| spoilers for episode 7 with there being a whole conversation relating to replacing limbs with mechanical parts, it puts that idea in the realm of possibilities. you don't think too hardly about it, but you now know it's a thing that can happen on the back of your mind. so when in the fake-out scene one of our protagonist's arm gets chopped off, you are far more likely to fall for it. I genuinely thought she lost an arm and a part of her foot. I expected her to be saved by someone, but I bought the arm being chopped off. and the show telling me something that could have been foreshadowing beforehand was what made it so believable. specially because the show has already established doing real foreshadowing at serval places. |
APolygons2May 14, 2023 8:03 AM
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| interesting thoughts, my man. thanks for sharing. |
Pillsbury_Uchiha said: yesn'twell written is subjective it's just as subjective as animation and music. it's subjective, but the same way anyone can tell mob psycho has better animation than mars of destruction, anyone also can tell that berserk is more well written than inu san's dog. art is always partly subjective no matter what, but it's not purely subjective. |
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Pillsbury_Uchiha said: well written is subjective Quality is not subjective. Enjoyment is. |
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Piromysl said: I mean, he's not fully wrong.Pillsbury_Uchiha said: well written is subjective Quality is not subjective. Enjoyment is. it's like food. you can make a pretty good argument for what is good/bad food. but at the end of the day it is still partly subjective. |
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Apolygon2 said: I mean, he's not fully wrong. it's like food. you can make a pretty good argument for what is good/bad food. but at the end of the day it is still partly subjective. One of the recent episodes of Dr Stone explained, that never eating high quality food lowers your standards, so you would enjoy the food that is objectively bad. This theme is actually quite common in anime and we've even seen this in those few cooking Isekai we had recently. So, I wouldn't really say that quality = enjoyment. Quality is determined by many factors and there is actual science behind it, that you can break down, while enjoyment is actually an end result of quality. That's why enjoyment is subjective. |
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Piromysl said: Apolygon2 said: I mean, he's not fully wrong. it's like food. you can make a pretty good argument for what is good/bad food. but at the end of the day it is still partly subjective. One of the recent episodes of Dr Stone explained, that never eating high quality food lowers your standards, so you would enjoy the food that is objectively bad. This theme is actually quite common in anime and we've even seen this in those few cooking Isekai we had recently. So, I wouldn't really say that quality = enjoyment. Quality is determined by many factors and there is actual science behind it, that you can break down, while enjoyment is actually an end result of quality. That's why enjoyment is subjective. I didn't say enjoyment and quality where the same. I said quality is still partly subjective, which is true. good food on average would please more people. but even if you know what you're talking about, you will have different opinions on how EXACTLY good the food is. in that same way. 12 different critics can all look at an anime critically, all have well thought out takes, and still have different opinions on how good or bad it is. that's why I said it's partly subjective. |
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MineFord_gurme said: pretty much, unless we count vinland, this doesn't even really have competition .Thanks for sharing your thoughts all. This show is freaking excellent, I'm more and more convinced of this every time. Literally the best show of this season & one of the best titles in this year so far unless we go by pilot alone.... in which case I would vote oshi no ko, but like... why would we do that? |
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gamibo said: It's not because of the production.When anime has rare high quality animation,art, background music then people start thinkin deeply about things that are not even meant by creator.People even made Summertime Render anime grand than it actually was, especially that ending shounen fights and Godmode of Ushio, coincidentally both Disney Exclusives😬 it's because this show has been throwing foreshadowing left and right, while oozing with detail at it's every corner. and since I know for a fact that those are there on purpose. I'm willing to believe this wasn't an accident either. it's just me giving it the benefit of the doubt cause it earned my trust beforehand. |
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Apolygon2 said: spoilers for episode 7 with there being a whole conversation relating to replacing limbs with mechanical parts, it puts that idea in the realm of possibilities. you don't think too hardly about it, but you now know it's a thing that can happen on the back of your mind. so when in the fake-out scene one of our protagonist's arm gets chopped off, you are far more likely to fall for it. I genuinely thought she lost an arm and a part of her foot. I expected her to be saved by someone, but I bought the arm being chopped off. and the show telling me something that could have been foreshadowing beforehand was what made it so believable. specially because the show has already established doing real foreshadowing at serval places. Yes, when the dream was happening I was thinking that, obviously, she would survive somehow. She must survived, because we know that she doesn't die, so I started thinking how it could work she her losing limbs. |
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Apolygon2 said: THIS my dude, is a servalspoilers for episode 7 with there being a whole conversation relating to replacing limbs with mechanical parts, it puts that idea in the realm of possibilities. you don't think too hardly about it, but you now know it's a thing that can happen on the back of your mind. so when in the fake-out scene one of our protagonist's arm gets chopped off, you are far more likely to fall for it. I genuinely thought she lost an arm and a part of her foot. I expected her to be saved by someone, but I bought the arm being chopped off. and the show telling me something that could have been foreshadowing beforehand was what made it so believable. specially because the show has already established doing real foreshadowing at serval places.  But nah. "Well-written" is a broad term. Even if we assume the show IS brilliantly foreshadowing things it still doesn't cover "writing" as a whole. Besides, it's "foreshadowing". We'll never know unless and until the revelation comes so calling it "extremely" well written is slightly an overstatement. |
TRC_Randy said: Apolygon2 said: THIS my dude, is a servalspoilers for episode 7 with there being a whole conversation relating to replacing limbs with mechanical parts, it puts that idea in the realm of possibilities. you don't think too hardly about it, but you now know it's a thing that can happen on the back of your mind. so when in the fake-out scene one of our protagonist's arm gets chopped off, you are far more likely to fall for it. I genuinely thought she lost an arm and a part of her foot. I expected her to be saved by someone, but I bought the arm being chopped off. and the show telling me something that could have been foreshadowing beforehand was what made it so believable. specially because the show has already established doing real foreshadowing at serval places. But nah. "Well-written" is a broad term. Even if we assume the show IS brilliantly foreshadowing things it still doesn't cover "writing" as a whole. Besides, it's "foreshadowing". We'll never know unless and until the revelation comes so calling it "extremely" well written is slightly an overstatement. i agree that foreshadowing is not enough to make a show as a whole well written. but this was just a random example. i called it extremely well witten, for its mystery structure, theming, subtle story telling, characterization, along side its foreshadowing and many other things. tbh the only thing on the writing side that has not impressed me is the dialogue being only "good". nothing special. everything else is either great or better. |
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bahimiron said: I disagree. Claiming that this is the case is the same as claiming that all works do not have any intrinsic value, that everything is on the viewer, and I refute that."Good is subjective. " There are works that are objectively better than others. They are better directed, better written, better animated (for animated films), etc. They are more ambitious or try more to give a different point of view. You can tell that the story is told on a more fluid way, that it tries to tackle more interesting matters or picture them in a different way. It's the curse of this epoch to consider that all things have the same worth, because people do not want to be challenged and want the others to accept that what they like has the same artistic value than what others like. This does not however ensure that an objectively better made anime (or any pieces of art) will be more enjoyable. Enjoyment is subjective indeed and there's no shame in enjoying better an anime with less ambition. I have no problem saying that Violet Evergarden is better made than Black Lagoon (well, apart from the film...) but I enjoy watching Black Lagoon a lot more. |
rvdboomMay 15, 2023 3:19 AM
rvdboom said: just a pointer, don't use 2 beloved classics when making an example like this....Violet Evergarden is better made than Black Lagoon there are so many not amazing shows you could have used as comparison. black lagoon is a lot of people's top 10. |
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Apolygon2 said: just a pointer, don't use 2 beloved classics when making an example like this.... there are so many not amazing shows you could have used as comparison. black lagoon is a lot of people's top 10. Sure but I still needed to find one that I enjoy. :-) Objectively, I find VE better made (animation, art, adressed themes), which does not mean BL was bad, just that it was less ambitious and well fabricated. But while I rewatch regularly BL, I won't rewatch VE since the film killed completely the enjoyment for me. |
rvdboom said: Apolygon2 said: just a pointer, don't use 2 beloved classics when making an example like this.... there are so many not amazing shows you could have used as comparison. black lagoon is a lot of people's top 10. Sure but I still needed to find one that I enjoy. :-) Objectively, I find VE better made (animation, art, adressed themes), which does not mean BL was bad, just that it was less ambitious and well fabricated. But while I rewatch regularly BL, I won't rewatch VE since the film killed completely the enjoyment for me. I have not seen VE but I know for a fact that black lagoon does plenty to dive into it's themes and characters. and it does have ambitious elements. while yes the production is certainly worse, black lagoon is good enough that there can be an argument made for it being better, even if violent evergarden is an absolute masterpiece. you are making a point here. and when comparing 2 great shows, half the people automatically disagree with you purely because they may think black lagoon is better. |
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| Ye. I like that. Could do without all the sexual weirdness and genderbending confusion, but I like this part. |
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| I get your point, but I think you should watch VE to understand why I chose these two examples (skip the film though...). And I agree, Black Lagoon is great. |
Merve2Love said: I mean it could... but why would it?Ye. I like that. Could do without all the sexual weirdness and genderbending confusion, but I like this part. they don't take anything away, if anything they add to the story. and because sex sells, they also help engage a percentage of the audience more. I don't see the downside. it's not like it's distracting dumb crap that's there just for fanservice. |
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rvdboom said: I don't see why that would matter. I would stand my point even if you used one of my all time favorite shows as an example.I get your point, but I think you should watch VE to understand why I chose these two examples (skip the film though...). And I agree, Black Lagoon is great. the problem wasn't from the quality of VE, it's black lagoon being great enough to create division. also, why would I skip the movie? ratings wise it seems like people like it even more than the series. maybe they are wrong, maybe I would think it sucks, but like.... why would I not watch it myself and take your word for it when it's so highly acclaimed? |
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Apolygon2 said: Merve2Love said: I mean it could... but why would it?Ye. I like that. Could do without all the sexual weirdness and genderbending confusion, but I like this part. they don't take anything away, if anything they add to the story. and because sex sells, they also help engage a percentage of the audience more. I don't see the downside. it's not like it's distracting dumb crap that's there just for fanservice. Dunno...but does it add something, tho?^^ Other than the sex sells thing, I mean? It feels like a Made in Abyss -Situation to me, where the Author just ...likes...certain stuff and kinda uses his work to insert his fetishes, to a degree. Im just a bit weirded out by it. Not saying he can't do that. It's just not my thing^^ |
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Merve2Love said: Apolygon2 said: I mean it could... but why would it? they don't take anything away, if anything they add to the story. and because sex sells, they also help engage a percentage of the audience more. I don't see the downside. it's not like it's distracting dumb crap that's there just for fanservice. Dunno...but does it add something, tho?^^ Other than the sex sells thing, I mean? It feels like a Made in Abyss -Situation to me, where the Author just ...likes...certain stuff and kinda uses his work to insert his fetishes, to a degree. Im just a bit weirded out by it. Not saying he can't do that. It's just not my thing^^ in made in abyss's case it barely works. the author attempted to add to the themes of the show with it at first it seems like, but then half the scenes are just clearly there because he wanted to put it there, so I get it for that show. a lot of it is used for humor, but like, I for one don't think it's funny. but here it's a bit different. it's clear that the maru being attracted to kiruko is a big part of their dynamic. and kiruko being the body of his sister while having a sister complex, already creates for an interesting character progression. will his admire of robin turn into a crush because of his... well now her new body? unlike made in abyss, the lewd scenes here are a big part of the characters and dynamics. you could take the papa pole joke out, and nothing would change about dawn of deep soul. but if you take every lewd thing out of this, it would have a decently big impact on a lot of things. |
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Apolygon2 said: Merve2Love said: Dunno...but does it add something, tho?^^ Other than the sex sells thing, I mean? It feels like a Made in Abyss -Situation to me, where the Author just ...likes...certain stuff and kinda uses his work to insert his fetishes, to a degree. Im just a bit weirded out by it. Not saying he can't do that. It's just not my thing^^ in made in abyss's case it barely works. the author attempted to add to the themes of the show with it at first it seems like, but then half the scenes are just clearly there because he wanted to put it there, so I get it for that show. a lot of it is used for humor, but like, I for one don't think it's funny. but here it's a bit different. it's clear that the maru being attracted to kiruko is a big part of their dynamic. and kiruko being the body of his sister while having a sister complex, already creates for an interesting character progression. will his admire of robin turn into a crush because of his... well now her new body? unlike made in abyss, the lewd scenes here are a big part of the characters and dynamics. you could take the papa pole joke out, and nothing would change about dawn of deep soul. but if you take every lewd thing out of this, it would have a decently big impact on a lot of things. Kinda feel that's highly debateable. I agree. It doesn't feel as extreme in this Show, compared to MiA. But I could easily erase scenes like Kiruko trying to kiss the image of her sisters body, in the mirror - and nothing would change, you know. I do think it's compareable to Made in Abyss in the sense that these preferences can (sometimes) take over more interesting parts of the story. You mentioned fanservice, so I use it as an example: I don't need a pantyshot EVERY Epsiode and I don't need to be reminded of the fact that these kids are supposed to be sexual beeings EVERY Episode neither^^ Since Maru learned of this whole body-issue there wasn't a SINGLE Episode that missed to mention the attraction and horny feelings he's still having, despite "Neesan" beeing a boy, at this point. And that is since when? Epsiode 3? That's so much time dedicated to this whole Topic. I feel it's a bit much. |
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Merve2Love said: you could, but it's nice foreshadowing that got people guessing on why she did it. if you took it out... you would take out the hint. which wouldn't ruin the show, but it would take away something. unlike the jokes in made in abyss which actually had 0 affect. But I could easily erase scenes like Kiruko trying to kiss the image of her sisters body Merve2Love said: Since Maru learned of this whole body-issue there wasn't a SINGLE Episode that missed to mention the attraction and horny feelings he's still having, despite "Neesan" beeing a boy, at this point. And that is since when? Epsiode 3? That's so much time dedicated to this whole Topic. I feel it's a bit much. that's not really a fair thing to say. him being attracted, to her is both ongoing and ever developing. it's not a one time thing. it can't be a one time thing while serving the same purpose. |
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Apolygon2 said: Wait...foreshadowing, but so what? xD Him beeing kinda horny, seeing his dead sisters naked body in the mirror? xD That's so weird. You telling me this couldn't be done a little more subtle?^^ There was no other way? That's just not true.you could, but it's nice foreshadowing that got people guessing on why she did it. if you took it out... you would take out the hint. which wouldn't ruin the show, but it would take away something. unlike the jokes in made in abyss which actually had 0 affect. Im not saying it never serves a meaningful purpose. Im saying it is mentioned every. single. Episode. Him wanting to grab a genderbending boy's female body's boobs IS showing attraction - sure. But cmon...that's the profound an meaningful way we're meant to understand these feelings? It's not about that, is what Im saying. It's about the Author enjoying the thought of a genderbending boy's boobs getting fondled by a sexually confused Teenager, at this point^^ Maybe you give him too much credit for these things. I feel like this isn't really done for the plot. It's spicy, on purpose. |
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Merve2Love said: it was more subtle.You telling me this couldn't be done a little more subtle? the subtle hint, was she saying "I'm actually a man too" to those creep guys in episode 1. this was meant as a head scratcher. a bigger hint that actually makes you start questioning thing. it being weird is why it works so well as a hint Merve2Love said: Im not saying it never serves a meaningful purpose. Im saying it is mentioned every. single. Episode. again, that's because it's both ongoing and ever developing. we see it every episode, because his crush isn't going away. it's actually evolving episode by episode. Merve2Love said: maybe, maybe not. that doesn't matter. what matters is that it serves a purpose. it can be both.It's about the Author enjoying the thought of a genderbending boy's boobs getting fondled by a sexually confused Teenager but it's not just fanservice, it's an essential part of the story. it's kinda like CSM. it may be partly there because the author wanted to put it there. but it's also important enough to the story that taking it away would hurt it. |
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Apolygon2 said: Because if I choose a show that everybody finds inferior anyway, there's no point to make anymore: quality level and enjoyability level converge to the same (one is good, the other is bad or at least less good). I don't see why that would matter. I would stand my point even if you used one of my all time favorite shows as an example. the problem wasn't from the quality of VE, it's black lagoon being great enough to create division. also, why would I skip the movie? ratings wise it seems like people like it even more than the series. maybe they are wrong, maybe I would think it sucks, but like.... why would I not watch it myself and take your word for it when it's so highly acclaimed? The point is actually to make that two enjoyable shows can have distinctive "quality" value. That's why I choose two praised shows as example. And to empathize this point, I indicated that personally I prefer the show that I find objectively less well made. As for the advise I gave you, it's like any advise. Do what you want with it. If you want me to elaborate, we can do that in private mail or on a specific thread for VE. If you don't, that's perfectly fine. |
TRC_Randy said: But nah. "Well-written" is a broad term. Even if we assume the show IS brilliantly foreshadowing things it still doesn't cover "writing" as a whole. Besides, it's "foreshadowing". We'll never know unless and until the revelation comes so calling it "extremely" well written is slightly an overstatement. Is not about "foreshadowing", this isn't what he was talking about, about the mysteries and their revelations. Apolygon2 said: Merve2Love said: I mean it could... but why would it?Ye. I like that. Could do without all the sexual weirdness and genderbending confusion, but I like this part. they don't take anything away, if anything they add to the story. and because sex sells, they also help engage a percentage of the audience more. I don't see the downside. it's not like it's distracting dumb crap that's there just for fanservice. I really don't understand and it annoys me seeing so many people repeating this mantra, "the autor fetishes". I mean, saying this about an anime... an anime! Most of them are chock-full of unjustified sexual scenes, many of them are there apparently to fill a quota because of "sex sells" like you mentioned. Like I think I said before, is not that this series has fanservice, sex, fetishes in the common way you find it in anime, it's more that it "includes" sexuality as part of the story. Unfortunately, seeing the reception and some of the comments this series receives it's no wonder we don't see more anime (and manga) like this being made. |
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Merve2Love said: Wait...foreshadowing, but so what? xD Him beeing kinda horny, seeing his dead sisters naked body in the mirror? xD That's so weird. You telling me this couldn't be done a little more subtle?^^ There was no other way? That's just not true. Im not saying it never serves a meaningful purpose. Im saying it is mentioned every. single. Episode. Him wanting to grab a genderbending boy's female body's boobs IS showing attraction - sure. But cmon...that's the profound an meaningful way we're meant to understand these feelings? It's not about that, is what Im saying. It's about the Author enjoying the thought of a genderbending boy's boobs getting fondled by a sexually confused Teenager, at this point^^ Maybe you give him too much credit for these things. I feel like this isn't really done for the plot. It's spicy, on purpose. Of course it's mentioned in every episode. One of the main topics of this series is to show the slow acceptance of Kiruko that her mind and body are not disconnected and that she's no longer the brother or the sister or a mix of both, but a new person. A girl. And accepting this body as hers is a slow process, which needs these scenes when she realizes she's desired and not just loved. You can't just express this by two sentences and a blush. Kiruko has been alone basically for four years, since her operation. Maru is the first person with whom she stays all days. She never has been seen before as the destination of love or sexual desire. And he's a 15 years old teenage boy spending in time with an older girl who has a very relaxed view on his libido issues (because she still thinks as a male, an older one on top of that). So what would be weird is definitely if they would not talk about it. |
rvdboomMay 15, 2023 10:01 AM
PaninaManina said: Like I think I said before, is not that this series has fanservice, sex, fetishes in the common way you find it in anime, it's more that it "includes" sexuality as part of the story. Damn... looks like you manage to say in one sentence what I tried to express in twenty posts... |
rvdboom said: Merve2Love said: Wait...foreshadowing, but so what? xD Him beeing kinda horny, seeing his dead sisters naked body in the mirror? xD That's so weird. You telling me this couldn't be done a little more subtle?^^ There was no other way? That's just not true. Im not saying it never serves a meaningful purpose. Im saying it is mentioned every. single. Episode. Him wanting to grab a genderbending boy's female body's boobs IS showing attraction - sure. But cmon...that's the profound an meaningful way we're meant to understand these feelings? It's not about that, is what Im saying. It's about the Author enjoying the thought of a genderbending boy's boobs getting fondled by a sexually confused Teenager, at this point^^ Maybe you give him too much credit for these things. I feel like this isn't really done for the plot. It's spicy, on purpose. Of course it's mentioned in every episode. One of the main topics of this series is to show the slow acceptance of Kiruko that her mind and body are not disconnected and that she's no longer the brother or the sister or a mix of both, but a new person. A girl. And accepting this body as hers is a slow process, which needs these scenes when she realizes she's desired and not just loved. You can't just express this by two sentences and a blush. Kiruko has been alone basically for four years, since her operation. Maru is the first person with whom she stays all days. She never has been seen before as the destination of love or sexual desire. And he's a 15 years old teenage boy spending in time with an older girl who has a very relaxed view on his libido issues (because she still thinks as a male, an older one on top of that). So what would be weird is definitely if they would not talk about it. Well....as I just said. It's a bit much for me. I don't need Maru's Libido coming up every Episode, to remind me of his sexual desires... Nobody actually needs that to understand how he feels^^ It's Fanservice in the end, in my humble opinion |
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Merve2Love said: It's fine, I can understand that this is not a part of this show you like, and there's nothing wrong with that.I don't need Maru's Libido coming up every Episode, to remind me of his sexual desires... Nobody actually needs that to understand how he feels^^ It's Fanservice in the end, in my humble opinion What you don't seem to have got from my previous message was that you don't need that to understand how Maru feels indeed. But Kiruko perhaps needs that to start seeing herself differently (or so I believe is the author's position). I find it an interesting take. |
rvdboom said: Merve2Love said: It's fine, I can understand that this is not a part of this show you like, and there's nothing wrong with that.I don't need Maru's Libido coming up every Episode, to remind me of his sexual desires... Nobody actually needs that to understand how he feels^^ It's Fanservice in the end, in my humble opinion What you don't seem to have got from my previous message was that you don't need that to understand how Maru feels indeed. But Kiruko perhaps needs that to start seeing herself differently (or so I believe is the author's position). I find it an interesting take. Yeah...does she, tho? Is that really something plot relevant or even an Idea meant to be Part of the overall Story? I feel like it's just there, cause the author is quite turned on by this little situation. It feels so meta and forced. |
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Apolygon2 said: yeah, i legit missed that. Dammit.i agree that foreshadowing is not enough to make a show as a whole well written. but this was just a random example. Apolygon2 said: oh i'm sorry man, but even as a whole i still wouldn't call it "extremely" well-written. Like compared to the endless number of well-written anime out there Heavenly Delusion so far is just doing what most of them have done in their early stages.i called it extremely well witten, for its mystery structure, theming, subtle story telling, characterization, along side its foreshadowing and many other things. Apolygon2 said: yeah i wrote in the other thread complaining about the dialogue as well. Some of them felt too short.tbh the only thing on the writing side that has not impressed me is the dialogue being only "good". nothing special. |
TRC_Randy said: I think you're putting to much focus on "extremely"oh i'm sorry man, but even as a whole i still wouldn't call it "extremely" well-written. Like compared to the endless number of well-written anime out there Heavenly Delusion so far is just doing what most of them have done in their early stages. I just meant it's in the upper level of writing. like being the most well written anime this season unless we count vinland saga. I didn't mean it was one of the most well written anime ever made. |
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