Attack on Titan
is the rumbling an act of self defense to you? you can ignore the law if you want
| self defense according to law should always be proportional to the threat and no way world genocide is proportional to the potential island genocide of paradis so thoughts? should we still call the rumbling an act of self defense? if not then what should it be called? |
| If the whole world was against Paradis and to extent it was, then it would be self-defense. Numbers here do not matter; if five gunmen were looking to kill only me, I would be in the right to kill all five of those gunmen in turn. It is one life against five, but I am not the aggressor in this case. It does matter who starts and who is continuing the battle. However, Eren essentially commits genocide, and to say his motivation were solely to defend Paradis is to miss his dialogue regarding his resentment and rage towards the outside world. His motives first and foremost are much more complex than what people have portrayed it as. So here is the first reason I do not agree with the self-defense claim. One could say that the beliefs that condemn Eldians are so widespread as to enable the aggression against the Paradis population, but this equates beliefs with actions from those beliefs. Understandable, but I disagree that beliefs alone are grounds for killing. I don't believe in executing Neo-Nazis and white supremacists for their beliefs, for example. Now do I think those ideas are dangerous? Yes, but I also recognize that in a free society, people can indeed hold those beliefs and not act on them, and that people can overcome those beliefs. This brings us to one of the main things about the rumbling, and that is the difference between Eren being justified and Eren being morally in the right. Eren is justified in his resentment and the idea that he would be permanently eradicating all threats to Paradis if he destroyed the outside world. However, he is not morally in the right. Imagine if say, a Jewish person or a black person killed every white supremacist and Neo-Nazi in the world, and if he then extends it to everyone who could potentially hold their beliefs. I see the logic here in wholesale extermination of everyone who disagrees with the idea of my existence, but I also don't agree that it is morally right, and it kind of proves Marley's point that Eldians are dangerous. So no, Eren is not justified in killing people simply because of their attitudes towards Paradis. A civilian with anti-Eldian sentiments in not equal to a soldier acting on those sentiments, nor do I think he is in the right to try to exterminate all potential future threats either. For at what point do we kill so much for our own survival that our survival becomes a blight on humanity? I am only fine with killing people who are actively trying to kill me, rather than people who simply do not like me. So I certainly think Eren overstepped his boundaries when he began killing not only armies, but rending entire civilizations to dust, when he killed people merely on the basis of their identities merely being "not Eldians from Paradis". This is genocide, and we ought to recognize that not everyone who held or has held anti-Eldian beliefs is urging for genocide either; opinions are much more individual. |
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Reply to JaysonNnN
PeripheralVision said:
If the whole world was against Paradis and to extent it was, then it would be self-defense. Numbers here do not matter; if five gunmen were looking to kill only me, I would be in the right to kill all five of those gunmen in turn. It is one life against five, but I am not the aggressor in this case. It does matter who starts and who is continuing the battle.
However, Eren essentially commits genocide, and to say his motivation were solely to defend Paradis is to miss his dialogue regarding his resentment and rage towards the outside world. His motives first and foremost are much more complex than what people have portrayed it as.
So here is the first reason I do not agree with the self-defense claim. One could say that the beliefs that condemn Eldians are so widespread as to enable the aggression against the Paradis population, but this equates beliefs with actions from those beliefs. Understandable, but I disagree that beliefs alone are grounds for killing. I don't believe in executing Neo-Nazis and white supremacists for their beliefs, for example.
Now do I think those ideas are dangerous? Yes, but I also recognize that in a free society, people can indeed hold those beliefs and not act on them, and that people can overcome those beliefs. This brings us to one of the main things about the rumbling, and that is the difference between Eren being justified and Eren being morally in the right. Eren is justified in his resentment and the idea that he would be permanently eradicating all threats to Paradis if he destroyed the outside world. However, he is not morally in the right. Imagine if say, a Jewish person or a black person killed every white supremacist and Neo-Nazi in the world, and if he then extends it to everyone who could potentially hold their beliefs.
I see the logic here in wholesale extermination of everyone who disagrees with the idea of my existence, but I also don't agree that it is morally right, and it kind of proves Marley's point that Eldians are dangerous.
So no, Eren is not justified in killing people simply because of their attitudes towards Paradis. A civilian with anti-Eldian sentiments in not equal to a soldier acting on those sentiments, nor do I think he is in the right to try to exterminate all potential future threats either. For at what point do we kill so much for our own survival that our survival becomes a blight on humanity?
I am only fine with killing people who are actively trying to kill me, rather than people who simply do not like me.
So I certainly think Eren overstepped his boundaries when he began killing not only armies, but rending entire civilizations to dust, when he killed people merely on the basis of their identities merely being "not Eldians from Paradis". This is genocide, and we ought to recognize that not everyone who held or has held anti-Eldian beliefs is urging for genocide either; opinions are much more individual.
If the whole world was against Paradis and to extent it was, then it would be self-defense. Numbers here do not matter; if five gunmen were looking to kill only me, I would be in the right to kill all five of those gunmen in turn. It is one life against five, but I am not the aggressor in this case. It does matter who starts and who is continuing the battle.
However, Eren essentially commits genocide, and to say his motivation were solely to defend Paradis is to miss his dialogue regarding his resentment and rage towards the outside world. His motives first and foremost are much more complex than what people have portrayed it as.
So here is the first reason I do not agree with the self-defense claim. One could say that the beliefs that condemn Eldians are so widespread as to enable the aggression against the Paradis population, but this equates beliefs with actions from those beliefs. Understandable, but I disagree that beliefs alone are grounds for killing. I don't believe in executing Neo-Nazis and white supremacists for their beliefs, for example.
Now do I think those ideas are dangerous? Yes, but I also recognize that in a free society, people can indeed hold those beliefs and not act on them, and that people can overcome those beliefs. This brings us to one of the main things about the rumbling, and that is the difference between Eren being justified and Eren being morally in the right. Eren is justified in his resentment and the idea that he would be permanently eradicating all threats to Paradis if he destroyed the outside world. However, he is not morally in the right. Imagine if say, a Jewish person or a black person killed every white supremacist and Neo-Nazi in the world, and if he then extends it to everyone who could potentially hold their beliefs.
I see the logic here in wholesale extermination of everyone who disagrees with the idea of my existence, but I also don't agree that it is morally right, and it kind of proves Marley's point that Eldians are dangerous.
So no, Eren is not justified in killing people simply because of their attitudes towards Paradis. A civilian with anti-Eldian sentiments in not equal to a soldier acting on those sentiments, nor do I think he is in the right to try to exterminate all potential future threats either. For at what point do we kill so much for our own survival that our survival becomes a blight on humanity?
I am only fine with killing people who are actively trying to kill me, rather than people who simply do not like me.
So I certainly think Eren overstepped his boundaries when he began killing not only armies, but rending entire civilizations to dust, when he killed people merely on the basis of their identities merely being "not Eldians from Paradis". This is genocide, and we ought to recognize that not everyone who held or has held anti-Eldian beliefs is urging for genocide either; opinions are much more individual.
Well, the whole world want to kill and destroy Paradis so... ?
JaysonNnN said: Well, the whole world want to kill and destroy Paradis so... ? I already address this with my Neo-Nazis and White Supremacist analogy. Understandable, but I disagree that beliefs alone are grounds for killing. I don't believe in executing Neo-Nazis and white supremacists for their beliefs, for example. Now do I think those ideas are dangerous? Yes, but I also recognize that in a free society, people can indeed hold those beliefs and not act on them, and that people can overcome those beliefs. This brings us to one of the main things about the rumbling, and that is the difference between Eren being justified and Eren being morally in the right. Eren is justified in his resentment and the idea that he would be permanently eradicating all threats to Paradis if he destroyed the outside world. However, he is not morally in the right. Imagine if say, a Jewish person or a black person killed every white supremacist and Neo-Nazi in the world, and if he then extends it to everyone who could potentially hold their beliefs. Belief by themselves is not a valid grounds for killing, even if those beliefs concerns attitudes such as those of the white supremacist or Neo-Nazis, and ergo beliefs regarding the Paradis Eldians. I could want someone dead without actively escalating it. Even then, the idea that everyone wants to kill Eldians to the same degree is to treat the outside world as a monolith, and I doubt this was the intention here. Eren targeted others solely on the basis of their nationality because of how it tied to a widely held attitude regardless of the average citizen's ability or even interest in actively engaging in a genocide towards the Eldians. Does being a German in 1940s Germany alone justify the Allies nuking Berlin? I don't think so. Civilians are still civilians, despite whatever shitty ideals they may hold. Life has an intrinsic value that is not determine solely by utility. So I see Eren as similar to the Jewish fighters who wanted to enact Nakam. Justified by logic but still not morally in the right. If you take morality out of it, Eren makes perfect sense, but optimizing survival has never taken into account being a good person. What more, this completely overlook what militaries even are; state apparatuses in order to project force externally towards other nations. With Armin's original plan, these state apparatuses would be crush, and to a large extent the state of Marley would not even exist. It is hard to find when the entire army is destroyed and a country's entire economy and industry is reduced to rubble. Tragic, but this is still less severe than killing everyone outside of the walls. I would argue this is sort of the moral dilemma that Attack on Titan is tackling. If you could finish politics by simply killing everyone hostile to you, be it a country or an entire group of people who want you dead, is it moral or sensible to do so? Where do we draw the line when it comes to taking out the opposition? What more, I think Eren is supposed to seen as in the wrong here; both Armin and Mikasa turn on him when realizing what his plans actually is. It should be telling here that the two other main characters disproves of Eren's decision to wipe out everyone outside the walls. Every person who approved of Eren's action has made the assumption that Marley would have still existed in the same capacity or that their descendants of the survivors would inevitably rise up and somehow finish the job. I don't think this is a realistic scenario, because this underestimates the devastation of having so many people killed. Supporting Eren's actions of wholesale slaughter is all based off the possibility of Marley eventually getting better technology to combat the Titans. A possibility...I don't think that is any moral justification at all. |
PeripheralVisionMar 18, 4:14 PM
| |
| There are no laws of war in AOT, even irl military forces wouldn't give a shit about laws during an all-out war like this. As for self-defense: Eldians didn't attack Marley for a long time, but Marley was constantly attacking Eldians by sending Titans and so on, so the rumbling can be seen as a counterattack, but if the magnitude was justified is another question. |
ZarutakuMar 19, 3:59 PM
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Reply to Zarutaku
There are no laws of war in AOT, even irl military forces wouldn't give a shit about laws during an all-out war like this.
As for self-defense: Eldians didn't attack Marley for a long time, but Marley was constantly attacking Eldians by sending Titans and so on, so the rumbling can be seen as a counterattack, but if the magnitude was justified is another question.
As for self-defense: Eldians didn't attack Marley for a long time, but Marley was constantly attacking Eldians by sending Titans and so on, so the rumbling can be seen as a counterattack, but if the magnitude was justified is another question.
| @Zarutaku ye im just saying in real life there is legal definition of self defense so people saying the rumbling is self defense should mind what kind of definition of self defense they are talking about |
Reply to Justforseven1
How is this even an argument, no it cannot ever be considered self defense because the majority of its casualties were civilians. Never is the one sided slaughter and massacre of the innocent justifiable as self defense.
| @Justforseven1 On a superficial level this sounds right, but it needs more detailed evaluation. From Eldian's perspective the Marley civilians support the Marley economy and government with their workforce and therefore directly or indirectly support the Marley military, naturally many Eldians see them as enemies instead of innocent. From Marley civilian perspective many of them approve of the extermination of Eldians which makes them justified targets, but even those who don't and just want to distance themselves from the war, still don't have any other choice than to partake in Marley economy which results in support of the government and military. This is not just fiction, it's a common dilemma irl too. |
ZarutakuMar 20, 5:24 AM
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Reply to Justforseven1
Zarutaku said:
@Justforseven1 On a superficial level this sounds right, but it needs more detailed evaluation.
From Eldian's perspective the Marley civilians support the Marley economy and government with their workforce and therefore directly or indirectly support the Marley military, naturally many Eldians see them as enemies instead of innocent.
From Marley civilian perspective many of them approve of the extermination of Eldians which makes them justified targets, but even those who don't and just want to distance themselves from the war, still don't have any other choice than to partake in Marley economy which results in support of the government and military.
This is not just fiction, it's a common dilemma irl too.
@Justforseven1 On a superficial level this sounds right, but it needs more detailed evaluation.
From Eldian's perspective the Marley civilians support the Marley economy and government with their workforce and therefore directly or indirectly support the Marley military, naturally many Eldians see them as enemies instead of innocent.
From Marley civilian perspective many of them approve of the extermination of Eldians which makes them justified targets, but even those who don't and just want to distance themselves from the war, still don't have any other choice than to partake in Marley economy which results in support of the government and military.
This is not just fiction, it's a common dilemma irl too.
Doesn’t matter how they see them, in ever court of law in the world and in almost every religion they are innocent. It doesn’t matter what the actions of their government. You cannot punish the innocent for the sins of the guilty it’s not that complicated
| @Justforseven1 The problem is to determine who actually is innocent and how to avoid killing them while killing the real enemy. Are people who support the enemy innocent or guilty? Should they be spared together with the enemy or taken as collateral damage? That are common dilemmas for decision makers during war. If you say it doesn't matter how they see it because law X or religious belief Y then they will simply not care, that is the harsh reality of war. |
This dance is the pinnacle of human achievement. |
Reply to Zarutaku
@Justforseven1 The problem is to determine who actually is innocent and how to avoid killing them while killing the real enemy.
Are people who support the enemy innocent or guilty? Should they be spared together with the enemy or taken as collateral damage?
That are common dilemmas for decision makers during war.
If you say it doesn't matter how they see it because law X or religious belief Y then they will simply not care, that is the harsh reality of war.
Are people who support the enemy innocent or guilty? Should they be spared together with the enemy or taken as collateral damage?
That are common dilemmas for decision makers during war.
If you say it doesn't matter how they see it because law X or religious belief Y then they will simply not care, that is the harsh reality of war.
| @Zarutaku destroying all military bases all over the world is good already and lessen killings also the political message of world genocide and morality like utilitarianism is best for interpreting the show imo |
| tbh I kind of see it more as a retaliation for everything done to the people of Paradis rather than self defense. |
 |
| I guess it all boils down to how you look at the Gaza Genocide happening now. Zionazism is pretty evil and weaponises antisemitism to commit another genocide. |
| End Zionazism |
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