Dyson Sphere?

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cannot blame the japanese critics since this show has a lot of recycled concepts from the gundam series, its about a war of 2 super powerful groups and 1 neutral group, some kids are stealing powerful robot/s on the nuetral group and then an innocent/ignorant kid that is superhuman becomes a pilot of one of the powerful robots to fight against the stolen robots and as well as ending the war since it causes so much suffering, that pretty much sums up the ideas of gundam seed and the original gundam (so i heard)

anime should break the usual formula on making a show usually the ingredients are
- kids as main characters
- school setting
- moe/cute/ecchi/fanservice
- pathetic main hero while awesome villains and good supporting characters
- and more that i cannot think of at the moment

now i can understand why they are still using schools as setting for a super advance future with a Dyson Sphere since its part of the usual anime formula

degApr 17, 2013 10:15 PM

Apr 20, 2013 8:20 AM

#53

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Oct 2012

6648

I don't see the issue people are having here. Obviously the people in this series have figured out how to create a self-sustaining fusion reactions, that for safety reasons, are put into space. They have then adapted the term "Dyson Shell" because their space colonies work exactly the same way (the enclose a power source in order to capture all its energy).

If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. This wouldn't be the first time a scientific term has been co-adapted by something similar.

As for the weapons, guns are useful. They are chemically powered and use projectiles that would make them harder to shield against than mere energy weapons.

Symbv, this show does sort of relate to our prior conversation about "space opera". Again, there are shows out there, and there are people who watch them, the trouble is that the shows being made are not classics, they are average at best. This gets back to what I said about talent. If you were to list the great space operas in animation history, you would get down to 5 or 6 writers who created them all. It is extremely hard to create sweeping epics, whether SF or Fantasy, or whatever. They would also be relatively risky to invest in unless you knew you had a winner (notice that there are view 26 episode series anymore, let alone 52).

If we want an increase in Space Operas then we need this show to succeed. Someone put down a ton of money to make a 26 episode season. Failure here would make producers more risk adverse to spending money on them.

Apr 20, 2013 8:35 AM

#54

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Takuan_Soho said:
Symbv, this show does sort of relate to our prior conversation about "space opera". Again, there are shows out there, and there are people who watch them, the trouble is that the shows being made are not classics, they are average at best. This gets back to what I said about talent. If you were to list the great space operas in animation history, you would get down to 5 or 6 writers who created them all. It is extremely hard to create sweeping epics, whether SF or Fantasy, or whatever. They would also be relatively risky to invest in unless you knew you had a winner (notice that there are view 26 episode series anymore, let alone 52).

If you HAVE TO bring the topic back, ok then let's have another round of debate here.

Earlier I already said that this season has three space-opera shows and this raised a lot of eyebrows among fans in Japan because, as I also said earlier, there was NO space opera shows the last season or the season before (contrary to what you said that there is always some space opera mecha show each season). And then we have to go all the way back to Rinne no Langrange. And this is what I said earlier, that this genre does not have the same popularity as in the past. If you look at the kids show, the lack of giant robot and space faring show is as obvious. Your argument about writers of space opera is not too convincing because you put way too much stress on the need for some genius to write space opera. I am sure if the genre is popular there will be a lot of writers who write about it, just like the many writers who write romcom LNs. Besides, there is no lack of scifi writers in Japan (writing proper scifi novels) so it is hard to argument that the shortage of shows of this particular genre must have to do with some special requirement for writers. At most lack of good talent may reduce the number of groundbreaking shows but we should still see such shows being produced if it is still popular.

On the other hand, one thing that I would agree with you is that the popularity (or put in other words, the appetite) for longer series that stays for 2 cour or more is also not as high as in the past. And this again goes back to the socio-economic trend (not cycle) that I mentioned earlier.

symbvApr 20, 2013 8:53 AM

So MAL finally starts locking news threads that are only a few weeks old?

I wonder where was the announcement of this change? Or we are seeing yet another case of changes made that impacted users but not communicated to them?

I wonder how long people would put up with this.

As much as I have a bunch of information to share about anime announced recently I cannot share it in news board, and the anime series is too disorganized and chaotic to share information except with people already interested in the particular series.

Apr 20, 2013 9:54 AM

#55

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Oct 2012

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symbv said:
If you HAVE TO bring the topic back, ok then let's have another round of debate here.

You have known me for 6 months now, of course you know I HAVE to bring it back up! Not sure if it is genetic or upbringing, but it's something.

I had a longer post that I lost (damn cookie issue), but I think I can boil it down to a few sentences.

1) The reduction of space operas is not due to changing tastes, but to the success of animation and the subsequent increase in size of the animation studios.

2) As corporations increase in size they lose diversity and become risk adverse. They also tend to be more dominated by corporate types, not passionate film-makes.

2a) Being risk adverse, corporations will focus more on the animations that are the cheapest to make: romcoms, harems, and drama. Science Fiction, generally speaking, being the most expensive to animate will decrease in frequency because of this factor.

2b) Being dominated by corporate types, they will have a decreasing respect for their audience, which means that the more complicated an animation is, the less likely the studios will make it. Science Fiction again is more complicated than a Romcom (you have to create a good alternative world as well as having compelling characters), as such it will decrease in frequency as result of this trend.

3) Furthermore, because the executives are not fans, they will not have a good idea of what good science fiction is, so they will tend to okay projects that other studios have done. So even within the reduced number of science fiction series, you will have a reduction in diversity.

All of these leads to a reduction in science fiction without any reference to changes in consumer tastes. And on top of this "Sturgeon's Observation" that 90% of everything is crap, and this means that with a smaller number of shows, the odds of having a break out hit any given year decreases, translating to longer of period of times between these hits.

Furthermore several of the strongest franchises are in science fiction (Gundam and Macross), so these negatively impact the genre in two ways. 1) Executives attribute their success to the franchise, not the genre, and 2) they garner overwhelming media attention when they are viewing, which pushes other SF titles further into the shade. Both of these will further cause studio executives to reduce their focus on Science Fiction.

On top of this, what is made has been, for the past decade pretty bad stuff. I liked Rinne, but it was certainly no classic. Another Space Opera you overlooked was Moretsu Pirates, which was again not very good. But both were 26 episode series, which is a heavy commitment for a studio. The failure of these shows will further reduce the zeal of studios to invest in science fiction. Until there is another break out hit (which requires a great talent), this will be the trend. Again, nothing to do with audiences, all having to do with corporate cycles (you see the same thing in Hollywood movies).

If you want to prove it is a change in taste, then what shows do you think were undeservedly overlooked? I love science fiction, but I can't think of any off the top of my head this last decade which deserved to be successful. That is why I am really hoping that one of these 3 shows is actually very good, because if not, then resign yourself to cheap romcoms, harems, dramas, and bad derivative SF, for the foreseeable future regardless of what the audience wants.

Apr 22, 2013 4:01 AM

#56

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Sep 2012

10121

Takuan_Toho,

So you just want to carry the debate from place to place, no matter how OFF-TOPIC it is in the thread. I will go along with you for now, but if you keep up this strategy, I may have to report this to a mods at some point. Just bear this in mind please.

> The reduction of space operas is not due to changing tastes, but to the success of animation and the subsequent increase in size of the animation studios.

Success of what animation? If there are fewer works in a genre, it is natural to say it is due to changing taste, unless you can prove it is not the case. As for the size of studios, in fact the studios which made anime these days are often said to be smaller, not bigger than those from the days of 70s or 80s.

> As corporations increase in size they lose diversity and become risk adverse. They also tend to be more dominated by corporate types, not passionate film-makes.

This is a false premise. Studio like KyoAni, Shaft are never large. And it is odd to argue that a larger corporation always mean less diversity - one would think that a bigger company will want to dip their hands to more things not fewer, particularly if the corporate types may look more at what succeeded in the past (like space opera). If they became risk averse about a genre, it can be said that they just don't see the genre can make money (and probably because it is no longer so popular)

> Being risk adverse, corporations will focus more on the animations that are the cheapest to make: romcoms, harems, and drama.

You are buying into another false premise, often used by those "good old days" moe-hating fans who claimed that space opera and mecha cost more to make, without any proof to show for it. As far as I know, the cost of an anime does not always bear relationship to its genre. If mecha needs sakuga, character needs it too. And even in the past we have seen quite many examples of bad sakuga for mecha action, but since the genre was popular in those days, they got made anyway.

> Furthermore, because the executives are not fans, they will not have a good idea of what good science fiction is, so they will tend to okay projects that other studios have done. So even within the reduced number of science fiction series, you will have a reduction in diversity.

So the executives are fans of harem? They are fans of money, that's who they are. So if a genre is popular and can mint money they go for it even if they are not fans. And given they grew up watching space opera and giant mecha anime, it is hard to imagine that they are not many fans of this genre in the first place.

> And on top of this "Sturgeon's Observation" that 90% of everything is crap,

I don't know how serious you mean for this observation but if you are serious, then I question why you become an anime fan in the first place unless you just enjoy watching crap and shit (perhaps to laugh at it) all the time (not my preference, and in my opinion, most of the anime aired these days are NOT crap).

> If you want to prove it is a change in taste, then what shows do you think were undeservedly overlooked?

It is more like you have to prove that fewer shows of a genre is not a change of taste. Those unique requirements of a giant robot space opera show you mentioned are more like what you think things are but not how it is really is. There is nothing really more costly or in need of great writers for a giant robot show. If the popularity is there, I am sure the merchandise sponsors would love to sponsor a few shows to help them sell models they can make, just like the old days. Instead of spinning intricate theory of why there are fewer such shows, the simplest explanation is that they no longer do this because it is no longer that popular, and they keep throwing resource to sponsor things like mahou shoujo shows or shounen fight shows because they are still popular.

The only things that I can agree with your whole post are: 1) Rebooting franchises is easier and safer to do, but this can go along with the notion of reduced popularity: Not popular any more, so just go back to reboot franchise and don't bother with coming up with new works. 2) Shorter length of series is a fact and this may or may not be a factor in the reduction of space opera / giant robot genre. The reason why this may not be the key factor is the fact that kids shows still have long series length, but still we do not see much of space opera / giant robot shows in this category. Even a reboot of the Gundam franchise resulted in disastrous rating and merchandise / DVD sales.

> That is why I am really hoping that one of these 3 shows is actually very good, because if not, then resign yourself to cheap romcoms, harems, dramas, and bad derivative SF, for the foreseeable future regardless of what the audience wants.

Here your prejudice that romcoms, harems, dramas are CHEAP shows. I do not see anything that makes a space opera show hold a more exalted position among other genres. At the end how expensive it is made depends on how the animation gets done, and even for simple laid-back slice-of-life shows, it can still take a lot of effort (and thus resource and money) to make -- I still remember reading animators talking about how many cuts and frames were used just to make sure an animation of shifting hair of a character looks visually attractive.

symbvApr 22, 2013 4:11 AM

Apr 22, 2013 11:19 AM

#57

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I am just going to point out a comprehension problem you had and end this debate:

symbv said:
Here your prejudice that romcoms, harems, dramas are CHEAP shows. I do not see anything that makes a space opera show hold a more exalted position among other genres.

Never said that romcoms, harems, dramas were cheap shows, I personally watch and enjoy quite a few of them myself, I said that they were cheap to make. My entire argument was economic, not taste (the only time I brought taste up was with Studio Executives). You have this unpleasant habit of projecting what you believe others think onto anyone who doesn't agree with you. You may want to address that.

As for your threat (and threat it was). Two words: screw you. I have always treated you with respect and courtesy, that was beneath you. If I was "off topic" you could have always said, "hey lets stop this" and of course I would have. You were the one who invited me for another round, and I love to have debates, I even started my post off making a self-effacing joke about this. So to threaten me after I respond is a grade school scummy thing to do.

I don't hold grudges, so I will forget that after I post this, but seriously dude look in a mirror. I at least know that I can be a bore and ramble, a little self-awareness would do wonders for you.

Apr 22, 2013 1:24 PM

#58

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10121

Takuan_Soho said:
Never said that romcoms, harems, dramas were cheap shows, I personally watch and enjoy quite a few of them myself, I said that they were cheap to make. My entire argument was economic, not taste (the only time I brought taste up was with Studio Executives). You have this unpleasant habit of projecting what you believe others think onto anyone who doesn't agree with you. You may want to address that.

I know you mean cheap as in cheap in cost, not cheap in taste. I don't know why you got the idea that I meant cheap in taste in my post. As I said later, romcoms do not cost less to make than space opera mecha and it is a prejudice to think that this is the case.

Takuan_Soho said:
As for your threat (and threat it was). Two words: screw you. I have always treated you with respect and courtesy, that was beneath you. If I was "off topic" you could have always said, "hey lets stop this" and of course I would have. You were the one who invited me for another round, and I love to have debates, I even started my post off making a self-effacing joke about this. So to threaten me after I respond is a grade school scummy thing to do.

I don't know how you thought that I "invited you for another round" to talk about popularity of space opera genre in this Dyson Sphere thread. I never invited you to start talking about space opera anime in this thread, so this round in this thread was started by you without my invitation. While I do not mind going off-topic for a while in a thread to debate concrete things about anime in general, taking a debate from one title to another title is way too much. And while in the previous thread it still bears some relationship to the topic, here it has really no bearing with the topic at all. You can say I really dislike such "carry the debate wherever I go and post" behavior and I could have picked an approach to express my dislike inappropriately - I tried to make my displeasure clear when I posted my first reply and only took a harsher stance when I saw that it did not have any effect, and for that I would apologize.

symbvApr 22, 2013 1:42 PM

Apr 22, 2013 4:48 PM

#59

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symbv said:
I don't know how you thought that I "invited you for another round" to talk about popularity of space opera genre in this Dyson Sphere thread.

You wrote: If you HAVE TO bring the topic back, ok then let's have another round of debate here.

If that is not an invitation, what the hell is?

Apr 22, 2013 8:36 PM

#60

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Takuan_Soho said:
You wrote: If you HAVE TO bring the topic back, ok then let's have another round of debate here.
If that is not an invitation, what the hell is?

"I could have picked an approach to express my dislike inappropriately - I tried to make my displeasure clear when I posted my first reply" and that was my first reply. I can see why you failed to sense my displeasure - I thought the capitalized "HAVE TO" made it clear that I was feeling exasperated and did not want to have another debate here and what I said about "having another round of debate" is not what I really wanted. As I said, I picked an approach that did not express my feeling appropriately; I could have made it much clearer and I didn't, and for that I apologized.

Apr 23, 2013 11:45 PM

#61

Irenesharda

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Feb 2013

587

One blog I was reading mentions that it's interesting that in this world they have created "Dyson Spheres" and cell phones with literally unlimited coverage.

And yet, they haven't fixed the problem of cell phone loosing their battery life?

Apr 24, 2013 1:06 AM

#62

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Irenesharda said:
One blog I was reading mentions that it's interesting that in this world they have created "Dyson Spheres" and cell phones with literally unlimited coverage.

And yet, they haven't fixed the problem of cell phone loosing their battery life?

LOL yep thats another science fiction error in Valvrave world

well i gave up on criticizing the science fiction parts of this show as said by another forumer its not hardcore science fiction stuff anyway so they got an excuse right there

Apr 26, 2013 1:55 PM

#63

ThangLong

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Dec 2012

3019

Whoa, did I just miss a lively discussion or what?! I think Valvrave's writers call this construct a Dyson Sphere (I don't see it cover the entire Sun) is like Urobuchi write some gibberish scientific words for Led and Chamber in Gargantia. Those words are just that: 'gibberish' to add more color to a science fiction.

Apr 26, 2013 2:16 PM

#64

BatoKusanagi

Laughing Man

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Jun 2012

6696

Simon avatar. How did you watch TTGL is this bothers you so much?

Apr 26, 2013 3:46 PM

#65

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92454

BatoKusanagi said:
Simon avatar. How did you watch TTGL is this bothers you so much?

Gurren Lagann never made itself a serious science fiction and from what i read on blogs and reviews Gurren Lagann also manages a great science fiction story without redefining those science fiction concepts unlike this show

think about it, Valvrave world has Dyson Sphere that is a very advance technology on science fiction and yet they are living on old technology like cellphones that run out of battery or that they are still using schools for learning or using guns instead of laser guns, you can read more about it in the past pages of this thread there are people who defended it but its still hard to take considering its a Dyson Sphere technology

Apr 29, 2013 11:21 AM

#66

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j0x said:
think about it, Valvrave world has Dyson Sphere that is a very advance technology on science fiction and yet they are living on old technology like cellphones that run out of battery or that they are still using schools for learning or using guns instead of laser guns, you can read more about it in the past pages of this thread there are people who defended it but its still hard to take considering its a Dyson Sphere technology

A Dyson Sphere isn't "advanced technology". What makes it impossible is the sheer scale involved in trying to surround a sun, but if we eliminate the scale involved by making the "sun" a controlled fusion reaction, then it isn't much more complicated than building a space station. Photovoltaic technology to exploit the energy from this reaction already exists.

Laser guns, I speculated on this earlier, but another reason may be that lasers are illegal and/or impracticable to bring onto spaceships and space stations.

The "running out of energy" is a bit of a stretch, but we can assume that they haven't focused on improving batteries because they haven't had the need to do so. After all, living in a Dyson Sphere provides great amounts of free energy that they probably tap into all the time. Being trapped somewhere where you can't automatically tap into this energy is probably an extremely rare event.

Whether these explanations are true or not is in general irrelevant. I am just showing that it isn't particularly hard to come up with simple explanations for all these complaints.

Apr 30, 2013 8:54 PM

#67

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Jan 2009

92454

@Takuan_Soho

widespread usage of fusion reactors means they are living in type 1 civilization already if i remember kardashev scale correctly, type 1 civilization can manipulate a planet's weather so its easy to think they have advance technologies

the living conditions in Valvrave world is still type 0 civlization like our present modern living conditions, the only type 1 civilization living condition they have is that they are living in space

also having a Dyson Sphere means its type 2 civilization http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/earth/geology/earth-5000-years.htm

but ye you made a good counter argument although that proves that this show is not really a serious science fiction show

degApr 30, 2013 9:53 PM

Apr 30, 2013 10:24 PM

#68

AnimeKami

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Dec 2007

143

I don't think stabbing your own mech and all of a sudden powering up to ssj 2 qualifies as a serious sci fi.

it seems counter intuitive that the dyson sphere aided in space travel. Shouldn't space travel help build the dyson sphere

May 1, 2013 12:10 AM

#69