On the Alliance (An analysis without manga spoilers)

Xilver said:
You sure are right with mini-rumbling being the best choice at the end.
But you are wrong about the themes, or about yeagerists not being fans of the series because they didn't prioritize the themes you did. It would be like me calling you non-fan because you clearly ignore the theme of selfishness, of overcoming the fatherly sins and keep moving forward, no matter what it takes, and that's the theme of "enemies of humanity", if you wanna know what it is - try searching it on google images, just that, you don't even need to specify attack on titan, you'll instantly get the crux of it. Add to that the themes of "this world is cruel but beautiful" and "i was born into this world". And maybe you'll understand the spirit that drives anti-alliance sentiment from ideological
perspective(ignoring that some people think the problem is not the what, but the how).
Getting out of the forest is yet another way of saying getting rid of the monster/titan inside of you, it's another way of saying humanity suppressing its natural impulses, and only judging rationally & reasonably. In other words, embracing the values of enlightenment, and then going to its logical conclusion(which the way i see it is the death of the human, the individual). It's not like i don't get the theme, it's just not highest value in my value hierarchy.

nhl2004 said:



Oh no Im not saying those who do not put the children of the forest theme above all else are not fans. Im saying that the people that do not acknowledge the Children of the Forest theme are clearly misrepresenting AoT. You are not one of them , since you do get the theme, regardless of whether its on the top of your priority or not. I hope it makes sense lol. I also do not ignore the themes that you mentioned, its just that they werent relevent when discussing the alliance...... I made a separate thread about selfishness quite a a while ago. Also, I said most Yeagerists, not all of them lol

TheFounder131 said:
Mini rumbling was not even a real plan ,it was a fake plan proposed by Zeke to fool the paradisians. And it has so many flaws.
In this plan one has to bear as many children as possible to keep passing the Titan power, same as the king did for 100 years.
So historia would only have children just for the titan powers basically doing same as her mother, having children for a cause and not out of love. Isn't there was a theme called "getting children out of forest"? isn't opposite happening here, children are just being born for their use??? who despises the themes now?? the fact that those children would have to eat their parent and would only live for 13 years just makes this plan utter bullshit. Also historia's father wanted this, keeping the titan power in royal lineage and breeding as much children as possible but historia surpassed him. but this plan basically suggests to do the same as rod, another theme got butchered that is surpassing the father theme. You clearly didn't thought this???

The world was already planning to launch large scale Attack on paradise. So after the mini rumbling it's not like marley and other countries would sit down and let small island threaten them.
It's so easy to say paradise will catch up fast.
Listen paradise was already 100 years behind in tech. even if paradise catches up marley and other countries would be even more advanced at the same time. It's common sense, just use your brain.

These types of pseudo intellectuals are the worst part of the fandom who thinks they are always right but in fact their heads are filled with their delusional thoughts which makes them think they are always right.

Yeagerists are people who just want to protect the people of their country from the outside world who wishes their doom.
When I was reading the manga I didn't sided with anyone but now I am sided with yeagerists, cause after the ending floch makes the most sense.
I would have sided with hange if she and her team had any kind of plan but no.

Xilver said:

I just think people are not good at articulating their feelings and thoughts on the matter. When people ignore a theme, a lot of times it's just not close to their heart, or their spirit.
Eren has a spirit that entices people to follow him, to support him. People believe in that spirit, and then try to find reasons and rationalizations for it, for why they think he is true(using the word true in a very broad manner here). But explaining the spirit itself is very difficult.



I just feel like a lot of Eren is primal, and to get out of the forest is to reject that primal soul, and leave it behind. I don't believe that's the correct way. I don't believe we, the humanity in real life, must get rid of the monster inside of us, i believe the correct way it to learn to control the monster. And even, learn to understand it.

And i wasn't saying those themes had relevancy when discussing the alliance. I'm saying they're relevant when discussing the part of the fandom that is more on Eren/yeagerists' side. They just have their own themes they cling to. They just have their own spirit they identify with.

nhl2004 said:



No. Rod tried to return to the status quo of the 100 years, where the Ideology of the first king would rule over the Island. They would have to live in isolation and not know about the world outside and accept death willingly for it to be a return to Rod's Ideology. The governments plan wasnt that at all. Historia and her descendants would need to inherit the beast while someone else has the Attack and Founder. they would maintain relations with Hizuru, modernize and preserve their lives and freedom.

Marley and the others are already planning to destroy Paradis, sure. But they're definitely gonna piss their pants after they see what a Rumbling is capable of, even in the small scale. Think of how Japan surrendered after just two cities got nuked? America didnt need to kill every Japanese to stop the war did they? Just scaring them a bit does the trick most of the times.

Who said its possible for Paradis to not catch up with the help of Hizuru? There is actual precedence for this in history. Like how Japan modernized in 60 years to catch up to the likes of European powers during the Meji period. They were in the Middle Ages at around 1800s and went on to become a modern colonial power by the 1900s. Not impossible in the slightest.

The worst part of the fandom arent us "pseudo intellectuals" as you describe. Its idiots like you who cant see the bigger picture and lack critical thinking skills.

Hot_Green_Tea said:
Out of all(mostly garbage) threads that are made everyday, this is one of the good ones. It's long but most of the contents are worth reading, well put.

nhl2004 said:
A portion of AoT's watchers ( I will not call them fans because they despise the themes of this series) have a strong hatred for the Alliance (particularly the Paradis members) and what it stands for. They think the Alliance, just by the virtue of standing against Genocide, are working for the detriment of Paradis and its people. Some arguments and my counter arguments include

- The outside world is trying to kill Eldians, so stopping the Rumbling means the world will steam roll over Paradis

No. The Rumbling is a weapon, a gun that can be fired. But it can also be used a deterrent (like nukes are used in the modern world). All they need is a mini rumbling to show the world its power, to buy time for Paradis to modernize. This is what Armin thought Eren was going to do, hence a positive reaction when the rumbling started, followed by horror when he realized that Eren meant extinction. This is why they are planning to convince Eren for now and not attack him outright. Even if they do have to kill him, they'd only have to feed him to say Jean and make Historia eat Zeke and they'll be able to defend Paradis once more

- Even if they buy time now, the world will hate Eldians and will bomb them once titans are irrelevant

No. While the normal titans are going to be irrelevant in a few years time in the AoT verse, the Colossal ones, absolutely not! A force of a million of those guys would be a formidable deterrent even in the real world today. Paradis will have to catch up with the world fast and only build an air force to secure its skies since their enemies will not be able to make a land invasion (Island) and any amphibious assault can be thwarted by posting Colossal titan sentinels at the coasts. The colossal titans are also ideal for attacking as they're not only humungous but can also heal injuries that are not to nape. The only things that can destroy these titans would be guided missiles or modern fighters but even those will only be able to put a dent on this massive force before being depleted. Hence well into the future, The Rumbling will be a viable deterrent because any aggression against Paradis can be answered by a 10x more destructive Titan invasion

- Why would you fight to save people who hate you?
Because thats what the Survey Corps have always done. Way before things got this complex, the Survey corps were seen as a nuisance and waste of tax payer money by the people of Paradis. many of them even wished for their deaths and betted on the number of casualties they'd incur. Yet despite that, they continued to sacrifice themselves for people who hated and looked down on them because they couldnt stand the idea of humans being trampled by Titans.
This is no different.
I have previously proven that absolute extinction isnt an absolute necessity for the survival of Eldia. Given that Paradis' future can be ensured with far less human bloodshed, its natural for some people to feel that a Full Rumbling is excessive and unjust. Keep in mind that soldiers like Levi, Hange and Jean have always seen themselves as humans (whose main goal is survival) as opposed to newer recruits like Floch, who see themselves as separate from humans (who want to restore the Eldian Empire)

To summarize in short, as humans, the older generation of soldiers sought to protect Paradis while not killing an unnecessary amount of humans, while the Yeagerists who see themselves as Eldians and not humans seek to murder everyone who hates them regardless of whether its necessary or not.

Levi , Jean, Armin and the rest dont care if the worlds hates them or not. They simply do not want to kill other humans when its not required. Of course they want Paradis to survive but in their minds, Paradis was already saved the moment Eren gained the power of the Founder. Everything outside of their plan of deterrence and development is seen as unnecessary bloodshed by them , which is why they choose to talk things out with Eren and convince him otherwise. Therefore their position, even in this situation, is a valid one

- They are allying with the same people who killed their comrades

Sure and they also allied with Zeke at one point to further their goals..... Zeke who killed far more Scouts than Annie or Reiner ever did .But nobody in the fanbase said a damn thing then right? Thats because Yeagerists have a bias towards nationalism

Protecting my race - good
Preventing billions of unnecessary deaths - bad

THE THEME -
Most Yeagerists (or the hatedom of AoT) do not acknowledge or want to acknowledge the Children of the Forest theme. Genocide does not bring you out of the forest. It only makes sure you're the only one left in that forest. The only legitimate way to end the cycle of hatred would be to exit the forest, along with everyone else. That should create a time of peace and harmony. Regardless, it will be a temporary peace as humans will once again lose themselves in the forest............until they once more decide to put aside their differences and come out. It is an endless cycle, but not an entirely hopeless one.

Now Im not preaching absolute non violence. Violence is key to victory and victory is key to survival. But necessary violence is one thing and indiscriminate excess violence is a whole new game altogether

AishaBi said:
this thread is garbage as well. How tf can mini rumbling solve it? Hatred won't be removed and the rest of the world will get stronger that one day even founding Titan will be useless and even for Titans to remain the same, eldians will be used as livestock. The reason for them to not side with Paradis because they're survey corps who once was hated by tax payers. Bruh wtf survey corps cared about the same tax payers and humans inside wall but alliance are doing something which will result in extinction of people in Paradis. Everyone knows should have known by now that it's your people vs the world. Zeke's plan or eren's plan..

Hot_Green_Tea said:


I think that the analysis on the Alliance and what they stood for is spot on.

The tax payer is a form analogy, it meant that "even if the Survey Corps are hated by the people, they would still fight for those people". The people here refers to the people inside the walls during the time when it's just Humans against Titans. What Hange, Levi, and the rest of the Alliance fight for are the same, humanity, not as Eldian, but as Human.

Prior to Eren's full rumbling, I also think that Mini Rumbling and the 50 year plan would work. However, now that Eren activated full rumbling to exterminate the world, they(the world) don't have any choice but to fight/retaliate.

The sequence of what I also think might happen differ from OP. I was editing it when you replied.

AishaBi said:

you can't compare survey corps with alliance. Survey corps had a narrow path, i.e killing titans for humanity but here it's humans vs humans. Survey corps are just saving people. But alliance are just saving the rest of the world by putting their own people lives in danger. He shouldn't have used the word survey corps

kension said:


Isayama talked about the symbolism of survey corps in one of his old interview. So given that context he's not wrong. But majority of people are not aware of that interview so it would seem strange indeed.

AishaBi said:

can you explain what did he say?

AishaBi said:
you can't compare survey corps with alliance. Survey corps had a narrow path, i.e killing titans for humanity but here it's humans vs humans. Survey corps are just saving people. But alliance are just saving the rest of the world by putting their own people lives in danger. He shouldn't have used the word survey corps

Mini rumbling is just delaying the extinction of Paradis. Let's assume they destroyed global alliance then what? Years later the rest of the world will declare war on Paradis again with better technology. Then let's assume we somehow managed to destroy the global alliance again. This will just continue until the technology gets stronger than founding Titan which means Paradis biggest weapon is useless.. and Paradis is still 100 years behind so Paradis has no chance to win against the world with technology.

AishaBi said:
you can't compare survey corps with alliance. Survey corps had a narrow path, i.e killing titans for humanity but here it's humans vs humans. Survey corps are just saving people. But alliance are just saving the rest of the world by putting their own people lives in danger. He shouldn't have used the word survey corps

Mini rumbling is just delaying the extinction of Paradis. Let's assume they destroyed global alliance then what? Years later the rest of the world will declare war on Paradis again with better technology. Then let's assume we somehow managed to destroy the global alliance again. This will just continue until the technology gets stronger than founding Titan which means Paradis biggest weapon is useless.. and Paradis is still 100 years behind so Paradis has no chance to win against the world with technology.

kension said:
But Eren...

Those themes aren't opposite or "anti-Alliance". It's more like BOTH Yeagerists AND Alliance are part of the themes and complement each others, like the white and black wings on survey corps symbol, there's a reason it's not all white or all black because in either case it would be missing the whole picture.

oFFoy said:


Catching up is much easier to do than advancing forward, this applies to pretty much everything, it's like a square root function, the more you advance the harder it is to do advance even further. The first steps are always the easiest.

Xilver said:
Instead he got bunch of boring civilized humans, basically the same thing as was inside of the walls.

is the same general spirit that caused him to go genocide the world, the absolute majority of this world, for his own. That goes against the theme of getting out of the forest, which is generally alliances' theme.

AishaBi said:
if catching up is much easier then why African countries couldn't catch up to European countries? Instead Europe is now becoming even more advanced than Africa. Paradis is not few decades behind, they're century behind than the world. Catching up is almost impossible

Dragevard said:
Mini Rumbling will never work. You and many people always forget the technology advances of the outside world. They can pierce Reiner's armor now as shown in s4p1. A decade later. They'll have even stronger weapon that will make titan irrelevant

oFFoy said:


What are you talking about? Read some here https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Economy_of_Africa:
However, as of 2013 Africa was the world's fastest-growing continent at 5.6% a year, and GDP is expected to rise by an average of over 6% a year between 2013 and 2023.[3][9] In 2017, the African Development Bank reported Africa to be the world's second-fastest growing economy, and estimates that average growth will rebound to 3.4% in 2017, while growth is expected to increase by 4.3% in 2018.[10] Growth has been present throughout the continent, with over one-third of African countries posting 6% or higher growth rates, and another 40% growing between 4% to 6% per year.[3] Several international business observers have also named Africa as the future economic growth engine of the world.[11]