| Allow me to share my opinion on the matter. I believe a user should be banned if he/she is insulting someone else, alongside with clearly showing some sort of a hostile and/or unwanted attitude. If someone only insulted someone because it was a joke between the two, or to spice up the chat/discussion, then he/she shouldn't be banned. However, the thing is that I see a lot of trolls and flamers out there that are attacking and making fun of others on a way that makes them feel bad, but it is still not direct insulting. For example, when someone needs help or has took his/her time to suggest something, they tear it down alongside with making fun of the user, such as: "This thread is bad, and you should feel bad about it. Not to mention how bad you are, it's amusing. Just go hide somewhere. You've got problems? Sweet. Now leave." I feel like it's the attitude that should decide whether someone should get banned or not, not the specific words themselves. I actively see 3 users around the forums that constantly make fun of others and put them into nothing, and I would love to see them banned, but it is hard to see that happening, unless I actually have a word with the Staff and explain myself fully. Thank-you very much for the thread, I love the activity it has gained. |
Adramelech said: I'll point out three examples that I've had.It is not rocket science to detect if an insult is directed at a friend as a joke or to harass and attack the other person. I don't know if you are not able to differentiate but people generally tend to have that ability. 1. I told Tavor that I'd kill him if you didn't watch x show. Another user failed to recognize that, insulted me (I didn't respond, just reported), and subsequently both of us received a warning, despite my explanation to the mod handling it. Of course Tavor understood it was a joke. 2. Red Keys tells me to shut up for saying "why not", I poke fun at him by saying I can do it because "why not?" Other users jump in thinking we're having an actual argument. 3. Irc. I join in after ban, I start yuckin' it up with people who know me on there, suddenly irc gets muted and we're told not to insult each other. We clearly explained that we were all friends, and the mod's answer was "I do not keep track of who is friends with who". And no more insults were allowed because "people might read the atmosphere wrong". Well okay then. No more friend moments. So no, "tend to" does not mean guaranteed to. People are fucking stupid WHOOPS moist cucumbers, and not even mods were able to determine on their own if insults can be read as a joke or not. |
MellowJello said: Adramelech said: I'll point out three examples that I've had.It is not rocket science to detect if an insult is directed at a friend as a joke or to harass and attack the other person. I don't know if you are not able to differentiate but people generally tend to have that ability. 1. I told Tavor that I'd kill him if you didn't watch x show. Another user failed to recognize that, insulted me (I didn't respond, just reported), and subsequently both of us received a warning, despite my explanation to the mod handling it. Of course Tavor understood it was a joke. 2. Red Keys tells me to shut up for saying "why not", I poke fun at him by saying I can do it because "why not?" Other users jump in thinking we're having an actual argument. 3. Irc. I join in after ban, I start yuckin' it up with people who know me on there, suddenly irc gets muted and we're told not to insult each other. We clearly explained that we were all friends, and the mod's answer was "I do not keep track of who is friends with who". And no more insults were allowed because "people might read the atmosphere wrong". Well okay then. No more friend moments. So no, "tend to" does not mean guaranteed to. People are fucking stupid WHOOPS moist cucumbers, and not even mods were able to determine on their own if insults can be read as a joke or not. Mellow, you're such a cock sucking faggot. WHO STEPS IN THEIR OWN TRASH. |
Kobapo said: A perfect example. I didn't even ask her to do this.Mellow, you're such a cock sucking faggot. WHO STEPS IN THEIR OWN TRASH. She's insulting me, not showing any indication that she's a friend of mine, and uses incredibly ruthless words that may or may not hurt me (as viewed from an outside perspective). But she's a friend of mine. And if you know how things go, white knights will jump on board and either attack her or defend me (or even defend her) for the right to say such things, all without realizing that she was joking. On an extra note, she has few posts, almost no one here knows her, and posted literally out of nowhere. "Common sense" would automatically assume it was shit posting/trolling. But of course, she's joking. Oops. |
| So in the end, the people who live their everyday life with insulting others or insulted will use an insult as a "friendly" thing. So, I think the moderator should ban this kind of people. |
| I like anime. |
| @Mellow 1) and 3) are unjust, the 2) is something that sparks discussions, I'd rather keep that. 3) is actually the most annoying, as I'm like what... The third as lines on the MAL IRC? We romanians show sympathy and friendship by mostly being like "I fucked your mom last night.", and I am serious, that's why I find most posts here pretty asinine. Like really, what the fuck am I reading? "You shouldn't be able to insult anybody.", there there, we shouldn't be able to make fun of people either, but we're doing it, if you want to get rid of one thing, get rid of the others too. As one said before me, we're not robots, discussing should come easy, I for one have to censor myself every time I post something because poor Autocrat believes that Hitler is objectively good (check my sig, and I'm sure you meant something else, you just didn't explain it yet to me). Or when I see things like "Men can use force to get sex, they can simply rape women and get away with it.". No, I won't insult the dude, but I'll probably take a harsher tone with him, why? Because I will meet these people in real life. Dudes, in real life we can't discuss most of the shit we discuss on MAL or the Internet in general, if we have to censor ourselves even harder than in real life, what's the whole point? I'm not against the rules currently in place, I just want them to be followed properly. Sometimes when insults are being thrown there are no consequences, sometimes when it's a little thing, the consequences come in and hit you too hard. I for one haven't been banned for sometime, and I was only banned for insulting once out of twelve, I kept on repeating "idiot" several times, but I heard some dudes that got banned for "stupid" and them saying it only once. And then I've read other asinine posts on here like "You shouldn't be able to judge.", Hell fuckin' yeah, all debates will end in draws, nobody is right because you can't judge shit now. That's like the heaviest censoring possible, on George Orwell's level of censoring. I'll use my signature as an example again, even the mods thought of what was written there as "stupid". Then I see "There are some sensitive issues.", what? Are you being serious now? Like, are you thinking with your top end? Some more censoring incoming, why stop at this? Why not simply ban any discussions that aren't anime? B-But wait, what about people that came on the site and are insulted by discussions on anime, what will we do then? I'm confused, help me! Pat_To_Do-List said: So in the end, the people who live their everyday life with insulting others or insulted will use an insult as a "friendly" thing. So, I think the moderator should ban this kind of people. I think that's called discrimination. @Adramelech I'm sorry, romanians don't have your common sense, we insult each other of family and we don't care about it. What will you do about the 16 million to not say each one of them? Common sense is always relative. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Adramelech said: Except all of those were handled by moderators. And irc should be even easier because there's a mod literally always reading our posts.I am talking about moderation, not the "other" people and I am not talking about the irc. So the first two examples are irrelevant and the third one is the issue of irc. Irc is no place to compare here, it is hard to keep track of "who says what to who" in such an environment. So, that is not really a good example for the mal forum's moderation. Adramelech said: But... all of those were met with warnings from mods? What? Moderators didn't understand or see the intention at all.I fail to see any example where you and somebody else are joking and moderators give you warnings because they didn't understand or see your intentions. It is pretty easy for "other" people to overlook such details because it is not their duty to observe your intentions. Adramelech said: But they didn't take them back. Oops. Sure they can delete it, whatever, but if the warning stays, uhh... no. Refer to Immahnoob's argument as for what the hell "common" is, and in fact "common sense".In case there is no indication you guys are friends and it is a joke (which is not an appropriate example to make a "general" point), you guys can always talk to the moderators and have them take your warnings back. However, I think deleting those messages is fair if there is no indication of joking. Because it both makes the forums hard to regulate and will make other people complain about it which again leads to the same result. You realize that if such messages were common people wouldn't just keep them at the level of jokes, right? Adramelech said: Not rare. Not borderline. Irc happened 3 days ago. Red Keys moments happens almost every day, usually out of sight (because things like these literally happen). And no, you can't suggest we "take it somewhere else". What the fuck slippy slap is a forum for? Closed discussion?I don't understand why you are trying to outcast the "common sense" with such rare and borderline examples. There can always be measures for those "rare" examples. And they are a lot easy to handle because you won't see that kind of thing all the time. Adramelech said: Remove bans on minor insults. Find a system that determines what "minor insult is" (what we can discuss right now). Handle major insults on a case-by-case basis instead of a parameter or what "my common sense" tells me.If you can suggest a judging parameter that is superior to common sense, then do it. I fail to see one. If they actually regulated everything according to the written rules and didn't pay any heed to anything else, that would be a lot bigger of a complaining source since there would be no space for any exception. |
| I don't think you'll ever get to understand what "major" and "minor" insults are. To be honest, major insults would be something like, "I hope your family died in 9/11" while something minor would go to shit like "stupid" or "idiot". And yeah, common sense? OH PLEASE, if I'd use my common sense this forum would burn to ashes, that's why I never used my common sense while I was a moderator. I'm still not sure if you guys live in such a "fabulous" world that you don't even hear insults anymore. NOTE: I used the common sense argument once with a mod to try to get unbanned faster. It didn't work. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Pat_To_Do-List said: So in the end, the people who live their everyday life with insulting others or insulted will use an insult as a "friendly" thing. So, I think the moderator should ban this kind of people. Wait, wait, wait, wait.... So, if I read this right, you're saying people who insult others, or are used to being insulted , will exclusively use insults as a "friendly" thing. What? |
 |
Adramelech said: I didn't insult him. I explicitly said that. I ignored him and reported. Tavor is a friend. I only insulted him. Sure, whatever. Ignore irc altogether then.Moderators gave the warnings to "you and the other guy" because you and the other guy insulted each other, not to "you and your friends" because you and your friends were joking. This is the answer for the first three passages you quoted and answered. The other one is about irc, I think I stated my opinion about it being a very different platform from here and has nothing to do with this place. Also, if a guy misjudged your intentions and you and that guy insulted each other, receiving warnings for insulting each other later; it is fair. You didn't get any warning for using insult words for joking. I thought this was pretty obvious, I fail to see how you cannot differentiate between them. Adramelech said: Well, if you could be more concise with what you're saying, you wouldn't need to make your essay-length arguments. Oh, but wait, that could be construed as an insult, my bad.Thank you for saying nothing in this huge posts, it has been very constructive. Now if you are gonna keep dodging my real points and answering in an irrelevant way I have better things to do. Adramelech said: Make a list of "forbidden" words, make a list of "you can say whenever the fuck you want" words, and make a "we'll figure it out based on context" list. And yes, the point is to discuss what the hell would fit where in this thread, not defer it to them. That's what this thread is for. Of course only a few people are actually doing that but whateveerrrrrrr~"to find a way to determine minor insult". Hell of a solution you got there, good luck with making moderators believe they should find a way to determine it rather than suggesting a legitimate way to them. Adramelech said: Nothing is perfect herp derp. But it's better than the plethora of horrible moderation on this specific problem (of which MAL has many) that me and other users have listed.So, according to that, we can just end this discussion right away by suggesting "find a perfect way that will please everyone!". See? Magic. |
| And that's why I believe that most of these responses here are pretty asinine, I see people that were inactive for a lot of time or rarely post that are like "Insults are always bad." like what they're saying won't interfere with people that are more active than they are. For example, Adramelech is one of them, his ideas of how the rules should work pretty much revolves around common sense which is relative and mostly his education which is pretty much "I don't agree with any type of insults.". I also see Battlechilli that sometimes debates even if his arguments are on the level of "So underground that you've hit diamond, Minecraft style", and tells us that judging is bad, always, only because his education says that, people can't judge each other, they're not "god" I guess, but how will we learn? He'd rather not choose any side, which is illogical. Then Buttdevastator is the epitome of contradictions, that's why I even skimmed through his posts. Then there's Pat-to-dowhatever that barely is active anymore that says that everything that even looks like an insult should be banned. Oh, by the way, Adramelech, IRC isn't a different platform, it's part of MAL. Also, you always run in circles with your arguments, you almost suffer of Autocratite. You never get to the point, and always use comparisons that make no sense. Actually, sometimes you don't even have a point. I'd say we could differentiate between major and minor insults by discussing it, yes. We already have somewhat a "global understanding" don't we? You said it yourself... |
ImmahnoobOct 28, 2013 10:47 AM
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Immahnoob said: This is what confuses me the most. They're defending the rules when they're the least active posters.And that's why I believe that most of these responses here are pretty asinine, I see people that were inactive for a lot of time or rarely post that are like "Insults are always bad." like what they're saying won't interfere with people that are more active than they are. Immahnoob said: I'm going to use an ad-hominem (not even sure if that's right, whatever) attack. Just look hereFor example, Adramelech is one of them, his ideas of how the rules should work pretty much revolves around common sense which is relative and mostly his education which is pretty much "I don't agree with any type of insults.". Adramelech said: Right now, I'm both insulted and offended. He didn't use any curse words, and yet as an OP, I would be "incredibly hurt" by what he just said.Then don't watch it. Nobody cares what you think or what you want. If you don't want to watch it, then don't open threads to make people encourage you into watching it. Stop being so hypocrite. |
Adramelech said: Did I not just say we could ignore it altogether?Can you please leave the irc thing already and answer to what I said about your forum adventures? I am ignoring it because it is "irrelevant". I explained why it was irrelevant with the discussion but here you go: Irc has a completely different interface. There, you can chat "instantly" which causes for people and especially moderators to keep track of the whole argument and detect who insults who in what way. I've been there for some time, it is sometimes hard to detect such a thing even if you have been observing from the initial entry. The chat flows, making it hard to moderate. See? How many times do I need to say this. I hope you see why I give you long answers, to make you realize they are the main points of my argument. Because you ignore them. It all sums up now, doesn't it? Adramelech said: But they were.. jokes? What. Joke insult to Tavor, ignorant user real insults me. I don't reply back. Both warned. Okay..The other examples are also irrelevant because in them moderators give warnings to those who actually insult "without any joke intention". So, it actually shows they are doing it right. Red Keys insult. Regular insult routine as jokes. People think it's serious. Warns issued to us. Well then. Adramelech said: Isn't that what we were doing this entire time? So you perceived me as hostile huh? What was that, your common sense (now I'm being hostile, whoops)? I'm defending my position, I think that should be evident. Make a list of "forbidden" words, make a list of "you can say whenever the fuck you want" words, and make a "we'll figure it out based on context" list. And yes, the point is to discuss what the hell would fit where in this thread, not defer it to them. That's what this thread is for. Now, see, that is what I am talking about. If you tell them like this, then we can talk about them. But what you do is answering in a hostile way, ignoring the vital points then there is no way to hold a constructive argument. And yes, meanwhile we're debating this instead of the actual topic. Adramelech said: It just confirmed you contradicted yourself and, given the rules right now, if he had reported (which we know most people aren't offended [aka the current ruling on insults is stupid tasty] wouldn't do that) you would be getting a warning from that.Then you would report. Instead of seeking a message of mine hoping it would prove me wrong, that may have worked. You are saying you want a constructive environment to argue yet you point out irrelevant things like "you are one of the least active people", "but you did something no-no". It has nothing to do with the current discussion. And I would think that activity would mean "I understand how MAL moderation works" and "I know the MAL community enough to understand where they're coming from". Yes, it does have importance. So you're saying a rookie policeman can perfectly defend the laws he enforces just as well as a veteran? |
MellowJelloOct 28, 2013 10:59 AM
Immahnoob said: Teehee, now look who's using that word :pasinine |
 |
Adramelech said: It's only hostile if you think it is. And so far I still haven't had hostile intentions. Sorry if it appeared that way.Well if you stopped trying to defile common sense from the irrelevant aspects of it, if you stopped using sarcasm in every sentence (I can do that, too, you know? There is a reason I refrain.) then we would have an environment that is not hostile. |
Adramelech said: Yes it is."Reporting something only if it is directed at you" is not a feasible thing imo. First, it is not really logical to ignore the report if it is not from the person who is insulted (and you cannot keep them from reporting). "He said mean words!!" "Was he offended?" "...No" "Ok.. report ignored." Adramelech said: And that mindset is dumb.Second, I know that the current moderation's mindset is the complete opposite, they approciate it most when you don't ignore an insult that is not directed at you and report it anyways. |
|
Red_Keys said: Immahnoob said: Teehee, now look who's using that word :pasinine I actually did that because you were here, and just to prove my point, but that was secondary, teehee. I, for one, don't believe that calling a post "asinine" is insulting. Why? Because as I've said before, it's not a common word and it has a certain sound to it that for not-English speakers or people that don't know a bit of Latin makes it look like it's harmless. Yet it takes a lot of harsh words and puts them together. And I actually laughed at "Sarcasm makes an hostile environment.", OH ME, STOP PLEASE, I can't breathe! If sarcasm bothers you, you have serious problems, you can even use sarcasm to prove your points. And it being "relative" sure is an irrelevant part of common sense, it basically nullifies your whole argument and you're saying it's irrelevant. Autocratite hits again. The thing is, we're all agreeing that the rules aren't just Animecritic, or at least not followed properly, yet people that are inactive like you say otherwise and just put us in the shit. We post a lot more so we know each other better, we are the ones that debate the most, so we're showing off our debate style (yes, posting style can't be changed, your style remains the same, that's why I can detect who is using an alt). You guys don't do anything on the Forums and most of what you say is unfounded or simply bad. If you don't actually use a feature, you can't say it's "good" or "bad" even subjectively, it just makes you look bad. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Red_Keys said: Please don't make me report you.Adramelech said: And that mindset is dumb.Second, I know that the current moderation's mindset is the complete opposite, they approciate it most when you don't ignore an insult that is not directed at you and report it anyways. |
| There is no such thing on MAL, Adramelech. Most of CD would be happy with no rules on insults, if you want to use "collective-will" then I completely agree with you. LETS BLOW THESE FORUMS TO ASHES! |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| Yeah, and as I said, it's too destructive to be used as the "common sense" of this site. It's an insulting debate filled maniacal slaughtering shitfest, that's what the collective will would look like, but I should add more adjectives. And what I mean by "It doesn't exist" is it doesn't exist in the way you think it does, it's exactly the opposite of the "common sense" you'd think about. Oh, by the way, this one is also pretty relative, some people will disagree with me. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| No but seriously, what is wrong with my idea? If nobody is offended, then what's the problem? If they are offended, they can report it and let that user know that they do not like to be insulted, resulting in a warning and the insult removed. If it continues, that is a bannable offense. Each person reacts differently to insults. So each case should be treated differently, with the most important factor being the reaction of the one insulted. |
|
Adramelech said: I have literally no idea what you are trying to say.I thought I already said that would make insultation cases become more common and then there would be people who are offended, there would be a lot of them. |
|
| It seems to take a lot more time and people don't like that. And yeah, most people will be like "I am offended by everything, stop talking to me.", and yes, this is a hyperbole. I, for one, am offended by people that don't know that there is no such thing as objectively good. TheAutocrat's words offended me. Adramelech said: If you let insults go because the person they are directed are not offended, then people will start to adopt the insults in their arguments more and more. Because "why not"? There are no measures against it anyway. Either you punish all of them or don't do anything about them. There is no mid-way. And what would be the problem with adopting them in your argument? I find that they spice things up. And how is there no mid-way here? From what I know, insults also have a spectrum, between minor and major insults there can be %. That way you can say that minor to mid-minor should not be banned while mid-minor to the rest should be banned or warned, or similar. Mid ways can easily exist here. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Adramelech said: I disagree with that completely.If you let insults go because the person they are directed are not offended, then people will start to adopt the insults in their arguments more and more. Because "why not"? There are no measures against it anyway. Somebody's posting style is determined by their personality, not the way others post. And measures against it are reporting them when they are aimed at you. Adramelech said: What?Either you punish all of them or don't do anything about them. There is no mid-way. |
|
| I believe it depends on the context and the way you "say it". But no, I don't think it's really against the rules, it kind of sounds abusive from a certain point of view, it takes away freedom of speech. Ohoho~ I love where I'm going at. @Red_Keys People don't really understand that my post style is aggressive/mockery type in certain ways that I belittle their arguments and them. My posting style has definite rules that remain the same, they were formed during my years of debates. (There's more to it of course, I won't go into detail, I'd betray myself) I can't change it, people just think posting style can be changed, but it just isn't you, personalities don't truly change. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| I'm saying that the rules should be changed to a "ignore unless reported by the insulted user" policy. Idk what you're going on about with "midway" or whatever. |
|
Immahnoob said: That way you can say that minor to mid-minor should not be banned while mid-minor to the rest should be banned or warned, or similar. Mid ways can easily exist here. Here Adramelech. And also, yes, the midway thing really makes no sense here. I'm just going with the flow because it's fun to argue. My posting style sometimes consists of complete mockery of the opposition, that could be seen as offensive or insulting. You're taking away my freedom by trying to ban me for it. It is an issue. It doesn't make sense even if you say it's about the "bans" themselves, yes, you're either banned or not, but instead of that you can use warnings. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Battlechili1 said: For quote-chaining, yes. For insulting, it depends if the user is offended. Wait, who's offended? I dunno. Oops.By the way...Is telling other users to "shut up" against the rules, especially when told by multiple people as a group? It could count as harassment (in one thread..?) so.... uhhhh... *brain stops* Yeah. Battlechili said: We all know you're referring to Chang.And in case anyone thinks its what I'm getting at, no, I do not wish to tell users in this thread to shut up. |
| Ok, well I'm suggesting the rules should be changed, so as to avoid that ambiguity. |
|
| And I think nobody here understands the actual problem. We have problems understanding the actual context, the harm it produces and if it's actually relevant that that harm was produced. One would be offended because his argument would have been called retarded, that's a warning, one would be warned not to call people's arguments retarded, because it's against the rules. But if you can truly argue that an argument really is "retarded", is it a bad thing? I want to be able to judge people's arguments, because that's the whole point of it. There's this rigidity that annoys me in both your ideas. And here you have midways, which are called exceptions to the rules, which almost always exist in reality. As we said before, if you want the collective will to be the rules of these forums then make me a moderator and I'll completely destroy these forums, unless you want me to actually follow some actual rules like I did on other forums I moderated in the past. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| My opinion on that is that an insult to an argument ≠ an insult to a user, especially if backed by legitimate reasons. And what I'm suggesting isn't if somebody calls somebody retarded, and then gets reported by that user, a mod warns them not to call people retarded. I'm suggesting the mod warn them not to call that person retarded. And if it continues after the warning, they can be banned for harassment. |
|
| Everyone will say they got offended, so we're going back to the initial rules again. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
| What? No, I disagree that "everyone will say they got offended". I'm not even sure what you mean by that. |
|
Red_Keys said: What? No, I disagree that "everyone will say they got offended". I'm not even sure what you mean by that. Most people would do it in spite, "He said I'm an idiot, I'm offended by that.", then they'll keep on doing that with every user and any insult. You won't be able to use any insult, I don't believe this is an actual hyperbole, I'll give you an example of a game where the word "Report" comes out every 3 minutes of the game at any division, AKA LoL. So yeah, we'll get back to the initial rules, it's not that hard to understand. |
Play League of Legends here! Autocrat said: Hitler was good, objectively. |
Battlechili1 said: By the way...Is telling other users to "shut up" against the rules, especially when told by multiple people as a group? And in case anyone thinks its what I'm getting at, no, I do not wish to tell users in this thread to shut up. If a person contributes something of little worth to a thread which is not appreciated by anyone (or even the opposite, it causes irritation) and continues to repeatedly contribute despite the fact that they have been informed that their affronting posts are not wanted, then I could hardly see why they should be banned for expressing it. Certainly if there is a common consensus within the forum/board/thread that the posts are degrading then why should they be banned for trying to silence them? Should people be banned for trying to shut up trolls? |
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