If Fate/Hollow Ataraxia didn't exist, would you still like the F/SN servants better than the F/Z ones?(spoilers)
CookingPriest said: Bassically repeat of first half of Gil vs Saber but His in UBW pretty much says it all. It doesn't. It liteally means that 1) every except for Seiba will die. 2) He'a bluffing. He can only trace a fragment of it. chickenonthepan said: Saber vs. Archer. All out battle. Excalibur and UBW, use all those shit. Well, we have to use the proper circumstances. If they were both full power, they both had their proper weaponry, Seiba would definitely win.  Seiba with Shirou.....can still win.....but it's more likely for Archer to win in this case. I mean, you don't expect him to be able to make a proper Excalibur without having his circuits fried. |
The sun is a deadly laser |
| Saber at full power under Rin still can hardly beat Kojiro when he is almost depleted of mana. I don't expect much from her. And HF Shirou can beat the shit out of Altar. There is no reason Archer can't. |
| To be fair HF Shirou does a lot of things Archer doesn't, simply because of a severe case of fuck depletion. I don't think Archer can replicate Excalibur or.. the other one.. without serious self damage. Unless inside UBW I guess. |
WrongPriestJan 28, 2015 12:10 AM
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WrongPriest said: To be fair HF Shirou does a lot of things Archer doesn't, simply because of a severe case of fuck depletion. I don't think Archer can replicate Excalibur or.. the other one.. without serious self damage. Unless inside UBW I guess. the only problem with archer doing replica excalibur is MANA. in this exact situation he had plenty for it. He can make a knockoff without damaging himself. ARcher could do a lot of shit in UBW route but does not because too busy trolling. |
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chickenonthepan said: Saber at full power under Rin still can hardly beat Kojiro when he is almost depleted of mana. On the contrary, since Kojiro had nothing left to lose, no longer having to simply defend the gate, as well as already being familiar with Saber's fighting style, this allowed him to fight at his very strongest. Do not underestimate the strength of a random nobody farmer samurai! ... Well, I believe that Archer could beat Saber Alter from what we've seen of HF Shirou, but he'd have a harder time beating normal Saber, especially when she's being backed up by Rin. Sure, Saber Alter may have unlimited mana, but that means squat if she's fighting recklessly against a dude whose style is fixated on the unorthodox, hence why her Instinct couldn't have kicked in counter Crane Wing. On the other hand, normal Saber's Instinct is fully functional and she's way more clearheaded. But still, even normal Saber would probably lose to Archer in a one-on-one fight, though it'd take longer than Sparks High Liner and be way more epic. |
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MercifulPriest said: chickenonthepan said: Saber at full power under Rin still can hardly beat Kojiro when he is almost depleted of mana. On the contrary, since Kojiro had nothing left to lose, no longer having to simply defend the gate, as well as already being familiar with Saber's fighting style, this allowed him to fight at his very strongest. Do not underestimate the strength of a random nobody farmer samurai! ... Well, I believe that Archer could beat Saber Alter from what we've seen of HF Shirou, but he'd have a harder time beating normal Saber, especially when she's being backed up by Rin. Sure, Saber Alter may have unlimited mana, but that means squat if she's fighting recklessly against a dude whose style is fixated on the unorthodox, hence why her Instinct couldn't have kicked in counter Crane Wing. On the other hand, normal Saber's Instinct is fully functional and she's way more clearheaded. But still, even normal Saber would probably lose to Archer in a one-on-one fight, though it'd take longer than Sparks High Liner and be way more epic. Except it did not. Kojiro LET Saber win because he wanted a fair death in battle instead of wavering out of existence over days. Let me recap. For Saber to beat Kojiro she required: - Him to be out of mana almost completely - His sword to be damaged - Him letting her win. Yeah.... HF Shirou is way below Archer, Alter is way below Saber. A lot of shit HF SHirou can't do, Archer can. Archer barely if ever got serious in UBW, because he was too busy doing a long con on Shirou. |
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| Didn't he just want a fair fight in general, one where he could go all-out? That was, after all, the promise he made with Saber. ... Oh, come to think of it, I don't remember any sign of Kojiro's blade being bent during their battle in the UBW anime battle. Was it bent during a later battle (like, say, Berserker), or are they just going to fit it into their final clash? Admittedly, I don't fully recall that particular battle very much at all. |
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MercifulPriest said: Didn't he just want a fair fight in general, one where he could go all-out? That was, after all, the promise he made with Saber. ... Oh, come to think of it, I don't remember any sign of Kojiro's blade being bent during their battle in the UBW anime battle. Was it bent during a later battle (like, say, Berserker), or are they just going to fit it into their final clash? Admittedly, I don't fully recall that particular battle very much at all. I've mentioned this before, DEENBW final Saber vs Ko was just "my big attack > your big attack" no explanation at all, no signs of shit. Although idk how Ufo gonna do that scene, it's tricky. |
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| Saber going all out can beat Sasaki, though. MercifulPriest said: Oh, come to think of it, I don't remember any sign of Kojiro's blade being bent during their battle in the UBW anime battle. Was it bent during a later battle (like, say, Berserker), or are they just going to fit it into their final clash? It was bent during the final clash, wasn't it? |
Insertanamehere said: Saber going all out can beat Sasaki, though. Not in a close combat. That all out is shooting laser beamus from afar. The moment she engages fully rested with ful mana Sasaki in fair combat, she loses. |
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| Saber keeps wailing on his clothesline until it gets bent in their final fight, the strength of her blows was highlighted. |
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CookingPriest said: Insertanamehere said: Saber going all out can beat Sasaki, though. Not in a close combat. That all out is shooting laser beamus from afar. The moment she engages fully rested with ful mana Sasaki in fair combat, she loses. That's what I meant. Can't she prana burst in close range, though? |
CookingPriest said: Insertanamehere said: Saber going all out can beat Sasaki, though. Not in a close combat. That all out is shooting laser beamus from afar. The moment she engages fully rested with ful mana Sasaki in fair combat, she loses. It doesn't matter if he's 100x better at swordfighting, this kind of stuff happens all the time in Fate. Due to it being their second encounter, She saw an exploitable weakness and she exploited it, giving her a win. What's so hard to understand? Knowing a servants noble phantasm gives you a chance to exploit it, that's why moves like this have to 1-hit the first time around. This is like the first thing you learn about them. |
WrongPriestJan 28, 2015 3:32 AM
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WrongPriest said: CookingPriest said: Not in a close combat. That all out is shooting laser beamus from afar. The moment she engages fully rested with ful mana Sasaki in fair combat, she loses. It doesn't matter if he's 100x better at swordfighting, this kind of stuff happens all the time in Fate. Due to it being their second encounter, She saw an exploitable weakness and she exploited it, giving her a win. What's so hard to understand? Knowing a servants noble phantasm gives you the chance to exploit it, that's why moves like this have to 1-hit the first time around. This is like the first thing you learn about them. Weakness that Sasaki ALLOWED. it is very clear he could have done her in but chose to allow her ot win. Let's not forget that that weakness would not matter if Sasaki was at full power then. IF he was she would suffer similar most likely worse fate as Shirou-Saber did in their first encounter. Insertanamehere said: Can't she prana burst in close range, though? Oh look an oversized swallow. |
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| How would Tsubame Gaeshi cut apart a burst of magical energy?? |
| Yeah yeah, quote me some LP Archives and I'll give you that one. Tell me more about what's clearly shown or not cause I can't remember |
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Insertanamehere said: How would Tsubame Gaeshi cut apart a burst of magical energy?? I think he means the move speed boost not the ranged attack. |
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| Oh I didn't mean to launch at him like she does against Derpmud, I meant prana burst, like vs berserker in the anime original scene. |
Insertanamehere said: Oh I didn't mean to launch at him like she does against Derpmud, I meant prana burst, like vs berserker in the anime original scene. You mean strike air. WE already saw that play out in fate route in vn. Did not end well. |
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CookingPriest said: Insertanamehere said: Oh I didn't mean to launch at him like she does against Derpmud, I meant prana burst, like vs berserker in the anime original scene. You mean strike air. WE already saw that play out in fate route in vn. Did not end well. Not Strike Air. At least I don't think it was strike air. The thing she did to Berserker in episode 3 |
Insertanamehere said: CookingPriest said: You mean strike air. WE already saw that play out in fate route in vn. Did not end well. Not Strike Air. At least I don't think it was strike air. The thing she did to Berserker in episode 3 Uhhh.. I don't think we really know what that was. Should we name it? |
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WrongPriest said: Insertanamehere said: Not Strike Air. At least I don't think it was strike air. The thing she did to Berserker in episode 3 Uhhh.. I don't think we really know what that was. Should we name it? I call it a prana burst. Though that's actually something else in Saber's case. Mini-Excaliblast? |
Insertanamehere said: CookingPriest said: You mean strike air. WE already saw that play out in fate route in vn. Did not end well. Not Strike Air. At least I don't think it was strike air. The thing she did to Berserker in episode 3 Yeah, that was Strike Air. Perhaps one boosted by a Prana Burst, but Strike Air nonetheless. I rewatched the scene - and yeah, it's clearly shown that all the wind is released and funnelled through Berserker. If it was anything else, the wind would've dispersed instead. What did you think it was? Excalibur? If it was that, then I highly doubt that she would've been any condition to fight against Assassin and Kuzuki later~ ... As for attempting the Prana Burst ability that she does have, well, while it's good and all against the ridiculously strong Berserker, it's only a liability against Assassin's ridiculous speed and deathly blows. |
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MercifulPriest said: Insertanamehere said: Not Strike Air. At least I don't think it was strike air. The thing she did to Berserker in episode 3 Yeah, that was Strike Air. What did you think it was? Excalibur? If it was that, then I highly doubt that she would've been any condition to fight against Assassin and Kuzuki later~ Oh, after checking it out a couple of times I guess it is. What's with the golden effects, though, I always imagined it as being plain....windy stuff. Just a random burst of prana. |
| That's kinda meh if it was strike air, it looked way cooler in fate/zero. That one was like a streak of gold inside a hurricane. Maybe this one was more concentrated on one point, instead of wide area saturation like the one against the tentaclies. |
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Insertanamehere said: Oh, after checking it out a couple of times I guess it is. What's with the golden effects, though, I always imagined it as being plain....windy stuff. Just a random burst of prana. Golden effects comes from the glow of Excalibur. Excalibur is always glowing - just look at the second battle between Saber and F/Z Lancer. And this is wind capable of refracting light so as to make the blade invisible we're talking about here, so. Also, if it was a random burst of prana, a random A-RANK burst of mana capable of penetrating through Berserker, then that much should have had a visible effect on her, affecting her in some way. But nope, she performed as she normally did during the UBW route. If she had such a convenient ability, she could've been able to use it to counter True Assassin. |
CarenPriestessJan 28, 2015 4:17 AM
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| I thought people would learn to recognize basic stuff like strike air i mean the wind and all. Not to mention that this is not DBZ so Seiba won't start busting out ki blasts out of nowhere. WrongPriest said: That's kinda meh if it was strike air, it looked way cooler in fate/zero. That one was like a streak of gold inside a hurricane. Maybe this one was more concentrated on one point, instead of wide area saturation like the one against the tentaclies. Different usage. Zero one was used to boost her speed. The hurrican was for prana burst - basically she comboed both to move faster. This one as was the one in fate route against Fassassin is used offensively. |
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| kkk I didn't think about it soz~ |
| Saber Alter isnt WAY below Saber.She only lacks in Agility and Instinct(LUCk doesnt count in anything). |
Insertanamehere said: kkk I didn't think about it soz~ Nah, me and you gotta add dunce hats to our avatars and go sit in the secondary corner. |
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HentaiPriest said: Saber Alter isnt WAY below Saber.She only lacks in Agility and Instinct(LUCk doesnt count in anything). She also can't prana burst because it works as a shield for her. |
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WrongPriest said: Insertanamehere said: kkk I didn't think about it soz~ Nah, me and you gotta add dunce hats to our avatars and go sit in the secondary corner. ;; No point in adding the hats, it'll take a week or so to change. |
CookingPriest said: Citation needed.HentaiPriest said: Saber Alter isnt WAY below Saber.She only lacks in Agility and Instinct(LUCk doesnt count in anything). She also can't prana burst because it works as a shield for her. The VN says that the magical energy always covers her body/armor NOT that she cant used it for anything else. |
HentaiPriest said: Saber Alter isnt WAY below Saber.She only lacks in Agility and Instinct(LUCk doesnt count in anything). ...'only'? Agility and Instinct are amongst her highest points, the latter especially. Even if she has an unlimited mana source and even if she has massive power outputs, she's like a runaway train that can't control its own course and thus be taken advantage of by a sufficiently intelligent Servant or a dude with an intelligent Servant's arm transplanted onto him. |
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HentaiPriest said: CookingPriest said: Citation needed.She also can't prana burst because it works as a shield for her. The VN says that the magical energy always covers her body/armor NOT that she cant used it for anything else. Alter's prana burst functions as PERMANENT shield. Saber proper can activate it basically as a rocket booster. Since Alter's is always on it can't be used that way. Hence why Alter never ever used it that way as proper does. MercifulPriest said: HentaiPriest said: Saber Alter isnt WAY below Saber.She only lacks in Agility and Instinct(LUCk doesnt count in anything). ...'only'? Agility and Instinct are amongst her highest points, the latter especially. Even if she has an unlimited mana source and even if she has massive power outputs, she's like a runaway train that can't control its own course and thus be taken advantage of by a sufficiently intelligent Servant or a dude with an intelligent Servant's arm transplanted onto him. ^This. Without instinct saber proper would already be died in ONE hit from Sasaki. |
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| It's NEVER stated that she cant use Prana Burst in any other way.Oh and since it is always on it makes things better not worse for her. Instinct was what made Caster win in Fate route bad end, and it was that same Instinct that made Kuzuki beat the crap out of her. Both either cant fight at all or are unorthodox in their fighting style.In what category does Archer/Shirou fall? And it is only one Rank. Agility yes there is a problem with that IF we ignore that she had no problems with Rider whatsoever,so something must be making up for that.Like constant magical burst speed power up? |
| Saber Alter has heaps of Prana burst looking moves in Fate Unlim codes, It loks like she can use the dark tendrils and do heaps of cool stuff. Not that Fate Unlim means anything lol, Who knows HF will probably have her pull off some flashy stuff. |
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WrongPriest said: Saber Alter has heaps of Prana burst looking moves in Fate Unlim codes, It loks like she can use the dark tendrils and do heaps of cool stuff. Not that Fate Unlim means anything lol, Who knows HF will probably have her pull off some flashy stuff. If we are going to use FUC feats then we have to use Carnival Phantasm too. Both as credible. |
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HentaiPriest said: and it was that same Instinct that made Kuzuki beat the crap out of her. If it wasn't for Instinct, she would've died in the very first freaking blow (or two), sharing Rider's fate of being taken by surprise by a mere human after their first attack is countered. And against Caster, she actually ignored her Instinct in the face of an advantage...or at least, that's how I believe it went in the Fate route. |
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CookingPriest said: WrongPriest said: Saber Alter has heaps of Prana burst looking moves in Fate Unlim codes, It loks like she can use the dark tendrils and do heaps of cool stuff. Not that Fate Unlim means anything lol, Who knows HF will probably have her pull off some flashy stuff. If we are going to use FUC feats then we have to use Carnival Phantasm too. Both as credible. Are you trying to imply that Gil DOESN'T have a mallet NP?!? |
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Mickdrew said: CookingPriest said: If we are going to use FUC feats then we have to use Carnival Phantasm too. Both as credible. Are you trying to imply that Gil DOESN'T have a mallet NP?!? Rider is the Bear Grills of fate. "Shit's going down! Better stab my own neck!" |
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Mickdrew said: CookingPriest said: If we are going to use FUC feats then we have to use Carnival Phantasm too. Both as credible. Are you trying to imply that Gil DOESN'T have a mallet NP?!? Well, he definitely has a ton of small hammers in his GoB which could function as mallets. The problem is more to do with how they all look the same, unless there's a legend about a self-multiplication hammer or a team of identical hammer-wielders... //takeseverythingseriously |
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WrongPriest said: Rider is the Bear Grills of fate. "Shit's going down! Better stab my own neck!" I can't believe I didn't notice that XDD MercifulPriest said: Well, he definitely has a ton of small hammers in his GoB which could function as mallets. The problem is more to do with how they all look the same, unless there's a legend about a self-multiplication hammer or a team of identical hammer-wielders... //takeseverythingseriously So they're all copies, huh? hmmmmm maybe he's a hypocrite and started using Archer's technique.... |
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MercifulPriest said: HentaiPriest said: and it was that same Instinct that made Kuzuki beat the crap out of her. If it wasn't for Instinct, she would've died in the very first freaking blow (or two), sharing Rider's fate of being taken by surprise by a mere human after their first attack is countered. And against Caster, she actually ignored her Instinct in the face of an advantage...or at least, that's how I believe it went in the Fate route. Still a rank A Instinct should have told her ti back the fuck of.Or use something else. I saw her running at Caster and then stopping by "something".No golems around and even if there were they dont have the power to STOP an attacking Saber. |
HentaiPriest said: MercifulPriest said: If it wasn't for Instinct, she would've died in the very first freaking blow (or two), sharing Rider's fate of being taken by surprise by a mere human after their first attack is countered. And against Caster, she actually ignored her Instinct in the face of an advantage...or at least, that's how I believe it went in the Fate route. Still a rank A Instinct should have told her ti back the fuck of.Or use something else. I saw her running at Caster and then stopping by "something".No golems around and even if there were they dont have the power to STOP an attacking Saber. I'm not entirely sure what your point with Caster is supposed to be. Saber thought she had the advantage and that Caster had no way to stop her, so she charged in. Even if her Instinct was telling her something was a little wrong, that didn't stop her from deciding "hey, Caster can't harm me due to lolMagic Resistance and her golems are like paper, so I may as well finish her off" and going in for the kill. Really, the one betting is Caster herself, since there's a chance that she might not be able to hit Saber with her Rule Breaker in time before she's hit, or worse, outright killed. And as for the fight with Kuzuki, what else could she use? Or rather, think of it another way - was she even capable of retreating, or would the attempt to do so have given Kuzuki the opportunity to move in for the finishing blow? It seemed to me that Saber should've long died in that fight since she was facing a completely unknown enemy with high stats. Each of Kuzuki's attacks were assassination techniques meant to kill someone in a single blow, augmented by Caster's magic, yet she was able to survive various even without any information, relying only on that Instinct of hers. I highly doubt any of the other Servants except for Berserker and MAYBE Archer would've been capable of doing the same. ... Man, now that I think about it, Saber has a habit of surviving against impossible attacks/enemies and then live to see another day. |
CarenPriestessJan 28, 2015 6:20 AM
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| That's the only way you can showcase a 1 hit ability without killing off the main cast XD |
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WrongPriest said: That's the only way you can showcase a 1 hit ability without killing off the main cast XD Gae Bolg. Berserker in general. Tsubame Gaeshi. Kuzuki-fu. ...um, sorry, what was that again about Luck meaning nothing in a fight? |
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MercifulPriest said: What matters is that Saber STOPPED just before hitting Caster.Her own power made her make a very bad choice.HentaiPriest said: Still a rank A Instinct should have told her ti back the fuck of.Or use something else. I saw her running at Caster and then stopping by "something".No golems around and even if there were they dont have the power to STOP an attacking Saber. I'm not entirely sure what your point with Caster is supposed to be. Saber thought she had the advantage and that Caster had no way to stop her, so she charged in. Even if her Instinct was telling her something was a little wrong, that didn't stop her from deciding "hey, Caster can't harm me due to lolMagic Resistance and her golems are like paper, so I may as well finish her off" and going in for the kill. Really, the one betting is Caster herself, since there's a chance that she might not be able to hit Saber with her Rule Breaker in time before she's hit, or worse, outright killed. And as for the fight with Kuzuki, what else could she use? Or rather, think of it another way - was she even capable of retreating, or would the attempt to do so have given Kuzuki the opportunity to move in for the finishing blow? It seemed to me that Saber should've long died in that fight since she was facing a completely unknown enemy with high stats. Each of Kuzuki's attacks were assassination techniques meant to kill someone in a single blow, augmented by Caster's magic, yet she was able to survive various even without any information, relying only on that Instinct of hers. I highly doubt any of the other Servants except for Berserker and MAYBE Archer would've been capable of doing the same. ... Man, now that I think about it, Saber has a habit of surviving against impossible attacks/enemies and then live to see another day. Invisible Air,Prana Burst OR I dont know just do a lariat at him. Instinct is really a "random" power, with only Luck stat above it. It didnt do anything against Caladbolg, it warned her about Tsubame Gaeshi, nothing against Kuzuki till it was too late, was what caused her loss against Caster in Fate(In UBW as well but in fate route it is worse), didnt work against the Shadow during the fight with Assassin and failed to inform her about his Wind Protection before the Shadow's appearance. [Instinct (直感, Chokkan?) is the power to "feel" the most favorable developments for oneself during battle. A: Refined sixth sense is now close to true precognition. Bonus effect of reducing by half the penalties caused by obstructed vision and hearing] I skipped some events that it helped her but you get the idea.It's a freaking dice even with A rank. Yeah she does survive all right...usually, but that doesnt change that it isnt an absolute power. |
| About the Caster thing in Fate:the reason Saber stopped was because Caster had hidden a skeleton golem in the ground which grabbed Saber's legs.That's literally it.She didn't constrict her in any other way. It's a freaking dice even with A rank. Not at all,Nasu's just inconsistent with it. |
DamnThatsTheSpot said: About the Caster thing in Fate:the reason Saber stopped was because Caster had hidden a skeleton golem in the ground which grabbed Saber's legs.That's literally it.She didn't constrict her in any other way. It's a freaking dice even with A rank. Not at all,Nasu's just inconsistent with it. The golem's dont have enough power to STOP Saber when she is fighting.Or freaking Shirou. Also  But. "…!" Saber suddenly stops. Not because of Caster's counter-attack, but by her own choice. "You" Saber instantly tries to dodge. ------------------------- If she had kept going she would have killed Caster before Rule Breaker did anything. If Nasu ignores it then it means it isnt all that powerful. |
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