Agnostics of MAL, what is your favorite religion, and have you considered converting to that religion?

byakugami said:
If you think conservatives are more collectivist than leftists, we've reached a point where further discussion is pointless. Practically any conservative or any leftist would tell you that's ridiculous.

It is possible to oppose abortion on libertarian grounds (see Murray Rothbard, Ayn Rand, Walter Block, etc.) and I have some respect for that, but the vast majority of the time, when someone supports abortion, it's either because they're an abject feminist who thinks "women's rights" negate anyone else's rights, or because they've chosen to assume that fetuses aren't people, despite all the evidence. In my view, abortion is clearly morally indefensible in the overwhelming majority of cases, because the women chose to have sex, and the fetus didn't choose to come into existence.

Frag- said:
Both are collective.
Conservatives believe that the power of their group should be opposed to other groups, and not for the individual. So they're collective.

Feminism or not, you should not be telling people what they should do. You're not the one who consider when the life starts (also because it already started).
NO ONE chose to exist, It's the mother's choice, not yours.
Your views on abortion are mainly surpersitious, and not ethic/rational.

byakugami said:
Why should you or anyone else be able to decide when life starts? At what age do you think people should be legally defended from being killed, and why is your opinion more valid than mine?

Frag- said:
I can decide a sperm or an egg is a life, why not? People are murdered when they are PEOPLE, not 2 or 3 cells.
It's the mother's property, if you believe in property rights.

Oh well, I don't know why I'm still here and this came to be an abortion topic.

byakugami said:
I do believe in property rights. I do not believe people are property.

You are arguing tautologically and as such seem to have a disturbingly tenuous grasp on basic logic. If "people are murdered when they are PEOPLE" was the best you could think of, why didn't you just give up and post somewhere else?

traed said:

Sufism - is pretty cool with their affinity for music and dancing as a type of mystical experience and I think Rumi's poetry is great. They are mostly pretty chill despite being super religious. Looks like it would be fun to be part of one of their circles. Only problem with them is I don't think I agree how they think Muhammad is a perfect example of an ideal human despite that there are some non Muslims Sufis.

Frag- said:
If someone is a parasitic invader of you property you have the right to expel them by force. And now a fetus that can't live by itself.

I don't know what's your point, you're the one who started talking about that.

Yarub said:

Sufism isn't even a religion. It was and will always be part of Islam. They're basically Islamic Mystics.

traed said:

It's technically it's own religion because they accept non-Muslims into their group. There is a small number of non-Islamic Sufis as far as Im aware. It's both a part of Islam and a branch off of it's own. Isn't it fair to say it has those two sides to it?

byakugami said:
You keep switching back and forth between claiming it's not a person and claiming it's an "invader". I wish you would pick one argument and stick with it.

But to address your latest point, I'd say that the "invader" is there through no fault of its own and should not be punished with death, and that the mother "invited" it there by intentionally engaging in an action that she knew had a good chance of creating a new person.

Ramkec said:


I think its fake about that part where you heard there is non Muslim Sufis.

Its pretty much impossible. The whole Sufi Zirk is pretty much their way of praying and worshipping. The stuff they sing are mostly praises on Allah, the Prophet and the verses from the Quran. What would the point be of a non Muslim in one such gathering.

Also most Sufi groups are part of the Sunni Islam branch.

traed said:


It's not fake. In a later post I expanded on that. I should have worded it better. It's not all sufi groups accept non Muslims just a small number of certain ones do and even then they are a minority among them. Well Allah is also the Arabic word for God and not only the name of God is it not? Also some people would rather try to experience god before jumping to conclusions of the attributes of a god, which includes religion and this is fairly normal in mysticism and esoteric religions. So such persons may try various paths to god through various techniques found in various religions.