Clannad ~After Story~ Episode 22 Discussion

Splitter said:
It's still a deus ex machina, even if it was introduced at the start. In fact, it's even more shameful for being there from the start and remaining entirely disconnected from the main story until the final episode when "oh hey, look! the stories mix together for a super miracle happy ending where everyone lives!"

The fact that they showed it at the beginning doesn't erase the abrupt and immediate effect it had on the main story, and in the final episode no less. It's still a deus ex machina by nature.

DL21 said:


Entirely disconnected from the main story until the final episode ? I don't think so. We see the light orbs in episode 19, right after Tomoya reconciliates with his father, and 21, right after Ushio and Tomoya's death (the big blue thing that you see). You just have to pay attention.

Snorlaks said:
To be honest, I personally didn't find anything here to cry about.

TQ said:

Deus ex Machina refers to a problem that is resolved "suddenly and abruptly" (in this case) by the introduction of a new idea. The difference here is that this whole light orb scenario was set up from the early episodes of season 1 ongoing. It wasn't an "oh here we've made something up at the last minute to twist Clannad's ending" sort of thing, but a prepared concept planned and built on from the start.

Onibokusu said:


The light orbs are only stated to be there when something causing happiness occurs, and if one was to collect enough, a wish could occur, or something.

Tomoya went on no collecting sprees, he didn't absorb these balls of light after the arcs either. It just happened, unexpectedly, in the final episode.

Kaarosu said:


This.
And I agree to anyone who says this was a piece of shit ending.
Was rushed and it kinda killed the mood that was set up by the previous episodes.
I can only say this; "What the fuck?"

Tomoya's psychology developed in his dreams of a bleak world where small orbs of light float around called the Illusionary World (幻想世界, Gensō Sekai?). In the first few dreams, he sees a world devoid of all life except for one girl (and grass). Each time he dreams, he finds out more about the world. Tomoya discovers the girl has a special ability to fuse junk together to create new things, with which she creates a body for him. Thus he is reborn in this world, and fills time following the girl around. Tomoya conceives that only the two of them are "alive". To pass time, Tomoya and the girl try to build another doll with more junk they find, but as it has no soul, it fails to come to life. Remembering a distant world where he came from, Tomoya convinces the girl to build a ship so that the two can escape the approaching winter and continue a happy life. Eventually, winter sets in, and the girl becomes cold to the point where she cannot move any more. Upon meeting this tragedy, the girl tells Tomoya that he has another chance to go back and make things right. To do so, he must collect certain "lights" (symbols of happiness) similar to those floating around in the Illusionary World. If all the "lights" are collected throughout both story parts, a chance to save Nagisa from dying in childbirth will become available, and the true ending where Nagisa survives and lives with Tomoya and their daughter Ushio will also become available.

Onibokusu said:
The light orbs are only stated to be there when something causing happiness occurs, and if one was to collect enough, a wish could occur, or something.

Tomoya went on no collecting sprees, he didn't absorb these balls of light after the arcs either. It just happened, unexpectedly, in the final episode.

TQ said:

That's the idea: he collects one after each arc in a steady accumulation. Episode 19 was when Tomoya finally nabs enough of these light orbs (with the last requirement being from his dad) to grant his wish by 21. It's this whole "save Ushio" dramatization which happens later as a result. And now we're back to our controversial conclusion.

Onibokusu said:


"By 21". That's either a reference to his age, or the amount of light orbs he recieves. Neither of which occur as you state.

Tomoya doesn't receive 21 light orbs, he receives around 4 or 5. And Tomoya is much older than 21 by the time his wish is granted.

Besides, did you see all those light orbs? There were more there than he ever collected. And that's another reason why it's a dues ex machina.

DL21 said:

No, 21 refers to episode 21.

TQ said:

That's the idea: he collects one after each arc in a steady accumulation. Episode 19 was when Tomoya finally nabs enough of these light orbs (with the last requirement being from his dad) to grant his wish by 21. It's this whole "save Ushio" dramatization which happens later as a result. And now we're back to our controversial conclusion.

burntlettuce said:
True, he may get a light orb for each"good deed" he does, but when the only purpose of these light orbs is for the deus ex ending; it still makes them a poorly used plot device.

ZangetsugaTensho said:
Well, I just finished it today. I love how everyone came back to life, but the episode itself was a bit rushed. They should have come out with another special explaining everything a little more. I was a little more happy with the recap special explaining everything that happened as well as the girl sleeping under the tree at the end. It's just to assure us that it is indeed Ushio.

To be honest, I personally didn't find anything here to cry about

MelbShaw said:

Can you find another anime that's about a student who grows n learns about how important family and friends are, graduates, goes through marriage, having a family, and live through life? As well of being portrayed better than Clannad? If there is than I'm missing something out that's even great.

MelbShaw said:


I believe Clannad is more of a family anime not a action or adventure kind of thing aight?

Onibokusu said:


Itazura na Kiss.

burntlettuce said:


This is one of my problems with Clannad. Everyone claims it a family anime ect...But when the hell do I actually get to see, you know a family? I would not have mind all of them being trolled back to life, if I actually got to see this so called family.

ginytah said:
everything in clannad is about family, every arc. you have to be blind to ignore that. mei and sunohara, The story about tomoyo and his family, Kyou and Ryou, Yukine and the gang, Fuuko and her sister, Kouko and joshino, The way Akio and Sanae gave up on their dreams for nagisa, Tomoya and his father, and last but not least, Tomoya nagisa and Ushio. If you didn't see the family in it, did we watch the same show?

kaleidome said:

Side note: Fuko really, really irritates me.

gr33nm4n said:
I don't see how people can say the original/first half was bad.

gr33nm4n said:
The thing about Clannad is how deep it is.

gr33nm4n said:
Seriously? Your complaint comes down to basically a couple episodes involving the same sequence of events.

Like I said, knowing the end, you need to go back and rewatch the entire thing, Clannad + Clannad AS.

If you still think its bad, then I don't know, we either just have very different tastes or you have the depth of a cereal bowl.

Kaiserpingvin said:

Please.

Explicate.

Do you mean the whole imply-but-don't-openly-tell-people-we're-setting-up-for-a-deus-ex-machina thing? That's one hell of a weird kind of "depth", but that's the closest I can come up with.

Onibokusu said:


Itazura na Kiss.

gr33nm4n said:


Ok, This is my take on it, take it for what you will...

I don't consider the multiple dimension plot as a deus-ex-machina device unless its used at the very end with no forewarning (LOST).

In Clannad, the entire story, from S1 to AS begins with the IW and constant references to other characters having experiences with the other world to which the town and characters seem to be tied. The entire series builds upon this theme, with each conflict that is presented and resolved building upon the final decision that Tomoya makes, that being to not have talked to Nagisa would have been a poor decision.

Immediately evident are the slice of life conflicts that each character is presented with. The episode where Ichinose receives the suitcase from her parents on her birthday...c'mon. That one was a tearjerker for me, and this wasn't the only subplot for me where the emotions were palpable, but aside from all these occurrences...

Tomoya lives a tragic life separate from the instances of him and Nagisa helping to bring happiness to others in the town is what gives Ushio the ability in the other world to give Tomoya and Nagisa the chance to start over. Only this time, the sickness that Nagisa and Ushio suffered from is cured exactly because Tomoya and Nagisa worked to make their present world a better place.

It can be inferred that this isn't a "reset" as many call it because in the final time line where Nagisa & Ushio are cured and live, Tomoya and Nagisa retain their memories, whereas before they could feel the other world or had some knowledge of it as is hinted at during the episodes including Ichinose.

If you completely ignore what is happening throughout the show between the characters involved and Ushio in the other world, then yes, its a very shallow dues ex machina resolution. To me, taken as a whole, it was an awesome spin involving philos, agape, and eros love spanning over a multidimensional world centered on one small town and its inhabitants.

For example, most notably Nagisa being tied to the town's nature after her father makes a contract "with the trees" when she was Ushio's age so she wouldn't die. The ongoing theme (and constant reminder) of the town and its natural beauty being destroyed is analogous to Nagisa & Ushio's illness and repeated quotes by Nagisa that even though it may change it is "their" town and they can't run from it, rather they should make it a better place. Which they do by helping each character find happiness as mentioned above.

I also see think of the spot where Nagisa as a child is given a 2nd life sort of speak reflects this since its mentioned that a hospital is built there. There is dialogue to support this when one character comments that its a place people come to get better.

That all being said, I recall a Far Side comic strip wherean archeologist is shown wearing a toilet seat cover around his neck saying something along the lines of "This was most likely a ritual headpiece worn in ancient rituals". I was a philosophy major and I tend to read into things, but for me, all the above was apparent.

TL;DR - The slice of life conflicts and resolutions, showcase of different forms of love, how the characters are tied to the town in an almost Shinto-spiritual like way and then slowly transitions to the beauty of the town being replaced by the beauty of their friendship, and constant behind the scene multi-dimensional aspects of the series is what makes it deep. But I was asked to explicate so there you have it.

Amen.

TomDawn said:
Episodes 1-8: As bad as original Clannad
Episodes 9-21: One of best slice of life/drama anime, ever

And then we get the retard miracle ending with episode 22. The first few minutes of it are nice, and they should of ended it, In my opinion, with that Nagisa/Tomoya hug scene just to show that even with all the sadness and despair he is glad he met her.

But no, Tomoya gathered the dragon balls and re-winded time. QUALITY writing right there.

AALT said:


exactly what i think.

i can't say that i don't like happy endings and the "and they lived happily ever after" thing, but this is just to irrealistic. honestly i'm very disappointed with this end.

opeth_syndrome said:
lol its anime and people are moaning about it being unrealistic.

opeth_syndrome said:
realistic!?!? how is anything in clannad realistic, its full of unrealistic characters who do very unrealistic things.

clannad4ever said:


oh come on guys why do you have to be so bitter?:)
watch the last episode from the 1st season,and you will realise why's this such a great ending

opeth_syndrome said:
Btw im pretty sure Clannad means family in Gaelic.

gr33nm4n said:
Ok, This is my take on it, take it for what you will...

I don't consider the multiple dimension plot as a deus-ex-machina device unless its used at the very end with no forewarning (LOST).

In Clannad, the entire story, from S1 to AS begins with the IW and constant references to other characters having experiences with the other world to which the town and characters seem to be tied. The entire series builds upon this theme, with each conflict that is presented and resolved building upon the final decision that Tomoya makes, that being to not have talked to Nagisa would have been a poor decision.

Immediately evident are the slice of life conflicts that each character is presented with. The episode where Ichinose receives the suitcase from her parents on her birthday...c'mon. That one was a tearjerker for me, and this wasn't the only subplot for me where the emotions were palpable, but aside from all these occurrences...

Tomoya lives a tragic life separate from the instances of him and Nagisa helping to bring happiness to others in the town is what gives Ushio the ability in the other world to give Tomoya and Nagisa the chance to start over. Only this time, the sickness that Nagisa and Ushio suffered from is cured exactly because Tomoya and Nagisa worked to make their present world a better place.

It can be inferred that this isn't a "reset" as many call it because in the final time line where Nagisa & Ushio are cured and live, Tomoya and Nagisa retain their memories, whereas before they could feel the other world or had some knowledge of it as is hinted at during the episodes including Ichinose.

If you completely ignore what is happening throughout the show between the characters involved and Ushio in the other world, then yes, its a very shallow dues ex machina resolution. To me, taken as a whole, it was an awesome spin involving philos, agape, and eros love spanning over a multidimensional world centered on one small town and its inhabitants.

For example, most notably Nagisa being tied to the town's nature after her father makes a contract "with the trees" when she was Ushio's age so she wouldn't die. The ongoing theme (and constant reminder) of the town and its natural beauty being destroyed is analogous to Nagisa & Ushio's illness and repeated quotes by Nagisa that even though it may change it is "their" town and they can't run from it, rather they should make it a better place. Which they do by helping each character find happiness as mentioned above.

I also see think of the spot where Nagisa as a child is given a 2nd life sort of speak reflects this since its mentioned that a hospital is built there. There is dialogue to support this when one character comments that its a place people come to get better.

That all being said, I recall a Far Side comic strip wherean archeologist is shown wearing a toilet seat cover around his neck saying something along the lines of "This was most likely a ritual headpiece worn in ancient rituals". I was a philosophy major and I tend to read into things, but for me, all the above was apparent.

TL;DR - The slice of life conflicts and resolutions, showcase of different forms of love, how the characters are tied to the town in an almost Shinto-spiritual like way and then slowly transitions to the beauty of the town being replaced by the beauty of their friendship, and constant behind the scene multi-dimensional aspects of the series is what makes it deep. But I was asked to explicate so there you have it.

Kaiserpingvin said:

Clannad is a band. Nothing else.

If Maeda had actually used a dictionary instead of his discography he'd have known the proper name should have been Clann. Well, if he now really needed it to be in a foreign language. Which I can't see why he did. It was a very Japanese story.

Also, not Gaelic, Irish.

TomDawn said:


Wow..Just...

The 2 main characters aren't your typical anime retard characters, they maturely, there isn't much/at all slap stick humor when the anime reaches the important arc.