[Spoilers] Does Naruto really have a plot hole?

Aresnalfan said:
@OppaiMan

Man, why are you arguing with this dunce? he clearly just want to argue for the sake of argument. He asks things that were clearly and literally stated by the manga.

Looks at how detailed your posts are, and how little words he bothered to write, and how he dismisses your point in weak arguments.

Don't indulge him.

judals said:
1- so it's not a factor in his indeciciveness and an unnecessary argument.
3- Yeah because he totally didnt know she'd say no, especially sice he had just killer the third, and all the stuff he did in the past, again refer to my next points as to why prioritizing tsunade was a dumb idea (on the author's side)
4- lol yes it does. So now you're arguing he didnt have the scroll probably? That makes no sense, to transfer to sasuke only to sacrifice that to get his arms 3 years later.

6- which is why he should have spent the time on it rather than wasting it on a chance that she may agree.
You are basing your whole argumet on that everything this villain does, every morsel of his plan happens to be a miscalculation at that time. Not a very strong argument.
Him miscalculating sasuke's arrival makes sense, but eveything else? No.
Even so, he could have summoned an edo uchiha just to get them the mask from that shrine at the same time. OR, the rendezvous would have been at the shrine,
You said it yourself, it's on the outskirts of Konoha, so Sasuke wouldnt even need to go far.

judals said:
Another plot hole... Or just an incredibly stupid plot point; after Hidan vs Shikamaru, rather than stab him directly, hidan was just chilling creating a ritual to stab him. Shika was just right there laying in front of him for god's sake.


As for the images, oppa I did see them, and most replies are directed at then than the sidesteppy paragraphs anyway.

OppaiMan said:


Well that's why I gave you the chapter number and even quoted what the characters said.

And your plot hole, oh my god here we go again. I said you don't understand the characters in Naruto and this proves it. Hidan is a freaking masochist. He likes to torture himself and that's why he prefers to kill his enemies by cursing them and then stabbed himself (to experience the pleasure of the pain) instead of killing them directly.

judals said:


Thank you. I was expecting this sado/maso excuse.
So... He was such a masochist he simply stabbed himself directly in the heart? That's hardly even torture. Only would make sense if he'd taken his actual time, this is rather half assed. He's neither efficient nor sadistic/masochistic.
He was living the shonen trope called conveniently waste time to lose. Oh and kishi wanted that cool plot twist of Kakuzu being stabbed instead.

See, looks like I know them better than you.

judals said:
"Clearly going round and round" because an other kept saying it and this is more "patting on the back" or you can prove it?

Me reiterating my points to point out how it's a plot hole, due to the other person dodging/ignoring them, may be repetitive, but not going "round and round".

Just look a Oppai's arguments, they contradict each other, on second oro found the scroll before the arc and when he couldnt refute that, turns out he never found it, and seemingly oro never bothered to actually gather other requirements.
Him wanting to use sasuke's body THEN find the scroll makes no sense.


Re-read my post about hidan to explain why he did it.

MoeGod said:


He never said Oro wanted to use Sasuke's body and then find the scroll. He said Oro misjudged his endurance and his original plan was to bring Sasuke to the hideout and then continue the research (in case they haven't found the scroll). Nowhere did he mention Oro was going to transfer to Sasuke AS SOON AS Sasuke arrived. Is that still not clear enough?

He merely considered both the possibilities of Oro having found or haven't found the scroll yet. WHICH didn't matter anyway because in both cases, Oro still wants Sasuke? capiche?

As for Hidan, I think you really need to re-read the entire arc. SLOWLY. If you don't even understand what happened to Kakuzu, me explaining it here won't do any good. It'll just turn out like OppaiMan

judals said:

No. It was not stated by Mr Oppai but you can see it if you watched/read the part.

Oro was desperately waiting for sasuke for immediate transfer, shown by his backup plan being anoter body. So yeah, if the scroll truly wasn't found by then, this is what it implies.
And that means sacrificing sasuke's body only 3 years later, or stay without arms. His claim of
Capiche?

I'm not questioning the plot twist, but the induction of said convenience to force the plot twist into happening. It's like you don't get what I'm reading. How you got that "i didnt understand te kakuzu twist" is beyond me.

I think you need to have a re-read in general to have a more critical look on the subject.

judals said:
Yes, as an emergency, which was already taking place, he had to take a body immediately. So waiting for sasuke in the first place, knowing he'll lose the body after three years is stupid in itself. Even if sasuke arrived in time, this entire plan is pointless.
You don't seem to have read my post, estimating how long his body can last is a miscalculation, fair enough, but now they have this problem at hand, expecting to transfer to sasuke is illogical in itself.

judals said:

His original plan of what?if Tsunade, you guys refuted that point yourselves when you said he knew it would fail.
You still havent shown any proof of WHEN exactly he found it, your speculations are of no interest to me.

judals said:

Yes but not when it's OOC.
What the hell? I did not ask for explanation of how shikamaru did it. Did you read my post? And my other post reaffirming that this is not the case?
My point was: Hidan stabbing himself served nothing logical, only to cater for that plot twist.
They forced him to act OOC in order to carry out that plan.

Yes. I think you have.

judals said:
You seem to either not understand the logic behind this, I'll make it as simplistic as possible:

During said emergency:
1- oro had no scroll
2- oro needed immediate body.

This means: body transfer will have to happen before the shinigami stuff.

In other words, whatever body he uses will be wasted three years later when he uses the scroll.
While that did happen with the other body, it makes no sense for him to wait fo Sasuke anymore DURING the already occuring emergency.


So for while there, he really wanted to transfer into sasuke and then use the scroll later.

Yes slowly, with Asuma, but so fast with Shika... Is that really hard to grasp.
He's sadistic as much as he's masochistic. As such, he happened to conveniently forget and just go with one stab.

Why? Let me put it this way, had he inflicted more damage, shika's actual blood would be there and he'd be affected by the curse. This plot armor had hidan just conveniently rely on thst iffy scratch he made and forget he has this butthurt against Shika and just cuts straight to the point. Literally.


If by works differently as in it actually does, I agree.


I think we should stop since this is the least place to have an intellectual conversation and it already turned into narutards back-patting eachother.

ryanginting said:
at the fight against Shikamaru he's acted OOC.
Hidan stabbed his own body right in the heart after cursing his opponent is unusual.
because Hidan way of thinking is "feel my pain" like judals said it's hardly any pain when you got stabbed right in the heart. yes it's hurt but not Hidan usual "pain".

and after the fight? no ritual? it's not like Hidan at all killing people without completing the ritual. Shikamaru can half cut Hidan neck because he don't do the ritual that he always do just to make Shikamaru can get the upper hand..
so yes, he's just forced to act OOC to complete the arc.

ryanginting said:
of course he can take his sweet time playing with Shikamaru bcs he's immortal. if he did this and let his guard down and get fucked up to piece then bravo Shikamaru you got a hell of a nice brain.
even against Yugito, do you see how Yugito ended up? and then you say he can't make that happen against Shikamaru? and then you'll say it's because he's with Kakuzu right? yeah of course you'll say that there's always an excuse.

but this, he stabbed his heart? if you watch Hidan personality when he had a grudge against someone he tortured them to died not just plainly killed them(like against Chiriku and Asuma).
when I say not feel a pain when stabbed in heart i'm talking about Shikamaru not Hidan, Stabbed in a heart is not tortured at all (from what I used to watch cos I never got stabbed in the heart) even against a Jonin class like Asuma, how many hit did Asuma take? yeah a lot and that is Hidan, tortured people to died.

and don't forget about ritual, he ALWAYS do his ritual and this time somehow he just don't like to do it? and then you'll say because he want to regroup with Kakuzu or something like that he NEVER bother about Kakuzu about his ritual, whatever Kakuzu said he ALWAYS done his ritual even though Kakuzu keep complaining about his ritual.

I personally enjoy Naruto Shippuden a lot but I never thought this show is flawless, it's a good thing arguing with one or two thing that doesn't feel right. =D

ryanginting said:
of course he can take his sweet time playing with Shikamaru bcs he's immortal. if he did this and let his guard down and get fucked up to piece then bravo Shikamaru you got a hell of a nice brain.

ryanginting said:
even against Yugito, do you see how Yugito ended up? and then you say he can't make that happen against Shikamaru? and then you'll say it's because he's with Kakuzu right? yeah of course you'll say that there's always an excuse.

ryanginting said:
he stabbed his heart? if you watch Hidan personality when he had a grudge against someone he tortured them to died not just plainly killed them(like against Chiriku and Asuma).

ryanginting said:
when I say not feel a pain when stabbed in heart i'm talking about Shikamaru not Hidan, Stabbed in a heart is not tortured at all (from what I used to watch cos I never got stabbed in the heart) even against a Jonin class like Asuma, how many hit did Asuma take? yeah a lot and that is Hidan, tortured people to died.

ryanginting said:
and don't forget about ritual, he ALWAYS do his ritual and this time somehow he just don't like to do it? and then you'll say because he want to regroup with Kakuzu or something like that he NEVER bother about Kakuzu about his ritual, whatever Kakuzu said he ALWAYS done his ritual even though Kakuzu keep complaining about his ritual.

I personally enjoy Naruto Shippuden a lot but I never thought this show is flawless, it's a good thing arguing with one or two thing that doesn't feel right. =D

ryanginting said:
when he got moved from the circle first time it only works because Asuma is there. and I told you of course he can take his time because for god sake he's immortal it doesn't matter whether he's inside the circle or outside Shadow Binding has his own limit

I'm not talking about "how" he beat Yugito, what I'm trying to say is a Jinchuriki class shinobi like Yugito got his ass kicked to half dead by Hidan.

watch again the Hidan fight, Hidan does his ritual when the 'curse' is still in effect, I mean when his body is still black and that's mean the cursed one is still alive.

and again I told you earlier stabbed in the heart must've been hurt but that's not Hidan usual way of sharing "Pain", look at all of people who fought Hidan, all of them are bloodbathed, that's Hidan way of doing thing, and yet Shikamaru is not hurt at all.

so what I'm trying to say is, Hidan kill people by stabbed them in the heart with his curse, BUT not just stabbed the heart out of the blue, he torture them like he did with all of his previous prey that's why this time he is out of character.
and then you say Hidan curse people and then just stabbed him in the heart without any usual torture is Very Hidan-ish.

even without Hidan become stupid like this, Shikamaru will still win because Hidan has a great weakness. it's just this is doesn't feel right.

and again, please don't say stupid thing like "Hidan think that.." or "Hidan want to..." or "Hidan feel is.."
this is Naruto Shipuden not tsudecimo Shipuden so don't decide character feeling or way of thinking by you're own accord, you're not the author.

Kaimon said:
With all these walls of text I can't tell if I've really forgotten this much about the details in this series or if it really has gotten this convoluted over time.

DrGeroCreation said:
I'm not sure if this is really a plot hole but it doesn't make sense to me how none of Hashirama's descendants (not even his grand daughter Tsunade) inherited Mokuton. If Sharingan can be passed down then why can't Mokuton be passed down as well?

tsudecimo said:

Because the Mokuton was exclusive to Hashirama himself, and not the senju clan, like the Sharingan and the Uchiha.

DrGeroCreation said:
Why is that though? Kekki Genkai's are usually passed down.

Dimitrije1606 said:
In anime I didn't notice any big plot hole. In manga, there is

tsudecimo said:

I'm guessing because it was a nature transformation/chakara element bloodline limit. It can only be copied or attained by DNA re-modification (i.e Yamato) or if someone is capable enough to create it.

It was created by him. There is no specific and strict rule that says every bloodline limit will be passed down, and it's not comparable to something like the Sharingan, or that bone thing with Kimmamro, since those are exclusive to a clan.

What I actually wanted to know more about was the wood sage thing. It makes it even more evident that it was something only exclusive to Harishama and nobody else. Well he can't be called the God of Shinobi for nothing.

DrGeroCreation said:
Yamato's DNA and Madara's DNA were not remodified for them to attain it, all they needed was the first hokage's DNA to achieve it. That means it is part of Hashirama's DNA and should have been past on to his offspring . On Youtube some guy said that he probably learned the sage mode from the slugs because the markings on his face are similar to Tsunade's.

tsudecimo said:

That's what I meant...maybe I should have been clearer or just say Yamato's experiment.

That's because not everyone was able to attain the power simply by having the cells or his DNA.

''Orochimaru, desiring Hashirama's unique abilities, exhumed the First Hokage's body for his own experiments where he infused sixty child test subjects with cells harvested from his remains, hoping that one would prove able to use Wood Release. Only Yamato survived the process''

That means having the DNA alone does not mean instant access to have his unique power, that he alone was able to use from all the other Senju's.

I see, that's interesting. Thanks for the info.

DrGeroCreation said:
Why is that though? Kekki Genkai's are usually passed down.

IntroverTurtle said:
Maybe none of his descendants are gifted enough to awaken it. He only has like a few descendants. Most Uchihas didn't even get the sharingan IIRC.

Ryukatsuka said:
[spoiler] Or he could just be a genetic freak and Mokuton is a recessive trait and a genetic mutation

tsudecimo said:
I didn't watch the Kakashi anbu filler arc fully, but did they give focus to Yamato's backstory?

DrGeroCreation said:
You are probably right but that begs the question awaken it?

DrGeroCreation said:
You are probably right but that begs the question awaken it?[/spoiler]

Ryukatsuka said:

Yes, at great length too. You're kinda missing out on a lot of information, especially since that little arc's nature as a filler is questionable. It could really pass off as canon with how many holes in the original plot it filled.

OK. I assumed anyone who'd come here would be familiar with the manga too, but will do.

tsudecimo said:
*This is a manga spoiler btw* I think..

Kinda of an illogical assumption. This is the anime sub forum. Hell, a couple of weeks ago, I was an anime only watcher too..

DrGeroCreation said:
@Ryukatsuka Okay that makes sense. I have a theory that

Ryukatsuka said:

DrGeroCreation said:
I'm not sure if this is really a plot hole but it doesn't make sense to me how none of Hashirama's descendants (not even his grand daughter Tsunade) inherited Mokuton. If Sharingan can be passed down then why can't Mokuton be passed down as well?

ryanginting said:


this is quite simple I think, because none of Hasirama descendant have both Water and Stone chakra nature at the same time. while Sharingan, all you need is some Hatred and uchiha blood to awaken it.