FlameseeK said: WrongPriest said: It's funny because I feel the same way about HF. Except in the reverse. It's so simple, yet still misinterpreted so badly lol In what sense? HF is pretty straightforward - it's a really fucked up situation which leads to 2 tragical ouctomes: (1) Abandoning his ideal - Saving Sakura, sacrificing other people's lives and possibily even his own in the process. (2) Embracing his ideal - Turning into a cold-hearted superhero and killing Sakura, pretty much "killing" his own self in order to become a machine. How do you think people misinterpret that? There isn't much discussion about it as of now because obviously people haven't watched it, but I don't see much room for misinterpretation Well, just look at CP. And Dragon_Slayerx |
The sun is a deadly laser |
mira-lala said: FlameseeK said: [/spoiler][spoiler] In what sense? HF is pretty straightforward - it's a really fucked up situation which leads to 2 tragical ouctomes: (1) Abandoning his ideal - Saving Sakura, sacrificing other people's lives and possibily even his own in the process. (2) Embracing his ideal - Turning into a cold-hearted superhero and killing Sakura, pretty much "killing" his own self in order to become a machine. How do you think people misinterpret that? There isn't much discussion about it as of now because obviously people haven't watched it, but I don't see much room for misinterpretation Well, just look at CP. And Dragon_Slayerx Good point... lol |
| This civil war is tearing us apart ;; we need the new season to start so we have secondaries to condemn. :) |
 |
FlameseeK said: WrongPriest said: It's funny because I feel the same way about HF. Except in the reverse. It's so simple, yet still misinterpreted so badly lol In what sense? HF is pretty straightforward - it's a really fucked up situation which leads to 2 tragical ouctomes: (1) Abandoning his ideal - Saving Sakura, sacrificing other people's lives and possibily even his own in the process. (2) Embracing his ideal - Turning into a cold-hearted superhero and killing Sakura, pretty much "killing" his own self in order to become a machine. How do you think people misinterpret that? There isn't much discussion about it as of now because obviously people haven't watched it, but I don't see much room for misinterpretation Agreed. HF Shirou literally has the only choice - which parts of himself does he sacrifice and which will remain. Either way he becomes less than before. I am not misinterpreting I am just disagreeing with the very idea of such a dual choice and feel that there's a complete lack of build up for us or Shirou to care about Sakura beyond that he HAS TO for this plotpoint to work. MercifulPriest said: Well, I'm not going to try starting any arguments since it should be clear by now that we are completely opposed in this regard... ...but still, realistically, it doesn't change the fact that Shirou's jumping into danger after danger, even if he has support. By definition, involving himself in dangers that threaten his life should be unhealthy. So on what planet that is considered healthy, I have no idea. I could go on and on, but I'm just going to stop right here if that's okay with you. Even if we discuss this, since our views on HF are so different from each other, I get the feeling that we won't get anywhere~ ^^ On every planet? you can't avoid danger. Our life is based on risk and reward. It is WHY you take the risk that matters. You can shelter off from the world in a small space like HF Shirou but it is NOT life. It is a prison. HF Shirou is in a prison of his own making. He chose to be less for less and thus all that was more was stripped down from him. Emiya Shirou was both physically and mentally destroyed and the remaining puppet(funny that HF would chose that analogy) will life off his life with girl he loves just like thousands of other people in the world. Essentially meaning that the INDIVIDUAL never develop and we have another drone. Even True End Shirou exists mainly so Sakura would have a happier ending, while in reality there's even LESS of Shirou than in prologue, which fits since Shirou/Sakura is the MOST destructive out of three pairings. As I talked before if Shirou/Saber is about enabling Shirou towards his path and Rin/Shirou balancing his path into feasible mature one, Sakura/Shirou is all about destroying each other. I think I said it before but in terms of how to live out your life(not pacing), if Fate is pushing the accelerator to the limit till you drive smiling into a wall, HF is constantly hitting the brakes and driving on the same spot, while UBW is driving forwards with a consistent speed. Yet again yeah our worldview seems to be WILDLY different so I doubt we will agree with this. You seem to believe that the world is driven by selfish egoism and worst things happening and nothing good ever coming out of it, while I believe that the world is balanced, with selflessness being rewarding and at the same dangerous and everything, good or bad having their own risks and rewards. |
AhenshihaelJan 24, 2015 8:16 AM
 |
mira-lala said: Well, actually no. People, normal humans that are not Emiya Shirou, lay in the realm between selflessness and selfishness. They want to help the Ebola crisis because 1) They want to protect their family and country 2) They want to help others. Selfless and Selfish. But Emiya Shirou does not think like a human anymore. His ideals won't let him to be on the middle ground. He either saves the ones he loves, or saves the strangers. It is always a 10 for 100 thing. He saved Sakura and the rest for those people. In UBW, he couldn't save Illya, Saber, and Sakura. In Fate, he can't save his self. If you are saying Shirou has no selfish wish, then you are wrong. He wants to be happy like Kerry is the moment Kerry saves him. That's a hidden reason that he discovered during UBW. And plz don't take HF as an typical example. It's just an extreme situation. There is no 2 clear choices like that in real life. Lol, now, I guess HF is the best answer. In Fate and UBW, he is still following his destructive ideal. In HF, he has no need to follow that ideal, and can live as a normal human. He's already said that he'll forget, so he won't regret. There is no best answer, it's just which answer you agree with. Don't be like: Oh, Merc's writing is so good, and i agree with her, so clearly her opinion is the best. |
CookingPriest said: That post is mostly superficial bullshit though that can be trimmed down into paragraph or two so meh. It is just made harder to read so people would not debate the points in it. ...uh, on the contrary, I did my best to stick to the point and explain my own thoughts without going off-topic. But I guess it doesn't matter, huh, since whatever I say and think is bound to be wrong, superficial, and excessively repetitive to you as I understand nothing about Fate/stay night. Though you know, I actually love debates. If people disagree with an idea I have and wish to discuss it with me, I welcome that, so long as they don't resort to insults and things like "tl;dr you suck". The reason why a lot of what I write tend to be long is just because I don't want people to misunderstand my point of view on things. Which they frequently do, over and over. Your opinions are fine, Fai, but it would be nice if you stopped assuming things. chickenonthepan said: MercifulPriest said: ... Well, while it's human nature to want to be happy, it's also in human nature to help others. Of course that's true. And this world is filled with people who're willing to help others. Not just the volunteers you mentioned, but practically throughout all of history, there've been people like that. People who put their lives on the line so that they can save others. Though, it's the very fact that these people are willing to throw away their lives for the sake of others that makes them admirable. Shirou especially. Just because something isn't 'human' doesn't mean it's wrong. While I believe that the HF answer is the most human option, I never said that the UBW answer is wrong. I'm sure the world would benefit a lot from that kind of person, but as a consequence, he'd suffer badly in a way his HF self wouldn't. ... It may be bad to be a hero, but it's not wrong. Mainly, my point was that 'if Shirou becomes a hero, he will suffer badly', and you supported that by bringing up volunteers and heroes. In fact, it's even worse for Shirou in a way.. At least the volunteers have an end goal, a desire to save lives and maybe go back home once it's all over. But Shirou's following an ideal without a clear result, so. It's just that *points to the title* I personally don't agree with it. For example, how many volunteers who went to Africa during the Ebola crisis left behind their family and friends, knowing that they may never see them again? It's a beautiful sacrifice for the sake of strangers, upholding human rights, but that doesn't change the fact that people had to die to make things right, throwing away their own dreams in the process. I don't think it's the most human thing to do since, by nature, we should prioritize our own life, goals, and bonds over others'... ...but that's not to say trying to be a hero is wrong. chickenonthepan said: Don't be like: Oh, Merc's writing is so good, and i agree with her, so clearly her opinion is the best. Mm. I expressed my own idea, but I'm pretty sure it has flaws of its own, and I'd hate for it to be used to dismiss others. I get that everyone has their own way of seeing things~ |
CarenPriestessJan 24, 2015 8:24 AM
 |
chickenonthepan said: Don't be like: Oh, Merc's writing is so good, and i agree with her, so clearly her opinion is the best. Do you guys have psychic powers that allow you to make out the poster's gender? lol |
| You know, if you guys could channel some of this effort into typing a 15 page essay I have due, I'd really appreciate it :D |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
MercifulPriest said: CookingPriest said: That post is mostly superficial bullshit though that can be trimmed down into paragraph or two so meh. It is just made harder to read so people would not debate the points in it. ...uh, on the contrary, I did my best to stick to the point and explain my own thoughts without going off-topic. If you really believe that, then please address at least one of the points I brought up and show everyone else why it's all so wrong, off-context, and excessively repetitive, since I apparently understand nothing about Fate/stay night. It should be easy since it's mostly superficial, right? And I actually love debates, you know. If people disagree with an idea I have and wish to discuss it with me, I welcome that, so long as they don't resort to insults and things like "tl;dr you suck". The reason why a lot of what I write tend to be long is just because I don't want people to misunderstand my point of view on things. Your opinions are fine, Fai, but it would be nice if you stopped assuming things. Opinions themselves are fine, But your posts have a LOT of coating while getting to the point and unless someone is talking about some very deep show(ex: most of ikuhara's works), I doubt anyone would bother to read more than first two or three paragraphs out of ~20. Yet again it feels less like a debate piece and more like a literary monologue or an intro to a university lecture and picking out WHAT to answer to in that whole wall of text is too tiring to even bother sometimes. Not lecturing you just saying that 20-30 paragraph posts usually make it quite hard to keep up with discussion, because by the time someone actually writes an answer post, everyone else is already moving on to talk about dancing bears or some shit. |
|
Mickdrew said: You know, if you guys could channel some of this effort into typing a 15 page essay I have due, I'd really appreciate it :D Oh? An essay on what--- *shot* |
|
chickenonthepan said: Don't be like: Oh, Merc's writing is so good, and i agree with her, so clearly her opinion is the best. This is clearly opinion-based. Becoming more and more like Fai each post...Despicable. Mickdrew said: You know, if you guys could channel some of this effort into typing a 15 page essay I have due, I'd really appreciate it :D Well, no. I need that for the second chapters I haven't gotten around to. MercifulPriest said: Mickdrew said: You know, if you guys could channel some of this effort into typing a 15 page essay I have due, I'd really appreciate it :D Oh? An essay on what--- *shot* No! Merci, don't leave me! *Get out Avalon* Seibah, come here! Nao! *Gets out food* |
mira-pyonJan 24, 2015 8:31 AM
The sun is a deadly laser |
MercifulPriest said: Just because something isn't 'human' doesn't mean it's wrong. While I believe that the HF answer is the most human option, I never said that the UBW answer is wrong. I'm sure the world would benefit a lot from that kind of person, but as a consequence, he'd suffer badly in a way his HF self wouldn't. As I said, the decision of the volunteers are not less "human" than yours. Because if you say it that way, then you are insulting the people who did more for the world than you. If you say HF answer is the most "common" opinion, then I agree. But saying it is more "human" is bs. So you say that the volunteers choose to suffer, and that's bad. They better stay at home protecting their family like HF Shirou? I can't find a word... It may be bad to be a hero, but it's not wrong. Mainly, my point was that 'if Shirou becomes a hero, he will suffer badly', and you supported that by bringing up volunteers and heroes. They choose that path. If they die, they will die in satisfaction. And they don't consider that suffering. It's just what they want to do. They live the life that they can be proud of. Partly thanks to them, you and your family are safe. And you are saying that it's bad for them to do that? But Shirou's following an ideal - an ideal that means, instead of working to stop one epidemic, he should work to stop every single epidemic, along with every war and every other conflict, natural or artificial. UBW Shirou will think and act more realistically than Fate Shirou, so he won't do anything too unreasonable, but he'll still involve himself if there's even the slightest amount of hope he can offer. Well, the point of UBW is that he knows he cannot save everyone. He knows his limit. His line to Saber: "Sorry Saber, but I cannot save you" says it all. (But in fact, he saved Saber) I don't think it's the most human thing to do since, by nature, we should prioritize our own life, goals, and bonds over others'... Then they are something more than human then. Saints, maybe? |
Just_ChickenJan 24, 2015 8:46 AM
chickenonthepan said: MercifulPriest said: Just because something isn't 'human' doesn't mean it's wrong. While I believe that the HF answer is the most human option, I never said that the UBW answer is wrong. I'm sure the world would benefit a lot from that kind of person, but as a consequence, he'd suffer badly in a way his HF self wouldn't. As I said, the decision of the volunteers are not less "human" than yours. Because if you say it that way, then you are insulting the people who did more for the world than you. If you say HF answer is the most "common" opinion, then I agree. But saying it is more "human" is bs. So you say that the volunteers choose to suffer, and that's bad. They better stay at home protecting their family like HF Shirou? I can't find a word... It may be bad to be a hero, but it's not wrong. Mainly, my point was that 'if Shirou becomes a hero, he will suffer badly', and you supported that by bringing up volunteers and heroes. They choose that path. If they die, they will die in satisfaction. And they don't consider that suffering. It's just what they want to do. Partly thanks to them, you and your family are safe. And you are saying that it's bad for them to do that? But Shirou's following an ideal - an ideal that means, instead of working to stop one epidemic, he should work to stop every single epidemic, along with every war and every other conflict, natural or artificial. UBW Shirou will think and act more realistically than Fate Shirou, so he won't do anything too unreasonable, but he'll still involve himself if there's even the slightest amount of hope he can offer. Well, the point of UBW is that he knows he cannot save everyone. He knows his limit. His line to Saber: "Sorry Saber, but I cannot save you" says it all. (But in fact, he saved Saber) I don't think it's the most human thing to do since, by nature, we should prioritize our own life, goals, and bonds over others'... Then they are something more than human then. Saints, maybe? He didn't save her, the conflict between him and Archer did. In this case, anyway. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
CookingPriest said: Opinions themselves are fine, But your posts have a LOT of coating while getting to the point and unless someone is talking about some very deep show(ex: most of ikuhara's works), I doubt anyone would bother to read more than first two or three paragraphs out of ~20. Yet again it feels less like a debate piece and more like a literary monologue or an intro to a university lecture and picking out WHAT to answer to in that whole wall of text is too tiring to even bother sometimes. Not lecturing you just saying that 20-30 paragraph posts usually make it quite hard to keep up with discussion, because by the time someone actually writes an answer post, everyone else is already moving on to talk about dancing bears or some shit. Well, rather than coating, it's more just like I try to explain the point I have in detail. If I say something yet there's nothing to back it up, then other people may misunderstand badly. If I just said "HF answer is the most human" right from the start and left it at that, I'd appear a little too singleminded and opinionated. I see plenty of people like that around, and frankly, it annoys me. It's happened a lot to me too in the past, on other forums, and I got into a lot of unnecessary arguments where 'me explaining myself afterwards' was instead seen as 'me making up shit'. But I get that a problem still arises if I write lengthy essays, and I apologize for the things I write being tiring. If anything, I can assure you that I mean well, and as I've said many, many times now, I do respect your opinion, even if I can't bring myself to agree with it in the slightest. If there's a chance for other people to respect my own opinion (whether or not they agree), even if dancing bears come into the picture sometime later, then that's fine by me. I wouldn't mind, since that's what the internet is like all the time. |
|
mira-lala said: He didn't save her, the conflict between him and Archer did. In this case, anyway. Still doesn't change the fact that Shirou saved Saber, in a way. |
| How can one not admire what Emiya Shirou decides upon in UBW, even after facing Archer? He's inspirational, but also realistic. Better than in HF where he decides to only live for Sakura, and not bothering with the "cold, hard reality of loss and suffering." |
-kV- said: How can one not admire what Emiya Shirou decides upon in UBW, even after facing Archer? He's inspirational, but also realistic. Better than in HF where he decides to only live for Sakura, and not bothering with the "cold, hard reality of loss and suffering." Actually, no. Yes, he is realistic, but so it HF Shirou. Any mother will be willing to risk everyone else's life for their child's. So they are unrealistic and delusional, now? In HF, he doesn't live only for Sakura. He lives for those he loves. He faces the cold hard reality of loss and suffering throughout HF. He kills Saber, and he loses Illya. That is some fucking loss. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
| huh, it's looking as though HF might catch UBW yet. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
chickenonthepan said: mira-lala said: He didn't save her, the conflict between him and Archer did. In this case, anyway. Still doesn't change the fact that Shirou saved Saber, in a way. Literally just nitpicking =3 |
The sun is a deadly laser |
-kV- said: the "cold, hard reality of loss and suffering." HF is an extreme situation, really. Reality is hash, yes. But the hash reality in UBW is A LOT closer to real life than HF. |
chickenonthepan said: As I said, the decision of the volunteers are not less "human" than yours. Because if you say it that way, then you are insulting the people who did more for the world than you. If you say HF answer is the most "common" opinion, then I agree. But saying it is more "human" is bs. So you say that the volunteers choose to suffer, and that's bad. They better stay at home protecting their family like HF Shirou? I can't find a word... Wait, wait, WHAT? I'm sorry, you appear to severely misunderstand, and I'm actually a little hurt here. My point was that I, personally, me myself and I do not agree with it since they bring the suffering upon themselves, but that it is not the wrong choice. If they succeed, that'd be better than had they done nothing, but if they fail, that'd be worse instead. We can never really predict the future, and either way, it's their own choice. Admittedly, you are right a bit in that calling their decisions anything less than 'human', but I'm not sure what better word to describe it. Self-preservation? Partly thanks to them, you and your family are safe. And you are saying that it's bad for them to do that? I did say that they'll suffer badly (or at least there's a high chance for it) But I also said, in that same paragraph, that it's not wrong. Please, don't get the wrong idea. I don't think it's the most human thing to do since, by nature, we should prioritize our own life, goals, and bonds over others'... Then they are something more than human then. Saints, maybe? I know that you intended this to be a stab at me, but actually, that's exactly what I was thinking at the time. Both you and Fai seem to be mistaken about one critical thing of mine, and just so we're clear, it's that - just because I don't agree with something, doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. |
CarenPriestessJan 24, 2015 9:04 AM
|
mira-lala said: Actually, no. Yes, he is realistic, but so it HF Shirou. Any mother will be willing to risk everyone else's life for their child's. So they are unrealistic and delusional, now? Uhm, you know, if that mother starting to kill people, she will definitely be arrested... |
chickenonthepan said: mira-lala said: Actually, no. Yes, he is realistic, but so it HF Shirou. Any mother will be willing to risk everyone else's life for their child's. So they are unrealistic and delusional, now? Uhm, you know, if that mother starting to kill people, she will definitely be arrested... Not if a gang took her child hostage and tried to kill her when she tried to get it back :/ |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
chickenonthepan said: mira-lala said: Actually, no. Yes, he is realistic, but so it HF Shirou. Any mother will be willing to risk everyone else's life for their child's. So they are unrealistic and delusional, now? Uhm, you know, if that mother starting to kill people, she will definitely be arrested... I said risk, not kill. Shirou didn't directly kill any innocent humans in HF. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
MercifulPriest said: Both you and Fai seem to be mistaken about one critical thing of mine, and just so we're clear, it's that - just because I don't agree with something, doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. Well, I just simply disagree with you and argue with you. When you voice an opinion, you should prepare to be put into a debate... |
mira-lala said: Actually, no. Yes, he is realistic, but so it HF Shirou. Any mother will be willing to risk everyone else's life for their child's. So they are unrealistic and delusional, now? What? I didn't say HF Shirou was unrealistic and delusional? I was talking about UBW Shirou specifically. In HF, he doesn't live only for Sakura. He lives for those he loves. He faces the cold hard reality of loss and suffering throughout HF. He kills Saber, and he loses Illya. That is some fucking loss. Yeah, it was destructive and he made sacrifices, but he arrives at the end of it only living for close loved ones. At the end of the day, he's still only living for them, and letting the greater world to its own whims (unless it happens to immediately threaten his loved ones). There's nothing wrong that, considering millions upon millions of people live that type of life. But's that's why I admire UBW Shirou. |
mira-lala said: chickenonthepan said: Uhm, you know, if that mother starting to kill people, she will definitely be arrested... I said risk, not kill. Shirou didn't directly kill any innocent humans in HF. Hmm, about 2 weeks ago, in a Sakura war thread, you still said: "HF Shirou is worst Shirou, he and Sakura must pay for what they did". Now, you changed 180 degree. What happened, Mira? Sudden realization? |
chickenonthepan said: mira-lala said: I said risk, not kill. Shirou didn't directly kill any innocent humans in HF. Hmm, about 2 weeks ago, in a Sakura war thread, you still said: "HF Shirou is worst Shirou, he and Sakura must pay for what they did". Now, you changed 180 degree. What happened, Mira? Sudden realization? She abandoned her ideals. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
chickenonthepan said: mira-lala said: I said risk, not kill. Shirou didn't directly kill any innocent humans in HF. Hmm, about 2 weeks ago, in a Sakura war thread, you still said: "HF Shirou is worst Shirou, he and Sakura must pay for what they did". Now, you changed 180 degree. What happened, Mira? Sudden realization? I said I re-watched HF, didn't I? I still think he needs to pay, but I understand his character more =3 -kV- said: mira-lala said: Actually, no. Yes, he is realistic, but so it HF Shirou. Any mother will be willing to risk everyone else's life for their child's. So they are unrealistic and delusional, now? What? I didn't say HF Shirou was unrealistic and delusional? I was talking about UBW Shirou specifically. In HF, he doesn't live only for Sakura. He lives for those he loves. He faces the cold hard reality of loss and suffering throughout HF. He kills Saber, and he loses Illya. That is some fucking loss. Yeah, it was destructive and he made sacrifices, but he arrives at the end of it only living for close loved ones. At the end of the day, he's still only living for them, and letting the greater world to its own whims (unless it happens to immediately threaten his loved ones). There's nothing wrong that, considering millions upon millions of people live that type of life. But's that's why I admire UBW Shirou. I don't....You know what? I....don't give a damn~ |
The sun is a deadly laser |
chickenonthepan said: MercifulPriest said: Both you and Fai seem to be mistaken about one critical thing of mine, and just so we're clear, it's that - just because I don't agree with something, doesn't mean it's bad or wrong. Well, I just simply disagree with you and argue with you. When you voice an opinion, you should prepare to be put into a debate... Hm, maybe I misunderstood the intent from you a little. Debating is itself fine, but you made a few assumptions about what I said that I just had to clear. You assumed something along the lines of 'since I don't agree with people sacrificing their own lives for the sake of others, they're all bad people, and the good people are the ones who stay at home peacefully!'. On the other hand, I have no problem with people like that. Really, hearing about stuff like that makes me happier since there are actually people like that in the world. Hell, I may end up doing it myself at some distant point in the future, but that's only if I have little else to lose. It's simply that, when it comes to discussing about a character, in this instance Shirou Emiya, I'd prioritize his safety, happiness, and fulfilment over that of random strangers. The answer that's best for him is the HF one - in my opinion - since it's not self-destructive, but that's not to say the UBW answer is bad. Being a hero and saving countless lives is pretty sweet, but in practice, not something I'd approve of much as a character resolution. Does that make any sense? Well, really, both wanting to save strangers and wanting to be with your family can't possibly be wrong. Being selfless and being selfish are human concepts. |
CarenPriestessJan 24, 2015 9:19 AM
|
June93 said: Mickdrew said: See? HF is the most relevant to our everyday lives.She abandoned her ideals. heh I guess so. It really is the most human Shirou. mira-lala said: I said I re-watched HF, didn't I? I still think he needs to pay, but I understand his character more =3 Does this mean you also hate Sakura less? |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
June93 said: Mickdrew said: See? HF is the most relevant to our everyday lives.She abandoned her ideals. Uhm, I really don't see the situation when people have 2 clear extreme choices like that. Mickdrew said: June93 said: See? HF is the most relevant to our everyday lives. heh I guess so. It really is the most human Shirou. Oh please, don't use the world "human" here... =.= As I said, the Ebola volunteers are not human? |
chickenonthepan said: June93 said: See? HF is the most relevant to our everyday lives. Uhm, I really don't see the situation when people have 2 clear extreme choices like that. You don't only change your priorities in the most extreme situations. The only reason that was the case for Shirou was because that's how attached he was to his ideals. chickenonthepan said: Oh please, don't use the world "human" here... =.= As I said, the Ebola volunteers are not human? I think most would agree those volunteers are able to rise above our natural instincts. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
chickenonthepan said: June93 said: See? HF is the most relevant to our everyday lives. Uhm, I really don't see the situation when people have 2 clear extreme choices like that. Mickdrew said: heh I guess so. It really is the most human Shirou. Oh please, don't use the world "human" here... =.= As I said, the Ebola volunteers are not human? You can't compare the volunteers to Shirou. Pls. Mickdrew said: June93 said: See? HF is the most relevant to our everyday lives. heh I guess so. It really is the most human Shirou. mira-lala said: I said I re-watched HF, didn't I? I still think he needs to pay, but I understand his character more =3 Does this mean you also hate Sakura less? I already said that tho. ~.~ |
The sun is a deadly laser |
mira-lala said: I already said that tho. ~.~ Was it during one of the text walls? Cause my brain has a knack of switching off when I see those... |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
Mickdrew said: June93 said: See? HF is the most relevant to our everyday lives. heh I guess so. It really is the most human Shirou. Oh please, don't use the world "human" here... =.= As I said, the Ebola volunteers are not human? [/quote] I see using the term human like that bothers you. Well then, rather than human, think of it this way. They threw away their desire for self-preservation to save others. There's nothing for them to gain from saving other lives except the satisfaction of letting other people live and fulfil their own dreams. These volunteers overcame their human natural fears and thoughts in order to do what they believed was right. Think of it that way. |
|
MercifulPriest said: It's simply that, when it comes to discussing about a character, in this instance Shirou Emiya, I'd prioritize his safety, happiness, and fulfilment over that of random strangers. The answer that's best for him is the HF one - in my opinion - since it's not self-destructive, but that's not to say the UBW answer is bad. Being a hero and saving countless lives is pretty sweet, but in practice, not something I'd approve of much as a character resolution. Ok, I will pick something objective here. Not really. If anything happens to Sakura, he will be willing to throw his life away again, like he does in HF. He is most self-destructive in HF. |
-kV- said: How can one not admire what Emiya Shirou decides upon in UBW, even after facing Archer? He's inspirational, but also realistic. Better than in HF where he decides to only live for Sakura, and not bothering with the "cold, hard reality of loss and suffering." While I admire him as a character in UBW a lot, it's much easier for Shirou to become a superhero and fight against the odds like he did in that situation. However, facing all the tragedy that surrounds him in HF and not being able to save everybody - which is basically his obsession - is one hell of a burden. Up until HF, he was able to fight for his ideal and save the ones he loved. It's not like he turns into a different person in HF - he simply cannot live on true to his ideal and remain sane. The thing is he's still saving someone in HF. Someone who in fact went through hell as well since childhood. It's like a fight for survival where he chooses something that won't make his life a nightmare. Having to kill someone you love yourself - not to mention she's your friend's sister - would be too much of a burden for anyone. When you think about it, there are other scenes where he puts his life on the line to save someone important to him, like when he tells Caster she can cut his hand off. That's like him saying the pain of losing Taiga would have been even greater. I'd say it's not much different from how he feels in HF - the pain of killing Sakura would have been greater than anything else basically. |
chickenonthepan said: MercifulPriest said: It's simply that, when it comes to discussing about a character, in this instance Shirou Emiya, I'd prioritize his safety, happiness, and fulfilment over that of random strangers. The answer that's best for him is the HF one - in my opinion - since it's not self-destructive, but that's not to say the UBW answer is bad. Being a hero and saving countless lives is pretty sweet, but in practice, not something I'd approve of much as a character resolution. Ok, I will pick something objective here. Not really. If anything happens to Sakura, he will be willing to throw his life away again, like he does in HF. He is most self-destructive in HF. The point of FSN in general is to not throw yourself away for others. Tho...I mean, look at the examples, and how badly their lives ended.... |
The sun is a deadly laser |
| What Merciful seems to miss is that UBW Shirou KNOWS his limits and is OKAY with them. He is not trying to go past his own capabilities. He might try to improve his capabilities, but he would never go as suicidal as to try to go overboard(like in fate). UBW Shirou is someone who starts as a "child"(tramatized sociopath of a child but still) with an impossible ideal. As he faces the challenges through the route he slowly stops just following the ideal and is forced to look at the ideal itself - not as something his father left him, not as something that is a way for him to become happy(by replicating what Kiritsugu does and wishing to smile like Kiritsugu), but ideal itself. The Answer is the moment where he form his own actual way, instead of following it as a method to get happy. He looks at his own ideal, he looks at all of his failures before and he decides that the failures are only natural as everyone has limits and can't save everyone everywhere(trying that is fate route shirou's way). Shirou looks at the ideal and understands that the ideal itself is beautiful and worth following irregardless. You might never achieve it and you can't go over your own limits in following it, but following something you like in life can give you happiness, as long as you do not use it as a MEANS to get happiness. I guess you could say it is Rin rubbing off on him - Rin afterall likes to say that she does not want to do anything "impossible", but if she wants to do something "possible" she will put it to the utmost perfection. So that's UBW Shirou's way too. He is not trying to go over his limits to ATTAIN the ideal. He is trying to do the best with what he has, no more no less. And as long as he can put all he has to the limit he can come out of situations happy even if he did not succeed at something. Losing is okay as long as you tried your best, because that just means you were not meant to succeed at that in the first place. Shirou's high jumps are relevvant in that regard - Shirou tried the jumps till he succeeded - if the height was getting raised again and again after each success: - Fate Shirou would keep trying even when it is no longer physically possible. - UBW Shirou would make sure to succeed till the point it is no longer possible and then be content that he did all that he can. - HF Shirou would judge that the height would eventually be impossible and stop trying. That's why UBW Shirou is the healthy middle, because by striving towards his ideal he won't forget his limits, and Rin will be there to remind him of that, and he will always do his best with what he has in situations he is put into. Because he KNOWS his limits. In a way, UBW Shirou has the sense of HF Shirou that there are points when the ideal is impossible, but unlike HF Shirou, UBW Shirou has Fate Shirou's determination to succeed. Yet unlike Fate Shirou he has knowledge of when it is no longer possible. That's why people call UBW Shirou a "healthy middle" . The realization itself though starts as early as the first few days after Berserker fight - Shirou states to Saber that simply chooses to rust in those he is allied with now, making the most out of situation he is in. Then we have the whole "I don't know what to do or how to approach" once Rin leaves. So what does Shirou decide to do? What he can(in that case it was to train magic). That right there is the start and when I think about it EVERYTHING in UBW follows that logic. Kuizuki fight has you either help Rin or Saber - one is within Shirou's limits, the other is way beyond, one leads to death, the other leads to life. And then in taiganapping you have a forced leveraging of Saber and Taiga to Shirou and he, consciously or subconsciously realizes that he IS capable of saving Taiga(by giving up command spells) and then acts on his capability to save Taiga by stopping Saber's attack so Taiga survives. All of that right there is Shirou honing his ability to do the best with what he has got. The ability that eventually comes to Answer UBW Shirou just like all versions starts with a childish ideal and then,when met with reality, does not give up on it, but accepts the reality's limits. If a situation came where he WOULD have to save everyone: - Fate Shirou would die trying to save EVERYONE. - Kerry would make acceptable sacrifices to save majority, judging the worth of those he saves. - HF Shirou would save those closest to him. - UBW Shirou would do what he can and not do what he can't. He would accept the failure unable to do what he can't but he would be content that he did all it could, because that is what matters. Via his admiration of Rin balancing two separate worlds inside her and via the choices he is forced to make, UBW Shirou comes to RESPECT and ADMIRE his own ideal instead of living to achieve it, he starts to live BY it, finding happiness from that fact instead of a promise of happiness that would come. It is no longer "I will gain happiness if I help people" it is "I will be happy because I helped people". No longer giving something away and more like an exchange. Does it mean that UBW Shirou would live out his life till getting old? No one knows(then again no one knows that about even normal people), but he is sure as hell living longer than the other two That's why I love to call UBW Shirou a realist - he knows his limits, he knows what he wants and he is not ready to abandon what he wants simply because he won't achieve it to the fullest. He is truly following what HE wants from his life and he knows the limits to it and expects a lot of failures along the way because that is only human. UBW shirou, together with Rin, has a limitless world of possibilities at his disposal. And a good sense of judgement on which ones of them are actual possibilities. |
AhenshihaelJan 24, 2015 9:38 AM
|
MercifulPriest said: They threw away their desire for self-preservation to save others. There's nothing for them to gain from saving other lives except the satisfaction of letting other people live and fulfil their own dreams. These volunteers overcame their human natural fears and thoughts in order to do what they believed was right. Think of it that way. They gain happiness from helping other people. :) And they are living the lives that they can be proud of. What they will gain back, even if they don't want? Love from the people they saved. Respect from people that don't have the courage like them. |
chickenonthepan said: #MercifulPriest said: They threw away their desire for self-preservation to save others. There's nothing for them to gain from saving other lives except the satisfaction of letting other people live and fulfil their own dreams. These volunteers overcame their human natural fears and thoughts in order to do what they believed was right. Think of it that way. They gain happiness from helping other people. :) And they are living the lives that they can be proud of. What they will gain back, even if they don't want? Love from the people they saved. Respect from people that don't have the courage like them. *Points at Archer and Saber* Love, you say? |
The sun is a deadly laser |
chickenonthepan said: MercifulPriest said: It's simply that, when it comes to discussing about a character, in this instance Shirou Emiya, I'd prioritize his safety, happiness, and fulfilment over that of random strangers. The answer that's best for him is the HF one - in my opinion - since it's not self-destructive, but that's not to say the UBW answer is bad. Being a hero and saving countless lives is pretty sweet, but in practice, not something I'd approve of much as a character resolution. Ok, I will pick something objective here. Not really. If anything happens to Sakura, he will be willing to throw his life away again, like he does in HF. He is most self-destructive in HF. It could happen. After all, while the HF end may be the most peaceful for me, there's certainly no guarantee that things will stay that way forever. But logically, statistically at least, wouldn't it be the least self-destructive? At least he's not throwing his life away for tons and tons of unknown strangers, over and over, like in Fate, or getting close to it in UBW. But of course, Sakura is his emotional crutch, while he is hers. It's already been shown in one of the Bad Ends that if he loses her after having already thrown away his ideals, he'll have nothing left to live for. Relationships like that are pretty bad too. Strictly relationship-speaking, Fai has a point in that Rin has the healthiest relationship with Shirou, while Sakura is obsessive and Saber is...well, uh, gone to Avalon. So in other words, it's perhaps the most natural ending of the three, but still a horrible and bittersweet ending. |
|
June93 said: hrowing yourself for one person is less self-destructive and more healthy than throwing yourself for the whole of the human race IMO. It heavily depends on you know your limit or not. :3 |
| I not believe this. There was a whole war and I WAS SLEEPING. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THAT. And between priests, fans and one Counter Guardian. I REALLY DO NOT BELIEVE IN THAT. |
I am Hatedmainofanime. More no one. |
hatedmainofanime said: I not believe this. There was a whole war and I WAS SLEEPING. I DO NOT BELIEVE IN THAT. No worries mate, there's still plenty of bitching left to go around. |
| Signature removed. Please follow the signature rules, as defined in the Site & Forum Guidelines. |
MercifulPriest said: I'd prioritize his safety, happiness, and fulfilment over that of random strangers. The answer that's best for him is the HF one - in my opinion - since it's not self-destructive. No, it's only conscience destroying. Because Shirou wanted to protect her and live for her, he lets Sakura butcher thousands of innocent lives, and Saber and Ilya and nearly Rin all die in the process. That's hardly healthy, and if a future disaster would occur, well.. |
chickenonthepan said: June93 said: hrowing yourself for one person is less self-destructive and more healthy than throwing yourself for the whole of the human race IMO. It heavily depends on you know your limit or not. :3 ^This. Not doing the best with what you got is "safe" but still degrading for your identity. Throwing yourself for one person is okay if you KNOW that is your limit in that specific situation. ALWAYS defaulting to that is way past the healthy limit. That's essentially Nietzschean nihilism(I already described that concept few months back won't write an essay on that shit again) Why? Because it throws away what YOU want - nietzschean nihilism is defined by lack of meaning in your own beliefs. By going down this path HF Shirou is helping Sakura but destroying himself, because HE IS his beliefs. It is not different from cutting off your arm to feed the hungry. The consequences of his actions are destroying his own self. That's why I will never agree with HF being healthy. |
|
More topics from this board
Poll: » Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 3 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Oct 25, 2014 |
1042 |
by Alice_Huxley
»»
Feb 13, 4:23 PM |
|
Poll: » Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 2 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Oct 18, 2014 |
856 |
by Alice_Huxley
»»
Feb 13, 3:14 PM |
|
Poll: » Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 12 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Dec 27, 2014 |
2751 |
by keynutil
»»
Jan 29, 9:06 AM |
|
Poll: » Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 11 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Dec 20, 2014 |
903 |
by keynutil
»»
Jan 29, 5:00 AM |
|
Poll: » Fate/stay night: Unlimited Blade Works (TV) Episode 10 Discussion ( 1 2 3 4 5 ... Last Page )Stark700 - Dec 13, 2014 |
1630 |
by SanessyAdversary
»»
Jan 19, 12:54 PM |