what do you think of oregairu season 3 ending

A_G_N said:
S3 strays very hard from light novel, character points are changed, plot is mishandled, entire scenes are changed, except the last two copy pasted episodes from light novel, everything else is basically fanfiction, so yes, read the novel if you can, if you havent from beginning, highly encourage you to do so cuz s2 also has cut some major stuff out, but last three vols should be fine too..

A_G_N said:
What, vol 13 was entirely ep 5-10, thasts the second last volume, or are you saying ep 5-10 didnt focus on prom, and for how good it is, go look at mal to see how good it is, manga and literature side is critically rated in mal, should give you an idea, filter it by Top Novels too, and for Harem, I'll give you that, its haremisque, I'm not arguing, but dont only read the final vol and think it will explain everything, and "the show not tell" argument, its been overused so much and was only a term Youtube anlalysts came up because s2 was much much vaguer then it was in source, a series where you need the Hachiman monologues to understand stuff and if you make it show and tell, its useless, especially if they dont even show half the stuff clearly for the casual watchers, where's the "show" in s3? What would happen if they took the same approach with Monogatari and cut out half of Araragi monologues which explains them in detail because its really hard to get every point by only showing, there are limits to showing..

The last novel is the last 4 eps, you think you'll get everything from that, read from begining to understand it, if you cant, thats fine, but judging the entire season by only the final book which was 4 eps, what about ep 1-10??

To give an example, I didnt see Hachiman dying internally for ep 5-10 because he couldnt meet Yukino, I didnt see Yui trying her best to not let Yukino get anywhere with Hachiman, I didnt see Yui's monologue line where it gives a hint that her love may not pure, I didnt see anime giving a clue of Hachiman being codependent to Yui, I didnt even see most of Yukino strife, the freaking 200 IQ move that Hachiman pulled against Yukimom wasnt even a move, Yukimom gave it to him because of his pathetic desperation to stay with Yukino, where was the Hayama closure that was supposed to be in anime, great side character interaction which made the side characters also human, where was the buildup?.Which season are you talking about here again?

S2 had minor issues with only cutting of really important Hachiman monologues and basically lot of Yukino scenes, s3 goes a whole another route with only the end pairing being the same.

For light novel, lets see I'll rate the oregairu novel on par with Monogatari, take the vampire and gore stuff, and only leave the character stuff but believable human character stuff and its pretty much equal, Monogatari literally brings the japanese language to a new level, and Monogatari's the st and 2nd top novel in MAl, so if Oregairu can be the third top novel of all time, believe me when I see its not just a fluke, there's tons and tons of other great novels, so why would oregairu only be the chosen one? Its equal to an actual great novel, just like Monogatari, so why I like the LN to death is because its pretty much one of the best light novels of all time...

Here-https://myanimelist.net/topmanga.php?type=novels

Check it out for yourself, why I hype the novel so much..

Rabita-Johora said:
Wow, there's so many negative opinions. Butthurted yui shippers? Goddamn, could you have seen that coming? I never even had thought of yui ending up with hechiman. Although The whole prom arc was to promote yukinos role as the main interest. Ah calm down guys, its your fault for even deluding yourself to think yui had a chance with him. Hachiman fall in love with yukino, doesn't matter how much yui has done for him, it was all started from pure guilt after all.

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


What are you talking about. Volume 14 with Yukino as cover has 10 chapters excluding preludes and interludes. It starts with a prelude and Chapter 1's title is "Even so, Hikigaya Hachiman's daily life continues" and it ends with Chapter 10 "That's why, Hikigaya Hachiman said". Just making sure we are both on the same page.

Prom 1 starts more than halfway through Chapter 4 (the actual event, not the setup). Shizuka and Hachiman's talk happen in Chapter 5. The Yui rejection happen in Chapter 6.

Honestly from everything you've posted in this thread and the other thread you sound like a Yukino fan. If so you should be more angry than anyone as her character had her final development stolen from her. Compare the following two characters. One cries because after she tries her best but is frustrated as it is still not enough to achieve her goals. The other cries about her situation but doesn't take any actions to improve her situation. Which of these two characters is more sympathetic?

Now I know that Yukino has mental blocks that stems from her past and from her family. Pushing past it is difficult, but everyday there are people who quit smoking, drinking, and using drugs despite heavy mental and physiological pushback. As a character shouldn't her growth from the entire series logically reach a point where she can finally confront her own feelings and go after her love?

The reason why she doesn't is simple as I have alluded to it in my last post: Oregairu is an otaku power fantasy in a high school romance setting. It would ruin the ending for them if the princess saves herself before the hero can do it. As such Yukino's entire character arc is going from an ice queen to someone who melted just enough to love Hachiman. She is no better than a plot device herself just like everybody else that's not Hachiman. That's sad and the character deserves better. ALL the characters deserves better, which is the reason why I'm upset with the series. If the writer just put in some effort to properly finish people's arcs and developments then many of the arguments I've made throughout this thread wouldn't be supported.

Finally I want to quickly address your points about the novel. In the stats box on the "Details" tab the Oregairu anime has 82,000 users. That's the number of people who followed the show for three seasons and after a long hiatus before the last season. Comparatively in the same box Oregairu novel has 12,000 users and Monogatari Season 2 has 3,000 users. That's laughably low and even niche OVAs have more users.
My point is that the website is myANIMElist.net for a reason. Unsurprisingly people use it mainly for anime. To get an estimate I tried using sales ranking for 2018 and 2019:

https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2019-11-27/top-selling-light-novels-in-japan-by-series-2019/.153764
https://www.animenewsnetwork.com/news/2018-11-29/top-selling-light-novels-in-japan-by-series-2018/.140165

I don't see Oregairu anywhere on that list. You'll also notice that many of the series on there hasn't had an anime adaption in years or at all, so it's not just a boost from anime.

A_G_N said:
MAL is an anime rating site, it'll always have more users on the anime side, the other side is people who have gone to read it and have come back to rate it on MAL. In an anime site, the number fo users isnt gonna be same no as the anime side, still 12000 people should still be enough, there are no big light novel rating sites I think, so MAL is the biggest one, but thats not the issue here, the rating will be the same, and for the link, 2018, thats by series, meaning, all the volumes combined, not each volume sales, oregairu wont be in top 10, but it'll be in top 20, its only a slice of life after all, but thats all popularity wise, I'm saying rating wise, it'll be top 5. Go back and search how many awards the LN has won if you want, its won 4, only one another LN has won something like that, if it was so not popular, why would be banned from the light novel polls in japan too, for being "too popular" and winning most all of the time? Its already in the halls of fame too, go check something else, reddit or something to get your answers I think, and as for prom, I donno what you read, vol 13, the second last volume was covered in ep 5-9, or are you saying those eps didnt contain anything prom related? Vol 14 was covering ep 9-12, which had both 1st prom and second preperations too, and for Yukino's arc, its been set up since beginning, its been concluded nicely too, again, different universes anime and LN, dont take the anime version of Yukino stuff and read only the final volume to see if it'll conclude everything, two different characters, both anime and LN yukino. Yui and Hachiman stuff are also very different..

Donno how you're judging the entire LN by only reading one volume and the anime for the rest, I'll be frank, if it was a power fantasy anime where the mc saves heroine archetype, 'll assure you, most of the people who read it will know, people wouldnt make whole freaking essay's discussing one of its main characters if it was just that dumb, its pretty easy to figure out if it is a typical highschool self insert wish fulfillment novel. The Yukino problems you mentioned werent there in the first place, its never been a issue, Yukino doesnt have mental blocks, she had trust issues, which was resolved in s2, s3 is just her overcoming her insecurities about herself, its not all, but again, explaining Yukino's character is gonna take an entire essay worth of stuff.

For popularity sales, I blame anime, anime like konosuba and any other nicely handled adaptations and everything got a huge boost for its LN from its anime, while oregairu anime didnt do a lot, thankfully its fans were already pretty huge in japan, china and the west too, asking on oregairu subreddit about the LN should be the easiest method, or I'll link it here.

Here - The top Novels of all time - https://www.reddit.com/r/LightNovels/comments/g9jjxv/top_selling_light_novels_of_all_time/

Notice how every other LN is some form of action based or out of this world psychological stuff(and some has had really popular anime's to boost it) and oregairu's the only one with normal characters, normal setting, and is only a slice of life......... there are LN with no anime but you get what I mean..
(Monogatari isnt involved because there's a whole issue of it being serialised as novel and non-LN, there's a whole thing about it) But yeah, reddit is prob the best place to get accurate answers..

At the end, think the series is your typical romcom if you want man, cant force you, but dont judge the LN by only looking at the anime or only one volume, as a reader, take my word for it, two different story, if you wanna find out, read the entire thing and judge it then, not by one volume and a trashy adaptation, dtifferent characters, different emotions, different motivations are in oregairu anime most of the time.

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


You were the one that originally said that the final two volumes were used to prepare for prom 2. I was just pointing out how that's not possible. And I like how your breakdown of Vol 14's adaption just keep changing lol, earlier you said it was only episodes 11-12

But I digress. None of the arguments you are making go against my main point: the ENDING was bad. Even from just the anime adaptations of early novels I thoroughly enjoyed the characters and the story. This is despite everything I said about it being a power fantasy as that doesn't automatically condemn it into a bad series. Hell, Slime and Irregular are some of my favorite series and they are probably the ultimate power fantasy. Oregairu deserves all the praise and awards that it receives from the earlier novels.

However like you alluded to Oregairu is a character driven narrative and without a satisfying conclusion to bring closure to the characters' storylines it does cast a pall over everything that came before it. None of the things I said would have been an issues if the the non-Hachiman characters showed any sort of growth or solved things on their own without Hachiman's intervention. Hell even in freaking Irregular where the main character is nicknamed "Magic Jesus", other characters still develop, grow, and accomplish things on their own.

Again I am going to use your favorite character as an example. Throughout the series we see her grow and learn to trust people. She finally gained some direction in her life and was able to confront her mother about her future. But when it comes to Hachiman she... gets frustrated and cries? I find disappointing as to me this is a poor character arc conclusion to an interesting character I've come to care about. With all that she's been through and for the sake of pursuing "something genuine" the next logically step would have been for her to speak her mind to Hachiman. Now she can END her confession by telling him that she still wants him to be with Yui due to various reasons. But not saying anything and just quietly crying to herself is a poor ending and reinforces the idea that she can't accomplish things without Hachiman's help.

Finally some thoughts on Reddit and LN sales. First please never say Reddit is the best source of anything except circle jerks. The whole place is a huge echo chamber due to how it is designed, namely the upvote/downvote system. Second, it is a well known fact that the purpose of anime adaptations is to help boost sales for the LN. Despite what your personal opinions of the adaptations are, Oregairu would have huge boosts of popularity from three seasons of anime adaptations. Due to the amount of monologues Oregairu, especially the last few novels, make for a poor adaption source material. Just having a still frame of a character looking wistful while they go onto a mental rant about things does not make for a good visual media. The best they might do is pull a Shokugeki and have panning shots while these monologues happen lol.

I definitely will read the full LN once Shin comes out and when I have more time. However considering I took your word for it and read the last volume then came away disappointed, I feel that if I actually read it and got even more attached the characters then I would be even more upset about the ending.

A_G_N said:
I didnt say ep 11-12 were vol 14 ever tho, I've been saying since beginning its ep 9-12, 11 and 12 are the only eps they rightfully adapted is what I'm saying. For prom, I might've said prom 2, I meant both proms. And for reddit, its a circle jerk, not arguing there, I'm saying researches and stuff are mostly correct, not the incorrect opinions.

Alright, from me reading the last volume, this is whats felt left unconcluded, Haruno's coping, Yui's moving on amd Hayama's situation, and since shin exists, its prob gonna be mentioned there, so thats prob fine.

And for Hachiman nterfering and problems being solved only then, I disagree, Hachiman doesnt give a solution to any of the side characters(only Saki's bar situation was solved) he gives an alternative easy choice, its not the right choice by any means, just the convenient method, there have been times where he fails, like in s2 during the Tamanawa situation, he was completely helpless, until Yukino comes and becomes blunt to Tamanawa to his face, the situation wasnt solved until then, Hachiman also monolgues how most of his "solutions" were incredibly lucky, and couldnt have pulled them ever without anybody's help.

For Yukino "crying" the last volumes, do understand that her minds been poisoned by Haruno's codependency shit, along with her insecurities about herself, and the fact that she believed Hachiman actually liked Yui with how much they hung out during s3, combined with the fact that she thought her family is trouble for Hachiman, she resorts to cutting ties, she's not good at social stuff, andso her insecurities, along with the other reasons immediately makes her take the harshest but righteous solution(according to her) she's been strong the entire series, the last 3 volume are when she's truly weak.

But since you're gonna be reading the vols, it should clear most of the plot holes and doubts you have, its explained, so dont worry, reading the entire novels really is the best explanation I can give..

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


I definitely agree that in earlier volumes Hachiman does only offer the easy solution via sacrificing himself. Again, problem stems from the last volume. Prom 1 wouldn't have happened without him strong arming Yukino's mom. That's the only solution, not the easy solution. Prom 2 is an even bigger handwaved mess but I have already covered that before so I won't repeat myself here.

My point for Yukino is that she should have at least tried to move forward on her own and not need somebody to save her. I'm not saying she would try to win Hachiman over, but at the minimum speak her mind and then tell him to keep on course with Yui or whatever. Isn't that the very "genuine" connection they constantly harp about. Not hiding things and speaking their mind to each other? Ironically, by her needing to be "saved" by Hachiman almost proves Haruno's co-dependency BS.

See you also reassured me S3 is crap and the last novels are much better. It wasn't. S3 is a pretty straight forward adaptation but has difficulties since constant monologues does not work in a visual format. From the anime S3 I never got the impression that Hachiman was going to end up with Yui, rather it was obvious he was being pressured by Yukino whom he cares for.

It's not that I have questions about plot holes in the series but how the whole thing was wrapped up. Instead of doing a separate mini-series he should have just taken the time to do a few more volumes. I heard that before the last few volumes the writer went on hiatus. To me that's a huge red flag as writers overflowing with ideas and knows where the plot is going to go rarely go on hiatus unless due to health reasons. Maybe I'm just being too cynical at this point but it feels like the writer got tired of writing this series after almost a decade and just wanted to move on with his life.

A_G_N said:
Don't worry, just read the novels, just by reading vol 13, you'll see how much s3 is different in certain stuff. But yeah, shin has been divided into 6 vols each of 90 or 100 page, only the 1st vol has been released. Its gonna take another 6 months for every vol to be out, even longer for fan translations, I suggest you just start reading now. But you can wait some months too..

About the Hachiman still saving Yukino and proving Haruno's BS is a common question people ask, but for that I'm gonna have to explain the other volume plots, and Yukino not being able to do something is also asked a lot.

If you dont mind reading an thorough analysis on Yukino, it should be clear..

Yukino analysis - https://www.reddit.com/r/OreGairuSNAFU/comments/j38tq4/concerning_yukino_and_her_development/?utm_source=reddit-android

Also check out the Yukino and 8man comparison if you want - https://www.reddit.com/r/OreGairuSNAFU/comments/j7cins/yukino_and_8man_part_1_comparison/?utm_source=reddit-android

Its pretty accurate, should explain both of them..

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


Haha funny thing is I did read both of those already and I didn't start thinking about Yukino's development issues until after I read them. Per the guy's breakdown after Prom 1 Yukino justed need a chance to prove to herself to her mother which wouldn't present itself until Prom 2. As a character then her development arc is over as she would no longer "change". After all this she still cannot bring herself to tell Hachiman how she really feels. This would indicate that as a character she would never be able to move past this point. Despite this whole journey about seeking what's genuine, at the very end of her character arc she chooses to shy away from it instead. Again, I want to reiterate that she doesn't necessarily have to approach Hachiman with the goal of going out with him. At the minimum she should have been able to tell him her true feelings as he is obviously an important aspect of her life even if they ended up drifting apart.

You can of course interpret the events in a different way. Once the guy makes the post about co-dependency you can paraphrase some of the stuff I said and hear his thoughts on it. I heard the Shin novels would be packaged with the Blu-rays but I'm gonna have to wait for the translations haha.

A_G_N said:
Yh, Yukino should I guess, but again they're only 17 yrs old(jesus). The developments for their characters is gonna be continuing still, I thought as the s3 events happened in such a short time that to a person like Yukino who doesnt understand this easily, it might not have processed easily, so thats why she makes a lot of hasty decisions even tho she prob knows its wrong, but cant help but believe it is because of her overly insecure nature of herself. Thats how I processed it atleast, in the end, the story just boils down to two loners finding comfort in their similarities and differences and bonding over it..

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


I mean definitely at 17 they are still got their whole life ahead of them. But volume 14 is supposed to be the climax of the story where all the development pays off. By having Yukino back of there, then when if ever will she be able to take this step? When down the line she and Hachiman have an extreme difference of opinion that they can't reconcile and end up breaking up? That seems too depressing an end for such a hard fought romance.

On the topic of their ages, the whole timeline of the series is pretty crazy. I went back and looked it up apparently Hachiman went for over TWO YEARS without talking to a girl before the series started (except best girl Komachi of course). Yui also had a whole school year worth of time where she could have approached Hachiman but ended up doing nothing lol.

A_G_N said:
Nah, that was exactly the point of the confession, they're open now, nothing can break them apart, they've "sealed" themselves together essentially, Yukino saying I love you at the end signifies that they're very open now.

For the the other timeline stuff, yh you're right..

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


Not making a good case for non-codependence there haha. But I want to make the point that when you tell somebody how you feel when you don't know how they feel, that's a big deal. It's a completely different thing than reciprocating that to somebody who has already confessed to you as it is much safer. She wasn't able to confront her own feelings to take that final step and now will likely never be able to.

Now will Yukino and Hachiman ever break up? I doubt it will happen within the scope of the story. However throughout the series we've seen that they've both got a stubborn streak going. Sometimes a couple can be honest and genuine with each other but conflict will arise from wanting different things or even just disagreeing on the approach to the same thing. This inevitably leads to compromises and build up of resentment. The problem is exacerbated by the fact neither of them have any sort of unbiased support system. Is Yukino going to ask Yui for guy help for someone she still might hold out a flame for? Hopefully not lol. But hey, all this is just me using my cynical adult eyes to analyze a fresh teenage relationship. Doubt the writer will ever get to this point and instead go for a general happy ending.

A_G_N said:
Cant say you're not looking too much into details now, its a confession in the end, it doesnt have to be that complicated lol.

Dependence, I dont think Yukino has depended upon Hachiman from the beginning, only in the span between s2 ep 9 - S3 half is when it looks like she's depending, Yukino's been taking care of events alone till then, yes Hachiman intervenes in some, but thats not her fault, its Hachiman's issues that make him do it. In s1 she takes care of the school event herself and she succeedes there, another event(not in anime) was also done by her alone. Depenedency is only Yukino's belief, if we look from a outside perspective(for the LN) its clear that she isnt, but she believes she is, and then Haruno comes and puts words in her head, Hachiman states that she's being stubborn about not accepting help, and he's right, she doesnt have dependency issues,, she only believes that, Yukino accepting Hachiman's help in the last season signifies that she's finally ready to accept help as help and not make it into a big issue like Hachiman does too. Yukino wanting to do the prom was a personal wish at best, amd nothing actually problematic to her character, its only her belief. I mean, is her letting Hachiman help her for prom really make her dependent on him when she's always preferred to do stuff alone(s1, s2 president arc are examples), doesnt the whole dependency issue sound silly when its just simple help. Its just both Hachiman and Yukino complicating little things like usual because they're too twisted.

Relationship troubles is not a problem for them. Anime might seem like whenever they have a conflict they go different ways or something, but its not really like that, its more of their views of the world clashing more than anything, it just makes them closer whenever they do it too. Hachiman describes his relationship with Yukino as a relationship where both of them could co.pletely silent for an entire hour but still wouldnt mind because even thats enough for them, he also describes their relationship on early volumes as two people whose views have clashed so much that they've entwined itslef while gradually changing themsleves whenever they clash, its so entwined that no matter what happens they cant stay apart, this is the earlier volumes, now its like they want to entwined with each other and dont wanna let go no matter what happens.
Hachiman says on the bridge in ep 11 that no matter what happens he'll always be with her, and that she can stop caring about him, throw his feelings away and that it still didnt matter, as he'll still be with her. Ofcourse this is Hachiman's views, Yukino wouldnt really do those and would do the same if Hachiman does it too. They have wayyy too much chemistry and are wayyy to close to each other for measly issues to drive them away. Again, in LN they are, anime doesnt.... show half of it so....

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


It's not like the both of us haven't been deep diving into the series this whole thread lol. You are the one that cited a deep analysis of Yukino and Hachiman. I was inspired by it and came up with my own analysis which is what you are supposed to do. Sometimes you gotta read between the lines and dig deep into the characters to get the true picture. I had years of "experience" speculating A Song of Ice and Fire/Game of Thrones novels so I'm used to this type of stuff haha.

Again, this is just a point that we will just have to agree to disagree especially since it likely won't ever be covered even in the Shin series. I'm just speaking with experience as I've seen so many relationships fall apart that seemed "perfect". Also my god man, are you really going to hold what somebody says in a confession as an unchanging truth? You expect couples (especially the guy) to remain unchanging from the pursuit and honeymoon phase to the actual relationship?

A_G_N said:
Well, I dont think human normal relationships should be used to make points about Hachiyuki, cuz they are both characters that wouldnt exist normally, but are very well written to be fiction, I mean, if we think like that, everything is gonna be like that, if Hachiman says that he will, and Hachiman's wayyy too different from a normal guy, he'll prob hold on it..

For perfect relationships, well, if Hachiman was using every excuse to be with Yukino throughout the series, I think he'll do the same from now on, just minus the excuse part, and actually use desire as his reasoning.

Hmm, I think you're looking at relationships like how Hachiman viewed them in the beginning lol. If we look at it like that, every good relationship in media would be judged like that dont you think. In shin, he's going to meet her parents already, yes he says he doesnt want to meet them, but its not because of Yukino really, its because the people he's meeting(Yukimom and Haruno) are like devils, not really because of commitment, he already got their blessings in various conversations they had before too, pretty sure that guys commited to death..

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


Are you really going to use "it's just a story" as an excuse? Fictional stories should at least followed the rules it established within its setting. For Oregairu which is in a normal high school setting our real life rules apply. Fact is neither Hachiman nor Yukino are not as unique as you say. The whole purpose of Hachiman is to start as an awkward loner to appeal to certain demographics. Yukino's archetype of "cool beauty" has been around mangas and animes since the 80s (I'm old). There are lots of people in the world and maybe there are some that are like Hachiman and Yukino, if they were put in the circumstance of the show what would be the end result?

Funnily enough EVERY relationship in media does get scrutinized. Romeo and Juliet. Your Name. The Notebook. How I Met Your Mother. And everybody's favorite, Twilight and 50 Shades. If the best excuse you can make is "these aren't characters that would exist normally" where do you think Oregairu's status as a romance would fall among those listed above. Ironically I remember you comparing the main couple to Romeo and Juliet. Well thing is Romeo and Juliet are a couple of teenage idiots and the whole thing is a parody of the "classic love at first sight" that playwrights at the time loved.

I actually think Hachiman and the writer's view of genuine and superficial relationships is too black and white. Take Hayama's group which is Hachiman's prime example of a superficial relationship. Sure, they may hang out with each other at first due to being in the same "social hierarchy" , but if they enjoy spending time together and support each other then why does that matter? Conversely if Hachiman's parents tell him to do something he doesn't want to does he tell them to piss off? If not, does that mean he has a superficial relationship with his parents?

Ultimately I've just come to accept that Oregairu is written for teenagers. It won't hold up to any deep scrutiny and is hardly a literary masterpiece but it is a fun story.

A_G_N said:
Man, you really wanna bring it down that hard eh...

I guess Monogatari doesnt take the japanese language to a whole new level either, so much so that they couldnt even understand it sometimes, this was said by an actual proficient japanese person too, if Oregairu's second and even on the same level to that on some degree, meh, normal stuff I guess. The difference between a normal great novel and Oregairu's Light novel is basically nothing, the culture and theme is different, and teenagers, I dont even think most of the readers are teenagers, grown ass men are basically its demographic according to literally everybody I've seen who've read it, even grown men call the characters too adulty and boring sometimes. Lowkey the only teenagers in the fandom are the ones who watched the anime and related to edgy Hachiman, but I donno man, maybe every fictional novel is bad then, I've read some Harry potter, besides the plot, basically the same literary writing, except oregairu is based on characters more so, not saying its a masterpiece, it has its flaws too...

I think you're just overrating normal great novels to an extent, its not that mindblowing the normally great novels I mean, you can write it with the best english known to man, but if the characters or plot sucks, thats a bad book, but its subjective I guess...

leev said:
The ending was good. Or your ship dont win thats all. I like the couple but do you genuinely think the couple will stay forever? realistically they don't match imo. Yes for a couple of months, lucky if years. I know it should be taken with a pinch of salt but what Iroha said about the two won't stay together for long sounds true. But thats irrelevant lets put that aside, the reality he dated him I'm happy with that. Now about the rest of the 10 episodes everyone was moaning about? the way I see it thats how Oregairu has always been. They always used something like the prom for this one and other things for the previous seasons. The problem for me is the fact that this took 7 years to wrap the story that was cliffhanged in 5 years ago so the hype kind of died. It isn't a shonen action battle so the longest you should wrap this in 4-5 years max not longer than that.

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


I literally just used your own statements back on you. I'm not saying Oregairu is on the level of the works I talked about in my post, they are just there as an example showing that relationships in media DO get scrutinized.

By using Harry Potter you are proving my point again. Harry Potter started as a kids series and targeted young adults for the later books as the plot got more dense and dark. Like I mentioned earlier even though it's a fantasy setting everything in Harry Potter resolves within the rules that was set up. It has believable characters that function within its rules, that's why it's a great series. Harry's connection with Voldemort has been talked about since the beginning and they were able to beat back the dark wizards through great sacrifice. It didn't conclude its journey with an asspull deus ex machina and have Harry save the day with no repercussions in the last third of the final volume.

And truly great works surpass cultural barriers. Harry Potter. Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Lord of the Rings. These have been translated into hundreds of different languages to be enjoyed by people all over the world. It's not a stretch to say Oregairu is not up to par if it can't even handle basic scrutiny. It may be a good light novel, but that's ultimately just a big fish in a small pond. Many other LN series even outpace it in sales and popularity despite it getting boosted by three anime adaptions.

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


I literally just used your own statements back on you. I'm not saying Oregairu is on the level of the works I talked about in my post, they are just there as an example showing that relationships in media DO get scrutinized.

By using Harry Potter you are proving my point again. Harry Potter started as a kids series and targeted young adults for the later books as the plot got more dense and dark. Like I mentioned earlier even though it's a fantasy setting everything in Harry Potter resolves within the rules that was set up. It has believable characters that function within its rules, that's why it's a great series. Harry's connection with Voldemort has been talked about since the beginning and they were able to beat back the dark wizards through great most sacrifice. It didn't conclude its journey with an asspull deus ex machina and have Harry save the day with no repercussions in the last third of the final volume.

And truly great works surpass cultural barriers. Harry Potter. Romance of the Three Kingdoms. Lord of the Rings. These have been translated into hundreds of different languages to be enjoyed by people all over the world. It's not a stretch to say Oregairu is not up to par if it can't even handle basic scrutiny. It may be a good light novel, but that's ultimately just a big fish in a small pond. Many other LN series even outpace it in sales and popularity despite it getting boosted by three anime adaptions.

A_G_N said:
I only used Harry potter as an example, since its super well known, I'm only saying the wiriting isnt that different.

I wasnt using cultural barrier as an excuse, I was only saying thats the only difference between them, obviously it has an audience in the west and other places, obviously the cultural barrier is non existant as it is read by other country people too..

The top LN's are all basiclly action adventure, you get that right, no matter how mind blowing a slice of life LN gets,it cant beat an action/isekai/adventure LN's. The fact that oregairu can keep up with them by only being an slice of life should say lot about it. Action stuff just sells more, its how it has always been, so I dont think sales should be used to judge how good a book is in the LN world, when SAO and Demon slayer LN sells more than everything else, lets not use sales an definitive judging point, the ratings are what matter, but again oregairu still manages to be up in Top 20's in sales doesnt it, for ratings MAL's enough to give an rough estimate..

I havent actually seen one actual basic scrutiny, you've read the final vol and came up with stuff that was either never present or was solved earlier. And did you just use the one time Hachiman doest get any repercussions in the entire series as an excuse to say Hachiman doesnt get any repercussions at all, what about literally everything before that, deus ex machina, you mean literally begging Yukimom to not cancel prom, yep, deus ex machina it is..

I dont know how we're even discussing light novel when you havent read anything, the last volume is not the entire series..

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


I didn't say Hachiman never had any repercussion in the whole series just in his actions in the last volume specifically with the two proms. He just willed those things into happening with zero repercussions. And yes it is a deus ex machina. What, Yukino's mom just happens to be the leader of the PTA which we find out about as Hachiman needed it? If not and she's just another concerned parent then where are the others? The 2nd prom is an even worse deus ex machina. When did Hachiman pick up super negotiator skills that help him convince the people and schools needed for it? Did he read self help books on how to convince people during the 2+ years where he was entirely anti-social?

All of my issues are about the ending which is why I read the last volume. I never once raised any story element issues about the previous stuff so telling me to reading those volumes won't do anything for me. The writer just ended things poorly which the anime also adapted.

It's no coincidence that Oregairu find itself next to those "action/isekai/adventure LNs" as you call them. They target the same people, aka the otakus and other socially awkward people that spend money on these things. I've explained it multiple times already so go back and reread if you need to.

Honestly at this point you are just rehashing some of your old points which I have already refuted. You are the one that said I'm reading too much into it but now you are also saying that I don't have one basic scrutiny? Make up your mind.

Also please learn some basic spelling and grammar. You are not representing your fanbase favorably by typing like a middle schooler and talking about how deep and interesting the series is.

A_G_N said:
Well, don't know what was wrong with my grammar but okay..

Well, fine, the LN is only decent then...

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


I didn't say Hachiman never had any repercussion in the whole series just in his actions in the last volume specifically with the two proms. He just willed those things into happening with zero repercussions. And yes it is a deus ex machina. What, Yukino's mom just happens to be the leader of the PTA which we find out about as Hachiman needed it? If not and she's just another concerned parent then where are the others? The 2nd prom is an even worse deus ex machina. When did Hachiman pick up super negotiator skills that help him convince the people and schools needed for it? Did he read self help books on how to convince people during the 2+ years where he was entirely anti-social?

NakolHira said:


1.Hachiman convinced Iroha during SCP election arc (S2 ep3 onwards), it was enough to showcase his negotiation skills. You can argue Iroha is just another highschooler, unlike PTA. But that event showed Hachiman's skill and Prom2 extended it.

There are other occasions, like in cultural festival he alone made all of committee members realising their mistakes and thus committee works were more smooth. He persuaded Sagami as well.


2. For one thing, PTA was irrelevant for most of the plot, I agree. They didn’t bring PTA during other important events, other "conventional" important events like Kyoto trip, SCP election, cultural festival etc. However, this is strongly hinted Yukinoshita family having strong influence on school as well as local events. Haruno is already part of student alumni. Yukimama didn’t come into plot until something unconventional started to happen which might concern her family name. She first appears when her daughter is coming home late night (chocolate making event, S2 ep12 or 11), then appears again when a plan of prom, a relatively unknown event by Japanese standards, was in development phase. See, she has this purpose, "Stopping informal activities which may or may not harm her family name". In previous season when she didn’t appear, Haruno's convo with Hachiman already tells how Yukimama puts her family status above everything.She has this goal, has this motivation, has this purpose established well before, now merely acting based on it.


I don't think you should call this deus ex machina.

NakolHira said:
@h0ll0wxvict0ry

1.So you are saying pointing out those points to Iroha,specially when he considered her personality and he tried to learn the deal with her ,while giving her an excuse to seek help from Hayama ,can not be considered as negotiation skills ? Before going at Iroha,he took all sorts of preparation to convince her,knowing what makes her not to do SCP work and what makes her a candidate at the first place,how could you say it's not his skill when he clearly persuaded her into the way he wanted ?


I do not remember Hachiman ever trying to self sacrifice since SCP election . Let's consider Kyoto trip,where he succeded to maintain the status quo in Hayama's cliques . He had his own conviction of not believing in such superficial friendship,but he compared it to himself where he was enjoying his days in service club,which made him to think that he can't accuse those who enjoy a brief moment of peace cz everything would eventually end.You are saying when Hachiman gain social skills, didn't you see him asking a selfish desire in genuine episode ? He asked for help to Totsuka ,a newly made friend ,during running competition.He accepted multiple invitation from his classmates and joined their party,he gave gifts to both Yui and Yukino in Christmas,how could you say he didn't gain any social skills ?


2. Hachiman's leverage actually didn't come to work, (him getting into an accident caused Yukinoshita family car) Yukimama or any other person who is similar to Yukimama but not her, still would have denied him at that point.This said person already sought apology,compensated his medical fees and other charges.
What makes her changing mind,is that she found it interesting that a boy is going quite a long extent to help her little daughter.She was curious ,she understood what Hachiman was trying to play when he intentionally brought out the accident issue and so she wanted humor him by letting him accomplishing what he wanted,only to know what he would do in future .

The neglect you are talking about isn't wrong,but I think you misunderstood some points.Yukimama does get news of what her daughter is doing,specially from Haruno who praised her effort put in cultural festival in front of their mother . She cares about Yukino as her daughter but she didn't think of her capable of tackling hard and serious jobs,judging by her unusual honesty and poor in reading people's mind,something Haruno excels at.

Yukipapa allowed her to live alone,in order to keep Yukino away from that accident tension and Haruno's obvious teasing .Yukimama as usual was against it,but ultimately she agreed convinced by her husband with one condition,that she would be living in their apartment .

Haruno doesn't interfare in Yukino's life so that Yukino could get better and can be worthy of replacing her ownself,but because she likes to mess up with Yukino with an intension of keeping her away from not ending up being Haruno.Haruno said she doesn't care who would gonna succeed their father,but all she cared that Yukino wouldn't have to become like her,(giving up individual dreams,making a fake persona) in her own fucked up way.If yukino while retaining her conviction ,still is regarded worthy of succeeding their father ,Haruno wouldn't mind .

NakolHira said:
Well I disagree with you calling these deus ex machina which I don't believe they are, Hachiman always has showcased his particular skills in manipulating others to think it's the right solution, I don't think it was unexpected or could have done better replacing Yukimama with another random person, given that Yukimama agreed just because she found herself amused by the fact Hachiman is going at a certain length which can't mean anything but love for her daughter, any person would have given up if they didn’t had strong reasons like Hachiman had, and not to mention many characters already asked his reasons being while understanding the situation better than him (Tostsuka, Iroha, Hayama, Ebina all of them asked why he was doing this fake prom, because they understood it's a case of love not codependency or anything).

This situation was solved because people understood Hachiman loves Yukino, nothing else. Changing Yukimama to any random person would have resulted in the same. An unsolvable problem which was solved by using the most common reason being, love, can not be called deus ex machina.
However, keeping Yukimama in that position ensured Hachiman's acceptance by her in future.

I'm saying from TV tropes, "Deus ex Machina are solutions to a problem. They are never unexpected developments that make things worse," Yukimama being PTA leader was unexpected and didn’t turn things well for main characters.
"Deus ex Machina are external to the characters and their choices throughout the story." Hachiman's love for Yukino cannot be called external especially when the anime is about their relationship, be it friendly or romantic.

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


Why would another PTA leader care who Hachiman is? They wouldn't care about Yukino or who Hachiman loves. How is the identity of the PTA leader not deus ex machina, it has nothing to do with any of the characters and the position was never introduced until Hachiman needed it. If this element was never introduced then prom 1 would go through without a hitch and Hachiman would never set up the groundworks for prom 2(through alternate prom) and prove himself to Yukino.

Are you really going to use the power of love as an excuse like Harry Potter? Even in the sauna scene which was to unwind from preparing for Prom 2 people still weren't sure they were together. How can you be so sure that they know he loves her? Remember that Hachiman is supposed to be the one with the observation skills. Also previously when he needed their help most of them had to decline or offer very little as they are busy with their own life. But now suddenly they can just drop everything else?

NakolHira said:



Another PTA leader would have problem with prom, is something I can't see at the first place since school authority already gave permission. Let's assume, a complete duplicate person of Yukimama, who is capable of seeing things like Yukimama has, comes into the scene. She doesn’t concern Hachiman, doesn’t care about Yukino. All she has is this one purpose, make prom never happen. Hachiman would have tried making a fake prom plan, got ratiod soon by this woman. What purpose this character would serve then? Only to come into the plot and reject something main character wants to do, without having any ways of establishing this unknown woman's reasons for doing so.


But now, if this person gets amused like Yukimama did, witnessing Hachiman's deed, it’s perfectly normal given in this plot where side characters exist to help main couple, if she wants to humor him like Yukimama did even though it doesn’t concern her. I'm saying this, cz now this side character at least would do something meaningful, aka helping two persons to get together, unlike the way you wanted where an unknown person just comes to close the prom and then gets vanished from plot.

I'm again saying from TV tropes

"Deus ex Machina are solutions to a problem. They are never unexpected developments that make things worse, nor sudden twists that only change the understanding of a story."

Try to match this with Oregairu, PTA leader being Yukimama was unexpected, led way to developments that make things worse. Call it a sudden twist from where you got to learn how Hachiman can go extreme to achieve his goal, or Yukimama is just a overly sensitive mother who is ultimately a mother, not a person to be scared of. You get a better understanding of story.




Why wouldn’t I expect "power of love" in a romance anime? Why does it need to sound like an excuse? Why a romance anime protagonist's life can't get better because of the person he loves? Why does it sound wrong to expect help from the person you love unconditionally?

How can I be sure? Well, Hayama and Iroha confirmed it in their monologues, Hayama literally said "they are beings that can't not be together, nothing could make them happier even if they fall into hell together",
Previously when he needed their help, ok Totsuka once helped him in S2, Kawasaki as well. In the fake prom event Totsuka couldn’t help, he had his reasons still assured Hachiman that he would help if situation is that bad.Kawasaki was helping with Yukino and so she was not unsure about something which opposes Yukino's prom.

Hayama declined to help, because he is jealous of Hachiman who is screwing up things with Yukino,like Hayama did, while Hachiman just needed to say his feelings to her, properly.

Amatniki said:
IM SO FUCKING MAD
WHY THE FUCK DID HE CHOOSE YUKINO
YUI DESERVED HAPPINESS
FUCK YUKINO
SHIT ENDING
I NEED A SEASON 4 AND I NEED TO SEE HIKIGAYA BREAK UP WITH YUKINO AND TELL HER TO FUCK OFF FROM HIS LIFE AND THAT HE WILL BE MARRYING YUI

Amatniki said:
IM SO FUCKING MAD
WHY THE FUCK DID HE CHOOSE YUKINO
YUI DESERVED HAPPINESS
FUCK YUKINO
SHIT ENDING
I NEED A SEASON 4 AND I NEED TO SEE HIKIGAYA BREAK UP WITH YUKINO AND TELL HER TO FUCK OFF FROM HIS LIFE AND THAT HE WILL BE MARRYING YUI

h0ll0wxvict0ry said:


What ship sailed isn't the main issue, the issue is how it was handled.

Whether or not Hachiman is selfish or selfless in his previous actions, in prior seasons the things he did always had consequences. However in this season everything he desires just works out. And thank god he does, because no problem can be solved without his intervention. It's like the author got tired of the series and just high fived the main couple across the finish line, which is a bad departure from the more realistic outlook the show previously had.
Apparently Yui is just fine with having her heart broken as days later she went back to help her crush and his new love with their new project. I want to remind you that during the bench talk Hachiman said because he doesn't keep in touch with people, the end of the club would mean end of friendship with the girl not chosen. By pursuing Yukino, he is not only rejecting Yui but is abandoning their friendship as well.

The writing aside there is also general pacing issues in the anime. Most of the season revolved around Yui, whose fans like the episodes but hated the ending. The reverse is true for Yukino fans. The final result is that nobody is happy. This is quite similar to how everybody hated Death Note's ending.