Basic Mafia v4: Haruhi Suzumiya Mafia | Game Over - Mafia and Third Party Win

Grapefruit21 said:
So I"m going to come out swinging and then vanish till I get to work, hoping it's quiet because I have lot's of thoughts right now and lot's of paranoid reads

First thing is first though Vote: Bursama

In my notes from night phase I listing reasons for various NK's and for Mishu that it could be to set up a chain mislynch on me given my position on the wagon and that mishu had seeded the idea one of x40 and me could be maf.

Then it happened and Bursama immeadiately jumped on the idea that I could be scum for the NK (which makes no sense from my POV as it puts suspicion on to myself), and says this piece of nonsense:

"A good explanation would be that mafia tried to push that wagon, but felt that it really didn't get that much support and decided to NK Mishu since they probably though they couldn't manage to lynch him in the upcoming days.
(This is a also a point in favour of Grape being mafia)"

There is no world where that is a point in favor of one of us (sithis and myself) over each other. Like absolutely none and I'd love you see you explain it Bursama.

Now obviously this read is OMGUS but I did have it prepped and ready to go as I felt strongly that town was going to target an active scum leaning player and not a lurker (we need to actively hit scum today after all, can't afford a random policy lynch at this point) and felt I might be a target as I have been read as scummy at various points. BUt I'm not scum and have been hunting scum and combined with Logic's pbpa I feel like I've found one.

So @Bursama why is that quote point to me over sithis?
Maf would have lot's of reasons and sowing discord and fear is a great reason if the wagon was townie. So give me a reads on x40's wagon and some scum hunting which you have been lacking so far. More likely to find mafia there than on a nowhere wagon with two living people.

PentaFlare said:

If it helps to see what I was thinking, posturing the scumread on you when there wasn't really anything there was more to see how Gruffin would react. I'm still try be to figure Gruffin out.

Kit said:
I feel like I've explained this so many times already but 40 didn't seem like he was playing the game, while Rosie did. Rosie didn't fully explain reads but 40 didn't explain anything besides defending himself. Of course I find game-solving behavior to be townie and apathetic behavior to be scummy.

Kit said:
@logic340 I agree with this post from Gruffin, I honestly wasn't even considering lynching Rosie since she had said so little that if she turned out town, her lynch really wouldn't help us as much as a 40 flip would, even if 40 was town as well. I might have considered lynching bursama if anyone had a good case against him at the time, but no one did. Opposing train was Mishu and I believed Mishu was town, more than 40 at least.

logic340 said:
@Gruffin I feel like we could have gotten a lot of information and possible scum off a rosie flip. I am neutral not town reading her. You know I don't like lynching town for information especially when so many park there on the easy target instead of continuing the hunt (Which is what he was lynched for not doing). Let's say rosie had flipped town our train becomes the new suspect lead and we get all the information on the people who tried to save her. Either way there is plenty of information to go around. But is here nor there now you have proving to do today after D1. @Kit I want to ask you what makes Rosie's time at the EoD more relevant than the time 40 put into the early going? Also I didn't only ask you guys to vote rosie I also asked you all to look at bursama which no one wanted to make mention of until start of today.

Grapefruit21 said:
Posting about a NK speculating that both players on the train are scum without providing any reasoning is not a pro town attitude. It's mudslinging and casting doubt our on alignment and laying ground work for a train to form, with no reasoning provided.

Not pro town.

Combined with logics points about behavior yesterday about their role in the x40 mislynch instigating the mudslinging debate that led to the mislynch without jumping on that train early is a pattern and one I don't like.

Grapefruit21 said:
Without voting yesterday they played a key role in instigating the x40 mislynch. Then used things that aren't traditional scum hunting, NK guessing and speculation, to try to start building a new case today. That's not bad logic, that's bad town play.

Gruffin said:
Aa-dono - As neutral as it gets. And oh geez, she’s pulling a TGT Ruu by not giving townreads. Calls Grape out on shading in 269, but I remember her saying that shading is tactic she likes to use to form reads in other games. Correct me if I’m wrong?

Gruffin said:
I can't. ;-; Interaction analysis is more for scum flips or at least it is the way I do it, so I'm pretty useless in that regard until we catch at least one scum.

Lord_Sithis said:
They helped town a lot. They were one of the most active players, always asking questions, always giving reads, always had a strategy. Huge asset to town.

Gruffin said:
Yeah, I get where you were coming from with it, I think it was a difference in reads is all. I'm a little concerned with how quickly everyone was on board the Bursama train. What do you make of it?

logic340 said:
I'm not too concerned about it's formation because I want to sort out Bursama early today and it seems others had the same idea. What I will be interested in is how it is taken apart if it come to that. I find it interesting that four of us came to the same conclusion but the two I don't trust happen to be you and kit this time. We need some town unity so maybe this is the start of that.

LucianRoy said:

Bursama tries NKA. What's your analysis of it?

LucianRoy said:
@gruffin I changed my mind.
Don't wanna use too much data, but yeah, might talk about this later.

Bursama said:


I actually, this might be point in favour of Sithis being mafia.

logic340 said:
I feel like I can answer you both right here. @Gruffin I feel like we could have gotten a lot of information and possible scum off a rosie flip. I am neutral not town reading her. You know I don't like lynching town for information especially when so many park there on the easy target instead of continuing the hunt (Which is what he was lynched for not doing). Let's say rosie had flipped town our train becomes the new suspect lead and we get all the information on the people who tried to save her. Either way there is plenty of information to go around. But is here nor there now you have proving to do today after D1. @Kit I want to ask you what makes Rosie's time at the EoD more relevant than the time 40 put into the early going? Also I didn't only ask you guys to vote rosie I also asked you all to look at bursama which no one wanted to make mention of until start of today.

Bursama said:


Mishu had 2nd most votes at the end of D1 and was the competing wagon for D1. If everyone on that wagon was town (Grape and Sithis), why would mafia NK Mishu? Mafia could've tried to push that wagon D2 and gain a mislynch.

A good explanation would be that mafia tried to push that wagon, but felt that it really didn't get that much support and decided to NK Mishu since they probably though they couldn't manage to lynch him in the upcoming days.
(This is a also a point in favour of Grape being mafia)

There was also something else in my mind a moment ago, but I forgot it. >_>

aa-dono said:
Stalling, I heard, is a classic scum Lucian.

logic340 said:
Fair enough I am going to have to take some time between game to educate myself in the art of VCA and Interaction Analysis.

What else you got for us today? Early suspects for D2? Anyone you would like to pressure?

@PentaFlare you basically asked me for #644 did you read it? Any thoughts or comments?

LucianRoy said:

Oh yeah, I gotta do that I guess.

Also, meta changes.

Also, I have no scum or town tells I'm aware of.

Also, the person who told you that was probably evil.

Also, who tf told you that?

logic340 said:
@PentaFlare here is what you asked for.

rosielovesanime:



My Thoughts on specific posts
#211 - The vote on Grapefruit seems pretty bogus they claim RVS but state that they are caught up (Vote happens on page 5 where they say they have read up to). Later the reason revealed it what Grapefruit said in their first post (joke about kit being a nice guy) hasn't sat well with them and they haven't shaken the feeling.
#217 - Self doubt, I can say I am not really liking that but it is not alignment indicative.
#300 - In this post they say that they see why people don't trust me but don't really explain why that is. They go on to say they don't think I am scum but again no reasons to support that statement. They can see why people don't trust me but I am not scum??? this is kind of a contradiction. Gruffin town at least says why they feel that way, no reason for the read on though. The comment to Sonata about not being able to act scum if they tried strikes me as odd since you don't have to act scum if you are scum. In the end I don't really think her answer really answers what I asked.
#369 -The unvote is weird to me considering they had already postured to have their lynch on 40.
#413 - I don't know if I remember this post at the time of their vote on _0x40_ or not but in hindsight this doesn't look good to me at all.
#432 - Here is their vote for 40 it is 19 post later with nothing new to add themselves in between. (This is in reference to #413) I don't feel they did what they said they would try to do before placing that vote. Sithis calls it a sheep later on and I tend to agree with that sentiment. They didn't add their own thought or even rehash what others had said just vote 40 for weak defense against kit and kept it pushing. I spoke out against this vote, Sithis calls it a sheep, and Bursama who voted 40 calls it awkward.
#516 - This is a pretty hard defense of rosie by Gruffin imo. Then they contradict themselves by giving rosie a pass until D2 while saying 40 needed to contribute more. I have to think about this right here. Scum team protecting each other?? Gruffin looks pretty bad for this imo.
#522 - No reason or examples for the town or scum reads. Even backs off the town read saying neutral better if scum (??). We are not better for the game if scum we should be killed.
#567 - More weak reasoning to lynch 40

All in all there is a lot of defense here for rosie who was never really in danger of being lynched today. I was the only on pushing that and my vote was there. I wish that Sonata and Sithis would have moved there with me as it would probably make me feel better about both of them. Basically I feel their reasons for voting 40 was a contradiction due to their own behavior being very similar, unlike Kit and Gruffin I don't feel that rosie's reads and vote added that as much as the interaction that 40 was a part of. I feel like rosie did things to appease Kit and Gruffin's idea of what scum hunting is. Other than not liking 40's defense against Kit she basically refused to give her own opinion on the situation. I don't feel she answered my questions about mine, Gruffin, Lucina, Grapefruit, and 40's alignments in a satisfactory manner and other than those 4 I really cannot say how she feel about the other 10 reaming players.

I had plenty of time to read this over and I can honestly say my scumread on Rosie feels forced. When I look at what I have written in regards to rosie I can see a lost townie not knowing how to make there voice heard. Not going to fully town read them but neutral is fine.

This is not indicative of rosie's alignment so much but I find it interesting that while 40 is getting lynched for not giving reads, rosie is getting a pass for refusing to give reasons for the reads she has give. This makes Kit and Gruffin look more scummy to me than rosie.

PentaFlare said:

You have one tell. If you aren't making jokes, then someone probably kidnapped you and is playing on your behalf. It is a "is this really Lucian playing" tell.

aa-dono said:
Analyzing comes later when I've read everything.

logic340 said:
Honestly I feel like everyone who was on the 40 train need to take a good look a their neighbor and see where the scum is. Why was the 40 lynch so easy? Who put the though out there and let it manifest. What did the train form in opposition to aren't these the questions that should be being asked? Didn't I ask some of these yesterday. I made mention of no one saving 40 outside of Lucian and I. Again I know that losing town can seem inevitable but we still need to keep searching. I feel like 6 people took the easy way out instead of doing their due diligence in securing a proper lynch. @Kit Look at me EoD. How many EoD's do we have to have like this together before I get you to listen to me?

aa-dono said:
The general summary I have from this post is..
"Gruffin feels scum to me."

It seems like you have some sort of a scumread on Gruffin and you're painting her scum from interaction with others you deemed scum without a flip. Odd considering you're chasing after someone else when your eyes is on someone else.

Not sure if this is something you did without thinking, or if it comes from scum mindset trying to frame Gruffin.

Oh, my stance at this moment is - Gruffin is likely town. This is just based on the general feel of her posts. Analyzing comes later when I've read everything.

LucianRoy said:

What if they were absurdly accurate with their D1 reads?
Would you be scared of them then?

LucianRoy said:

Oh yeah, I gotta do that I guess.

Also, meta changes.

Also, I have no scum or town tells I'm aware of.

Also, the person who told you that was probably evil.

Also, who tf told you that?

aa-dono said:
Alice and Jack. Uh-oh. they're evil? Tsk tsk tsk

Grapefruit21 said:
@Gruffin to me the scum mindset (which I'm seeing) is to plant seeds for others to latch onto and run with so that you aren't driving the wagon and in the spotlight. The recurring lack of a vote is what stands out to me. As a town player you don't mind putting your vote behind your suspicions (Lucian and my convo day1 that led to me placing my vote on him) to start a wagon and build pressure. Scum doesn't want wagons to be tracked back to them, so waiting on it to gain momentum let's them hide their vote a bit.

If Bursama had added much to the x40 case when they did eventually vote I wouldn't find this as suspicious. But they didn't, just jumped onto the train saying:

"Oh well.

Vote: _0x40_

I feel like this is the best option we have today, and even if he flips town, there's plenty of interactions."

Scum.

LucianRoy said:

I've HEARD, from some VERY RELIABLE SOURCES, that Dono stalling is CLASSIC SCUM DONO!!!

>no vote.

aa-dono said:
The general summary I have from this post is..
"Gruffin feels scum to me."

It seems like you have some sort of a scumread on Gruffin and you're painting her scum from interaction with others you deemed scum without a flip. Odd considering you're chasing after someone else when your eyes is on someone else.

Not sure if this is something you did without thinking, or if it comes from scum mindset trying to frame Gruffin.

Oh, my stance at this moment is - Gruffin is likely town. This is just based on the general feel of her posts. Analyzing comes later when I've read everything.

aa-dono said:
Wow, offensive defense. Triggered by something?

aa-dono said:
There's a possibility, you guys caught scum and the buddies are trying to get you off a scum train.

LucianRoy said:

You betcha. I am TRIGGERED.

rosielovesanime said:


Wasnt Kit leading the train on D1 again 40? It was his post that Soren agreed in the first place.

LucianRoy said:

Did I hear some pre-flip associatives?
Or was that the wind?

aa-dono said:
Scum, did you reply to me asking you about your reads in Day 1? I remember you saved it for later but I can't remember if I read any of that later.

LucianRoy said:

Yeah, I replied to it, but I didn't tag your name. Sorry.
https://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1580282&show=300#msg49148740
I basically said I dodged the question b/c I was thinking and couldn't decide on a real answer. I thought you were implying "why is grapefruit your largest scumlean" so I just gave my thoughts on why he wasn't that in the reply to your previous question.

LucianRoy said:
I dodged b/c thinking.
Will respond to grapes pbpa maybe.

Gruffin said:
I hope so. Really what I want out of this right now is to be able to understand Bursama better. I think we can use this train on him to our advantage.

What do you think of Grapefruit's reasoning for voting Bursama?

PentaFlare said:

Yup. I read it a few times. I gave it a little time to sink in since it was a lot of information in a single post. You seem to be mostly pointing out scummy things but then saying you will keep rosie at neutral because you think you might be forcing it too much. I get that. However, if you don't think you can apply the same approach to sorting rosie as you can to sorting other players, how would you go about determining if rosie is town should that be the case?

I'm not very good at reading players playing their first game. The only tell I'm confident using with them is TMI.