Aldnoah.Zero 2nd Season Episode 9 Discussion

swn32 said:
Thing is they got away with all their previous battle with that amount of thought. When Scandia discovered her weakness to smoke, she did take countermeasures. The only thing they couldn't counter was basically Inaho.

swn32 said:

It would hardly matter. Reflexes wouldn't help him defeat the kataphrakt. Intelligence will, and that's exactly what his eye gives him.

deadoptimist said:

In the last battle the electricity guy talks about him before dying. And they are controlled by Slaine, whose agenda against Inaho is the size of the moon. And Saazbaum was supposedly killed in battle with Inaho.

He is famous, he must be a priority.

Darklight0303 said:


That is a major assumption. Maybe they just managed to gather enough forces to throw at the main base. AFter all it seems the UFE love throwing numbers at their problems. They were talking about gathering their forces during the briefing before the three counts battle.

Viktor_Otaku said:


I believe that reflexes help save him once from being disintegrated by Saazbaum's barrier and another time by his rocket fists. But thats about it.

Viktor_Otaku said:


I believe that reflexes help save him once from being disintegrated by Saazbaum's barrier and another time by his rocket fists. But thats about it.

ANGRY2011 said:

After an enemy escapes an encounter in which they work together, they should expect the next time the enemy forces attack that they will put that knowledge to use. They attempted to solve this issue with their little team up, but that combination was actually incredibly lackluster. I can think of a much better counter off the top of my head.

ANGRY2011 said:


This is no more of an assumption than your assumption that the landing castles are all in places without resources or at the center of cities, because the few we've seen have been at cities.

All we've been shown is Inaho succeeding and no other force being able to. Therefore, the assumption is that Inaho is turning the tide of the war with his victories.

Viktor_Otaku said:


Inaho had been, according to his friends, running around the globe for close to a year now to combat the Martians. This proves that he plays a pivotal role in UFE's victory and unfortunately he is fast turning in to the pathetic "choosen one" stock character.

swn32 said:

But that's all it can do, save him from attacks, and that too not reliably. He wont be able to defeat the enemies that way. It is not something he can count on.


The enemy just ran away. They didn't pose any viable threat to them. So they were in the search and destroy mode. No in the sit back and defend mode.

swn32 said:
The enemy just ran away. They didn't pose any viable threat to them. So they were in the search and destroy mode. No in the sit back and defend mode.

Darklight0303 said:


Running around the globe? When did his friends say that?

swn32 said:

He didn't even know his name. Just referred to him as an orange kataphrakt. That's not being too famous. At any rate, Inaho entered the battle after checkmating the 2 martians, so it would hardly matter if he was a priority target or not.

Darklight0303 said:


His reflexes also allowed him to shoot down Slaine when he fired on him.

Viktor_Otaku said:

The common combat rule is that if the enemy retreats, they would most likely set up a counter attack immediately afterwards or an ambush.

ANGRY2011 said:

The enemy returned to the battlefield of their own will. This would suggest the enemy came prepared to fight the three of them, given their past encounter, unlike before, when the counts held the element of surprise. This is the most basic of deductions.

deadoptimist said:

It happened before too, so they know about the orange kat. And there's Slaine behind them. Slaine even noticed the prediction abilities.

His name is irrelevant, they know the unit, as would be the case with a tank in real life war. But that's enough, since he uses it here as well and it's unique. They also must know that he is in the main terrans' strike force.

swn32 said:
At any rate, Inaho entered the battle after checkmating the 2 martians, so it would hardly matter if he was a priority target or not.

swn32 said:
But they had not many options. Sitting back and defending forever isn't feasible. They have to expand. Also covering more ground without defeating your enemies is also difficult, because of limited manpower/resources.

They could maybe come up with an awesome plan to defeat Inaho, but first they have to first recognize a credible threat. They won't just go all defensive based on mere speculation. It is possible they just assumed that the terrans counter attacked with increased numbers. Increased numbers don't seem to trouble the knights in the slightest.

swn32 said:

ANGRY2011 said:

They don't have to sit back and defend forever. They should take defensive positions when actively attacked. There is a difference.

ANGRY2011 said:

As for your next point, when the enemy comes to attack you after learning your combat strength, they should come prepared with a plan. You will not know what that plan may be necessarily, and so your assumption should be nothing further than that the enemy has willingly engaged you - and therefore likely believes they have done something to give themselves an advantage.

These are basics. They are not followed. It is not justified.

deadoptimist said:

We moved from the point.

So if they know about the trump unit, why not prepare?

swn32 said:
The only defensive position they can take is sitting in range of the landing castle defenses. Which again leads to a stalemate. It would be more unrealistic if the martians actually settled for a stalemate.

swn32 said:
It wasn't the first time they had displayed their combat strength. I'm pretty sure, the enemy knowing their combat strength was of little concern to them.

swn32 said:
That's the thing, you can't really prepare much in these kinda situations because they had no idea what kinda of threat Inaho was. Inaho's main strength was intelligence and really no amount of preparation can trump that.

ANGRY2011 said:


Once again, why? Are you suggesting the Deucalion can outwait a landing castle, where the Vers survived in space for many years? The Terrans are on the attack, putting the Vers naturally on the defense. If they take up a defensive position, there are only three options: The Terrans attack, and the Vers have an advantage. The Terrans retreat, and the Vers do not have to worry about it. The Terrans wait, and the Vers can simply wait as well. I guarantee the Vers would win that waiting game. It is dangerous for the Terrans to be exposed, as well. The Vers still hold the advantage in space, and there are likely more forces which could come in from orbit, or God forbid they decide to go with the same tactic that the Deucalion went with against Maazurek, and utilize weaponry from space.

ANGRY2011 said:

It was the first time they showed their combined combat strength. Once again, if it was of little concern to them, they are ignoring the basics, and acting stupid and haughty beyond what is justified.

swn32 said:

That's the thing, you can't really prepare much in these kinda situations because they had no idea what kinda of threat Inaho was. Inaho's main strength was intelligence and really no amount of preparation can trump that.

ANGRY2011 said:
Here is a basic preparation which would apply. The enemy is attacking. Take a defensive position.

swn32 said:
Again that is under the assumption that they are invulnerable while waiting.

deadoptimist said:

Actually it's ridiculous that a little teamwork is supposed to be the only thing they can manage after two years of war, 20 years of planning and 30% losses. Even rats learn faster.

swn32 said:

You really expect people without any proper combat training, those who only rely on the OPness of their mechs to be able to have any decent team chemistry?

swn32 said:
Again that is under the assumption that they are invulnerable while waiting. That just isn't the case. We've seen landing castles being seiged before. Also the kataphrakts themselves have such insane defenses (going invisible, deflect bullets, create a new robot to replace a dead one), I doubt they would need to use standard defensive positions which normal soldiers are trained to use.

swn32 said:
If having the enemy know about their individual strength of is of little concern, having them know their combined strength should be of even less concern. They mopped the floor with the terrans using their combined strength.

deadoptimist said:


But they are hardly prepared at all. And they don't use their most powerful unit - the castle.

Pretty much what ANGRY said

Not waiting - engaging at an advantage of covering fire or constructed defenses.

swn32 said:
Again, the 3 counts gauged the enemy based on their experience. They really had no good intel on the enemy. To them it just appeared as a bunch of terran kataphrakts that they have been decimating all this while. They only thing they didn't know was Inaho was one of them.

Another thing is, the landing castles aren't impenetrable. So being too defensive would only accumulate damage. While playing an RTS game, do you just create a fortress and sit there? No, you create an army as well and attack.

casiopao said:


And yet in this show, the Vers never once had the mind or the writer had the idea to give the Count any kind of support army. Ground Army? Air Superiority? Tanks? Infantry? Nope just single mech to die and stop the Castle from doing things.

swn32 said:
Another thing is, the landing castles aren't impenetrable. So being too defensive would only accumulate damage. While playing an RTS game, do you just create a fortress and sit there? No, you create an army as well and attack.

deadoptimist said:

The part about only relying on the OPness equals to "being stupid", not to mention that they don't display decent knowledge of their kats' abilities.
But they do have combat training - they're military, they like dueling, they're descendants of the king's strike force. Also that's literally nothing to do on the orbiting castles but to prepare for war.

And Inaho and Co at the beginning are as unaccustomed to battles as them.

ANGRY2011 said:

They don't have to be invulnerable while waiting. There's no assumption of that here. The assumption is that the landing castle is a beneficial defensive tool, not that they are invulnerable. If a landing castle is seiged, that's already a better scenario for them than facing the same amount of forces without the landing castle. Refer to the three scenarios above again. There is no situation in which taking a defensive position with the castle is not helpful when the Terrans are on the offensive.

It is similar for having powers making it unnecessary for them to use defensive positions. Are you suggesting a defensive position would make them MORE vulnerable? If it will make them less vulnerable in any way, it is advantageous for them to take it. Not doing so is sheer stupidity, and unjustifiable.

It doesn't matter. They still showed it, and they should still know that the enemy will understand it. It is stupid and unjustifiable not to take precautions after showing your hand.

Your argument is basically if they were really stupid before, then they'll be stupid now. That's great and all, but the point I'm making is they shouldn't be so fucking stupid.

Darklight0303 said:


Not true. Sazbaum, the only one to take the conflict seriously, had backup. The battle in the final episode had full troop deployment

swn32 said:

Dueling is a lot different from actual combat training, which is heavily focussed on tactics and teamwork.


Taking a defensive position in the castle would just have Inaho change his plan. It would just play out differently and the martians would still die. Every situation has a counter. They can literally just shell the landing castles from a distance. And then it would just become a contest between firepower.


Don't always assume a defense is impenetrable. Haven't you heard the the rule - attack is the best defense. I get that you play RTS games in a different way, I guarentee you, you'll lose more often than win.


Again, the 2 robots linked up. That made them quite stronger. But you will downplay that precaution just to further you argument.

ANGRY2011 said:

To make it more correct, allow me to fix it: You have an HQ, which is also a structure with great range and incredible firepower. You also have one to three very powerful individual units. The enemy earlier engaged your units and escaped, but now knows what your units are. The enemy force comes back to attack your units. You decide that you'll just run all your units out of the defensive umbrella of your base, because sure, why not. You are an idiot.

The proper maneuver is to retreat within the range of your defensive structure, where you have an advantage.

Viktor_Otaku said:

The issue here is that there is not immediate backup plan if the first one falls through.

swn32 said:

And I just get the feeling that you don't really understand how strategies work. You can't sit in a place and defend for too long, regardless of how strong you think your HQ is. In fact, getting surrounded would put them in a far worse position.

swn32 said:
Taking a defensive position in the castle would just have Inaho change his plan. It would just play out differently and the martians would still die. Every situation has a counter. They can literally just shell the landing castles from a distance. And then it would just become a contest between firepower.

swn32 said:
Don't always assume a defense is impenetrable. Haven't you heard the the rule - attack is the best defense. I get that you play RTS games in a different way, I guarentee you, you'll lose more often than win.

swn32 said:
Again, the 2 robots linked up. That made them quite stronger. But you will downplay that precaution just to further you argument.

swn32 said:

They were decimated like within 30 seconds of having their plan fail. Real stop it with the lame nitpicking.

swn32 said:

And I just get the feeling that you don't really understand how strategies work. You can't sit in a place and defend for too long, regardless of how strong you think your HQ is. In fact, getting surrounded would put them in a far worse position.

Viktor_Otaku said:


They never really did have to play to the enemies tune, the only possible way for the terrans to actually attack a castle and win is by literally dropping a nuke on them. Try and get anywhere within a mile and you get vaporized immediately. Even surrounding it would not had work as they could just resupply via orbital drop.

The trick that Inaho use to attack Castle Saazbaum was very risky and not fool proof. Had the enemy realized it sooner they would had just blasted the deucalion outta the sky.

swn32 said:

There are other weapons like mortars which don't have a heat signature and would be really difficult for them to counter. You really need to stop making assumptions that martians can just hole up and defend against anything. And even if they do win, their landing castle still would've taken heavy damage. If Inaho wasn't present, attacking the terrains would clearly be the better idea no matter how much you want to nitpick.

ANGRY2011 said:
Further, don't make remarks on a skillset that you don't know if I have or not. I've so far shown a better understanding of tactics than you have.

Additionally, their linkup is a poor choice. The invisibility mech isn't all that useful for the mech that uses lightning because the lightning will give away the combined position during every attack, unless they are able to simultaneously wipe out all enemies, something they are not able to do.

Viktor_Otaku said:

And you expect the Terrans to find a mortar the size of a house to actually attack the castle without being discovered. Logic failure here. Even with their most advance artillery they could not hope but to nick it before it decided that it had enough of them and fire a cruise missle in their direction. Their sensors are accurate enough to actually conduct orbital bombardments and scan directly onto the earth's surface. What makes you think that they can't calculate the simple trajectory of the artillery fired. Solis managed to pint point deucalion from its cannon fire within the first salvo fired.

swn32 said:

No you haven't. You have literally relegated a strong attack to a weak defense. You are just under the assumption that your tactics would work out. I can tell you with certainity that it wont. Not when you are as predictable as sitting back and defending.

[quotw]
They linked up and left their defensive zone. Why don't they link up and stay in their defensive zone?

Additionally, their linkup is a poor choice. The invisibility mech isn't all that useful for the mech that uses lightning because the lightning will give away the combined position during every attack, unless they are able to simultaneously wipe out all enemies, something they are not able to do.

swn32 said:

The only logic fail is from your side. You don't need a mortar the size of a house. Did you watch the episode where they took out solis? And the main problem with defending against the mortars is detecting them. Now assume you a bunch of mortars from different directions coming towards you? It's not that easy.

Don't just assume that landing castle is super powerful. Really that isn't helping your case.

swn32 said:
No you haven't. You have literally relegated a strong attack to a weak defense. You are just under the assumption that your tactics would work out. I can tell you with certainity that it wont. Not when you are as predictable as sitting back and defending.

swn32 said:
Cause they wouldn't be effective when they are hiding in their defensive zone and getting mortared from a distance.

swn32 said:
How is it a poor choice, the linkup was better than the sum of it's parts. If scandia was potted, the rock solid defense from elektris would protect her. The electricity also helped clear out smoke. And when they are in stealth, they can position themselves and deliver a strong attack from anywhere they please and get back to stealth immediately. Using a lightning would give away their location, but not if used strategically.

Viktor_Otaku said:
Let me remind you here than their universe is parallel to ours in terms of development. That means the most heavy artillery they could had mustered is just a paltry 155mm howitzer. And artillery have less range than missiles so they had to get well within the castle's range.

Viktor_Otaku said:

My assumptions were affirmed when I saw the landing castle vomiting out nearly 50 missile simultaneously and knocking out squadrons of jet fighters. To actually dent the castle you need to a highly concentrated artillery barrage at the same time, firing one at a time would just alert the enemy to what you are planning and react towards it, but trying to mass a large group of howitzers within radius of the castle without getting scanned is BS at its finest.
Solis was just a mech, we are talking about a castle the size of a city here. Get the facts straight.