to keep it up. The number required is probably about half the army or so. C) Taking out Iskander himself (probably) since the troops would likely fall with him. However, assuming they do not, then this method would fail, since Iskander is not the main supplier of the Reality Marble. As excessive as it is, Enuma Elish can destroy it using any method above. Saber can only destroy it through the last two methods and whether she pulls it off or not is not guaranteed. Normal Reality Marbles that are supplied directly through the one casting it can only be destroyed by killing said caster or using the first method. Although killing a single person will, in most cases, be easier than killing many. She could use Avalon and wait for the RM to go down jk, but then she wouldnt be stronger than Iskander but the most coward Heroic Spirit ever.But she wouldnt because of her personality. B,C: I think she would fail either way.The army would reach her before she gets ready for one blast and like I said they are Servants ,not just soldiers,in the numbers of a few thousands. C:whether the RM falls with him or not, if she manages to takes him out ,even with his entire army there then I can consider her as the strongest one between them but I doubt she could do it @Honako Well not many have finished FHA since not all of us know japanese so lets not include him.But in the parts that were translated he mentions that he isnt that strong and I dont plan to use the wiki for him,since I want to read in the vn |
ssjokgApr 30, 2012 3:08 PM
| Wait why do people think Medea is so powerful? Nasu himself even said that if she could use the Golden Fleece, that would only bring her up to average (amongst the F/SN Servants), and without it she's the weakest. With four of the seven classes having some resistance to magic, and the fact that her stronger spells still take more than a second to cast, she's nowhere near as strong as Saber/Gilgamesh/either Berserker/Alexander. Anyway, the only way non-Avalon Saber can beat Ionoi Hetairoi if she kills Alexander first. Killing enough soldiers WOULD dispel Ionoi Hetairoi, but she has to stay alive long enough to do this. WITH Avalon, however, she could probably outlast it, so long as she doesn't take a fatal blow (Avalon's healing powers won't save her if she's killed instantly). Unlike Excalibur, though Since Ionoi Hetairoi was brought up, Hercules might be able to defeat it. If none of the soldiers have A rank attacks, then the only thing that can kill him is Alexander's chariot, which likely won't kill him 12 times. |
Honako said: Why is Avenger not on this list? Because he's dead weak...lol Seriously, since Avenger is more of a Irregularity I assume OP forgot about him. |
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kaimax said: Honako said: Why is Avenger not on this list? Because he's dead weak...lol Seriously, since Avenger is more of a Irregularity I assume OP forgot about him. I'll add him if people want him on it. I haven't played FHA, so I don't even know what he counts as. |
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| hercules prob 2nd strongest servant (not counting alter servants) excalibur wont take out IH cuz its a beam of light not carpet bombing pretty unlikely saber will have enough prana to use avalon continuously avenger is only good at killing humans against servants he is pretty shit angra mainyu born from the grail would be pretty strong though that wont be a servant anymore |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: hercules prob 2nd strongest servant (not counting alter servants) excalibur wont take out IH cuz its a beam of light not carpet bombing pretty unlikely saber will have enough prana to use avalon continuously avenger is only good at killing humans against servants he is pretty shit angra mainyu born from the grail would be pretty strong though that wont be a servant anymore How much prana does Avalon require, exactly? |
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| Gilgamesh because he IS the rule. |
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ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: hercules prob 2nd strongest servant (not counting alter servants) excalibur wont take out IH cuz its a beam of light not carpet bombing pretty unlikely saber will have enough prana to use avalon continuously avenger is only good at killing humans against servants he is pretty shit angra mainyu born from the grail would be pretty strong though that wont be a servant anymore How much prana does Avalon require, exactly? it was continuously drawing prana from saber when it was just healing shirou's wounds plus they barely managed to pull it off in fate and that was with one attack versus IH is waves and waves of soldiers if she tries to use excalibur, it will take time and during that period of time she is vulnerable she cant attack from within avalon either since she is essentially separate from this universe |
BloodRequiemApr 30, 2012 3:57 PM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| Well I guess I should ask, Saber vs Berserker(heracles) since they are pretty close in this poll? So what do you guys think? |
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Ragna92 said: Well I guess I should ask, Saber vs Berserker(heracles) since they are pretty close in this poll? So what do you guys think? hercules cuz no shirou = no plothax aka caliburn |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| I still dont get how caliburn took so many lives in one strike.So without plot armor I say Heraclues.She wont have time to charge Excalibur and Avalon is the same like the the rest. |
| How many lives did Caliburn even take out again? Berserker had 5 lives left but from what I remember Caliburn was able to kill him an extra time or something. |
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| With Rin as a Master, Saber. With Kiritsugu or Shirou, Berserker. Considering she's almost as powerful as him in statistics and he can't fight tactically while she can, it makes sense. Rin Saber does have A rank Strength and Excalibur, so it's just a matter if she can deal with God Hand's resistance to repeat kills. If Hercules wasn't Berserker, though, then it's an entirely different battle. And Caliburn was strong enough to him seven times, though he only had five left at the time. |
TheRealBoyd said: With Rin as a Master, Saber. With Kiritsugu or Shirou, Berserker. Considering she's almost as powerful as him in statistics and he can't fight tactically while she can, it makes sense. Rin Saber does have A rank Strength and Excalibur, so it's just a matter if she can deal with God Hand's resistance to repeat kills. If Hercules wasn't Berserker, though, then it's an entirely different battle. And Caliburn was strong enough to him seven times, though he only had five left at the time. Thank god for Archer killing him several time then. So the outcome of Rin Saber vs Berserker Heracles is in Nasu's head.Perfect....... |
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| Well, UBW actually flat out states that she could defeat Berserker. But then again, the plot hates Berserker as much as it loves Saber, so I'm not sure if she could do it 12 times. I guess this is one of those more questionable "do we take Nasu's word for it?" issues. |
TheRealBoyd said: Well, UBW actually flat out states that she could defeat Berserker. But then again, the plot hates Berserker as much as it loves Saber, so I'm not sure if she could do it 12 times. I guess this is one of those more questionable "do we take Nasu's word for it?" issues. very unlikely that excalibur will take all 12 lives |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| Well, with A rank Strength, she doesn't need to rely only on Excaliblast, since her normal slashes are strong enough. But yeah, Nasu saying so aside, it's questionable that she can kill him 12 times. |
| I dont remember her being able to slash him in the VN but even if she could it's not like he is that slow as to not be able to counterattack and even if she manages to hurt him doesnt mean that it will be a fatal hit to claim a life. |
ssjokg said: I dont remember her being able to slash him in the VN but even if she could it's not like he is that slow as to not be able to counterattack and even if she manages to hurt him doesnt mean that it will be a fatal hit to claim a life. because that was shirou saber with invisible air binding excalibur lowering it to rank c |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| Her Strength was only B rank in the Fate route. When she gets Rin as a Master in UBW the narrator just says something to the effect of "she could even defeat Berserker easily like this," but there's no evidence beyond that. That's why it's questionable. |
TheRealBoyd said: Her Strength was only B rank in the Fate route. When she gets Rin as a Master in UBW the narrator just says something to the effect of "she could even defeat Berserker easily like this," but there's no evidence beyond that. That's why it's questionable. I wish we could've seen Rin's Saber do much more. All we got to see is her fight with Assasain. |
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Ragna92 said: TheRealBoyd said: Her Strength was only B rank in the Fate route. When she gets Rin as a Master in UBW the narrator just says something to the effect of "she could even defeat Berserker easily like this," but there's no evidence beyond that. That's why it's questionable. I wish we could've seen Rin's Saber do much more. All we got to see is her fight with Assasain. which was pretty pathetic since she won with plothax |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
| Saying Rin/Saber is strong is kinda pointless, Almost all servants would be amazing with Rin. Saber being strong with Rin is not very telling for how good Saber really is, seeing as how ANYONE with Rin is a monster. |
Ragna92 said: How many lives did Caliburn even take out again? Berserker had 5 lives left but from what I remember Caliburn was able to kill him an extra time or something. It took out seven lives. Not sure how though... Excalibur should be stronger. Only thing that's ever mentioned is that Saber likes it more or something, which shouldn't make such a huge difference. |
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ataraxial said: Ragna92 said: How many lives did Caliburn even take out again? Berserker had 5 lives left but from what I remember Caliburn was able to kill him an extra time or something. It took out seven lives. Not sure how though... Excalibur should be stronger. Only thing that's ever mentioned is that Saber likes it more or something, which shouldn't make such a huge difference. if mirror moon ppl were not bsing caliburn had that holy fire thing which continuously burnt away berserker's lives excalibur is just a beam and thats it therefore prob cant take away all 12 lives its all about compatibility so |
BloodRequiemApr 30, 2012 5:43 PM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: ataraxial said: Ragna92 said: How many lives did Caliburn even take out again? Berserker had 5 lives left but from what I remember Caliburn was able to kill him an extra time or something. It took out seven lives. Not sure how though... Excalibur should be stronger. Only thing that's ever mentioned is that Saber likes it more or something, which shouldn't make such a huge difference. if mirror moon ppl were not bsing caliburn had that holy fire thing which continuously burnt away berserker's lives excalibur is just a beam and thats it therefore prob cant take away all 12 lives its all about compatibility so Sure, compatibility, but that shouldn't make the difference between not able to scratch Berserker at all and breaking through his axe-sword + taking seven lives. Excalibur is explicitly stated to be a stronger sword than Caliburn even without the beam attack and considering that Caliburn was traced. What gives (other than obvious plothax)? Never heard of this holy fire thing. What is it? |
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ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: ataraxial said: Ragna92 said: How many lives did Caliburn even take out again? Berserker had 5 lives left but from what I remember Caliburn was able to kill him an extra time or something. It took out seven lives. Not sure how though... Excalibur should be stronger. Only thing that's ever mentioned is that Saber likes it more or something, which shouldn't make such a huge difference. if mirror moon ppl were not bsing caliburn had that holy fire thing which continuously burnt away berserker's lives excalibur is just a beam and thats it therefore prob cant take away all 12 lives its all about compatibility so Sure, compatibility, but that shouldn't make the difference between not able to scratch Berserker at all and breaking through his axe-sword + taking seven lives. Excalibur is explicitly stated to be a stronger sword than Caliburn even without the beam attack and considering that Caliburn was traced. What gives (other than obvious plothax)? Never heard of this holy fire thing. What is it? excalibur was bounded by invisible air which made it into a rank c thats why it didnt scratch berserker caliburn is totally a deus ex machina anyways takeuchi prob begs nasu all the time to make his waifu haxed holy fire thing no idea heard it some years ago on mirror moon although imo its prob more because it went through and activated inside of godhand again compatibility issues excalibur would be better against stuff with 1 life but caliburn would be better against stuff with multiple lives like how koujirou would be screwed against ranged attacks but haxed in melee btw found the nasu interview about saber vs archer assuming that he wasnt bsing The class of the representatives of close-range and long-range combat. Saber, who would take her sword in any condition whatsoever and Archer who would fight using a strategy of victory. The highlight won't just be the different battle styles, but the difference between their personalities. However, even with UBW, it's questionable whether he could hold Saber back. One definite hit from sniping and one absolute blast of death from her Holy Sword. It might really depend on the wit of their Masters not their own in determining who has the upper hand. |
BloodRequiemApr 30, 2012 6:51 PM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
Honako said: Saying Rin/Saber is strong is kinda pointless, Almost all servants would be amazing with Rin. Saber being strong with Rin is not very telling for how good Saber really is, seeing as how ANYONE with Rin is a monster. The fact of the matter is that Rin-Saber did happen. So if we go by everything in a character's arsenal, counting Rin-Saber is an accessible option in Saber's feats. Saber takes Heracles out with mid difficulty. If it's any master other than Rin, Heracles takes this in his tennis outfit. |
Kayaba-Apr 30, 2012 6:51 PM
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-Shuda- said: Honako said: Saying Rin/Saber is strong is kinda pointless, Almost all servants would be amazing with Rin. Saber being strong with Rin is not very telling for how good Saber really is, seeing as how ANYONE with Rin is a monster. The fact of the matter is that Rin-Saber did[/bold] happen. So if we go by everything in a character's arsenal, counting Rin-Saber is an accessible option in Saber's feats. Saber takes Heracles out with mid difficulty. only if excalibur can take him out before godhand develops resistance and keep in mind berserkers got better stats cept for luck and hes got battle continuation |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: only if excalibur can take him out before godhand develops resistance and keep in mind berserkers got better stats cept for luck and hes got battle continuation With A rank strength, Excalibur is not the only option for taking out his lives. Also, Berserker fights blinded with rage and has a somewhat predictable fighting approach. He demolishes everyone inferior to him with pure force without fail but when someone with comparable stats gets into the situation, it's not going to be so simple. Saber can pull off a victory with intellect and a bit of luck, especially with knowledge of his speed/strength first hand. It's not going to be easy but Nasu's line about Saber and Bazaka wasn't said for no reason. |
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-Shuda- said: BloodRequiem said: only if excalibur can take him out before godhand develops resistance and keep in mind berserkers got better stats cept for luck and hes got battle continuation With A rank strength, Excalibur is not the only option for taking out his lives. Also, Berserker fights blinded with rage and has a somewhat predictable fighting approach. He demolishes everyone inferior to him with pure force without fail but when someone with comparable stats gets into the situation, it's not going to be so simple. Saber can pull off a victory with intellect and a bit of luck, especially with knowledge of his speed/strength first hand. It's not going to be easy but Nasu's line about Saber and Bazaka wasn't said for no reason. she only has excalibur its not like she has shirou tracing stuff for her cuz this is a servant battle i lost trust in nasu's statements in UBW after archer survives being drained from tanking gae bolg, getting stabbed by shirou, getting GOBed, have enough prana to trace rho aias to help shirou, UBW a path for rin, and survive enough time to throw a knife at Gil and talk to rin all while not having a master to supply him with prana... nasu was probably smoking something (although if he went into town and ate a couple of people...) saber alter, true assassin, and the shadow all ganged up on hercules while he was protecting illya and he still managed to hold them off to some degree |
BloodRequiemApr 30, 2012 6:56 PM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: i lost trust in nasu's statements in UBW after archer survives being drained from tanking gae bolg, getting stabbed by shirou, getting GOBed, have enough prana to trace rho aias to help shirou, UBW a path for rin, and survive enough time to throw a knife at Gil and talk to rin all while not having a master to supply him with prana... nasu was probably smoking something (although if he went into town and ate a couple of people...) Haven't finished playing UBW route, so movie-only, but I always thought that bit was because of Emiya's nature as a Servant. Something to do with how he helps to avert world crises and stuff - rather than surviving everything, he shows up again because he's needed. Even so, Nasu was very likely smoking something since that's still major deux ex machina application. BloodRequiem said: excalibur was bounded by invisible air which made it into a rank c thats why it didnt scratch berserker caliburn is totally a deus ex machina anyways takeuchi prob begs nasu all the time to make his waifu haxed holy fire thing no idea heard it some years ago on mirror moon although imo its prob more because it went through and activated inside of godhand Forgot about InvisiAir. Given that explanation though, I imagine Excalibur could've done the same thing as Caliburn given that Saber had enough prana to use it, i.e. slice through God Hand and while inside, unleash attack of light and hax. |
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Honako said: Have you lost your mind? the question is NOT what master/servant combo that actually happened is the best, the question IS what servant is the best, Saber randomly getting a crazy epic master to give her a super stats boost is not a legitimate argument for her overall power as a servant. You seem new to the forums, word of advice, don't start your posts like that. Learn to appreciate others opinions and then express your own with logic and respect. Any ways, what you said is any servant is strong with Rin, which is true. However, Rin-Saber is still Saber and them pairing up increases her stats exponentially. There was no rule anywhere that said we are going by base stats so I assumed we can go by the peak of each character that has been shown in canon material. I stated that she can defeat berserker with Rin as her master but without it, the odds are against her. I'm not the first person to bring up a comparison of Saber with Rin, Kiritsugu or Shirou as her master in this discussion so my assumption was natural. |
Kayaba-May 1, 2012 12:18 AM
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sixplusone said: Strange enough I should have picked either saber/gilgamesh but then I ended up choosing berseker. Guess I really like his style lol. Pure strength, no strategy required and just everything comes straight out of his own abilities. His character stats is pretty much around the same level as gilgamesh and saber. Probably only lacking a little bit when it comes to his noble phantasm against both mentioned above, and would have got taken out by gilgamesh if he's serious enough. Not quite sure about the magic ability part in the character stats though (ranked C), but he's definitely one of the strongest in fate zero series. Otherwise I'd still have picked saber. Her ultimate noble phantasm is avalon which nullifies any incoming attacks as shown in FSN. Pretty OP offense already with excalibur, and then you have an OP defense to work with. GG for every other servant when they are combined. Shiro can take out archer in UBW lol. He really needs to be more serious, but I'm pretty sure he was serious enough given the fact he was about to die there, and then he still lost nonetheless. whos the strongest servant not who has the best style...if it were best style it'd prob go to GARcher (EMIYA) hercules could take lacelot out easily so that wasnt a very logical choice... in fact archer (EMIYA) would be a more logical choice than lancelot though still not the best saber cannot attack while she is using avalon in UBW archer went easy on shirou shirou cant beat any servants cept for prob Gil and thats with a combined effort of PIS and CIS plothax |
BloodRequiemMay 1, 2012 1:01 AM
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
sixplusone said: Strange enough I should have picked either saber/gilgamesh but then I ended up choosing berseker. Guess I really like his style lol. Pure strength, no strategy required and just everything comes straight out of his own abilities. His character stats is pretty much around the same level as gilgamesh and saber. Probably only lacking a little bit when it comes to his noble phantasm against both mentioned above, and would have got taken out by gilgamesh if he's serious enough. Not quite sure about the magic ability part in the character stats though (ranked C), but he's definitely one of the strongest in fate zero series. Otherwise I'd still have picked saber. Her ultimate noble phantasm is avalon which nullifies any incoming attacks as shown in FSN. Pretty OP offense already with excalibur, and then you have an OP defense to work with. GG for every other servant when they are combined. Shiro can take out archer in UBW lol. He really needs to be more serious, but I'm pretty sure he was serious enough given the fact he was about to die there, and then he still lost nonetheless. I assume you only watched the UBW movie if you think that Shirou was stronger than Archer at that scene.or that he won because of skill... |
ssjokgMay 1, 2012 2:48 AM
sixplusone said: Strange enough I should have picked either saber/gilgamesh but then I ended up choosing berseker. Guess I really like his style lol. Pure strength, no strategy required and just everything comes straight out of his own abilities. His character stats is pretty much around the same level as gilgamesh and saber. Probably only lacking a little bit when it comes to his noble phantasm against both mentioned above, and would have got taken out by gilgamesh if he's serious enough. Not quite sure about the magic ability part in the character stats though (ranked C), but he's definitely one of the strongest in fate zero series. Otherwise I'd still have picked saber. Her ultimate noble phantasm is avalon which nullifies any incoming attacks as shown in FSN. Pretty OP offense already with excalibur, and then you have an OP defense to work with. GG for every other servant when they are combined. Shiro can take out archer in UBW lol. He really needs to be more serious, but I'm pretty sure he was serious enough given the fact he was about to die there, and then he still lost nonetheless. Excalibur has weak points. It's highly susceptible to friendly fire and collateral damage because of how it works and it requires charging and takes lots of mana to use even just once. Avalon is not so OP and honestly one of the worst EX rank Noble Phantasms. You can't be hit in it but you can't hit the enemy either, it just turns the fight into a quick draw competition and the mana it takes to use might cost you another attack with Excalibur. Something like say Ea which can destroy cities without problem and fire multiple times or Vasavi Shakti which is anti-god is just better not to mention the armor of Gilgamesh can endure attacks from various Noble Phantasms without costing loads of mana or hindering your actions. Archer is much stronger than Shirou and you probably haven't seen the VN if you don't think so. Archer was at about 10% power during their fight and he let Shirou stab him because he decided that in the end Shirou's ideal was beautiful even if it may be wrong. Even Shirou's win against Gilgamesh was plot armor and its been said that in 100 battles Gilgamesh would win 99, this is basically the one instance where every condition for Shirou's survival was met and otherwise he would have lost. |
-Shuda- said: Honako said: Have you lost your mind? the question is NOT what master/servant combo that actually happened is the best, the question IS what servant is the best, Saber randomly getting a crazy epic master to give her a super stats boost is not a legitimate argument for her overall power as a servant. You seem new to the forums, word of advice, don't start your posts like that. Learn to appreciate others opinions and then express your own with logic and respect. Any ways, what you said is any servant is strong with Rin, which is true. However, Rin-Saber is still Saber and them pairing up increases her stats exponentially. There was no rule anywhere that said we are going by base stats so I assumed we can go by the peak of each character that has been shown in canon material. I stated that she can defeat berserker with Rin as her master but without it, the odds are against her. I'm not the first person to bring up a comparison of Saber with Rin, Kiritsugu or Shirou as her master in this discussion so my assumption was natural. This. And it's not like we can actually know what other Servants' stats would be if they were with Rin... say if Gilgamesh had Rin instead of Tokiomi as his master, who's to say that his stats would even change? Also, someone reply to my post above. I'm feeling left out. |
ataraxialMay 1, 2012 7:20 AM
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ataraxial said: -Shuda- said: Honako said: Have you lost your mind? the question is NOT what master/servant combo that actually happened is the best, the question IS what servant is the best, Saber randomly getting a crazy epic master to give her a super stats boost is not a legitimate argument for her overall power as a servant. You seem new to the forums, word of advice, don't start your posts like that. Learn to appreciate others opinions and then express your own with logic and respect. Any ways, what you said is any servant is strong with Rin, which is true. However, Rin-Saber is still Saber and them pairing up increases her stats exponentially. There was no rule anywhere that said we are going by base stats so I assumed we can go by the peak of each character that has been shown in canon material. I stated that she can defeat berserker with Rin as her master but without it, the odds are against her. I'm not the first person to bring up a comparison of Saber with Rin, Kiritsugu or Shirou as her master in this discussion so my assumption was natural. This. And it's not like we can actually know what other Servants' stats would be if they were with Rin... say if Gilgamesh had Rin instead of Tokiomi as his master, who's to say that his stats would even change? Also, someone reply to my post above. I'm feeling left out. Gil with rin would prob be higher since rin is a better magus than tokiomi |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
BloodRequiem said: Gil with rin would prob be higher since rin is a better magus than tokiomi Probably, but it's tough to know for sure. Regardless, Rin Saber vs. Tokiomi Gil is a fair comparison since they are magi of similar level. Shirou is useless, and Kiritsugu Saber should be compared with Kirei Gil since Kiritsugu specialized as a magus killer and not as a magus. |
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ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: Gil with rin would prob be higher since rin is a better magus than tokiomi Probably, but it's tough to know for sure. Regardless, Rin Saber vs. Tokiomi Gil is a fair comparison since they are magi of similar level. Shirou is useless, and Kiritsugu Saber should be compared with Kirei Gil since Kiritsugu specialized as a magus killer and not as a magus. the probably are similar even with Rin having more potential but it's still unfair for Saber. I dont mind putting the level of the masters in the comparison but we more or less change the discussion to the best team of Master Servant instead of just Servant. Cu Chulainn vs Diarmuid...what do you think? |
ssjokg said: ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: Gil with rin would prob be higher since rin is a better magus than tokiomi Probably, but it's tough to know for sure. Regardless, Rin Saber vs. Tokiomi Gil is a fair comparison since they are magi of similar level. Shirou is useless, and Kiritsugu Saber should be compared with Kirei Gil since Kiritsugu specialized as a magus killer and not as a magus. the probably are similar even with Rin having more potential but it's still unfair for Saber. I dont mind putting the level of the masters in the comparison but we more or less change the discussion to the best team of Master Servant instead of just Servant. Cu Chulainn vs Diarmuid...what do you think? Tie in fuyuki Ireland Cu Chulainn master + servant combo= shirou and saber unstoppable with that level of plothax...tracing one deus ex machina after another |
| As a child, I was told that society is a melting pot of talents; knowledge and experience combined to form important alloys that will contribute to mankind. When I got to highschool, however, I thought that it's more like a river in which the water represents our peers while we ourselves are the stones in the river. Constant erosion by mindless majority sheeping has made us lose our unique edge. After I hit the age of 18, I realized that I've been wrong all along. Society is no melting pot. Society is no river. Society is a person, a very skilled rapist, and he has fucked us all. |
ssjokg said: ataraxial said: BloodRequiem said: Gil with rin would prob be higher since rin is a better magus than tokiomi Probably, but it's tough to know for sure. Regardless, Rin Saber vs. Tokiomi Gil is a fair comparison since they are magi of similar level. Shirou is useless, and Kiritsugu Saber should be compared with Kirei Gil since Kiritsugu specialized as a magus killer and not as a magus. the probably are similar even with Rin having more potential but it's still unfair for Saber. I dont mind putting the level of the masters in the comparison but we more or less change the discussion to the best team of Master Servant instead of just Servant. Cu Chulainn vs Diarmuid...what do you think? Would be awesome to see. I think Diarmuid would have an advantage (in Fuyuki) due to Gae Dearg being able to nullify both Gae Bolg attacks as long as he's agile enough to pull it off. Which he is. |
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BloodRequiem said: Tie in fuyuki Ireland Cu Chulainn master + servant combo= shirou and saber unstoppable with that level of plothax...tracing one deus ex machina after another I think that Cu Chulainn has more chances.He went through the same shit in UBW but still managed to give Kotomine a lesson and use his runes to burn the castle.And with the level of luck Diarmuid has(being a Lancer is hard) I doubt he would be able to dodge Gae Bolg. @ataraxial Being agile doesnt matter in dodging the spear of impaling death(or something) Saber is agile too but it was due to her luck and Instinct that she barely dodged. |
ssjokgMay 1, 2012 9:21 AM
ssjokg said: BloodRequiem said: Tie in fuyuki Ireland Cu Chulainn master + servant combo= shirou and saber unstoppable with that level of plothax...tracing one deus ex machina after another I think that Cu Chulainn has more chances.He went through the same shit in UBW but still managed to give Kotomine a lesson and use his runes to burn the castle.And with the level of luck Diarmuid has(being a Lancer is hard) I doubt he would be able to dodge Gae Bolg. Not dodge, but touch with Gae Dearg to cancel out the effect. I agree it would be hard, but Cu Chulainn still has to get close in order to use Gae Bolg at all, so Diarmuid's A+ agility could pull it off. Runes would be ineffective against Diarmuid due to high Magic Resistance + Gae Dearg. As for the suicide thing, that's more due to plot than ability, in my opinion. Granted, Cu Chulainn is generally more GAR than Diarmuid, but Diarmuid can definitely match him and probably beat him in a battle. |
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| the rune thing was that he had the time to use them not that they would work against Diarmuid. He doesnt need to be close with his second technique it doesnt have the same effext bad it is strong And about stopping it with Gae Dearg.Isnt the only way for it to work just before Cu Chulainn thrusts?Isnt that the moment when the magic effect takes place?I see it the same way I see the fight with Caster.The monster was summoned with magic but Diarmuid had to pierce the book. Thats just speculation but I see the same thing in both cases. |
ssjokgMay 1, 2012 9:26 AM
ssjokg said: the rune thing was that he had the time to use them not that they would work against Diarmuid. He doesnt need to be close with his second technique And about stopping it with Gae Dearg.Isnt the only way for it to work just before Cu Chulainn thrusts?Isnt that the moment when the magic effect takes place?I see it the same way I see the fight with Caster.The monster was summoned with magic but Diarmuid had to pierce the book. Thats just speculation but I see the same thing in both cases. Since Gae Dearg cancels mana, I imagine he could just swing it at the anti-army Gae Bolg in defense. As for anti-unit Gae Bolg, yes, there would not be too much time in which he could cancel the attack, but Cu Chulainn has to fully commit to it in order for it to activate, which gives enough of an opening. Kind of like Saber's charge in Diarmuid vs. Saber at the port. Eye of the Mind (True) and A+ agility would allow Diarmuid to pull it off. |
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