| This is a follow-up to a running theme about Muv-Luv Alternative: Total Eclipse. That is: the “annoyance factor”. Muv Luv has a lot going for it, but there’s just something about the character portrayal that really gets on my nerves. After thinking it through for a while, I just started reading the Muv Luv comments sections on other anime blogs and forums just to see if they felt the same way. Sure enough, I found that I was definitely not alone in my annoyance with this series. One particular comment seemed particularly spot-on. It was in the Star-Crossed Anime’s blog review of Muv Luv episode 5: Total Eclipse’s narrative is simply a cautionary reminder: sometimes the story the author thinks he is telling is more of a mirror image of his own soul, rather than a window into his subjects (in this case, Americans, Russians, French, etc). The author of Total Eclipse believes he is writing a “teaching moment” about racism, particularly about the American military strain. In fact, he’s simply describing a mirror image of his own (Japanese) racism. I’ve served in Yokosuka aboard the USS Fitzgerald for several years, and being called a racist by the Japanese is akin to being called a racist by a Nazi. I’m not making an emotional insult, it’s a factual statement. Living and bunking on the USS Fitzgerald (Or any Command in my career) and relocating from the bridge to the Quarterdeck to Aft Steering, you’ll see any number of Americans of different races and mixed race. Neither I nor anybody else gave it much thought because race is about as important as the color of your T-shirt on Liberty weekend in the US Military. I have shipmates and civilian co-workers who have relatives with different ethnic backgrounds and mixed heritage so convoluted they don’t even bother with it and often don’t care. One of my friend’s uncle and aunt has a pair of adopted kids of Korean extract. They both go to our self-defense lessons, come to Command events and attend school just as any American children with loving parents in the Military would. It’s perfectly normal for us. Of course, the above situations are completely alien to the Japanese…and there’s the rub: The author thinks he is describing a mixed raced person’s alienation and racial discrimination in a typical US Military and American family setting. But in reality, he’s describing what would happen if a mixed race person was placed in a typical JSDF or Japanese family setting. In that light, it’s forgiveable. Have you worked with or even SEEN the JSDF? Do you know what would happen if a mixed race person was exposed to a Military service that to this day prides itself on its racial purity? They still talk about the Yamato Master race, which was the equivalent of Nazi Germany’s Aryan Master race in WWII. The Japanese sailors, while our conversations are cordial, are not exactly shy about their racism. For that matter, take a walk down a Japanese street and let me know if you ever run across a white or dark-skinned Japanese citizen. You’ll be walking for a long, long time. There are horror stories of Japanese ostracization of mixed-race children, some involving sympathetic parents who literally beg the DODEA (it’s our Japan-based school system for military brats) and American institutes in Japan to accept their children (which is easier if you’re in our employment and there’s enough room). If you know anything about the extreme Japanese form of “begging”, then you know that this really puts our superintendants into awkward moments. But who can blame them? Would YOU send your mixed-race child to a “pure” Japanese school with all the ideological baggage that racial “puriy” and “uniqueness” entails? In the end, the narrative of Total Eclipse is about Japanese projection more than anything else. Once you get past that point, you might be able to enjoy the series – maybe even laugh at it a little. After all, once you’ve lived in Japan for a while, US servicemen generally come to an “understanding” about Japanese racial attitudes, and they’re kinda fun to be around (trust me, they’re not as “reserved” or as stoic as their popular culture makes them out to be). It could be worse. You could be working in Bahrain or Saudi Arabia or Karachi and dealing with Muslim religious attitudes- and they’re not nearly as much fun, trust me on this. I think this has it exactly right. My cousin and her husband are expecting a baby in a few months. It's really crass to even mention it, but the baby will be Taiwanese-Polish-German. Actually, I don't really know. But eventually, she's going to go to school when she grows up. And there is just absolutely no way in hell that my cousin and her husband are gonna enroll their new daughter into a Taiwanese school. Not - a - snowball’s - chance - in - hell. I’ve been to Taichung and Taipei to visit our relatives and tour the country on family visits. Except for the rancid air and the tiny portions they sell in the restaurants, it’s a nice place to visit, and it’s my ancestral country. I’m not saying that all Taiwanese people are exceptionally racist or would necessarily want to bully/hen-peck my new cousin in school. But I also know that her mixed heritage will become far more of an “issue”, maybe even a “problem”, in Taiwan as opposed to even the most segregated parts of America. Araragi93 said:  He's finally understood the way of yamato damashii and become one with his TSF, yay. Also I guess they mispelled Takemizakuchi, you can read "Takemizakuti" and "TST" in the display when the Takemikazuchi is approaching them. Maid Tarisa was olev. Yah. My cousin’s daughter isn’t going to a school in Taipei, but she’s also definitely not going to be enrolled in a Japanese school no matter where her husband gets sent. It is apparent that not many fellow Americans understand the racial background of “yamato damashii” particularly with respect to how the countries which surround Japan have experienced it. As the poster at Star-crossed anime blog mentioned, I can confirm quite frankly that the Japanese are hated throughout East Asia for continuing to revel in the glorification of “yamato damashii”. Actually, "hate" would be putting it lightly. In WW2, the Japanese did indeed consider themselves the Master race of the East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere. Their justification to conquer and butcher the Taiwanese, the Koreans, the Phillipinos, the Manchus and what-not (the inferior Asian races who lacked “yamato damashii”) was based on something called the “Flying Geese Formation”. Basically it was the Japanese version of the Nazi “Lebensraum”. Word of the wise. Never get caught "complimenting" a Taiwanese national with "yamato damashii". That also might not go over very well in the rest of China, Singapore, hell, the rest of SE Asia. Did I forget to mention that there’s just no way in hell my cousin’s daughter is going to be condemned to a school life with the Japanese? Yes, I think there's a good reason why this series character portrayal bugs me and so many others so much. This isn’t the first anime series to do that in this particular way, of course, and it probably won’t be the last. Still, if we can ignore the ever glorious, always in-your-face "yamato damashii", it’ll be interesting to see how the story progresses. I just hope the writers don't get too full of themselves while they teach us mongrel and racially impure Americans a lesson. |
| Interesting...I don't have much to add, but I read your whole post and its something that bugged me a bit even in the original Muv Luv Alt VN. I don't know if you've read it because it throws quite a few barbs at the U.S so I wasn't surprised to find this sort of stereotyping in Eclipse. Actually I've only seen the first ep so far so I'll go watch more and come back later. |
| Sounds like Japan is still butthurt |
| The Art of Eight |
| Ya i definitely felt that in Muv Luv alternate the perception of Americans was far worse than it is in TE. Americans were viewed has manipulators and cowards, they let other fight there battle while they claim the victory in the end. Using Japan as a human shield from the beta while never letting them step food on there soil. And the people that they would ever let the reader feel sympathy for was Citizens foreign to the US. But then again you do have to take into consideration is that the japan in Muv luv is not the japan in our modern times. They are still the Imperial Japan from the 1930's though weakened there views have not changed from then in move love. And relation with japan and us is kinda shaky. I just got finished playing both games last week so this is still fresh in my head. |
DarthVantos said: Ya i definitely felt that in Muv Luv alternate the perception of Americans was far worse than it is in TE. Americans were viewed has manipulators and cowards, they let other fight there battle while they claim the victory in the end. Using Japan as a human shield from the beta while never letting them step food on there soil. And the people that they would ever let the reader feel sympathy for was Citizens foreign to the US. But then again you do have to take into consideration is that the japan in Muv luv is not the japan in our modern times. They are still the Imperial Japan from the 1930's though weakened there views have not changed from then in move love. And relation with japan and us is kinda shaky. I just got finished playing both games last week so this is still fresh in my head. It's interesting that you mention this. My cousin-in-law is a Marine (I'll call him "Gunny" from here on). He and I often talk about his overseas deployments in Operation Iraqi Freedom (OIF) and more recently in Afghanistan. One of our conversions dealt with "multinational forces" which he didn't have too much familiarity with while he was in Iraq (I'll get to the reason for that). Japan was one of those multinational forces. Not surprisingly, the Japanese and every other nation decided to send their "window dressing" forces to "fight" in Kurdistan so they could be hailed as heroes by a compliant media. The truth was, the Japanese were nowhere near the red war-zone, and were glad to stay that way while they piled on the media accolades. I mentioned the "multinational effort" to Gunny and he said he didn't know too much about them other than the fact that they were in Northern Kurdistan. When I asked "Why" he said Northern Kurdistan was dominated by Kurds who didn't need to be protected because they kept internal security themselves. Kurdistan was an autonomous nation much in the same way that Taiwan is independent of Communist China (a part of "Iraq" in name only). There was no insurgency to fight in Northern "Kurdistan" who has been a US ally since the first Iraq War. The Marines operated in Anbar or in conjunction with the Army around other Baathist Sunni or Iranian-backed Shiite areas, places where the insurgency was hot. In fact, Gunny told me something I'll never forget but which apparently has been a running joke in the US Military for the past decade: The only reason the Marines would go to Kurdistan is for Rest & Relaxation. He was only partly kidding. US servicemen actually did take time off from battlestress by going to Kurdistan, although they were more often US Army from places like Mosul or Tikrit to get a mid-deployment break from the war. Army rotations were a full year, after all, sometimes longer depending on extended rotations from "surges". Marines were 6 months. The Kurds BTW were famous for treating US personnel well (and babysitting Japanese squatters). So the next time someone harps on about a fantasy like Muv Luv, just tell the prick: Well, In Real Life, Japanese soldiers "go to war" in places where American soldiers take their vacations. You'll feel better because, hell, it's True |
Jerrychiang said: DarthVantos said: Ya i definitely felt that in Muv Luv alternate the perception of Americans was far worse than it is in TE. Americans were viewed has manipulators and cowards, they let other fight there battle while they claim the victory in the end. Using Japan as a human shield from the beta while never letting them step food on there soil. And the people that they would ever let the reader feel sympathy for was Citizens foreign to the US. But then again you do have to take into consideration is that the japan in Muv luv is not the japan in our modern times. They are still the Imperial Japan from the 1930's though weakened there views have not changed from then in move love. And relation with japan and us is kinda shaky. I just got finished playing both games last week so this is still fresh in my head. It's interesting that you mention this. My cousin-in-law is a Marine (I'll call him "Gunny" from here on). Would he happen to be a Gunnery Sergeant? ;) That's cool, one of my best friends is a Staff Sergeant and he's done two tours in Iraq and one in Afghanistan. Good posts too, interesting to get another perspective on it from someone with Asian heritage. |
Jerrychiang said: It's interesting that you mention this. My cousin-in-law is a Marine (I'll call him "Gunny" from here on). *snip* So the next time someone harps on about a fantasy like Muv Luv, just tell the prick: Well, In Real Life, Japanese soldiers "go to war" in places where American soldiers take their vacations. You'll feel better because, hell, it's True I bet the Iraqi are overjoyed that the glorious US of A brought them shining democracy and capitalism, and showed them the light and true path. And your cousin-in-law must have been proud to protect and defend his country 6000 miles away from the actual country. If we wanted to go into realistic details, then Yui Takamura would have been the biggest racist cunt in the team, while Bridges Yuuya would go around "saving" everyone - whether they actually want to get "saved" or not - they better shut up and accept "liberation". The pair is almost made for each other. Oh and, since the whole setting and mentality gives off this 1930's vibe, then I also guess that Inia and Cryska should be depicted doing the vast majority of the hard work, but then Yuuya coming in at the last moment in some epic entrance and hogging all the glory for the rest of the episodes. |
RoNin-87Aug 5, 2012 10:26 PM
Enjolras1830 said: what about open patriotism of your fictional Characters you never se e Japanese super going around enblanzed with the Nations Clours do you no you do not since when are truth and justice the American way so we show Anger at you for you unjust part Occupation of Japan for over 60 years and unjust Constitution you had us sign at the end the war Raping the Military and Nobel Tradition Japan had for Longer than the US was even an idea[ when oyu never gave us a Chance to defend our homeland like you gave Germany] the amount of Dishonor in the US Military in its short under 250 years of life is shocking Mai lai any one Kadifa any one use of Agent Orange In Veitman any one Git mo Any one side note if the us is not racist home come more percent of the rich in the Us are White WASP or Jewish people make you think Well, Japan did attack Pearl Harbor and invade many countries in Asia, mine included. So obviously they're going to get their comeuppance from a more powerful military force. |
| The Art of Eight |
Enjolras1830 said: did they fight Japan on Japanese land no thay lacked honor to let us Fight ofr our homeland on our home lind why did thay not abomb Germany[ Be carefull how you reply] Um...because the first successful atomic bomb tested was in July 1945, which is after the fall of Germany. even if they wanted to nuke Germany they couldn't because it wasn't finished yet. Also, the brass decided that a full invasion force in Japanese soil would prolong the war and bring great casualties to both Allied and Japanese forces and civilians. But, that's a debate for another day. |
| The Art of Eight |
Enjolras1830 said: dankickyou said: Enjolras1830 said: did they fight Japan on Japanese land no thay lacked honor to let us Fight ofr our homeland on our home lind why did thay not abomb Germany[ Be carefull how you reply] Um...because the first successful atomic bomb tested was in July 1945, which is after the fall of Germany. even if they wanted to nuke Germany they couldn't because it wasn't finished yet. Also, the brass decided that a full invasion force in Japanese soil would prolong the war and bring great casualties to both Allied and Japanese forces and civilians. But, that's a debate for another day. what about other stuff i brought up foucs on One Ponit i make and also i sure People in Vietnam hate US more than Japan all it is is USA uber alles if a nation openly hates the either the US or there little Bastard Chlid in the Middle east Israel there called Terrorists Iran Egypt Liyba Syria Iraq were all called trrrosit regimes when al they wnated was to keep natonal power in there own hands and have all there right full land back ---- is yo not guess im pro Palestine Under the Yoke of Us/ Israeli Neo nazi Zionism for 60 plus years and when they vote in a Government that will help with there freedom that government is called terroritsc by the US when all they want is there freedom using that Logic you can call the us the Single Longest lived Terroristc State were dod they not fight for freedom [ as abe lincon said it 4 score and seven years ago] I disagree with many things the USA has done (I'm not American btw) But I was only referring to the part of your post on Japan and USA. |
| The Art of Eight |
| what in the world is this dude saying. sorry i wont point out who im talking about but any normal person would understand who i meant. |
NEETs (No Employment Education Training) are the least desirable people anybody would want to hire and yet they are the first choice to become moderators/admins around the internet. They have yet to have established a sense of responsibility or role in society and many are plain leeches (with minor exceptions). They are given "authority" to police sections of the internet with the powers of The Judge, Jury, and Executioner. Isn't that weird? -Migrating to another site- Update 11/9/2016 - Inactive Over a Year. Logged in to laugh at elections. |
| I hate to break it to you, but a lot of the world has a negative view of the US. This anime is also a work of fiction. Just so you know, anecdotal evidence has never been proof of anything. Ever. But congratulations on knowing a soldier who isn't racist, and has experienced perceived racism from someone Japanese. [sarcasm] Clearly this means all US soldiers aren't racist, and all Japanese people are...[/sarcasm] That would be like me calling all Americans ignorant, intolerant, gun-toting bible bashers because Fox News exists. |
| 1st. Clearly the original person who posted didn't know that Ti can be read Chi in both Japanese and Chinese. 2nd. Clearly he's intellect couldn't differentiate the obvious gap in skill demonstrated by Yui, easily defeating 3 TSFs but sparing Yuuya in order to teach him how to operate Japanese-made TSFs. 3rd. My gradeschool self could differentiate a fiction and a real/true-based story, pardon me, but you might need to retake education, perhaps? 4th. So you're bringing all your story life here? Why not make a biography? perhaps even your own anime based on you or your family's/cousin's life? we'll be the ultimate judges of whether it even passes as a quality material. 5th. What you're trying to do is ruin the long kept peace of Japan and America by bringing Pearl Harbor back and focusing on the bad things Japan did during the war. Don't be so unsided on stating the facts, state what bad things America did as well. Oh and so sorry to disappoint you, you must've watched lots of American movie where the main character goes flying solo and crushes the opposing forces? We are watching an FICTION anime not a DELUSIONAL film here thx. 6th. We can conclude that the guy who graciously shared his family and his life story just to boast and strengthen his arguments ( I wouldn't bring my family into my arguments, let alone private stuffs and spread it on the internet), doesn't understand the process in becoming great is through not only success, but failures and hurdles by the surrounding people and environment. 7th. Next time get your head out of your ass before posting thank you~ 8th. Oh and says who the Japanese are hated throughout Asia? Bring me a fking survey with fking detailed fking nmbers on what u just stated. Don't go mumbling fking codswallop without even having a firm base, clearly you've not been brought up well, huh? |
FerunaLutelu-sanAug 6, 2012 8:40 AM
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| Well, I'm an American citizen and so far I'm in love with this anime. Sure, the episode about the Americans being racist at Yuuya for being Japanese-American kind of got me pissed, but come on. It happens everywhere. It's unavoidable. And this critique is also used to enforce how harsh Yui is towards Yuuya. This isn't the only anime that stereotypes the US. Look at Excel Saga, you'll be surprised on how they CENSOR our flag as a dick. Yet, I still enjoyed Excel Saga! Yes I'm a bit angry, but at the same time we often stereotype asains and other numerous countries for comedic relief such as shows on Family Guy or American Dad. But hey, If you can't take some criticisim then DON'T WATCH IT! In all, I think I'm going to let this go, yes I have my American pride but still I know better than fuss over some anime quotes. I love this show so far, and I don't plan on dropping it. But don't get me wrong, I love my country and I love the Japanese all the same. =) |
| Did you say "nerd"? ---------------------- Not "nerd" -- "node". |
Enjolras1830 said: if the us is not racist home come more percent of the rich in the Us are White WASP or Jewish people make you think Basically, all you’ve told me is that you don’t like white people and you’ve never been invited to a friend’s Bar Mitzvah. I’ll just lift a few passages from the opening post: sometimes the story the author thinks he is telling is more of a mirror image of his own soul, rather than a window into his subjects… The author … believes he is writing a “teaching moment” about racism... In fact, he’s simply describing a mirror image of his own (Japanese) racism. |
Enjolras1830 said: what yout ethnic background if Asian would you not be more linked too you fellow Asians who share alot of the same culture as you own nation or the us who share no link to your nation Culturally appeeing to you Pan Asianism I see the Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere is alive and well in Japan. Sorry to disappoint, but I’m an American. Not a Japanese racist like you. And not to be confused with the similarly racist and self-described "ethnic-Americans". The American identity is not racial, but ideological. “Pan Asianism” means diddly-squat to people like us. But the saddest part is that you’ll probably never figure that one out till the day you die. Just like your predecessors. When they couldn’t understand why all the “Asians”, who looked the same, didn’t immediately fall at their enlightened feet, the Japanese proceeded to butcher anyone who didn’t coalesce around their banner of Pan-Asianism. “But we all look the same, so we should all think alike! Hey, you should think like me!” Yeah, whatever. Understanding how individuality and self-determination works was never your strong suit even after the US Occupation. Buzz off with your entreaty to “racial solidarity”. History has already recorded where your siren-call to “Pan-Asianism” leads. Or do you need another round of nukes to drive home the lesson? |
JerrychiangAug 6, 2012 1:28 PM
Enjolras1830 said: since when are truth and justice the American way so we show Anger at you for you unjust part Occupation of Japan for over 60 years and unjust Constitution you had us sign at the end the war Raping the Military and Nobel Tradition Japan had for Longer than the US was even an idea[ when oyu never gave us a Chance to defend our homeland like you gave Germany] fullmetal_adam said: I hate to break it to you, but a lot of the world has a negative view of the US. FerunaLutelu-san said: 8th. Oh and says who the Japanese are hated throughout Asia? Bring me a fking survey with fking detailed fking nmbers on what u just stated. Don't go mumbling fking codswallop without even having a firm base, clearly you've not been brought up well, huh? Talk about a bunch of loaded – and vague – statements. I guess I’ll refer chiefly to Enjolras1830 since he seems to be Japanese and this concerns his country in particular. 1) By your own admission, the Japanese way of life today is an American-imposed system clothed in Japanese guise. And you’re correct. The true Japanese way of life died a violent death long ago, much like Germany’s did. The surrendering remnants were swept away by the US Occupation to be replaced by Americanisms and ideals not your own. You were given no choice in the matter. Yes, we let you keep the tea ceremonies, kimonos and what-not providing the skin of Japanese identity, but your entire system of government, its economy, its basic societal norms and structure was reshaped to mimic American norms. The proper treatment of women that is revered in your animes, for example, is not Japanese in origin, nor was it ever a part of Bushido. I make no apologies for this, and with good reason, I’m actually proud America is responsible for all of it. 2) Your anger is misdirected. Do you even know what it means to reject "truth and justice the American way"? If you truly believed in what you are saying, you would tear up that Constitution right now. It is, after all, not based on the Meiji Constitution, face-saving protestations aside. It has no Japanese origin, and is written by American military lawyers based on the Constitution, the American original. You can abolish your version of our Constitution and its ideals by a sweeping amendment (the original works the same way), revert back to your Imperial Rule, abolish all elections and elected bodies, re-seat the Emperor with God-like power, etc. That is what it means to go back to the true “Japanese way”, the Imperial Japan you find so noble. You would not be the first failed republic who reverted back to dictatorial rule. You can tell the US Military to leave and they would leave, just as they left the Philippines. In fact, every population except those we are currently at war with has the ability to do just that. Not because they fought for it, but because that is the American way. No Japanese soldier need fight for freedom. Then again, no Japanese soldier ever has. This and more is what it means to reject "truth and justice the American way", the real meaning of the words, not the empty platitudes you pretend to espouse. If you were a people true to those word - rather than a people always playing petty Face–saving games - you would have erased every vestige of America's "justice" long ago. Even now, it is within your power to do so. But you haven't. And you didn't. And you won't. Your people, man or woman, old or young, even mixed-raced and deformed, have the right of self-determination – individually for yourselves and collectively for your country. You are – today – whatever you want to be, heedless of any God-Emperor or dictatorial Shogunate. No, it was not the work of an Imperial Japanese soldier. It was certainly not an ideology borne from the Japanese people themselves. If it were, perhaps you would not feel the need to save Face by directing your anger at America and its soldiers. The “justice” meted out on Japan by America was historically merciful, such that you would never have dreamed to bestow on the Taiwanese, nor anyone else for that matter. It’s a shame you have not the grace to acknowledge it. Then again, America has not fallen so low that it needs any acknowledgement from the likes of the Japanese. More is the pity. 3) The reason why everyone in Asia rejects Japanese rationalizations about WW2 is because your "truth and justice", the "Japanese way", was barbaric. Not simply the War, but the Peace you imposed on the defeated and subjugated was in many ways worse than War, worse than death. War is Hell, but for non-Japanese in Imperial Japan, Hell was preferable. In Taiwan, the Japanese Imperial system executed the locals for not showing “proper respect” for something as minor as teaching the Taiwanese dialect, piling and hanging their victims in public display for all to see. Why? To demonstrate Japanese “truth and justice” and glorify the indomitable Yamato spirit which all Taiwanese were forced to adopt. “Disrespecting” Shintoism by refusing to convert and revere the God-Emperor was grounds for summary execution; no trial, no mercy, no exceptions for the glory of the Emperor and Yamato Damashii. Sound familiar yet? Worst of all, even decent Taiwanese accepted this out of fear and despair. The stories are legion. I need not recite them. This is the true face of Japanese Bushido – before it was annihilated and replaced with something completely alien and less malign during the US Occupation. If life were fair, you would have suffered a Japanese-style Occupation. No Constitution, no consideration for women or the weak, your children kidnapped to be indoctrinated as servants to a foreign emperor, your native tongue and language outlawed, your precious customs and oldest traditions abolished, your shrines converted to a foreign religion or burned to the ground, no hint of self-determination, no prospect for free elections, etc, etc, etc, and Death for any perceived insult you directed at your self-proclaimed masters, real or imagined. As it is, life is not fair. You were granted a different fate, one far more merciful than you deserved. 4) Word of advice: don’t use the word “Dishonor” since you don’t know how to use it properly. The word you should be using (and are probably more familiar with) to convey what you want is “Shame”. The concept of “Honor” was alien to the Japanese not so long ago. It’s actually the antithesis of the Japanese traditional concept of “Face” (this applies to all Asian cultures, I know). Sometime in the mid 20th century the Japanese became heavily exposed to and eventually began to idolize a different code of behavior that was dominated by personal integrity and guilt, rather than public shame and peer pressure. Today, this non-Japanese concept is admired and pervades even your anime by getting called “Bushido” even though its underpinnings have no historical lineage in Bushido, just as the chaste and considerate treatment of women in Japan today (and anime) has no lineage in Bushido whatsoever. “Honor” is not a Japanese concept in origin at all. The codes and traditions are actually religious in origin, but that’s a long story. Gunny has explained it to me and I understand the gist of it. But I’m not as proficient in the explanation as he is because I’m not well versed in Christianity, I’m agnostic. I’ll just say that, when you really think about it, “Honor” really is based on a religious precondition, a leap of faith, whereas “Face” is based on a temporal, social, some might say “practical” precondition. 5) Taiwan was never “at war” with Japan. It was already under Japanese rule, had been for decades. There is no “War-is-Hell” reasoning in what happened in Taiwan. What happened in Taiwan was the inevitable outcome of the Japanese system, your everyday way of life, Japan’s “truth and justice”. Whereas the American soldiers in My lai were court-martialed for their actions in war because they were exceptions, Japanese and Imperial Taiwanese administrators and security executed populations as a matter of policy enforcement in peacetime all over the empire. Neither they nor the Japanese military were court-martialed as exceptions because they were not exceptions at all. They did exactly what the Japanese Imperial system intended. Even when a small fraction of them were eventually punished, it was not by Japanese hands. Even leaving aside the sadistic nature of Imperial Japan as a whole, there is simply no comparison to be made between the Imperial Japanese soldiers and their American counterparts, in War or Peace. You’ve been reading fables for too long if you think Gitmo can be compared to the Japanese Kinkaseki and Kempeitai Prisons. If anything, America is treating the Muslim prisoners far better than they deserve and I hate the fact that the prisoners can heap abuse on the Marine guards, knowing the Marines will show the kind of restraint the Japanese soldier was never capable of. Agent Orange was an herbicide meant to be a more humane way of identifying the enemy without dropping unnecessary ordnance. Trust me, if the US Military wanted to use CBR to poison people (and Agent Orange’s toxicity, like DDTs, has been overstated beyond reason) we would have used mustard gas and nerve agents or even something like Cobalt-60. We also could have used Bubonic plague like Japan did against Chinese population centers. There’s no shortage of rats and vermin in Vietnam to act as vectors. To be frank, if we Americans were really as evil as you claim us to be, we would not have even bothered with these seemingly ridiculous half-measures when far more “effective” means were at our disposal. The American Military unquestionably had the ability to do to Japan what Japan had done to the people in the rest of the “Greater East Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere”. There was absolutely nothing stopping America from doing so beyond its own moral inhibitions. Even now, the US Military possesses more power to subjugate Japan by force than you could ever dream of having over Taiwan, even at the height of the Japanese Empire. But the US Military won’t. Because America lacks the will. To be frank, it lacks the vicious brutality to conduct itself with true Yamato Damashii. |
JerrychiangAug 6, 2012 2:32 PM
Jerrychiang said: Now you have completely crossed the line from idiot to ignorant racist living in a bubble. And please, stop jerking off to fantasies about WWII.Sorry to disappoint, but I’m an American. Not a Japanese racist like you. And not to be confused with the similarly racist and self-described "ethnic-Americans". Or do you need another round of nukes to drive home the lesson? You can tell the US Military to leave and they would leave, just as they left the Philippines. This was funny though. The whole world has been telling you to GTFO of the Middle East for years... |
I bet the Iraqi are overjoyed that the glorious US of A brought them shining democracy and capitalism, and showed them the light and true path. And your cousin-in-law must have been proud to protect and defend his country 6000 miles away from the actual country. I think we’re all relieved that everything turned out alright. The Iraqis are not so much “overjoyed” as they are “hard at work". There’s a lot of investment going into Iraq and the Kurds are doing well too after a few hiccups with the central government over how to divide revenue. Plenty of problems yet to be solved but what else is new, they have far fewer problems now than most neighboring states. Make no mistake, Iraq’s federal republic is not out of the woods yet. There’s no history of an Arab republic so this is new ground for the “Iraqi” people, and there are many who would like to see it fail, if only to see America fail. Imagine the Japanese Empire being divided into the Philipines, Taiwan and Japan proper. That’s Iraq today really, with the Kurds and Shiites having to cooperate with their former Baathist Sunni overlords, whom they consider butchers. And they’re being told to trust election ballots and representative traditions that are simply alien to their culture. That’s a lot to ask when you think about it. The really good news is that Gunny’s confident the Iraqi Military, who’s NCO corps is entirely American trained, understands what’s at stake. And that’s huge. They’ve bought their own complement of Abrams tanks, they just need more work on how to operate, coordinate and maintain them, hopefully without US contractors one day (yeah, technical expertise comes a little slow). More importantly, they’re combat veterans who’ve operated with US soldiers and Marines for several years from Tikrit to Basra. In the combat arms community, that counts for a lot. So we’ll provide the reinforcements and the ultimate deterrent if it ever comes to that. Don’t believe a word of what Obama says. South Korea wasn’t exactly safe from re-invasion just because the Korean War officially ended. South Vietnam’s republic died aborning when it got trampled by North Vietnamese tanks after the US withdrew support. The Iranians have tanks. So do the Turks. So do the Saudis. So do the Syrians (who are busy with other matters hopefully for a while). And every one of them has had a hand in trying to pull “Iraq” apart at the seams by proxy, and failed. Of course, America’s been through this several times before. The Iraqi government officials compare their situation to that of South Korea, rather than Japan (They know Japan’s reputation in East Asia and don’t want to invite that kind of comparison). And with luck, and maybe 70 odd years, we’ll start hearing Iraqi stories about how they “chose” Peace and became an advanced and rich country through effort and sheer will, demonstrating the enduring Yama.. - I mean - Iraqi spirit. Somewhere in there, the fact that there was a foreign Invasion, Occupation, and Reformation will get minimized and perhaps forgotten. If they ever bring it up, they’ll complain that we were too harsh on them. As for Gunny, he’s got a few years left in him before retirement and then some. He’s secured his place in history to tell his future grandkids, mid-wifed a new Republic, has friends and a good rep with virtually every ethnicity in the Iraqi security forces, and he’s come home safely. I’m sure there’s one person who’s especially thankful for that last part, even though she always tells me that her place is not to whine, but to hold down the home-front. Yeah, whatever. I’ll step out so she can cry herself silly. Nobody – including Gunny - is under any illusions about whether his purpose in Iraq was to fight for nameless, faceless foreigners who will probably never know his name. He’s not that grandiose. And to be honest, I’m pretty certain he didn’t go to Iraq to fight for nameless, faceless Americans either. He keeps a picture in his pocket behind his ID card telling me it’s not a picture of an Iraqi. I’ve seen it and I can confirm that it’s definitely not a picture of an Iraqi. It’s also not a picture of just any American. Maybe the soldiers who ended up in the Occupation Force in Japan felt the same way. No, American soldiers didn’t fight for Iraqi or Japanese freedoms. And yet, those freedoms would not exist today if America’s soldiers lost. For whatever reason, the success of one is a necessary condition for the other. You need only look at what happened when North Vietnam conquered South Vietnam to understand that. I really do want to see Iraq succeed, not because I care about its faceless people per se, but because I want to see Gunny’s legacy survive. Iraq’s success would be lasting proof of his victory. And if he’s victorious, that means the Iraqis have become prosperous. That’s actually not such a bad thing. Call it “The American Way”. |
JerrychiangAug 6, 2012 4:03 PM
| ^A living example of the "stereotypical American" right here. A round of applause, ladies and gentleman |
| The /facepalm is strong in this thread. |
| Honestly I don't think anyone outside of America, gives a shit about the country. They've managed to piss off off every race and damn good amount of countries. Like really how many democratic developed countries are currently at war? I don't even think you can call it a war, because that implies that both sides have a chance of winning. Obviously, there are a lot of great ppl living in the country and they provide us with some great entertainment via hollywood... but the government itself can go suck it. Why the hell would you think that your country would be portrayed positively in the first place considering you dropped 2 fucking atomic bombs on their ass, plus all the fire bombing, occupation and dissolved their military. |
 "The individual has always had to struggle to keep from being overwhelmed by the tribe. If you try it, you will be lonely often, and sometimes frightened. But no price is too high to pay for the privilege of owning yourself." -Friedrich Nietzsche |
bottosai-01 said: Obviously, there are a lot of great ppl living in the country and they provide us with some great entertainment via hollywood... but the government itself can go suck it. Why the hell would you think that your country would be portrayed positively in the first place considering you dropped 2 fucking atomic bombs on their ass, plus all the fire bombing, occupation and dissolved their military. I couldn't be more against the US external policy, in particular in the Middle East, but if they hadn't dropped the atomic bombs (which was an abominable act of course, but what in war isn't?), forcing a quick surrender of Japan, many more people would have died (both Japanese and Americans), what people have to criticize isn't the atomic bombs, but the war itself, both sides are to blame for it. |
| I thought I took anime seriously... I was wrong. |
 |
vagsk said: Soldiers dying on the battlefield from both sides is one thing. Dropping a nuclear bomb and killing civilians is another. The atomic bombs killed instantly a lot of people but the problem was with the ones that survived. The ones dying from radiation poisoning soon afterwards and the ones that lived a long life with permanent health issues due to the high doses of radiation. Aside from the fact of the radiation, when the US carpet bombed Tokyo (March 10, 1945 if I'm not mistaken) they killed more people than any of the 2 A-Bombs, the Japanese also killed lots of civilians, as did the USSR and Nazi Germany and so on, so there's no reason to blame the US specifically, the lesson here is that war itself is a horrible thing and more often than not both sides are complete assholes. vagsk said: How could any of this helped many more people not dying, unless you are only reffering to American people... A full-scale ground invasion would have ended with many more casualties from both sides, the Japanese weren't exactly willing to surrender, so yeah, you could say it was the lesser evil, which of course doesn't mean it wasn't an awful thing. |
Otakufreak26 said: bottosai-01 said: Honestly I don't think anyone outside of America, gives a shit about the country. They've managed to piss off off every race and damn good amount of countries. Like really how many democratic developed countries are currently at war? I don't even think you can call it a war, because that implies that both sides have a chance of winning. Obviously, there are a lot of great ppl living in the country and they provide us with some great entertainment via hollywood... but the government itself can go suck it. Why the hell would you think that your country would be portrayed positively in the first place considering you dropped 2 fucking atomic bombs on their ass, plus all the fire bombing, occupation and dissolved their military. LOL wtf is this shit? First off Japan attacked the US first as well as nearby Asian countries and subjugated them. Don't make light of Japan during that war. I like the Japan now but if they ever went back to that kind of country I would never side with them. Japan had a chance to surrender and they didn't. Only one bomb was supposed to be dropped. Not that the people deserved to be blown to bits but what their country did was no better. When Japan took over other Asian countries they raped the woman, and killed and tortured the inhabitants. Not that I think my country is the best or anything but I sure as hell don't think it is the worst. All you other posters need to stop being biased and ignorant. The US isn't the prime evil in the world nor do we enjoy war. A little empathy goes a long way. the guy is from Canada,... don't take him seriously. Derp. |
| Glorious Titties Nuff Said! Make America Great Again! |
Posse said: vagsk said: How could any of this helped many more people not dying, unless you are only reffering to American people... A full-scale ground invasion would have ended with many more casualties from both sides, the Japanese weren't exactly willing to surrender, so yeah, you could say it was the lesser evil, which of course doesn't mean it wasn't an awful thing. Actually, it seems the 2nd bomb was not necessary... But yes, a ground invasion would have ended with many more casuality, because japanese were pretty scary in the "never surrender" departement. Edit : and the use of atomic bomb during this war is probably why they were never used again... This was maybie what stopped the 3rd world war from happening (but it's pure guess) Imagine the battle of Okinawa at the Japan scale... How many civilian casualities? 1 million? 5 millions? More? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Okinawa |
TryssAug 26, 2012 3:37 PM
| lol, americans... |
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antonn said: The /facepalm is strong in this thread. I agree with this. There is no end to it if you talked about racism, because everyone in the end belongs to a race, or nationality. And seriously, if you are saying that someone is racist because they are belong to a race that you think is racist that would makes you a racist too. Also, racist jokes are funny when it's not about yours. |
| The most important things in life is the people that you care about |
| What did I just read???? |
| this thread is a gem, better than top10 anime on MAL |
    |
| This is Gold, hhahaha. You can go ahead and defend Japan. But it's True US not the best in real world scenario. US did saved most of the countried during WW2 and Imperial Japan can go eat shit and their Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere that is being copied by the Chinese. |
 "The End Justifies The Means" -Niccolo Machiavelli |
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