Kara no Kyoukai 5: Mujun Rasen Episode 1 Discussion

Jul 20, 2023 2:00 AM

Offline

Aug 2019

1054

I'm gonna be real, i really like this series so far and i think the story, characters and atmosphere are absolutely amazing but man this chapter was just such a mind fuck. I think i only managed to understand like half of it if i'm serious, it felt like someone was throwing me through loops and completely made me question what i knew at every minute about the series.

First the pacing of the show with it's scene changes, transitions, repeating scenes, changes of perspective is on such a high level of its own its fucking amazing, it cemented that feeling of Deja vu or living in a repeating nightmare or just the psychological horror in general so god damn well. I think the closest thing that i can think off that matches such a unique way of scene swapping and story telling would be Monogatari.

The scene swapping and just absolute chaos of various scenes repeating changing and transitioning, felt so fitting to the theme paradox in this chapter and just heightened the sense of repetitiveness. I also really like how the scene swapping and shit slows down nearer the end as the story kinda comes together and things add up. The transition to various scenes as well were really fucking great, examples like when we first see Touko finding Alba we see an unconscious Mikiya on the ground but it then continues to their first standoff before the second one. Some repeating scenes like Tomoe and Shiki repeating entering into Shiki's apartment as well as some of their daily activities, the coo coo clock in the town going off, and the repeated focus on characters opening/unlocking doors were great in adding tense atmosphere, but by far i think the best one was nearer the halfway point of the chapter when Shiki gets caught and the same scene of Tomoe cowering beneath an injured Araya as he regenerates himself and Tomoe running in fear was great at just coming full circle. Some scenes that swapped to a first person perspective of Shiki i felt had a meaning to it but i couldn't nail sadly.
To add to this, the atmosphere created in this movie was amazing with the scenery and OST. I still regard Overlooking View as the best movie i've watched in terms of the atmosphere created in it, but this movies ability to feel so disorientated, confused and constantly questioning yourself was such a play of psychology for me that it was amazing.

One issue i found with the movie that i felt was a good idea, but i was just way to stupid to comprehend, was the use of some flash scenes that i don't think ever appeared in the actual story. For example there was the scene of Shiki slicing Tomoe's throat in her apartment, Tomoe sitting on the bench next to Mikiya and Touko and later the same scene but just Mikiya i think? Were these just like red herring to add more chaos to the mix? Or what was the point of them cus there's no way a previous fake Tomoe could of experienced any of those events and he's just remembering them like the situation with his mother stabbing him, otherwise surely those characters would remember it since the looping happens in the apartment.

The symbolism in this movie as well was really great. I probably didn't understand much of it as well, but things like the ending with Shiki and Tomoe mirroring each other's movements and looking back one last time before moving on felt impactful, Shiki name being related to the concept of Ying and Yang and the apartment having also that ying and yang felt important and again i feel like the scenes where we see through the first person perspective of Shiki has some meaning, but i can't figure out what.

Some of my questions i managed to find out by googling them, but i still have a few questions about what happens in this chapter:

• One thing i want to confirm on is just the timeline of fake Tomoe escaping and the real Tomoe dying. I understand the fake Tomoe's are created after the last one dies, but when exactly does the real Tomoe die? Another thing i'm confused on is fake Tomoe escaping the loop. Its my understanding that fake Tomoe was programmed by Araya to find Shiki and try to escape, but was him escaping planned or just part of Araya's plan? Also how does Shiki know it's been six months since the real Tomoe died?

• Also on the topic of the timeline, when does this month of Mikiya's absence take place? Is this explained in a different movie? I think Shiki takes Tomoe in between his absence time right? But how long does fake Tomoe actually stay at Shiki's place for? He says 8 days but all the time skips of him and shiki entering the apartment and all the ice cream pots make me believe it's way more then 8 days unless it's another red herring.

• What happens to all the fake people in the apartment after they die? Is there a system that automatically brings there body's somewhere and resets the environment? Do they get discarded or turn into those ghouls? Even so, we aren't given a fixed timeframe of how long Araya has been doing this experiment but from the sounds it's been happening for a while, so should there be a large amount of dead fake corpses?

• Where exactly does Shiki get taken to? Was it just some pocket dimension? Why did Araya keep her in there for so long and not immediately try swapping their brains?

• What was the dream Araya had after he killed Touko? I first thought it was him killing Touko but turns out that was real, so what exactly was the dream?

Admitably due to my lake of knowledge of the nasu verse, one issues i found with this chapter is not knowing a lot about the world. Some questions i still have about the word are:

• So Touko didn't die? It was a puppet? Ngl from how the movie showed it, it seemed like there were always 2 Touko's this entire time, or did she just power up that puppet for that specific occasion? How do her puppets even work? The Touko that did die, if that was a puppet, seemed to have everyone believe it was the real deal with how realistic it was but still turned out to be a fake. Was the second Touko the real one? Or another puppet and the real Touko never intend to go herself?

Character wise, it was good. On top of a really well crafted story, i thought they were also able to create some development for characters. Shiki, Touko and Mikiya i thought all had some pretty outstanding moments this chapter. Shiki with her interactions with Tomoe, telling him to not waste his life after he tries to have her kill him, explaining her emotions towards Mikiya and the ending of her asking for Mikiya's house keys felt like great development points. Touko i feel like got a fair share of the spotlight, some of her past was explained and her connections to Araya and Alba, as well as some of her tactics. I also like how we got more insight as to why she stopped perusing the same goal as Araya, and why she wanted to preserve the daily life. In general i feel like we saw a different side of Touko this chapter. Mikiya as well repeating a lot of what Shiki said to Tomoe without knowing, showing how both him and her share the same thought's about conserving life and towards murder, but also his ability to do research at an impressive scale. Him going head first into Araya's apartment and act as bait knowing it wouldn't be easy also felt like quite a heroic thing and a change of character.
Tomoe of course being the new character, i felt they did a great job at focusing on the important parts of his character that related to the main plot line. They showed his aspirations, relationship with family, and a lot of cause and effect that would eventually lead up to why he murdered. I went from not really liking his character to sympathising with him and liking him after his realization that his parent's went through some incredible hardships, and it wasn't always dark and gloomy to finally also realizing he shouldn't just waste his life fake or not.
I personally think that Araya had a very, average ending. They explained his goals and reasoning for his actions fairly well, its just I think the big reveal that he was the one that gave Fujino and Kirie their powers and it was to do with avoiding the counter force, and he's been alive for centuries and following this single goal for so long that he'd surely have a full proof plan by now to achieve it but still made such a simple mistake that it cost him his life.

Finally the visuals for this show were top notch. Very well done, again the pacing of scenes and what not feels like an entire league of its own, but focusing solely on animation/design/art the movie was once again really well done and great.
The ost this movie had as well was amazing, really added to scenes and the atmosphere of the movie. It was a really nice mix of techno action but spooky ambience.

Out of interest, is there any thread or video i can watch that can clearly explain the timeline of events in the movie or just explain the movie in general?

"yabe."

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Jul 20, 2023 3:31 AM

#502

FZREMAKE

Offline

Jan 2021

5014

Code0018 said:
I'm gonna be real, i really like this series so far and i think the story, characters and atmosphere are absolutely amazing but man this chapter was just such a mind fuck. I think i only managed to understand like half of it if i'm serious, it felt like someone was throwing me through loops and completely made me question what i knew at every minute about the series.

First the pacing of the show with it's scene changes, transitions, repeating scenes, changes of perspective is on such a high level of its own its fucking amazing, it cemented that feeling of Deja vu or living in a repeating nightmare or just the psychological horror in general so god damn well. I think the closest thing that i can think off that matches such a unique way of scene swapping and story telling would be Monogatari.

The scene swapping and just absolute chaos of various scenes repeating changing and transitioning, felt so fitting to the theme paradox in this chapter and just heightened the sense of repetitiveness. I also really like how the scene swapping and shit slows down nearer the end as the story kinda comes together and things add up. The transition to various scenes as well were really fucking great, examples like when we first see Touko finding Alba we see an unconscious Mikiya on the ground but it then continues to their first standoff before the second one. Some repeating scenes like Tomoe and Shiki repeating entering into Shiki's apartment as well as some of their daily activities, the coo coo clock in the town going off, and the repeated focus on characters opening/unlocking doors were great in adding tense atmosphere, but by far i think the best one was nearer the halfway point of the chapter when Shiki gets caught and the same scene of Tomoe cowering beneath an injured Araya as he regenerates himself and Tomoe running in fear was great at just coming full circle. Some scenes that swapped to a first person perspective of Shiki i felt had a meaning to it but i couldn't nail sadly.
To add to this, the atmosphere created in this movie was amazing with the scenery and OST. I still regard Overlooking View as the best movie i've watched in terms of the atmosphere created in it, but this movies ability to feel so disorientated, confused and constantly questioning yourself was such a play of psychology for me that it was amazing.

One issue i found with the movie that i felt was a good idea, but i was just way to stupid to comprehend, was the use of some flash scenes that i don't think ever appeared in the actual story. For example there was the scene of Shiki slicing Tomoe's throat in her apartment, Tomoe sitting on the bench next to Mikiya and Touko and later the same scene but just Mikiya i think? Were these just like red herring to add more chaos to the mix? Or what was the point of them cus there's no way a previous fake Tomoe could of experienced any of those events and he's just remembering them like the situation with his mother stabbing him, otherwise surely those characters would remember it since the looping happens in the apartment.

The symbolism in this movie as well was really great. I probably didn't understand much of it as well, but things like the ending with Shiki and Tomoe mirroring each other's movements and looking back one last time before moving on felt impactful, Shiki name being related to the concept of Ying and Yang and the apartment having also that ying and yang felt important and again i feel like the scenes where we see through the first person perspective of Shiki has some meaning, but i can't figure out what.

Some of my questions i managed to find out by googling them, but i still have a few questions about what happens in this chapter:

• One thing i want to confirm on is just the timeline of fake Tomoe escaping and the real Tomoe dying. I understand the fake Tomoe's are created after the last one dies, but when exactly does the real Tomoe die? Another thing i'm confused on is fake Tomoe escaping the loop. Its my understanding that fake Tomoe was programmed by Araya to find Shiki and try to escape, but was him escaping planned or just part of Araya's plan? Also how does Shiki know it's been six months since the real Tomoe died?

• Also on the topic of the timeline, when does this month of Mikiya's absence take place? Is this explained in a different movie? I think Shiki takes Tomoe in between his absence time right? But how long does fake Tomoe actually stay at Shiki's place for? He says 8 days but all the time skips of him and shiki entering the apartment and all the ice cream pots make me believe it's way more then 8 days unless it's another red herring.

• What happens to all the fake people in the apartment after they die? Is there a system that automatically brings there body's somewhere and resets the environment? Do they get discarded or turn into those ghouls? Even so, we aren't given a fixed timeframe of how long Araya has been doing this experiment but from the sounds it's been happening for a while, so should there be a large amount of dead fake corpses?

• Where exactly does Shiki get taken to? Was it just some pocket dimension? Why did Araya keep her in there for so long and not immediately try swapping their brains?

• What was the dream Araya had after he killed Touko? I first thought it was him killing Touko but turns out that was real, so what exactly was the dream?

Admitably due to my lake of knowledge of the nasu verse, one issues i found with this chapter is not knowing a lot about the world. Some questions i still have about the word are:

• So Touko didn't die? It was a puppet? Ngl from how the movie showed it, it seemed like there were always 2 Touko's this entire time, or did she just power up that puppet for that specific occasion? How do her puppets even work? The Touko that did die, if that was a puppet, seemed to have everyone believe it was the real deal with how realistic it was but still turned out to be a fake. Was the second Touko the real one? Or another puppet and the real Touko never intend to go herself?

Character wise, it was good. On top of a really well crafted story, i thought they were also able to create some development for characters. Shiki, Touko and Mikiya i thought all had some pretty outstanding moments this chapter. Shiki with her interactions with Tomoe, telling him to not waste his life after he tries to have her kill him, explaining her emotions towards Mikiya and the ending of her asking for Mikiya's house keys felt like great development points. Touko i feel like got a fair share of the spotlight, some of her past was explained and her connections to Araya and Alba, as well as some of her tactics. I also like how we got more insight as to why she stopped perusing the same goal as Araya, and why she wanted to preserve the daily life. In general i feel like we saw a different side of Touko this chapter. Mikiya as well repeating a lot of what Shiki said to Tomoe without knowing, showing how both him and her share the same thought's about conserving life and towards murder, but also his ability to do research at an impressive scale. Him going head first into Araya's apartment and act as bait knowing it wouldn't be easy also felt like quite a heroic thing and a change of character.
Tomoe of course being the new character, i felt they did a great job at focusing on the important parts of his character that related to the main plot line. They showed his aspirations, relationship with family, and a lot of cause and effect that would eventually lead up to why he murdered. I went from not really liking his character to sympathising with him and liking him after his realization that his parent's went through some incredible hardships, and it wasn't always dark and gloomy to finally also realizing he shouldn't just waste his life fake or not.
I personally think that Araya had a very, average ending. They explained his goals and reasoning for his actions fairly well, its just I think the big reveal that he was the one that gave Fujino and Kirie their powers and it was to do with avoiding the counter force, and he's been alive for centuries and following this single goal for so long that he'd surely have a full proof plan by now to achieve it but still made such a simple mistake that it cost him his life.

Finally the visuals for this show were top notch. Very well done, again the pacing of scenes and what not feels like an entire league of its own, but focusing solely on animation/design/art the movie was once again really well done and great.
The ost this movie had as well was amazing, really added to scenes and the atmosphere of the movie. It was a really nice mix of techno action but spooky ambience.

Out of interest, is there any thread or video i can watch that can clearly explain the timeline of events in the movie or just explain the movie in general?

This movie confuses the hell out of viewers but there is something so beautiful about this movie that even with all these questions, it still feels like a fulfilling watch. Even I have had these questions that you have asked and I couldnt find a single video that explains it or a single thread or discussion or any other related thing that answers these question. I guess the best way would be to read the novels or maybe assume some things. Anyways I might be able to help answer some questions.

Pretty sure the real tomoe died half year ago on the day his family died. His mother did indeed kill him after killing his father then later taking her own life. For some reason it makes more sense that Araya had planned to let him escape and find Shiki. That was the only way to lure shiki to this place. I could be wrong to though. He might have escaped the loop himself but I wont be able to understand how with the given information in the movie. Shiki knew of his death when she checked the real apartment. I mean even with a glimpse of the corpse one could say that they had been left there for at least 6 months.

Shiki does take him in between the absence of Mikiya. The pile of ice cream pots had me confused with the time he spent there as well but I think they didnt eat just one pot per day. He most probably ate like three to four pots (maybe even more) per day. Breakfast, lunch, dinner. We dont know what he was eating while he stayed there. Maybe he ate Hagen daza all day long. Who knows but that might be a possible answer for all the ice cream pots in just 8 days.

Yeah the fake people thing is what confuses me a bit too. Do they like just vanish or something? This experiment Araya has been conducting was around six months till Shiki reached there. I think what we see in the apartment are just 30 families that fell victim to this experiment.

Soren sealed her somewhere outside of space. It was maybe some sort of magical barrier that keeps her locked. Tokoe even laughed at Araya for imprisoning Shiki in a barrier that she would be able to break. Shiki might even have broken the barrier with the help of that Katana. Tokoe did mention before that the sword was able to break all magical barriers which may have caused her to escape. Arya most probably locked her up cause he might have been making some preparation. I dont think it would be that easy to just swap brains. He might need something else. Idk but it most probably required some time for preparation.

I dont remember any dream. I just remember the part where he sees corpses of people in a field where he says that he couldnt help them so he would record their deaths. Maybe I need to rewatch it again.

The touko puppet mystery is as confusing as this movie. Apparently the first death was the trigger for the new Tokoe appearing. Now who was the real Tokoe and does it even matter? I can think of so many possibilities but I dont think I will be satisfied with any one of them unless its 100% confirmed. I think its better to not think about it and just believe that the tokoe alive is the real tokoe with a powerful puppet.

Anyways I dont think this movie is meant to be understood with just one watch. Its one of the most confusing yet conclusive movie I have ever seen. I am just as confused as you are with all these question. My explanations might not be accurate at all I would like to be corrected by someone if I am wrong but I guess for now its best to rewatch the movies and read the novels to grasp whats going on in the timeline. The timeline in which it all occurs is the most confusing.

If you enjoyed the time you wasted, then its not a waste of time.

Jul 20, 2023 5:19 AM

#503

Alexioos95

Offline

Jan 2017

5516

Code0018 said:
So Touko didn't die? It was a puppet?

She did died , but we don't know if she was a puppet.
The second Touko we see is definitely one tho.

Code0018 said:
Ngl from how the movie showed it, it seemed like there were always 2 Touko's this entire time, or did she just power up that puppet for that specific occasion? How do her puppets even work? The Touko that did die, if that was a puppet, seemed to have everyone believe it was the real deal with how realistic it was but still turned out to be a fake. Was the second Touko the real one? Or another puppet and the real Touko never intend to go herself?

Puppets are supposed what they are : puppets...
But Touko is different , she's capable of creating absolutely perfect puppets , literally replicas of a human body.
At this point , her "puppets" are not ones anymore.

We know from her very short explanations to Alba (in the Light Novels) that it's in relation to her soul.
Once she dies , her soul leaves her current body and go to one of her puppet , hidden somewhere , and activate its body.

Nasu said in an interview that Touko had hidden many of her "puppets" of herself a little bit everywhere around the world.
He also said that if the puppet she "reincarnate" into is too far from the location of her death , she loses some of her memory.
He also quickly explained the protocol that Touko follow once she "reincarnated" , so i believe he implies that she died multiple times now. (Or maybe i'm interpreting too much ?)

As for if she's still the same Touko or a replica , we are in the fog.
Alba react at all that by saying that she's absolutely crazy , and that it's a taboo for Magis to do that. (Some magis already experienced replicas of themselves , and all committed suicide due to the madness of their situations.)
When he was dying , he asked Touko which one was real again , and she basically answer back that she doesn't even know herself , and doesn't care anyway , as she's just "Aozaki Touko".

Alexioos95Jul 20, 2023 5:25 AM

"Genius lives only one storey above madness."
– Arthur Schopenhauer.

"Stupidity is a talent for misconception."
– Edgar Allan Poe.

"I'm tired... & hungry."
– Alexioos95.

Jul 20, 2023 1:23 PM

#504

Code0018

Offline

Aug 2019

1054

FZREMAKE said:

Code0018 said:
I'm gonna be real, i really like this series so far and i think the story, characters and atmosphere are absolutely amazing but man this chapter was just such a mind fuck. I think i only managed to understand like half of it if i'm serious, it felt like someone was throwing me through loops and completely made me question what i knew at every minute about the series.

First the pacing of the show with it's scene changes, transitions, repeating scenes, changes of perspective is on such a high level of its own its fucking amazing, it cemented that feeling of Deja vu or living in a repeating nightmare or just the psychological horror in general so god damn well. I think the closest thing that i can think off that matches such a unique way of scene swapping and story telling would be Monogatari.

The scene swapping and just absolute chaos of various scenes repeating changing and transitioning, felt so fitting to the theme paradox in this chapter and just heightened the sense of repetitiveness. I also really like how the scene swapping and shit slows down nearer the end as the story kinda comes together and things add up. The transition to various scenes as well were really fucking great, examples like when we first see Touko finding Alba we see an unconscious Mikiya on the ground but it then continues to their first standoff before the second one. Some repeating scenes like Tomoe and Shiki repeating entering into Shiki's apartment as well as some of their daily activities, the coo coo clock in the town going off, and the repeated focus on characters opening/unlocking doors were great in adding tense atmosphere, but by far i think the best one was nearer the halfway point of the chapter when Shiki gets caught and the same scene of Tomoe cowering beneath an injured Araya as he regenerates himself and Tomoe running in fear was great at just coming full circle. Some scenes that swapped to a first person perspective of Shiki i felt had a meaning to it but i couldn't nail sadly.
To add to this, the atmosphere created in this movie was amazing with the scenery and OST. I still regard Overlooking View as the best movie i've watched in terms of the atmosphere created in it, but this movies ability to feel so disorientated, confused and constantly questioning yourself was such a play of psychology for me that it was amazing.

One issue i found with the movie that i felt was a good idea, but i was just way to stupid to comprehend, was the use of some flash scenes that i don't think ever appeared in the actual story. For example there was the scene of Shiki slicing Tomoe's throat in her apartment, Tomoe sitting on the bench next to Mikiya and Touko and later the same scene but just Mikiya i think? Were these just like red herring to add more chaos to the mix? Or what was the point of them cus there's no way a previous fake Tomoe could of experienced any of those events and he's just remembering them like the situation with his mother stabbing him, otherwise surely those characters would remember it since the looping happens in the apartment.

The symbolism in this movie as well was really great. I probably didn't understand much of it as well, but things like the ending with Shiki and Tomoe mirroring each other's movements and looking back one last time before moving on felt impactful, Shiki name being related to the concept of Ying and Yang and the apartment having also that ying and yang felt important and again i feel like the scenes where we see through the first person perspective of Shiki has some meaning, but i can't figure out what.

Some of my questions i managed to find out by googling them, but i still have a few questions about what happens in this chapter:

• One thing i want to confirm on is just the timeline of fake Tomoe escaping and the real Tomoe dying. I understand the fake Tomoe's are created after the last one dies, but when exactly does the real Tomoe die? Another thing i'm confused on is fake Tomoe escaping the loop. Its my understanding that fake Tomoe was programmed by Araya to find Shiki and try to escape, but was him escaping planned or just part of Araya's plan? Also how does Shiki know it's been six months since the real Tomoe died?

• Also on the topic of the timeline, when does this month of Mikiya's absence take place? Is this explained in a different movie? I think Shiki takes Tomoe in between his absence time right? But how long does fake Tomoe actually stay at Shiki's place for? He says 8 days but all the time skips of him and shiki entering the apartment and all the ice cream pots make me believe it's way more then 8 days unless it's another red herring.

• What happens to all the fake people in the apartment after they die? Is there a system that automatically brings there body's somewhere and resets the environment? Do they get discarded or turn into those ghouls? Even so, we aren't given a fixed timeframe of how long Araya has been doing this experiment but from the sounds it's been happening for a while, so should there be a large amount of dead fake corpses?

• Where exactly does Shiki get taken to? Was it just some pocket dimension? Why did Araya keep her in there for so long and not immediately try swapping their brains?

• What was the dream Araya had after he killed Touko? I first thought it was him killing Touko but turns out that was real, so what exactly was the dream?

Admitably due to my lake of knowledge of the nasu verse, one issues i found with this chapter is not knowing a lot about the world. Some questions i still have about the word are:

• So Touko didn't die? It was a puppet? Ngl from how the movie showed it, it seemed like there were always 2 Touko's this entire time, or did she just power up that puppet for that specific occasion? How do her puppets even work? The Touko that did die, if that was a puppet, seemed to have everyone believe it was the real deal with how realistic it was but still turned out to be a fake. Was the second Touko the real one? Or another puppet and the real Touko never intend to go herself?

Character wise, it was good. On top of a really well crafted story, i thought they were also able to create some development for characters. Shiki, Touko and Mikiya i thought all had some pretty outstanding moments this chapter. Shiki with her interactions with Tomoe, telling him to not waste his life after he tries to have her kill him, explaining her emotions towards Mikiya and the ending of her asking for Mikiya's house keys felt like great development points. Touko i feel like got a fair share of the spotlight, some of her past was explained and her connections to Araya and Alba, as well as some of her tactics. I also like how we got more insight as to why she stopped perusing the same goal as Araya, and why she wanted to preserve the daily life. In general i feel like we saw a different side of Touko this chapter. Mikiya as well repeating a lot of what Shiki said to Tomoe without knowing, showing how both him and her share the same thought's about conserving life and towards murder, but also his ability to do research at an impressive scale. Him going head first into Araya's apartment and act as bait knowing it wouldn't be easy also felt like quite a heroic thing and a change of character.
Tomoe of course being the new character, i felt they did a great job at focusing on the important parts of his character that related to the main plot line. They showed his aspirations, relationship with family, and a lot of cause and effect that would eventually lead up to why he murdered. I went from not really liking his character to sympathising with him and liking him after his realization that his parent's went through some incredible hardships, and it wasn't always dark and gloomy to finally also realizing he shouldn't just waste his life fake or not.
I personally think that Araya had a very, average ending. They explained his goals and reasoning for his actions fairly well, its just I think the big reveal that he was the one that gave Fujino and Kirie their powers and it was to do with avoiding the counter force, and he's been alive for centuries and following this single goal for so long that he'd surely have a full proof plan by now to achieve it but still made such a simple mistake that it cost him his life.

Finally the visuals for this show were top notch. Very well done, again the pacing of scenes and what not feels like an entire league of its own, but focusing solely on animation/design/art the movie was once again really well done and great.
The ost this movie had as well was amazing, really added to scenes and the atmosphere of the movie. It was a really nice mix of techno action but spooky ambience.

Out of interest, is there any thread or video i can watch that can clearly explain the timeline of events in the movie or just explain the movie in general?

This movie confuses the hell out of viewers but there is something so beautiful about this movie that even with all these questions, it still feels like a fulfilling watch. Even I have had these questions that you have asked and I couldnt find a single video that explains it or a single thread or discussion or any other related thing that answers these question. I guess the best way would be to read the novels or maybe assume some things. Anyways I might be able to help answer some questions.

Pretty sure the real tomoe died half year ago on the day his family died. His mother did indeed kill him after killing his father then later taking her own life. For some reason it makes more sense that Araya had planned to let him escape and find Shiki. That was the only way to lure shiki to this place. I could be wrong to though. He might have escaped the loop himself but I wont be able to understand how with the given information in the movie. Shiki knew of his death when she checked the real apartment. I mean even with a glimpse of the corpse one could say that they had been left there for at least 6 months.

Shiki does take him in between the absence of Mikiya. The pile of ice cream pots had me confused with the time he spent there as well but I think they didnt eat just one pot per day. He most probably ate like three to four pots (maybe even more) per day. Breakfast, lunch, dinner. We dont know what he was eating while he stayed there. Maybe he ate Hagen daza all day long. Who knows but that might be a possible answer for all the ice cream pots in just 8 days.

Yeah the fake people thing is what confuses me a bit too. Do they like just vanish or something? This experiment Araya has been conducting was around six months till Shiki reached there. I think what we see in the apartment are just 30 families that fell victim to this experiment.

Soren sealed her somewhere outside of space. It was maybe some sort of magical barrier that keeps her locked. Tokoe even laughed at Araya for imprisoning Shiki in a barrier that she would be able to break. Shiki might even have broken the barrier with the help of that Katana. Tokoe did mention before that the sword was able to break all magical barriers which may have caused her to escape. Arya most probably locked her up cause he might have been making some preparation. I dont think it would be that easy to just swap brains. He might need something else. Idk but it most probably required some time for preparation.

I dont remember any dream. I just remember the part where he sees corpses of people in a field where he says that he couldnt help them so he would record their deaths. Maybe I need to rewatch it again.

The touko puppet mystery is as confusing as this movie. Apparently the first death was the trigger for the new Tokoe appearing. Now who was the real Tokoe and does it even matter? I can think of so many possibilities but I dont think I will be satisfied with any one of them unless its 100% confirmed. I think its better to not think about it and just believe that the tokoe alive is the real tokoe with a powerful puppet.

Anyways I dont think this movie is meant to be understood with just one watch. Its one of the most confusing yet conclusive movie I have ever seen. I am just as confused as you are with all these question. My explanations might not be accurate at all I would like to be corrected by someone if I am wrong but I guess for now its best to rewatch the movies and read the novels to grasp whats going on in the timeline. The timeline in which it all occurs is the most confusing.

This movie confuses the hell out of viewers but there is something so beautiful about this movie that even with all these questions, it still feels like a fulfilling watch.

Yeah i 100% agree with you, this movie was definitely a lot to take in especially for a first time watcher of the series, but man did i love the experience and art of it. The movie created such an amazing atmosphere and feeling to it that i can't help but applaud to.

I guess the best way would be to read the novels or maybe assume some things.

Seems so, I've been trying to dig deeper in some threads for more answers but I think at this rate it'll probably be easier to read some of the novels or just assume some things for myself so i can have peace of mind lol.

Pretty sure the real tomoe died half year ago on the day his family died. His mother did indeed kill him after killing his father then later taking her own life. For some reason it makes more sense that Araya had planned to let him escape and find Shiki. That was the only way to lure shiki to this place.

Yeah it makes sense the Enjou family deaths were all half a year ago with how decomposed the bodies were.
Thinking about it now, it is more logical that Araya himself planned fake Tomoe's escape to find shinji and lure her in with it.

The pile of ice cream pots had me confused with the time he spent there as well but I think they didnt eat just one pot per day. He most probably ate like three to four pots (maybe even more) per day. Breakfast, lunch, dinner. We dont know what he was eating while he stayed there. Maybe he ate Hagen daza all day long. Who knows but that might be a possible answer for all the ice cream pots in just 8 days.

Good point i don't know why i didn't factor in that Tomoe could be eating more then ice cream in a day lol. I think it was just the constant repetition of Tomoe and Shiki opening the door to Shiki's apartment and such scenes that made me feel like more then 8 days had really passed since they were leaving and entering her apartment so many times, but that once again that's probably just the movie repeating scenes and such to make things feel longer and more drawn out then they actually are.

Yeah the fake people thing is what confuses me a bit too. Do they like just vanish or something? This experiment Araya has been conducting was around six months till Shiki reached there. I think what we see in the apartment are just 30 families that fell victim to this experiment.

My exact thoughts as well lol. I haven't found much so I'm just assuming he had some system in the apartment complex that just swept the bodies away to be reconstructed and reset for another loop, and the environment clears itself up since i'm pretty sure it was said the apartment complex was part of his body, but that's just all my theory.

Apparently the first death was the trigger for the new Tokoe appearing. Now who was the real Tokoe and does it even matter? I can think of so many possibilities but I dont think I will be satisfied with any one of them unless its 100% confirmed. I think its better to not think about it and just believe that the tokoe alive is the real tokoe with a powerful puppet.

Yeah i remember Touko explaining that the death of the first puppet is what triggered the second one, but that started throwing me down the hole of who is the real Touko and how her puppets actually work.
I agree it's probably just better to assume that the real Touko is out there somewhere and unless we get some confirmation to her looks and such, we might never know if we've seen the real Touko.

Anyways I dont think this movie is meant to be understood with just one watch. Its one of the most confusing yet conclusive movie I have ever seen. I am just as confused as you are with all these question. My explanations might not be accurate at all I would like to be corrected by someone if I am wrong but I guess for now its best to rewatch the movies and read the novels to grasp whats going on in the timeline. The timeline in which it all occurs is the most confusing.

Thanks for the answers I do appreciate them, it's good to know at least that there are people who are just as confused as me and have similar questions after watching. I agree a rewatch of this chapter is probably gonna help understand more about what happened and so is reading some novels which is something i gotta plan for.

"yabe."

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Jul 20, 2023 2:12 PM

#505

Code0018

Offline

Aug 2019

1054

Alexioos95 said:

She did died , but we don't know if she was a puppet.
The second Touko we see is definitely one tho.

I see now, ok thanks for confirming I was a little confused which out of the two Touko's was a puppet and the real thing (turns out neither of them were probably the real Touko lmao).

But Touko is different , she's capable of creating absolutely perfect puppets , literally replicas of a human body.
At this point , her "puppets" are not ones anymore.

Oh wow ok thats really interesting, so she's able to create such perfect puppets they are literally replicas of human bodies? Now that answers why Araya and Alba were shocked when a second Touko appeared when they really thought they had killed the first one.

We know from her very short explanations to Alba (in the Light Novels) that it's in relation to her soul.
Once she dies , her soul leaves her current body and go to one of her puppet , hidden somewhere , and activate its body.

Wow ok that's really cool and answers pretty my question about how her work. So how she's able to move between puppets and activate them is actually all related to her soul, after one dies she leaves that body and goes onto the next puppet. Thanks for that explanation from the light novels, i really should get around to reading them after finishing the movies.

Nasu said in an interview that Touko had hidden many of her "puppets" of herself a little bit everywhere around the world.
He also said that if the puppet she "reincarnate" into is too far from the location of her death , she loses some of her memory.
He also quickly explained the protocol that Touko follow once she "reincarnated" , so i believe he implies that she died multiple times now. (Or maybe i'm interpreting too much ?)

I think that Touko having a protocol to follow once she is "reincarnated" can be implied she has "died" multiple times. If the only way she can move to a new body is via the old one dying, and assuming it's happened multiple times, i'm sure there must be some side effects to her experiencing a form of death before being born again. I could imagine the protocol being her just recalling her name, personal details, checking the body works and an overall wellness check-up because i'm sure dying and then awakening in a new but exact same body is gonna mess with you no matter how many times you do it.
I think my only question now is if between the process of her soul leaving the old body and entering the new one, does she get a choice whether or not she wants to enter the new body and continue living, or she has a choice to just pass on to the afterlife?

As for if she's still the same Touko or a replica , we are in the fog.
Alba react at all that by saying that she's absolutely crazy , and that it's a taboo for Magis to do that. (Some magis already experienced replicas of themselves , and all committed suicide due to the madness of their situations.)

Damn this makes me more interested about Touko, we see her so much yet we know so little about her, we don't even know if we've seen the real one or ever will.
True I remember Alba being shocked about a second Touko appearing, didn't know it was a taboo though for Magus to be doing something like that. Also wow that's interesting but grim to know that some Magus have tried to replicate themselves but went crazy and committed suicide from the situation. Makes me think more and more about what and how Touko is doing to be able to handle it.

When he was dying , he asked Touko which one was real again , and she basically answer back that she doesn't even know herself , and doesn't care anyway , as she's just "Aozaki Touko".

That's really hardcore and metal lol. I could imagine dying and being reincarnated into a new body being a slow process of insanity for some because of the idea behind it and how you'd never really be yourself, but by saying you don't care cus you know you'd always be the same person is such a power move and honestly makes me respect Touko so much.

Thanks for the answers, they were really informative especially the light novel quotes and Nasu interviews, they honestly helped me shape my opinion of Touko more after knowing how her puppets work and her idea of being herself even after dying and being reborn. Really loving the series more now, thanks again.

"yabe."

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Jul 20, 2023 11:13 PM

#506

Alexioos95

Offline

Jan 2017

5516

Code0018 said:
I could imagine the protocol being her just recalling her name, personal details, checking the body works and an overall wellness check-up because i'm sure dying and then awakening in a new but exact same body is gonna mess with you no matter how many times you do it.

Nasu talked about how when a new Touko wake up , she has to directly create another puppet of herself.
I doubt she'll do a complete check-up tho , she seems 100% confident in her skills.

Code0018 said:
I think my only question now is if between the process of her soul leaving the old body and entering the new one, does she get a choice whether or not she wants to enter the new body and continue living, or she has a choice to just pass on to the afterlife?

I don't think it got ever mentionned , but i doubt she can.
The process of switching bodies is said to be "extremely smooth" , and Nasu even says "too smooth". (Which is why she can lose some of her memory)

Code0018 said:
Damn this makes me more interested about Touko, we see her so much yet we know so little about her, we don't even know if we've seen the real one or ever will.

She's originally a character from Mahoutsukai no Yoru , and its in it that we learn the more about her. (She's literally the antagonist...)
The protagonist of the story is her sister , Aoko , the teacher of Shiki from Tsukihime.
A Movie Adaptation by Ufotable was announced.

We don't know if she's the "real" one in it too tho.
Basically , she fled her home a few years before Mahoutsukai no Yoru , and there is high chances she became a puppet when she was far from home.
It's also possible she became a puppet after leaving the Clock Tower. (Or maybe she was not one until this Kara no Kyoukai Movie...)

Alexioos95Jul 20, 2023 11:17 PM

"Genius lives only one storey above madness."
– Arthur Schopenhauer.

"Stupidity is a talent for misconception."
– Edgar Allan Poe.

"I'm tired... & hungry."
– Alexioos95.

Jul 21, 2023 8:17 PM

#507

Code0018

Offline

Aug 2019

1054

Alexioos95 said:
Nasu talked about how when a new Touko wake up , she has to directly create another puppet of herself.
I doubt she'll do a complete check-up tho , she seems 100% confident in her skills.

Ahhhh I see ok that would make more sense, I was probably overthinking the process and I guess it would make sense that she was more then capable to handling the situation.

Alexioos95 said:
I don't think it got ever mentionned , but i doubt she can.
The process of switching bodies is said to be "extremely smooth" , and Nasu even says "too smooth". (Which is why she can lose some of her memory

I could imagine it just something like falling asleep then waking up again but in a different environment, but that info about loosing memories is good to know.

Alexioos95 said:
She's originally a character from Mahoutsukai no Yoru , and its in it that we learn the more about her. (She's literally the antagonist...)
The protagonist of the story is her sister , Aoko , the teacher of Shiki from Tsukihime.

Oh wow so Touko's story goes even further back then the Kara no Kyoukai movies, I've never even heard of Mahoutsukai no Yoru until you mentioned it. I'll add it to my watchlist and might watch it after finishing the rest of the Kara no Kyoukai movies cus I'm genuinely interested about more of the universe. The trailer looks interesting as is.

Alexioos95 said:
We don't know if she's the "real" one in it too tho.
Basically , she fled her home a few years before Mahoutsukai no Yoru , and there is high chances she became a puppet when she was far from home.
It's also possible she became a puppet after leaving the Clock Tower. (Or maybe she was not one until this Kara no Kyoukai Movie...)

Ok I'll keep that in mind, I'm open to learn more about Touko's backstory since so far we aren't given to much info about it in the Kara no Kyoukai Movie's besides her job, a bit of her life in the Clock Tower and her expertise in puppets.

"yabe."

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Jul 31, 2023 3:39 PM

#508

FZREMAKE

Offline

Jan 2021

5014

@Code0018

I just watched the remix movie (Summary of movie 1 to 6 in chronological order) and this is where I noticed that Touko, during the final moments of Araya, said that Enjou's escape from the spiral was unexpected since the field he created had holes in it. This means that his escape was pretty much an unexpected event. Now how or when does he program Tomoe to go after or maybe somehow be attracted to Shiki is something that I want to know.

If you enjoyed the time you wasted, then its not a waste of time.

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