Basic Mafia v4: Haruhi Suzumiya Mafia | Game Over - Mafia and Third Party Win

logic340 said:
We don't know what the outcome would have been you cut us short by 20 hours on our discussion, which means that is 20 hours worth of leads you took away from us. I would say your actions are more pro-mafia than Bursama's were. This shit was not called for and if you are town you just set yourself up for a mislynch D3. So how is what you did helpful in anyway and why should you be pardoned tomorrow? Where is the townie mindset in putting your own goals ahead of those of the town? You potentially set us back 3 townies with this move so I really hope you are scum at this point because for lynching Bursama for not having the town in mind you surely don't seem to have our best interest at heart either.

logic340 said:
So how do you plan on taking responsibility for these actions?

Patience, Bursama's my priority right now.

Here's the wiki page. If you go back to NnT, Soren actually explains this better.

I'd say that I'm not lowkey either. I was the center of attention for a chunk of D1 and I've been contributing a good amount of opinions. Not sure where you're getting this idea. Okay, looking through your post, you say that "lowkey" to you means uninspiring. Does this mean you don't find anything alignment indicative in our posts?

So you think that Bursama has been working with us? I get the opposite impression right now.
And about Grapefruit, we all form separate opinions then come together to discuss that's kind of how the game works. This is more independent thinking and less evasive, which is a towntell imo.

So you find Sithis mixing in negatives in his posts as a scumread? I...don't think that in particular was alignment indicative. Going to need better reasoning than this because this looks like you are making assumptions about Sithis' motives.

Okay, so you scumread him because you thought his reads were too easy?

Soren didn't have any "walls" in nanatsu and as far as I know he's trying to tone down his towniness when he rolls town these days. Though I agree it makes him a bit under the radar, just not necessarily scummy.

Part of me wants to just hammer this so the phase can end, we get a flip, and move on able to have a fresh start. Since all our discussion right now is focused on Bursama, we aren't learning anything about others. I would rather have more info and start working fresh day 3.

If not, can someone on the train remove their vote so we aren't in L-1? Then we can spread our focus more.

Mudflinging eh? Phraze voted for me on Day 1, and now he says I'm mudflinging. She has not explained this, when Gruffin asked her she never explained it.

What I am trying to say in my post is that what I get from talking about NKA is mostly speculation there is nothing indicative of alignment we can come up with by discussing NKA which is why people feel it is a distractions. - ref to#871(if needed)

Sonata said:


First of all, sorry again. I was very afraid you'd all turn the train into someone else after I was oh so sure that he'd flip scum. I'm a terrible player and I've let my impulsive nature take the wheel disrespecting my fellow town members in the process since I wasted 20 hours in which possibly we would have found something that'd lead to us noticing that Bursama was not actually scum (even if he voted himself up), though I thought all we'd find is an incoherent mess and paranoid discussion. I made a huge mistake in my judgement, and for that I sincerely apologize.

Second, I'm not asking to be pardoned, in fact what I meant by "taking responsibility" was offering myself up for a lynch in case there were no clues to follow and to give you security of my alignment if anything, I was just that sure that he'd flip scum (almost as sure as I am or was that Soren is scum aswell), but alas, I failed at being a good town, so I might aswell be lynched if that will bring tranquilty to the masses. Something I will say though, is that I am not (in the game context) scum, although my move and my person might as well be so.

So yeah, do as you please, I will just follow your guys' lead and point out whatever ideas I have but not make any decisive moves myself, since it hasn't worked for me lately which is kinda sad.

That's it. @Pentaflare I hope you'll forgive me, personally.

aa-dono said:
@logic340 hmmmmmmmmmmmm short answer because... I don't think I have the energy to type long ones.

Penta is scum.

I'll explain come Day phase.

Phraze said:
@PentaFlare
part of u wanted to hammer a phase end? this is fishy.

PentaFlare said:
Also, I'm still a little frustrated that I put so much effort in writing this post about Gruffin and the other people who listed Gruffin as a suspect of theirs haven't commented on it. Does everyone just agree with my conclusion? That's the impression I'm getting if nobody else thinks the topic needs more discussion.

logic340 said:
@Soren the way you said that Bursama is town for obvious reasons seems like scum knowing what the flip would be. I could see you possibly being town but the fact that you didn't follow through on your post #915 I am having a hard time seeing you as town right about now. So I am going to ask you very directly and I want an answer from you. What is the reason you knew (so obvious) that Bursama was town?

Bursama said:
@Soren: Why am I town to you?

PentaFlare said:
So this is going to be more of a post by post analysis than a cohesive read, but I'll try to tie it all back together at the end.

Post #102
This is Gruffin's first real post of the game. Right off the bat it seems to be analysis of players which is good but this post doesn't sit right with me. I'm seeing a lot of comments that would imply a scumread that seem to be selective reading (unjustified, scummy). For example, she says I seem to have an "odd focus" on Mishu. The mention of this being odd implies that it doesn't seem natural. Natural is townlike behaviour, odd is scummy. The problem is that I have also made comments on other players and have been working with Soren and Lucian on the second page. I don't see how someone would see me as fixated on Mishu unless they were focusing on only those posts. This is scummy. The same can be said for the comment that Lucian is fixated on Soren seeing as Lucian has also made comments to logic, grapefruit, and Mishu.
This seems like a scummy entrance to me. I can see where some of the suspicions that appear later stemmed from.

PentaFlare said:
The rest of page 3
Gruffin pursues her vote on logic asking for reads and criticizing the lack of scumreads saying that logic is taking the easy way out. This part sits more as a town motive to me.

PentaFlare said:
After this Gruff continues to have consistent play. Most of their posts are analysis of players and no more suggestions of scumminess that aren't justified with support and that are excluding things. She also continues to pressure people to take stands on who they think is scum and place votes. Despite knowing she is suspicious to some she isn't afraid to push ahead trying to hear scumreads from more people. This is not the approach of someone trying to protect themself but of someone trying to solve the game.

PentaFlare said:
(I'm aware I've stopped making this a post by post but I don't really care. Everything seems to flow so well that I don't need to chop it up and analyze each post.)
^That's also another point that seems townie about Gruffin, their posts follow a logical thought process that continues to develop as the game goes on. I'm not going to count this as a strong point because this is why I townread Chione last game and was wrong, but on top of the other townie things Gruffin is doing this reinforces my good impression at this point in the game.

PentaFlare said:
Her vote on 0x40 isn't explained at all, but this isn't the first time Gruffin has mentioned them. She actually tells Soren earlier (lost the post number) that she would be fine with an 0x40 lynch because she doesn't see any gamesolving from them. This is early on before the bulk of the train on 0x40 formed. Her read on 40 seems consistent with the pressure she has been putting on other players (like logic) to take stands and pressure their suspects with votes. I think this is a townlike vote despite the complete lack of explanation.

PentaFlare said:
Post #528
This is Gruffin's explanation for her vote on Sonata. I don't like this post all that much because it seems forced. Yes, Phraze joined Gruffin on that train and switched off without saying what they gained from the Sonata vote, but that just seems to be stating something that happened. For a more fleshed out idea of what can be learned from Phraze I would expect some mention of the circumstances of Phraze's vote on Lord_Sithis. This seems more like Gruffin wanted to have something to say for the vote on Sonata. Their current case on Phraze is more supported than what they have said here though so overall I am fine with it. Gruffin did end up looking into Phraze in more detail. Considering the other more townlike things Gruffin has done, I'm willing to let a forced post go because even town can force things unknowingly if they think they are on to something. The fact that Gruffin substantiated the read more makes it sit comfortably with me.

PentaFlare said:
So one wall of text later I'm definitely leaning towards a townread on Gruffin. Looking at everything she has said on its own shows a clear focus on pushing other people to pressure scum and a logical progression on her reads regarding other players, which focuses on analysis with concrete examples. The only points I still see as scummy are the forced post about the Sonata vote and her early comments which seem to exclude some things, but these aren't as strong tells as the clear town motivation I'm seeing.

Soren said:
As stated in my #925 I believe that the train on bursama had stalled because people didn't dislike him for being scummy anymore, but because of the way he was playing. And nothing was changing at that point, we were just going back and forth with bursama, telling him to play differently and actually do something, only for it to be met with the same "i got nothing to say, just lynch me" response. We fell into a circular rut and didn't really see any effort to get out of it. I think that's the bigger issue we had there than sonata hammering the lynch. We've gotta be constantly progressing the game otherwise we fall into a state where we walk in circles, town making mistakes or even worse, scum taking advantage of the situation.

Soren said:
At that point in the game I couldn't really see how bursama could be scum based on his behaviour. I had a short discussion with penta about this which you can see it all in #943. Penta held the opposite opinion which I could partly understand but also partly don't see it being the case. Scum giving up and claiming vanilla town when there were like only 3 votes on them, and proceeds to play with a silent voice so as to not give anything away that would give away associative tells for town to work with? Surely not. I didn't see this being the case because scum would only adopt such strategy if its their last resort, if its been assured that their lynch will be the one to go through, which was not the case. Not only that, if keeping silent to not give away any associative tells was their strategy why would they bother to continue repeating themselves instead of just disappearing from the thread. Arguably repeating themselves may just make themselves look worse but I didn't really see it that way, cause I didn't see it as scum giving up on the game.

Soren said:
Based on that, my opinion at that time was that bursama was town that just really didn't have any scum reads and much of any other thoughts. Which I could resonate with as me, myself, don't really have any scum reads either, hence my lack of posting in day 2.
What was interesting was how bur responded after my #904.

He responded with this. This simple question indicated to me that he was town. Why? Because it showed that he was still thinking about the game which, to me, revealed a townie mindset. He's ready to be lynched yet he still exhibited a curious mind which demonstrated that he still had his heart in the game, albeit a small amount. But was enough for me to not want to lynch him.
Having said that, I wasn't so confident, it was something small that I noticed and I wanted to push on it a bit more. Can I get him to show more curiosity that would strengthen this town read that I'm getting. This prompted my #912 where I pushed him a bit more to see how he'd respond.
Then his response in his #916 was lackluster and my thoughts began to backtrack. So I wasn't that confident about it anymore, and left me stunned for a bit on how to approach the game at that moment. But in the next moment sonata unvoted, penta vote and sonata hammered and day ended. And any plans that I could have come up with was thwarted.

Soren said:
I reveal this easily now, but maybe if I had been more transparent with my thoughts at that time, and expressed it at that time then maybe we could have prevented this myslynch.

Soren said:
That's the thing, if you make a wall post, people will read it, but they won't formulate a reply with the same effort you gave in your post.

I find bouncing ideas off each other then substantiating it more as it progresses to be more productive. That way people follow the read in a progressive manner while having an active discussion about it rather than having to take it all in at once from one big wall post.

Not to say that wall posting is bad though.

Soren said:
We gotta be careful to not immediately attribute anti-town behaviour as scum behaviour. As being anti-town doesn't equate being scum. This game has been a clear example of that.
But that's easier said that done.

Soren said:
the ones in your #198?
1. to answer that question i need to know why you want to post higher quality posts
2. trying to convince you that logic is town is pointless when i thought you were scum, only town needs a lecture to make them re-consider their reads
3. it being opportunistic doesnt mean you didnt have your reasons

logic340 said:
There are other instances of scummyness as well. Look at how they class Sonata as apathetic though we just got out of a game together (you were there too) where a town player (KOta) took the same exact stance D1. I would think this knowledge would be carried over as I have seen this behavior more from town than mafia since joining the MS on MAL. Another example of town taking this stance is the first two game I played with Astros. The apathetic over not wanting a D1 random lynch is more framing to go along with the Soren and Lucian comments.

I don't see how telling me I should have scum reads on page 3 is a townie mindset. I am going to have to ask you to explain this to me in greater detail.

I can actually say that this would be a great approach for someone who is suspected to take. It got you to give her a glowing town read and fits the mindset of mafia perfectly actually. Looking busy while putting thoughts that others can push into the mix. Also the votes with no support look very scummy and the after the fact way of answering in my opinion is another scummy move. Yeah the answers sound like what we want to hear but I would have liked to hear some support up front. It seems to easy since scum could also use the vote then explain tactic.

You say that Gruffin's post follow a logical though process but you also say this is something scum can do. I watched scum chione pull this off perfectly as I town read him for a majority of the game. This here for me actually works as a point against Gruffin knowing that we were all fooled by Chione this way.

The mentioned 40 thing doesn't sit well with me as we know someone laid the foundation for a mislynch. This post can be read as Gruffin had been sprinkling breadcrumbs for some time before finally moving over to 40. I don't see lack of explanation as a town like vote. Matter of fact a townie (myself) questioned everyone about their vote on town for not liking his game play. This vote in my opinion is not coming from a townie place and it wasn't even needed at that point. It looked scummy when it happened and your read on it hasn't convinced me in the least.

One wall text later I am still neutral with a scum lean. I would like to see more of a focus on catching scum than pressuring town to do things the way she see as town. I felt that you guys were bullying 40 over his playstyle which lead to a horrible lynch I don't see the town motive behind that. We all play differently, I have seen plenty of town scum hunt in many different ways. The forced reads are bad, the no support for votes is bad, the lack of support for their Bursama vote was bad considering all the support that Grape, Kit, and I had for ours. I am not seeing this townie mindset that you are.

Is there a specific reason you want us to see Gruffin as town to the point where you admittedly overlook the scumminess because of what you consider to be town like scum hunting?

Gruffin said:
I was pointing out that Sonata was apathetic because that can be scummy behaviour, not that it necessarily was. It was a quick note to keep in mind in case I saw further evidence that it was scummy apathy or townie apathy. Believe me, I learned my lesson from KOtA. The thing about Lucian and Penta being fixated on certain players was an oversight on my part, I rushed reading the thread again so I could participate

Gruffin said:
^^ This in itself isn't townie, no. But I explained why I went after you like that later on. Pretty much I was pressuring you with everything I could find, forcing the read and seeing how you would react so I could sort you early.

Gruffin said:
Yeahhh, I knew my D1 behavior was going to get the town focused on me, potentially wasting time and energy. I wanted to drop the secretive act and join that town-block you're trying to form to prevent this. The votes were not without reason, actually. I gave my opinion on Bursama in my readslist way before I voted and then continued to try to figure him out. The Sonata vote was a baiting attempt, so explaining it would have ruined its effectiveness.

Gruffin said:
I am not Chione, so I think using this as point against me is unfair.

Gruffin said:
Explaination for vote here. Do you think my early mention of 40 is what caused his lynch? I was giving my thoughts on the game, and that's what I saw from him at the time.

Gruffin said:
I'm trying to. I wasn't entirely convinced that Bursama was scum because of how self-defeatist he was, but it was really hard for me to tell if it was geniune or not. That's why I wanted to look at other players before we ended D2 in case we were wrong about him.

And I'd like to see the answer to that question, actually.

PentaFlare said:
@Soren I wish you had a chance to express what you did in #1012 before the lynch got hammered, but I guess that wasn't really possible with how it happened. I can see what you are saying with that question. It definitely seems townlike looking back but I dismissed it when it happened. I was probably biased by my own experience seeing as I have been in that same situation before (something like D5 in Harry Potter, nobody was willing to believe my redirecting virgin claim so I just gave up :P). It was the only experience I could think of with something similar so it just fit like that in my mind.

logic340 said:
There are other instances of scummyness as well. Look at how they class Sonata as apathetic though we just got out of a game together (you were there too) where a town player (KOta) took the same exact stance D1. I would think this knowledge would be carried over as I have seen this behavior more from town than mafia since joining the MS on MAL. Another example of town taking this stance is the first two game I played with Astros. The apathetic over not wanting a D1 random lynch is more framing to go along with the Soren and Lucian comments.

logic340 said:
I don't see how telling me I should have scum reads on page 3 is a townie mindset. I am going to have to ask you to explain this to me in greater detail.

PentaFlare said:
Going to break this up a bit.

Yes, it is true that Gruffin is calling Sonata apathetic and that apathy has a bad connotation, but I don't see this as framing because she provides support, notably the post where Sonata says "I vote for whoever, and then let it go". This isn't as related to being opposed to day 1 lynches but says more that Sonata really doesn't care who gets lynched. They are fine with town being lynched which is a scummy remark. I don't see this part as framing because the apathy implied by that comment is concerning.

logic340 said:
@aa-dono, @Grapefruit, @Gruffin, @Kit, @Lord_Sithis, @LucianRoy, @Oyasumi_Rosie, @PentaFlare, @Phraze, @Sonata (sure you can weigh in too), and @Soren,

PentaFlare said:

Town wants to find the scum. To catch scum, people need to be pressured. In this post, Gruffin was saying that you were taking the easy way out because you weren't expressing suspicion and pressuring people. Pressuring people will lead to catching scum so when someone wants to see people pressured that means they are trying to catch scum. Yeah, page 3 is a little early to have strong scumreads, but it doesn't mean you can't start pressuring people. That's how I see it. Gruffin wants pressure and that is why she is pressuring you and why she wants to see you pressure other people.

logic340 said:
As I have followed the entire conversation Sonata has fleshed out and explained what they meant by that comment multiple time to multiple players. I still see it as framing because she left out the fact that she just played with this type of player in a pervious game, which means she failed to mention that there is a townie side to apathy as well. This is why I see it as a frame because I myself try to give all the information so that others can verify what I am saying is fact. To leave out that very important detail seems to be pushing things in a certain directions.

Here is an example from my own posting. I was doing a case on rosie started off as a scum read and by the end of it I find myself reaching to make rosie look scum, but due to this fact I notice Gruffin looking scummy which aa-dono picked up on and asked me about saying the rosie read felt like a scumread on Gruffin. I was focused on rosie but as aa-dono read it Gruffin came through in that post. I wasn't trying to push Gruffin but that is what was taken from all the information. So Gruffin is trying to push Sonata had they said that KOta just played like that in the previous game and town how do you think people view her read and vote with just that little added information? Leaving out something that doesn't fit the narrative is the definition of scummy for me.

Do you think that scum would blatantly say they aren't worried about lynching town? Have you ever seen that in your mafia career? If not why infer that this is the first time it is happening in regards to Sonata?

PentaFlare said:

Give me time on this one. I can't see Sonata as anything but scum after manipulating me like that, but there is probably some emotional bias in there. I need some time to be able to step back and look at it more objectively.

logic340 said:
Um I think that Sonata was doing that thought they are not for D1 lynches they put pressure on me by making my train 3 votes strong. I can see scum doing this to get town credit and have seem it Crossbell in CCL. Matter of fact the way Gruffin came at me was so reminiscent of CCL Gruffin and Crossbell that I made not of it before I even voted for her. In that game I was also hounded by Gruffin and Crossbell for taking the easy way out. Knowing me over the course of these two games and Gruffin knows me from like 3. I don't start very quickly but when I get started it's hard for me to stop. The fact that I was picked when they knew I was trying to change things up is why I said they took the safe route rather than pressure one of the other 14 players she decided to go for someone she would be able to sort easily enough. I've never been a hard read for Gruffin and this game hasn't proven to be any different.

logic340 said:
When have you ever seen scum flaunt that type of behavior before? It could be scum behavior but is it? You don't make mention of seeing the town mindset which I have given examples of.

I still don't know how I feel about that. I can see that coming form both mindsets. Still hoping it's town as you are an asset as town

Honestly if you are town I wouldn't see it as a waste of time or energy as it made people discuss not only me but your behavior as well. This is what we want and is actually a point in your favor. The thing is scum would know you are town but they would eventually have to chime in if you kept your secret a little bit longer (if you are town).

I don't think it's unfair at all, tactics are tactics. I got a feeling that we were doing KOta all over again with x40 and that was right so I am going to use my previous game experience to my advantage whenever I can. So it's not really a point against you but for me the logical progression can't be a point for you either due to mafia already using it against me.

A lot of different misinformation caused that lynch but most notable to me is behavior that people didn't like. I really feel like he was kind of bullied for not playing the way people wanted him to. I laid out the town mindset no one wanted to hear it. So I with that being said I can say those little breadcrumbs potentially did more damage, though I cannot point to them as the reason. It allowed you to move to that train with no worries.

Yeah I was wavering there at the end too. Sadly I got a call walked away from the computer without doing anything and when I came back the lynch was set. I definitely feel that we need to sort out Sonata and Penta with what happened there. I was going to start looking elsewhere too but time got cut short. All our cases were wrong....I just wish I had more information on how serious yours was doesn't look too serious so honestly can't hold it too much against you Gruffin.

logic340 said:
I can actually say that this would be a great approach for someone who is suspected to take. It got you to give her a glowing town read and fits the mindset of mafia perfectly actually. Looking busy while putting thoughts that others can push into the mix. Also the votes with no support look very scummy and the after the fact way of answering in my opinion is another scummy move. Yeah the answers sound like what we want to hear but I would have liked to hear some support up front. It seems to easy since scum could also use the vote then explain tactic.

logic340 said:
Can you give examples of where Lucian contradicted himself please?

PentaFlare said:
Also, I'm still a little frustrated that I put so much effort in writing this post about Gruffin and the other people who listed Gruffin as a suspect of theirs haven't commented on it. Does everyone just agree with my conclusion? That's the impression I'm getting if nobody else thinks the topic needs more discussion.

logic340 said:
@aa-dono, @Grapefruit, @Gruffin, @Kit, @Lord_Sithis, @LucianRoy, @Oyasumi_Rosie, @PentaFlare, @Phraze, @Sonata (sure you can weigh in too), and @Soren,

logic340 said:
As I have followed the entire conversation Sonata has fleshed out and explained what they meant by that comment multiple time to multiple players. I still see it as framing because she left out the fact that she just played with this type of player in a pervious game, which means she failed to mention that there is a townie side to apathy as well. This is why I see it as a frame because I myself try to give all the information so that others can verify what I am saying is fact. To leave out that very important detail seems to be pushing things in a certain directions.

Here is an example from my own posting. I was doing a case on rosie started off as a scum read and by the end of it I find myself reaching to make rosie look scum, but due to this fact I notice Gruffin looking scummy which aa-dono picked up on and asked me about saying the rosie read felt like a scumread on Gruffin. I was focused on rosie but as aa-dono read it Gruffin came through in that post. I wasn't trying to push Gruffin but that is what was taken from all the information. So Gruffin is trying to push Sonata had they said that KOta just played like that in the previous game and town how do you think people view her read and vote with just that little added information? Leaving out something that doesn't fit the narrative is the definition of scummy for me.

Do you think that scum would blatantly say they aren't worried about lynching town? Have you ever seen that in your mafia career? If not why infer that this is the first time it is happening in regards to Sonata?

PentaFlare said:
Off-topic, but has Crossbell finally had a scum game?

Kit said:
Does anyone else have a weird suspicion that Penta and Sonata were working together on that hammer? It was just too convenient and happened too fast. Penta had expressed wanting to hammer earlier. Maybe they discussed it in scum chat and decided Sonata was more likely to get away with it than Penta. #crazytheory

Gruffin said:
On the current Sonata situation, I'm going to need some more time to work that out. If she is overzealous town, lynching her over a mistake wouldn't be the best move. If sacrificial scum, I'm wondering what sort of gain the scumteam would have gotten from sacrificing a member?

Kit said:
Does anyone else have a weird suspicion that Penta and Sonata were working together on that hammer? It was just too convenient and happened too fast. Penta had expressed wanting to hammer earlier. Maybe they discussed it in scum chat and decided Sonata was more likely to get away with it than Penta. #crazytheory