Kara no Kyoukai 5: Mujun Rasen Episode 1 Discussion

Code0018 said:
I'm gonna be real, i really like this series so far and i think the story, characters and atmosphere are absolutely amazing but man this chapter was just such a mind fuck. I think i only managed to understand like half of it if i'm serious, it felt like someone was throwing me through loops and completely made me question what i knew at every minute about the series.

First the pacing of the show with it's scene changes, transitions, repeating scenes, changes of perspective is on such a high level of its own its fucking amazing, it cemented that feeling of Deja vu or living in a repeating nightmare or just the psychological horror in general so god damn well. I think the closest thing that i can think off that matches such a unique way of scene swapping and story telling would be Monogatari.


The symbolism in this movie as well was really great. I probably didn't understand much of it as well, but things like the ending with Shiki and Tomoe mirroring each other's movements and looking back one last time before moving on felt impactful, Shiki name being related to the concept of Ying and Yang and the apartment having also that ying and yang felt important and again i feel like the scenes where we see through the first person perspective of Shiki has some meaning, but i can't figure out what.

Some of my questions i managed to find out by googling them, but i still have a few questions about what happens in this chapter:

• One thing i want to confirm on is just the timeline of fake Tomoe escaping and the real Tomoe dying. I understand the fake Tomoe's are created after the last one dies, but when exactly does the real Tomoe die? Another thing i'm confused on is fake Tomoe escaping the loop. Its my understanding that fake Tomoe was programmed by Araya to find Shiki and try to escape, but was him escaping planned or just part of Araya's plan? Also how does Shiki know it's been six months since the real Tomoe died?

• Also on the topic of the timeline, when does this month of Mikiya's absence take place? Is this explained in a different movie? I think Shiki takes Tomoe in between his absence time right? But how long does fake Tomoe actually stay at Shiki's place for? He says 8 days but all the time skips of him and shiki entering the apartment and all the ice cream pots make me believe it's way more then 8 days unless it's another red herring.

• What happens to all the fake people in the apartment after they die? Is there a system that automatically brings there body's somewhere and resets the environment? Do they get discarded or turn into those ghouls? Even so, we aren't given a fixed timeframe of how long Araya has been doing this experiment but from the sounds it's been happening for a while, so should there be a large amount of dead fake corpses? 

• Where exactly does Shiki get taken to? Was it just some pocket dimension? Why did Araya keep her in there for so long and not immediately try swapping their brains? 

• What was the dream Araya had after he killed Touko? I first thought it was him killing Touko but turns out that was real, so what exactly was the dream?

Admitably due to my lake of knowledge of the nasu verse, one issues i found with this chapter is not knowing a lot about the world. Some questions i still have about the word are:

• So Touko didn't die? It was a puppet? Ngl from how the movie showed it, it seemed like there were always 2 Touko's this entire time, or did she just power up that puppet for that specific occasion? How do her puppets even work? The Touko that did die, if that was a puppet, seemed to have everyone believe it was the real deal with how realistic it was but still turned out to be a fake. Was the second Touko the real one? Or another puppet and the real Touko never intend to go herself?


Finally the visuals for this show were top notch. Very well done, again the pacing of scenes and what not feels like an entire league of its own, but focusing solely on animation/design/art the movie was once again really well done and great. 
The ost this movie had as well was amazing, really added to scenes and the atmosphere of the movie. It was a really nice mix of techno action but spooky ambience.

Out of interest, is there any thread or video i can watch that can clearly explain the timeline of events in the movie or just explain the movie in general?

Code0018 said:
So Touko didn't die? It was a puppet?

Code0018 said:
Ngl from how the movie showed it, it seemed like there were always 2 Touko's this entire time, or did she just power up that puppet for that specific occasion? How do her puppets even work? The Touko that did die, if that was a puppet, seemed to have everyone believe it was the real deal with how realistic it was but still turned out to be a fake. Was the second Touko the real one? Or another puppet and the real Touko never intend to go herself?

This movie confuses the hell out of viewers but there is something so beautiful about this movie that even with all these questions, it still feels like a fulfilling watch.

I guess the best way would be to read the novels or maybe assume some things.

Pretty sure the real tomoe died half year ago on the day his family died. His mother did indeed kill him after killing his father then later taking her own life. For some reason it makes more sense that Araya had planned to let him escape and find Shiki. That was the only way to lure shiki to this place.

The pile of ice cream pots had me confused with the time he spent there as well but I think they didnt eat just one pot per day. He most probably ate like three to four pots (maybe even more) per day. Breakfast, lunch, dinner. We dont know what he was eating while he stayed there. Maybe he ate Hagen daza all day long. Who knows but that might be a possible answer for all the ice cream pots in just 8 days.

Yeah the fake people thing is what confuses me a bit too. Do they like just vanish or something? This experiment Araya has been conducting was around six months till Shiki reached there. I think what we see in the apartment are just 30 families that fell victim to this experiment.

Apparently the first death was the trigger for the new Tokoe appearing. Now who was the real Tokoe and does it even matter? I can think of so many possibilities but I dont think I will be satisfied with any one of them unless its 100% confirmed. I think its better to not think about it and just believe that the tokoe alive is the real tokoe with a powerful puppet.

Anyways I dont think this movie is meant to be understood with just one watch. Its one of the most confusing yet conclusive movie I have ever seen. I am just as confused as you are with all these question. My explanations might not be accurate at all I would like to be corrected by someone if I am wrong but I guess for now its best to rewatch the movies and read the novels to grasp whats going on in the timeline. The timeline in which it all occurs is the most confusing.

Alexioos95 said:

She did died , but we don't know if she was a puppet.
The second Touko we see is definitely one tho.

But Touko is different , she's capable of creating absolutely perfect puppets , literally replicas of a human body.
At this point , her "puppets" are not ones anymore.

We know from her very short explanations to Alba (in the Light Novels) that it's in relation to her soul.
Once she dies , her soul leaves her current body and go to one of her puppet , hidden somewhere , and activate its body.

Nasu said in an interview that Touko had hidden many of her "puppets" of herself a little bit everywhere around the world.
He also said that if the puppet she "reincarnate" into is too far from the location of her death , she loses some of her memory.
He also quickly explained the protocol that Touko follow once she "reincarnated" , so i believe he implies that she died multiple times now. (Or maybe i'm interpreting too much ?)

As for if she's still the same Touko or a replica , we are in the fog.
Alba react at all that by saying that she's absolutely crazy , and that it's a taboo for Magis to do that. (Some magis already experienced replicas of themselves , and all committed suicide due to the madness of their situations.)

When he was dying , he asked Touko which one was real again , and she basically answer back that she doesn't even know herself , and doesn't care anyway , as she's just "Aozaki Touko".

Code0018 said:
I could imagine the protocol being her just recalling her name, personal details, checking the body works and an overall wellness check-up because i'm sure dying and then awakening in a new but exact same body is gonna mess with you no matter how many times you do it.

Code0018 said:
I think my only question now is if between the process of her soul leaving the old body and entering the new one, does she get a choice whether or not she wants to enter the new body and continue living, or she has a choice to just pass on to the afterlife?

Code0018 said:
Damn this makes me more interested about Touko, we see her so much yet we know so little about her, we don't even know if we've seen the real one or ever will.

Alexioos95 said:
Nasu talked about how when a new Touko wake up , she has to directly create another puppet of herself.
I doubt she'll do a complete check-up tho , she seems 100% confident in her skills.

Alexioos95 said:
I don't think it got ever mentionned , but i doubt she can.
The process of switching bodies is said to be "extremely smooth" , and Nasu even says "too smooth". (Which is why she can lose some of her memory

Alexioos95 said:
She's originally a character from Mahoutsukai no Yoru , and its in it that we learn the more about her. (She's literally the antagonist...)
The protagonist of the story is her sister , Aoko , the teacher of Shiki from Tsukihime.

Alexioos95 said:
We don't know if she's the "real" one in it too tho.
Basically , she fled her home a few years before Mahoutsukai no Yoru , and there is high chances she became a puppet when she was far from home.
It's also possible she became a puppet after leaving the Clock Tower. (Or maybe she was not one until this Kara no Kyoukai Movie...)

One thing i want to confirm on is just the timeline of fake Tomoe escaping and the real Tomoe dying. I understand the fake Tomoe's are created after the last one dies, but when exactly does the real Tomoe die? Another thing i'm confused on is fake Tomoe escaping the loop. Its my understanding that fake Tomoe was programmed by Araya to find Shiki and try to escape, but was him escaping planned or just part of Araya's plan? Also how does Shiki know it's been six months since the real Tomoe died?

Also on the topic of the timeline, when does this month of Mikiya's absence take place? Is this explained in a different movie? I think Shiki takes Tomoe in between his absence time right? But how long does fake Tomoe actually stay at Shiki's place for? He says 8 days but all the time skips of him and shiki entering the apartment and all the ice cream pots make me believe it's way more then 8 days unless it's another red herring.

What happens to all the fake people in the apartment after they die? Is there a system that automatically brings there body's somewhere and resets the environment? Do they get discarded or turn into those ghouls? Even so, we aren't given a fixed timeframe of how long Araya has been doing this experiment but from the sounds it's been happening for a while, so should there be a large amount of dead fake corpses?

Where exactly does Shiki get taken to? Was it just some pocket dimension? Why did Araya keep her in there for so long and not immediately try swapping their brains?

What was the dream Araya had after he killed Touko? I first thought it was him killing Touko but turns out that was real, so what exactly was the dream?

So Touko didn't die? It was a puppet? Ngl from how the movie showed it, it seemed like there were always 2 Touko's this entire time, or did she just power up that puppet for that specific occasion? How do her puppets even work? The Touko that did die, if that was a puppet, seemed to have everyone believe it was the real deal with how realistic it was but still turned out to be a fake. Was the second Touko the real one? Or another puppet and the real Touko never intend to go herself?

Darkdaxter said:
Tomoe lived in the spiral apartment for a month. The apartments were built a year ago and took in residents a month ago. Wait no, actually the residents moved in earlier, and only the elevator was finished a month ago. But the elevator was finished right before the residents moved in. Puppet Tomoe has also lived in the spiral apartment for an obscenely long time because he felt that's all his life was.

Darkdaxter said:
Tomoe left his childhood home at 8 years old and moved into the spiral apartments. Well actually they apartment hopped for a while. Tomoe supported his family by paying for his schooling, dropping out of school, and working a part time job. Tomoe claims he didn't support his family. Tomoe hated his parents because they made his life a living hell, but they weren't so bad that they deserved to die. Tomoe has always hated his parents. Tomoe remembers loving his parents 8 years ago. Tomoe has been living with Shiki for 8 days, no a month, no actually 6 months.

Darkdaxter said:
Kokuto has gone somewhere far away (driving school) for a long time. She hasn't seen him. Kokuto came back a month later and talked to her repeatedly at HQ. Shiki can't cut Araya. Shiki can cut Araya but he heals himself. Araya can't heal himself. Araya is the building. Araya is just controlling the building. Toko is dead, but she's alive, but it's an obvious fake, but it's not a fake, but she's dead, but she's alive.

Darkdaxter said:
Tomoe allowed Shiki to defeat Araya. Tomoe saved Shiki. Shiki saved herself. Tomoe didn't do anything.

Darkdaxter said:
This movie is constantly contradicting itself, and you can't handwave it all away. It can't keep its own timeline straight whatsoever. It's consistently repeating dialogue over and over.

Darkdaxter said:
Plot contradictions aside, getting into the meat of the plot is no better. Alba is an absolutely worthless throwaway character. He starts out mysterious, threatening, and composed. Next time Toko meets him he's screaming his head off and terrified of her. Then he's referencing doing lewd things to her severed head, before crushing it, beating up Kokuto effortlessly, and refusing to do any magic in the movie whatsoever before being eaten by Toko's puppet. Just before that he was whining that his stab wound hurts so much he wants cry. How threatening. >_> What a waste of a character.

Darkdaxter said:
For some reason, Shiki didn't need to be saved. She saved herself. Great. That means everything all of the other ckatanakatana zero stakes regarding your character. Your past defeats and near defeats were because you arbitrarily held back. Wonderful.

Darkdaxter said:
Tomoe's character was interesting in concept. I've obviously seen many of his archetype. But this permutation was boring. In the end they're exploring the common philosophical dilemma regarding clones/fakes as if they spent the movie exploring it. In reality Araya said he implanted a suggestion to be drawn towards Shiki, as if that were the only reason. Obviously anyone in his position would seek help from their savior and desire shelter. It's not like his actions were illogical or as if he had options beyond homelessness. Then Tomoe insists that his love was real despite knowing nothing about Shiki in the first place. Of course he has to be Kokuto's foil and ask to die when Shiki threatens to kill him because edgy romance I guess. For some reason Tomoe gives up immediately at the fight in the beginning after getting the upper hand, and he stands there while Shiki is getting choked by Araya. But it's okay because he gets his one heroic moment that we're immediately told doesn't matter. At the end we have a scene as if he died a hero, when he spent the entire movie being a coward. They never explained why his arm falls off in the workshop.

Darkdaxter said:
Kokuto is 100% useless confirmed. He is apparently great at detective work. But that skill obviously doesn't matter because Toko just has foreknowledge anyway every single time. He says he's going to be a diversion, and then he instantly loses by barely putting up a fight. All this time and he doesn't know how to defend himself. He didn't even have a weapon. Anything is better than a letter opener. Why not give him a dagger too? Why not give him a gun?

Darkdaxter said:
Toko was insufferable after a while. Blah, blah blah, blah blah. I remember thinking her character was really cool a movie ago. Surprise surprise the puppet master has puppets and isn't dead. Also she never used her full power either. Araya admits she could defeat him, and she chooses not to. Why even bother keeping up the death charade for more than a scene? Another character who has zero stakes. How deeply interesting.

Darkdaxter said:
Araya was the only decent character in this one. Exactly how his plan failed makes zero sense. I guess Shiki is so powerful that she can cut intangible things without a body. And apparently super barriers are weaker than regular barriers because irrationality and insanity defeat logic and common sense. Araya talks at first about creating an experiment where a puppet will eventually cheat death. Well here Tomoe is, and he doesn't care in the slightest. In fact he's talking both like his plan failed, and his true plan was to lure Shiki. Why not just create the brainwashed puppet in the first place rather than building a death loop? His ultimate reason for his plot is utterly retarded. He's going to save the people who can't be saved by witnessing their deaths, and he's going to witness everyone's deaths by ending the world. Makes total sense. Araya basically gives up in the second fight. Then when he's falling out the window he says, "The only way I can defeat her is by destroying the whole building!" Too bad Shiki was ALREADY at the window ready to jump out herself in her biggest swan dive yet. A good old 10 story drop to the ground. Utterly pointless.

Darkdaxter said:
The BS pseudodeep philosophical bullshit is in full force. Every character is obsessed with Solipsism and Rationalism. They're constantly talking about yin and yang and the duality of man. Kokuto has to throw in his bisexual remark to make the fangirls rave, so galaxy-brained Toko can remark that all men have a feminine side and all women have a masculine side. It's just a constant onslaught of trite surface level drivel. And the characters WILL NOT SHUT UP. By the end, I was audibly saying, "I don't care," when characters were talking. Just let the movie end.

Darkdaxter said:
P.S. They completely gloss over Toko's involvement in building the apartment complex. Alba for sure built one wing, but both Toko and Kokuto claim that she built the other wing multiple times. At the very least she had a hand in the blueprints, even if Araya ultimately finished the design. Once again she doesn't have knowledge she originally should then later Kokuto's investigations just confirm what she already knows. Is it such a blow to the ego to discover things organically? The selective omniscience always bugs me.

Darkdaxter said:
3 more to go. I'm getting whiplash from these now. Great, potentially good, bad, good, awful. Maybe the next one will be a masterpiece. I don't really understand how since the main characters will never be in serious danger, but whatever.

Man, I think you're confusing yourself here because no lines in the movie said "the apartment was built a year ago" or "the elevator was finished right before the residents moved in". In fact, the apartment was opened to private use around the beginning of 1998. However, the spiral elevator won't be constructed until May. That's also around the time when the murder of Tomoe family took place.

So which part of this incoherent rant of yours explains the contradiction? Dropping school and working a part-time job only helped with his family's financial issue, he did not even try to face them once and support them emotionally. Yeah, he hated their parents, but didn't the movie show his atonement later on? He realized all that hatred was a pure childish impulse, and he was the one at fault. How is that a contradiction then? Btw, Tomoe has been living with Shiki for 8 days, which lines said "no actually 6 months" like you claimed?

He did not talk to her repeatedly, the movie just showed the same scene multiple times. "Shiki can't cut Araya" doesn't make any sense. Shiki can cut through Araya's bounded field (kekkai), however, it's hard for her to cut Araya's lines of death due to his origin "stillness" and the sarira embedded in his left arm. Araya didn't need to heal, he just needed to switch his consciousness to another spare body. Araya controls the building because it's his bounded field. What's so wrong with it? Touko's consciousness switched to her other body right after her death, though the movie wasn't specific on which one is the real her. But the vagueness is a part of the theme, btw.

Without Tomoe and Toko holding back Araya, Shiki would not have awakened on time. Tomoe also delivered the katana to Shiki. Problem solved.

The contradictions you pointed out above aren't contradictions at all, as I've already debunked them. Unlike most movies telling you a linear narrative, this one doesn't follow that custom. If you dislike non-linear stories, that's your gripe, not the movie's fault.

You don't want all your fingers to be the index one, right? It's not that every antagonist has to be super complex with deep motives, big brain or smt. We already have Souren, so why can a minor one not be an edgy psychopath?

Since you repeated yourself, guess I would do the same thing. Without Tomoe and Toko holding back Araya, Shiki would not have awakened on time. Tomoe also delivered the Katana to Shiki. Problem solved.

The theme of identity is a major theme of this movie. What're you yapping about? The way Tomoe behaves and the way Toko behaves throughout the movie, they can't be distinguished even from their real versions. I'm not sure how this is considered boring to you, but can you please name some examples that handle this subject better? Indeed, Shiki saved Tomoe from the thug, but that's just it. Tomoe stuck to Shiki as though he had a duckling syndrome, which was far more than seeking help. Here we came to the part where he claimed he loved Shiki, how come he said that without Araya's deed? You just ironically explained it yourself lmao. Btw, Tomoe is a normal human or a puppet, to be precise. What did you expect from him when facing some powerful opponents like Araya when even Shiki failed so? In the end, his sudden manning up is proof of his existence being more than a puppet. Any problem? And you probably forgot small details due to the movie pacing. Tomoe's puppet body needed support from the building equipment, staying out of it for too long would gradually rot his body. There're several scenes showing him grabbing his left hand, and one scene of Kokuto asking about it.

He is not the mc of this movie, and he's obviously not a superman to deal with these supernatural stuff. Yeah, you also admitted he was doing detective work, so how come he is 100% useless, like, because he did not contribute to the fight?? And which part did Toko have foreknowledge of? She only had an idea about the building's structure, not the details of every household. A weapon like a gun would not work against a magus, anything else?

Let's analyze the word "could", I think Touko also mentioned Araya had a big advantage due to his building. So what's the point of risking yourself?

The building's experiment with Tomoe and others is only to see if a puppet will eventually escape their fate or not, it's not his main plan. What did a brainwashed puppet help with his plan anyway? You thought he was a retard? That's just what magus in Nasuverse are, they're all crazy and abnormal individuals. The 10-story building crumbled, uttterly pointless, so what then??

Except only Touko, Araya, and Tomoe later on seemed to ponder about it. The yin and yang is a metaphorical representation of the theme, and it's not like they're constantly talking about it. If you have any problem, it's again your personal gripe.

The building has got some changes since Touko's involvement, the spiral elevator for example, and the occupied households as well. It's not like she suddenly forgot everything or something similar.

When you said main characters, I will take it as Shiki and Kokuto. For Shiki, in the second and fourth movies, she's been in a coma for 2 years and almost dead as well. She lost her arm in a fight in the third movie and got defeated and captured in the fifth movie. For Kokuto, in the first movie, he was put into a state of unconsciousness for a while, and in the fifth movie, he got beaten to a pulp by Alba. I expect a definition of "serious danger" in contrast from you if the above was not.

Darkdaxter said:
I watched this movie the other day. During and after his investigation Kokuto repeatedly mentions discrepancies with dates, some of which he says are intentional by the builders to disguise their plot. I only watched it once, so I'm willing to admit that I could have mixed dates up a little bit, but I do know that each character that talks about the apartments clearly references different timeframes. And I do distinctly remember them saying the building was built a year ago. You do realize you're only arguing a distinction of a few months? That the completion of the elevator is when ALL 30 families were murdered? The elevator trick wouldn't work if there were survivors. It sounds to me like you're pulling data from OUTSIDE the movie rather than dialogue from the characters in the actual movie. If you have to rely on media outside a presentation, there's a good chance your offering is flawed.

Darkdaxter said:
Incoherent rant? I'm literally listing statements made by the characters in the movie. Again your statements feel more like a knee-jerk defense than actually addressing what I'm saying. He was a child; it's not his job to support his parents emotionally. Anger at suffering child abuse is not a childish impulse. A big part of the problem of Tomoe's character is that his memories of the "before times" are so sparse and come so late. They have a whole conversation about a housekey symbolizing protecting your family (which I thought was a MASSIVE stretch), but the majority of it is just the parents saying they're failing him as parents. And then they failed him even harder.

Darkdaxter said:
My grander point is that there's a lot of evidence that Tomoe was with Shiki for significantly longer than 8 days and when Shiki and Tomoe and later Tomoe and Kokuto are talking they again give differing time frames of exactly when events take place. Rather than demanding I watch the movie again and provide screenshots, maybe try to find the script online? I watched it on animekai.

Darkdaxter said:
You are categorically wrong. The movie shows scenes from three distinctly different days chopped up. There's one day when Kokuto is about to start investigating. There's one day when Azaka is upset that Kokuto left. And there's one day when Kokuto gives Shiki the sword.

Darkdaxter said:
Do you even hear yourself admitting how convoluted that sounds? That's literally just coming up with arbitrary excuses that only matter once in the movie (twice for his left arm). That doesn't change the fact that the mechanic of cutting switches back and forth in effectiveness arbitrarily without clearly defined rules.

Darkdaxter said:
YVagueness isn't a theme. Spiral is the theme. The movie was told in a spiral. And you clearly didn't read my much longer response to the movie. I understand what happened to Toko. It doesn't change the fact the way the characters react to her actions or the fact that it's a massive cop-out that essentially makes her character immortal.

Darkdaxter said:
Tomoe didn't stall Araya at all. Araya chose to stall himself to talk to him. Tomoe immediately loses and then Araya stands there while the elevator goes up and down a few times before Shiki appears. Shiki doesn't even need the katana. She cut along the lines of death with anything, and she just freed herself by cutting without a corporal form. Just because she used a weapon doesn't mean she needed it.

Darkdaxter said:
I have no problem with nonlinear storytelling, I just think this is a poor example of it. Why are you insulting my tastes because I don't like it? Maybe my palate is more refined then yours, no? Disagreeing does not equal debunking.

Darkdaxter said:
They chose to introduce a potentially interesting new character that could easily have been a presence across multiple movies. Why is it so big an ask that the character is impactful and worthwhile, especially considering all the lore dumping connecting Alba to Toko? I want them to show me that connection rather than just tell me about it.

Darkdaxter said:
Tomoe did not STICK to Shiki like a duckling. He was hiding out in her apartment because he was convinced he'd be arrested for murder if he wasn't careful. You can't fall in love with a complete stranger that fast. Shiki's not exactly a conversationalist, but let's assume they had super deep chats for an hour every night. That's still only 8 hours of talking on your time scale, that's hardly enough to really know a person. Tomoe thinks Shiki's hot. Just like everyone else. Media (and real people) confuse lust and infatuation with love all the time. I'd be more impressed if a guy lived with an attractive woman and DIDN'T catch a few feelings.

Darkdaxter said:
I do remember them saying that, but the workshop is beneath the spiral apartments. It's quite literally where the puppets were made. It stands to reason the puppets didn't fall apart immediately after they were born. So why is it specifically his arm that falls off at that moment in that location? The only justification is that the plot said so, and that's lazy writing. They could easily have shown his arm getting damaged over time but chose not to.

Darkdaxter said:
Tomoe moves completely independently from the start of the movie to it's end. Araya's control only enforced the families to repeat their death loops. In contrast to plenty of other stories whether its "Plastic Memories," the original "Fullmetal Alchemist," even things life "Rewrite" and "Mahoraba" there is a much greater exploration into what it means to be authentically yourself in the face of robot bodies, zombie bodies, past selves, split personalities, etc. It's a common trope in fiction that's used countless times and it invites not only Thesus' Ship Paradox but also explores what life and consciousness even are. In contrast Tomoe learns he's a puppet, freaks out a bit, and then continues doing things as if nothing happened.

Darkdaxter said:
Tomoe's sacrifice accomplished nothing. Even assuming the sword was a legendary artifact required to kill Araya (it was just an old sword), he could have accomplished the same thing by throwing it in the elevator and waiting. Toko had the other situation firmly under control, and Araya was clearly in no rush to enact his plan. Shiki, herself, would have chastised Tomoe for it. I can't quite remember, but I'm pretty sure she did as she left the elevator. Either way I do know she berated him for saying he'd prove his love by dying for her. It clearly doesn't have the same weight as sacrifices in other stories.

Darkdaxter said:
In every single investigation he does in the franchise, including the entries I liked significantly more, it's always the same outcome. Kokuto says he'll investigate something. Kokuto comes back with his results. Toko acknowledges that his results confirm all of her assumptions, says she already knows the content, or provides content past his investigation. Case in point: Kokuto investigates the inhabitants of the apartment and says he found information on 30 families. Toko immediately tells him the other 20 families are fake and that the vacancies in the opposing wing are the families' actual corpses. Kokuto is just affirming what the plot decided Toko knows, since Toko has to be the super smart character all the time. Watson should occasionally help out Sherlock Holmes, and even then they're actually investigating together. Toko spends most of her time not investigating.

Darkdaxter said:
If a knife or sword can work on a magus, there's no reason a gun can't. A letter opener stabbed Albas at point-blank range. A dagger stabbed Araya. Self-defense is an obviously useful skill in a dangerous line of work. Kokuto has been doing this job for years and has absolutely zero ability to defend himself, he basically leaves himself open to attack at all times.

Darkdaxter said:
Toko helped build the spiral apartments too. I'm sure you forgot that tidbit.

Darkdaxter said:
Araya literally says, "Are you sure you won't attack me? With that puppet, you're strong enough to defeat me." And Toko tells him, "It's unnecessary."

Don't sit here and pretend one of the heroes knowingly choosing to not defeat a very dangerous foe is not a problem. Any other piece of media would be grilled to death over it.

Darkdaxter said:
Why do an attack that won't hit anyone when it both sacrifices your greatest trump card and your remaining spare bodies? Yeah, I don't know >_>

Darkdaxter said:
A few paragraphs ago you were arguing that Tomoe's brainwashing was essential to his involvement with Shiki. Why even program the clones with directions to find her if it wouldn't be part of his plan? Tomoe is the entire reason Shiki goes to the apartments in the first place. She never would have gone otherwise. Worst case scenario she would have shown up with the rest of her crew much much much later.

Darkdaxter said:
The characters spend about 30-40+ minutes talking about the Taiji and the spiral of origin. It's an interesting concept, but it is an extremely surface level evaluation of that concept. They didn't even address the order vs. chaos component, which would obviously fit the theme. You could have easily had Kokuto, Toko, or Azaka quip about Shiki being a prime example of feminine chaos.

Darkdaxter said:
It's crazy that you would even argue that they don't spend significant amounts of time talking about it in the movie. You're forgetting that they're having conversations with Kokuto, Alba, and Shiki as well. That's every major character.

Darkdaxter said:
The elevator was in the schematics. It's construction was delayed. I also just explained that she knew MORE information in addition to the information Kokuto investigates. So yes. Toko magically knows or doesn't know whatever is convenient for the scene. There is no logical or organic throughline for her character. Part of the appeal of mysteries is discovering them alongside the characters. It's a letdown when someone just magically has the answers, and there is no clear process delineated for getting them.

Darkdaxter said:
I meant Toko basically being immortal since she'll always have another puppet in reserve.

Shiki was unconscious because her powers hadn't awakened yet. Now that she has the Mystic Eyes of Death she is much more powerful. She gets stronger with each movie. Araya literally says to Shiki, "It's clear you were holding back against Kirie and Asagami, or you wouldn't have had that much trouble." If you combine that with her escaping the ultimate prison by herself (and how she defeats the Bomberman in movie 9), it's clear that there simply are no more credible threats you could possibly offer this character. She has become a Superman that destroyed his own Kryptonite cage without outside assistance. It literally comes down to whether she takes a fight seriously or not.

OP characters can certainly work in stories if utilized correctly. A big flaw in this movie and the franchise is that they made a really cool decision not realizing just how overpowered this makes her. She's basically invincible now. If this was the very end of the entire franchise that would be fine, one last biggest bang to go out on. But making this decision earlier on necessarily kills tension whenever this character is involved moving forward.

Darkdaxter said:
Let's not forget Void Shiki IS the spiral origin in the first place

Darkdaxter said:
If you were to write a story about a prince's perilous journey to save a princess, and then when he finally gets to the tower, she has already saved herself; well that negates the need for the prince or his journey in the first place. If Shiki can do everything alone then she doesn't need allies. If she only struggled in her prior fights because she wasn't being serious and defeats the strongest opponent in a rematch without any new tactics, then why should I ever be invested in her fights? This decision not only robs Tomoe and Kokuto of their place in the story but it ultimately undermines Shiki's character. And that's a shame because I really liked her before this.

Darkdaxter said:
You can like this movie all you want. I went into this franchise assuming I'd love it, and I unfortunately didn't. Pretty much every commenter in the forum threads said this was the best one, and I actually think it's the worst the bunch. We can agree to disagree.

Darkdaxter said:
Just going by your profile blurb it sounds like you always look for the new weird interesting thing in your anime. Personally I don't have any problems with a cliche story using tropes. Good writing is always the most important for me.

Darkdaxter said:
Again, you're not actually arguing against the substance of my arguments, you're just trying to win on technicalities. This discussion is pointless. If you can't steel-man the other person's position, then you're just arguing in bad faith.

Darkdaxter said:
If you can't even accept that Shiki's multiple POVs and the other characters' differing positions represent different days. If you can't even acknowledge the grander point about a series exploring the distinction between host and "other." If you're going to just label things arbitrarily as themes because they're in the title (not because the narrative structure and development actually support them as a message to the audience). There's literally no point in talking to you because you're just going to repeatedly move the goal posts, rather than say, "Yeah, I personally believe that this is what the creators were going for but this was clearly portrayed atleat somewhat poorly." You're picking screenshots from a different sub and essentially begging me to screenshot to debate you. But I really don't care all that much. I stated my opinion. I defended it. If everyone else thinks I'm retarded, that's perfectly fine. There will be other people who echo my sentiments, and even if I'm the only one it's fine. I don't even have a computer to take good screenshots with to begin with.

Darkdaxter said:
Have fun liking this movie. I'm going to watch other stuff.

Darkdaxter said:
I had already left this conversation. I opened this site in desktop mode and saw this response, and I can't resist feeding the troll one last time. Because I just find it funny at this point.

Darkdaxter said:
You started out by immediately insulting my intelligence and claiming that I'm just not cultured enough to appreciate nonlinear storytelling. I started out with an aggressive tone towards the show; you started out with an aggressive and combative tone towards me. I ignored the culture point at first because I couldn't think of anything off the top of my head that didn't end up devolving into a series of linear plots. But I mean, I just watched Boogiepop Phantom, and I absolutely loved that.

Darkdaxter said:
I said that you move the goal posts because you repeatedly are. You just did it again. The obvious counter to the Kokuto POV is, 'I know that in every other installment each day in the office is represented by the characters occupying relatively fixed positions, but all these scenes could technically be sequenced into one particular day.' But you didn't reach for that. You immediately went for, 'Well sure, but that is criticism is still invalid for unsubstantiated reasons.

Darkdaxter said:
Just like when you asked for examples of other anime exploring this theme. Instead of saying, 'to be fair those anime all had one or two cours to explore and develop the idea, whereas this is just one movie' (which would itself ignore that a litany of movies have explored this theme well in less time), you immediately pivot to, 'I haven't seen two and the other two are trash.' Their overall perceived quality shouldn't impact the idea of whether or not they explored the theme though. They either did or didn't, subjective opinions aside.

Darkdaxter said:
I'm not admitting I'm wrong because I don't believe I am. I already granted that I might be incorrect on exact details but that doesn't change the overall thrust, spirit, or essence of my argument. And rather than engaging with that, you're quoting the show's internal justification as if that is also automatically justified mechanically in the story. It would be like if a character suddenly jumped 11 feet high and said, 'I just had my legs switched out for prosthetics offscreen,' and then it's never brought up, referenced, or utilized again. It doesn't functionally fit with the rest of the narrative. That's why I keep bringing up analogies to illustrate my points.

Darkdaxter said:
I never claimed to have perfect knowledge of the show or franchise. Obviously a person whose read the LN and/or played the VN is going to know more about the property than me. I responded to that comment with frequently asked questions because I felt I had enough insight to offer some answers and clarification, not because I thought my insight was perfect. You're so busy self-identifying with the show and taking my critique of it personally that you're shadowboxing yourself. I haven't slander3d you once. I merely said that if you can insult my taste then I could easily insult yours. And you turn around and implicitly insult my character again in this endless whataboutism.

Darkdaxter said:
The whole reason I haven't tried to justify my claims with further proof is because that's a massive undertaking. If I really did sit here and watch the entire movie again taking notes and clipping screenshot, you would still turn around and claim I wasn't providing enough context (which is why you haven't refuted ALL of my claims with 30 second clips. It would end in an hour long video essay on a movie I don't care about. Maybe one day when AI takes all of our jobs, I will make that essay, but I don't have to write a thesis to appease a random person on the internet. The whole point of a movie script would be a much faster and more efficient way to analyze the show's entire dialogue in a way neither of us could hem and haw about. By your own admission the scenes consistently repeat throughout the movie, so it's not as simple as providing a single screenshot. You'd have to go through ALL of the dialogue related to each meta-scene in order to thoroughly dispute each claim, each of which would still be distracting from the larger arguments I'm trying to make.

Darkdaxter said:
There are plenty of things that I like that are flawed, and that's fine. I say hey, 'I understand where you're coming from, but it doesn't bother me for this reason. Or I think this other quality more than makes up for it. Or it's just fun in my opinion.' I love Majora's Mask. I think it's the best Zelda game just edging out A Link to the Past. I fully comprehend the complaints other people have with the game, but I still regard it as a masterpiece. It certainly has many flaws, but I still love it. I'm not going to demand every person who thinks the game is trash change their opinion because of whatever arbitrary metric I choose. That would be an extremely hubristic thing to do. I'll state my case and defend my point of view in conversation, and then I'll move on. Because it's okay for people to hate the things I love, or even to irrationally hate me for the things I love.

Darkdaxter said:
As a gift, here's the full quote from those scenes not including the prior iterations. You can see that the spirit of what I'm saying is correct. Souren admits that Touko can defeat her. Touko chooses not to fight because she claims she already lost when she died the first time. It's not her saying she CAN'T defeat Araya. She's saying she doesn't WANT to. She could lose another clone in a victorious battle but CHOOSES not to. Then it's proven that Shiki didn't need any help to come back. Araya confirms that she wasn't fighting at full strength against Fujino. So it's reasonable to assume had she done so that the battle would have gone differently. Even without the katana in the elevator, Enjou had also stabbed Araya with her dagger. You can remove the importance of the specific weapon right there. But hold on. Shiki can use anything as a weapon, including her hands. For example in the next movie, she cuts a lock with a ruler. In the fourth movie, she cuts the lines of death on the flowers Kokuto brought her with her fingers. Araya doesn't say she's incapable of self-suggestion without a weapon, just that she typically utilizes one to do so. And this is after confirming that she is capable of cutting things without even a physical form. She was outside of space, yet she cut a physical barrier. Just because you can take any single line and poke holes in my argument, doesn't deny that putting it in context at the VERY LEAST paints a logical picture with conclusions that contradict the show's stated reasoning. The reasons are arbitrary.

Darkdaxter said:
Well. Now that I've wasted 30 minutes; I'm once again leaving this conversation. I had a few good chuckles.