| I went ahead and added Parasyte. I wouldn't be opposed to adding Mirai Nikki, though I recall there being some controversy about that earlier. For the record, I thought that the show's handling of sexual violence was exploitative and basically for shock value. Indeed, while I enjoyed parts of the show, the whole thing felt to me like a big exercise in shock value.... |
| Oh you can add Mirai Nikki. I didn't think it was sexist so much as just stupid and shock value for the sake of shock value with HUGE GAPING HOLES IN THE PLOT EVERY 5 MINUTES. The handling of rape was of course awful, but like, I didn't think the men of the series were treated any better. It was just a bad series, so it doesn't bother me either way if you add it or not. |
| Even though I really like him, most of Buronson (Hokuto no Ken, Sanctuary...) works are very sexist. Women are either idolized or whorified, they ALWAYS need a man to stand out and when they do it alone they stop when the man comes. In his most adult works rapes are the usual, even the background I'd say: you can see an important character talking with another while he casually rapes some random girl. I like his job because sexisms apart it's quite good, but sexism is a huge turn off when it comes to this man. |
| If it has solution, don't bother; and if it hasn't, why bothering? Do you like manga? http://gunjoteam.com |
| I'm pretty sure it's on our list already, I think that was one of our very first entries, ahahaha. |
| It's definitely on the list. Rest assured. ^^; |
| Is Diabolik Lovers that thing you streamed when it was airing, Amber? Or am I mistaking it with some other crap like Brothers Conflict, as they all look the same to me. |
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wisteriax said: Earwen said: How so? For starters, let me state that I have absolutely no problem with the female characters already involved in the system. I don't take any issue with characters such as Nona and co. as all things considered, they are handled reasonably well. However, the issues regarding the female contestants simply cannot be ignored. They are portrayed in a consistently negative light, often falling back on the Madonna-whore complex through actively condemning the women that engage in sexual relationships yet rewarding those who stay 'pure' and prioritizing how they appear in the eyes of other men. I saw many people call the relationship depicted between the contestants in the third episode sweet, yet most willingly ignored the female contestant’s plastic surgery and how she was also condemned for it through people (male characters) gossiping about her at her workplace. Likewise, although the sixth was a comic relief episode through and through the fact remains that the contestant didn't want to soil herself in front of the male character to the point where she was all too willing to fall to her death. Also, keep the female contestant from the first episode in mind. Although she had quite obviously regretted her affair, and although her friend certainly did exist as proven by the ending sequence, she was still demonized in comparison to the male contestant, her husband. If he was in possession of a more understanding nature, and if he truly cared for his wife, he would have talked over what he overheard in the bathroom to clear up any lingering misunderstandings between them. But he didn’t, and so his jealously and rampant paranoia, not to mention his inability to trust her, quite literally drove them to their death. While it's been painfully, painfully clear that the show is more about exposing the flaws within the judgement system (as it keeps whacking us over the head with a cartoonish mallet every bloody episode), it still does not excuse this behavior. And of course, that's not to mention the most recent two-parter which possibly has the most egregious examples of Death Parade's mistreatment of female characters, where their role amounted to being fridged and little else, serving as targets to be murdered and assaulted. Now, I'm not forgetting that the entire point of the death games is to dredge up the most sinister emotions the characters have buried deep within and show them at their very worst (coming back to the entire system being flawed thing). But in comparison to the female characters, the males almost seem rich and multifaceted with often compelling stories whereas the females are written with an almost indulgent stereotypical bent. Pretty much this. Even if we take into account Decim's lack of better judgement it IS a choise made by the writers and it IS a choise meant for the audience to use in order to judge the character. The fact that the second episode HAD to explain how a woman that has an affair can actually be a non shitty overall person like it is such a big plot twist reeks of slut shaming. Oh wow" the man actually tried to kill her but we had to explain how she didn't deserve to go to hell for a one night stand." LOL. |
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iristella said: Even if we take into account Decim's lack of better judgement it IS a choise made by the writers and it IS a choise meant for the audience to use in order to judge the character. The fact that the second episode HAD to explain how a woman that has an affair can actually be a non shitty overall person like it is such a big plot twist reeks of slut shaming. Oh wow" the man actually tried to kill her but we had to explain how she didn't deserve to go to hell for a one night stand." LOL. I personally thought that the first episode had enough bits that hinted Decim was wrong even without the second episode having to explain it. Or at least enough to make it ambiguous. For example, there was the subtle moment when the woman bit her lip just before the outburst and the whole outburst feeling so overdone that I couldn't help myself but think it's deliberately done so (i.e. that the "bitch" part was her deliberately taking on that role). A friend and I had a whole discussion about the judgement after the first episode aired, speculating whether it was justified or not. That was before the second episode And it wasn't just us, even MAL users had quite diverging opinions on who was in the right. Personally, I believe all that is a sign that the episode was not black and white in its presentation. But anyway, that's pretty much what I had to say on the topic of Death Parade and I won't comment further as I don't think I can contribute anything more to the discussion, but I will say that I think there's more to the series than the two initial episodes hint at. |
metamorphiusMar 20, 2015 4:09 PM
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| The entirety of Decim's flaws in decision-making lead to one of the main themes of the series and are a central plot point. Not to mention that both characters were grey and offered multiple perspectives. Spoiling it would ruin the fun of the show, so I will refrain. However, reducing the entire topic to just a simple "it's sexist because he sides with the man" argument is - quite frankly - dumb and undersells the leitmotif of the show by a large margin.As meta and others have already mentioned, the show provides more than enough reason to justify its storytelling. It has other problems, but they are surely not sexist. If you want to complain about seasonals that are sexist, start with Shigatsu and it's horrible framing of abuse that basically amounts to "it's okay if a cute girl does it". Now, that's a truly sexist show you should talk about. PS: Decim's first decision is imho by far the hardest decision in the show. For a good reason: This is done on purpose as the importance of hard decisions needs to be brought into the viewer's attention. It leads them to question the theme the series brings up and making it easy for the viewer to decide for a single side would undermines the series' credibility. The entire discussion on rather superficial sexism is imho needed, but greatly blown out of porportion. If artistic integrity and the need to ask controversial questions through fiction or art in general creates a necessity for statements that alienate parts of an audience, so be it. The worth of a discussion on a larger level far outweights the offense of single individuals. |
NidhoeggrMar 20, 2015 4:34 PM
| Jojolion anime when? |
| No one said ""it's sexist because he sides with the man". What I said was that we have attempted murder on one side, cheating on the other and we are talking about shades of grey as if those two are even comparable. ( btw we get to explore the whole mental process of the man reaching up to the point of attempted murder but in the woman's case we totally lack context. The burden of adultery is enough to condemn her in the viewers eyes) The whole first episode is based upon the stereotype of the unfaithful money hungry wife. It builds narratively upon this stereotype in order to subvert it later. And by subvert I don't mean deconstructing it or actually posing a critique, i mean the cheap plot twist. It'was not a hard decision and it shouldnt be treated as such really. It was an awful decision for reasons which are not even touched by the series itself let alone highlighted. It's not about Decim's POV. It's about the narrators' POV concerning not only the individual stories but the characters themselves. Oh and by the way when we are talking about social justice, feminism, intersectionality and all that jazz we are talking about how the oppressed and the minorities, get to -you know - partake in fiction and art without their personhood being stripped and without adding to their oppression. Just like everything in society is subject to criticism , so is art as a product of social construct and normes. Artistic integrity and issues like representation, stereotype deconstruction are not mutually exclusive and should not be presented as such. If you wanna raise issue on Shigatsu feel free to do so yourself. I find your need to dictate the content of other people's posts disturbing. |
iristellaMar 20, 2015 5:19 PM
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| So if there is a story based on preconceptions on gender it's not sexist cause the female archetypes are running everything? Is sexism something that oppresses only women? And is it only a problem regarding who "drives the plot"? That can be applied in general. |
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| I m sorry, since when women's media are considered sexism free? XP Cause that's not what I m getting when I open a random female oriented magazine for example. It's not about getting a free pass. Actually it's not our pass to give for other people's private lives. Cheating is not an admirable act for sure. But it has different consequences for different genders. There are many times that a man is considered an "Alpha Male" and a player for having multiple partners without their consent. Or is excused by the "boys will be boys" mentality. A woman's cheating is much more unforgiving under the public eye. And let's not forget that it's one thing to say that someone was not honest, or that he or she is a liar and another to use the derrogatory heavily gendered words that are used to describe female sexual behaviour. In this case the cheating did happen as it is showed by the wife's POV. We don't know why or how. We know it happened and that it was a one time thing. The thing is that even if her acting was true and she truly didn't love her husband, she wasn't the one that killed two people and tried to kill one more. Think about it. Is attempted murder ok? In modern reality aren't we appalled by people who kill other people based on their sexual conduct? No matter how he judged the wife by sending the man to the reincarnation he justified homicide over having your partner cheat on you. Do you really believe that the show could have pulled such an erroneous decision off if it wasn't based on the preconceptions about female infidelity and the money hungry manipulative bitch stereotype? I don't know guys and girls. I totally respect different viewpoints , but I must say that it baffles me that it took a second episode to explain that Decim was wrong and that we are talking about a "hard decision" here. PS: I also have an issue with the whole " wife that takes on her shoulders her husbands mistakes". Not only it's a corny overused route but it was really poorly made here. PS2: Excuse me for not being elaborate enough on certain things. It's not that I don't want to but each time I remember these episodes I go "Ugh. Nopenopenope." :P |
iristellaMar 22, 2015 2:38 PM
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| I was just about to post examples to support cipheron's arguments but then I looked at your list and realized you dropped/held it at episode 2. So let me ask you: Why do you - someone who dropped the show early on without even witnessing anything the series does with the theme it established ON PURPOSE with the flawed decision-making in these first two episodes - claim to know the entire unfolding is sexist and go on to rant about serious problems with cheating when it is basically completely unrelated to this anime at large? Especially when literally 95% of the season is more sexist than the show you adamantly press forward? Do not take out your personal frustration regarding a serious issue on an unrelated piece of fiction that uses it as a small subpoint to illustrate and display problems about judgement and the morality and rightenousness of judgements. You come off as forcefully trying to push a series into a wrong direction simply because of ideological reasons and honestly: Your implication that I was the one trying to oppress different opinions while at the same time proclaiming that there was only one right decision is both hilariously ironic and kinda sad on an intellectual level. Sadly, i think this post may be wasted as well as so I might as well just retreat. |
NidhoeggrMar 22, 2015 3:34 PM
| Jojolion anime when? |
| It makes me sad that I have to go back on my word about not commenting further on Death Parade, but I have come to see the series in a new light. Once I caught up with the latest episode, I dawned up on me. I am completely in favour of it being added to the list, although for different reasons than most people in here. The series is highly sexist and misandristic and it makes me sick to the stomach that people praise it, giving all these terrible tendencies a free pass or, even worse, not noticing them at all. Just look at that episode where Nona exerts physical violence over Ginti, thus reinforcing the disgusting idea of female on male violence being all right or even funny. Furthermore, it gives a nod to the portrayal of males as not being able to control themselves and having others stop them, which is frankly, appalling to see in 2015. I will admit this is but one episode of Death Parade but as it has been proven here, I think it’s more than enough to condemn the entire anime. Off to the sexist list with it, off with it. |
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Nidhoeggr said: because of ideological reasons and honestly: Your implication that I was the one trying to oppress different opinions while at the same time proclaiming that there was only one right decision is both hilariously ironic and kinda sad on an intellectual level. > If you want to complain about seasonals that are sexist, start with Shigatsu and it's horrible framing of abuse that basically amounts to "it's okay if a cute girl does it". Now, that's a truly sexist show you should talk about. >Blah blah blah You should talk about that. >Blah blah you must watch every seasonal. We talk by seasonal standards. >Not trying to tell you what you should talk about. okay.jpg. :') So if I can't talk about what I have actually watched, and I can't seem to get an answer as to how difficult of a decision is to choose between infidelity and murder for the suspension of disbelief to be maintained (or an answer as to how separate episode tropes and mentalities are related to the flawed decision theme that has to do with a certain character). I guess I ll stick with over how many episodes is a series considered problematic. I ll make it intellectually challenging by demanding a formula on this. I mean can we actually talk about a theme in a work of art that has actual implications irl or are we just being frustrated? If there is something even worst out there can't we talk about anything else? God forbid we talk about sexist tropes in a group about feminism and anime. D: Stay classy guys. :) |
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| You can talk about it in a sensible manner, but what you do is basically ignore all arguments in favour of pointless whining because you dislike the show. I was merely stating that in the grand scheme of things - at least to me - your complaints are utterly irrelevant and silly and seem to be purely driven by your personal dislike you seem to try to elevate here simply because you feel personally offended. And sorry to break it down to you: You being offended about it does not negate the fact that it is still a better written and less sexist anime than virtually 90% of the entries you could have choosen to rant about instead. Meta and cipheron already put forth arguments, I see no reason to repeat them. And yes, we can talk the show instead of being frustrated. Unlike you. For me, this discussion is over because I cannot see you actually argumenting against the causes they both put forth and it is clear that you would rather go for ad hominem and disguise your contempt for diverging opinions you view as invalid with silly emoticons than actually admitting that siding with both sides is at least in theory possible and was emphasized on purpose to faciliate the main theme of a series you won't even see unfolding as your entire opinion on this matter is set in stone fromt he start already. Also, regarding the inclusion of Parasyte: I agree that it's female characters are hit or miss but I don't think adding any anime to the list that is not completely progressive is a viable solution either as we have to add basically 90% of every season to the list then. I also quite enjoyed Reiko and think she is probably the best character in the entire show. Though you can probably add 90% of LN anyway. I don't think it is even needed to go into details for adding shows like Infinite Stratos, Absolute Duo, Highschool DxD and all the other harem LN. I mean, in later Highschool DxD volumes we have talking tsundere boobs <.< |
NidhoeggrMar 23, 2015 10:51 AM
| Jojolion anime when? |
| This thread is about ethics in the afterlife. It's ok Nidhoeggr. It seems that we have a different understanding about how a conversation should be conducted. I have no problem with diverging opinions. I have no problem talking about a show that I dislike. And I have no problem accepting the fact that different viewpoints may never find a common place. I do however feel that it is strongly inappropriate to dismiss opinions as "stupid" "sillY" especially in a supposedly feminist non ableist space. I have a problem with the boys vs girls mentality that exists in many of the posts in this conversation. I have a problem with people gaslighting in a space that is supposed to be safe-ish. I do have a problem with the fact that I came here to discuss a show and there is someone that wants to make me defend myself because I didn't pick another show of his imaginary list of approved shows to talk about. I do have a problem that you keep talking about "personal offense" and "whining" regarding personal views on a show, which is kinda exactly the reason for which this group was created according to the intro. |
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| For me it's just weird that you are criticizing a show on the basis of 2 episodes out of 12. Isn't it a bit too little? |
| Members are welcome to discuss any show in this club and any points of representations of gender in those shows, regardless of their importance to the narrative, as plot or other narrative elements aren't our primary concern if unrelated to gender. This isn't a writing or review forum, although members are free to discuss those things if they want. We're here for fun. When we're discussing representations of gender, we're often discussing single scenes or lines of dialogue that interest us. (Larger trends or related subjects too.) Those can provide very interesting starting points for discussion, e.g. Shigurui is not about homosexuality, but I've seen interesting discussions on the representation of homosexuality in one episode lead to broader discussions of representations of homosexuality in anime. We may find one scene or element of a show problematic while finding other elements empowering or fun. It's not often black and white. We're just asking questions and sharing thoughts here, having interesting conversations. Let's please not dismiss each other's opinions or name-call. Let's keep our cool, even when we're fans of shows. Thanks. |
| @Steppenfuchs Actually I am critizing the first two episodes of the show. If you look through my posts you ll see that the first one was written early March when I had a bit of time to check what was going on around in terms of anime . The series was ongoing and I said a first view estimation. Since I am not regular in MAL groups and forums I don't often follow the discussions and when I saw a person above asking "why so?" i thought I would give a late response as to why I said that. When I saw the first episode I had concerns about the characters themselves but as you pointed out since it is indeed too little to judge the overall plot I focused on the mentality with which the first two episodes were written. I have issues with the way each problem is presented and executed but since we caught early on that Decim is not the best arbitrator out there I kept it out of the conversation on my part. The point I tried to get across is that with or without context some things (^explained above) should be handled a lot better. If anyone can justify in terms of plot how you need two episodes to explain that sending a cheating wife to the void instead of a murderer is a bad judgement, kindly pm me. To me this is not a matter of general plot structure. This is bad writing that stems from personal belief. Imagine needing two episodes in order to expose that imprisoning 12years someone who stole a loaf of bread isn't propably the wisest sentence. Wouldnt you question the writers sense of justice if he/she presented it as a "difficult decision" comparable to a murderer's 12 years sentence? |
iristellaMar 23, 2015 1:19 PM
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| Okay then, let me put it in a different perspective. In this case the cheating did happen as it is showed by the wife's POV. We don't know why or how. We know it happened and that it was a one time thing. The thing is that even if her acting was true and she truly didn't love her husband, she wasn't the one that killed two people and tried to kill one more. Think about it. Is attempted murder ok? In modern reality aren't we appalled by people who kill other people based on their sexual conduct? One main point in the show is that the arbiters are not human. They lack empathy. They lack emotions (even though that plot point is imho a load of bull and one of the glaring writing flaws but let's assume Decim does because he is really the only character that - ironically given the series' context later on - is almost non-emotional for the bulk of its run). He is there to judge, not to feel empathy or to be confined by human expectation of what is just and justice. And the morality, justification and perceived rightenousness of an act are not inherently tied to the "honesty" of the action itself. Decim literally doesn't care if we think the decision is wrong or right. Or if we side with one person or another. Or even if the act is more severe. He cares about the reaction during the games, the condition the players display and the honestly of their action (to the true character of their soul) on which he bases his somewhat *arbitrary* decisions on as an *arbiter*. No matter how he judged the wife by sending the man to the reincarnation he justified homicide over having your partner cheat on you. Do you really believe that the show could have pulled such an erroneous decision off if it wasn't based on the preconceptions about female infidelity and the money hungry manipulative bitch stereotype? I guess the notoriously jealous, dominating, easily aggrieved, impulsive and hotblooded man is okay? Both parties are displayed as unfavourable here at times, but it is how they behave despite their shortcomings that we and Decim base our/his judgement on. The main difference is that Decim - due to his lack of empathy and nature as a non-human entity - only sees the "honesty" of the act. Namely the man acting impulsively and true to his original character (which is not at all positive), whereas the women lies. We - as human beings capable of love - can see the reason for lying. But Decim only sees "dishonesty" and makes a false decision. And lo and behold: The assistant, the expy of human emotions - or rather: The viewer's possible emotions in regards to said judgement - strongly criticizes him for neglecting the noble idea behind her act. Even the superiors of Decim in the show seem discontent. Later on we learn So where is this sexist? I can only see a logical buildup to a central theme that was established from the getgo and is aware of its own questions it raised. |
NidhoeggrMar 23, 2015 1:39 PM
| Jojolion anime when? |
| @ Nidhoeggr Of course the notoriously jealous dominating easily aggrieved hotblooded man is not okay! Did I ever say that it was a contest? Did I ever say that it is ok for Nona to hit the male character and abuse him? If you combine two sexist stereotypes they don't negate each other. It doesn't make things "fair" it makes them shittier. The thing that keeps me baffled is that as you pointed out we are not Decim. We don't have Decim's point of view in the series. We can easily deduce 1) that the decision was wrong at least by human standards, 2) Decim needs to step up his game. So why go through all the trouble for a second episode where they spoonfeed us the "twist". Unless of course they thought that the first was so convincing that needed analysing. Why would there be people that didn't get it? Maybe because in real world the mentality of "burn the cheating *****" is actually a thing. So you have a series that uses some of the worst preconceptions about both genders and normalises them in order to try and subvert them later. It exploits these tropes, it doesn't explore them. And it is all because of "lack of trust." PS1: The superiors did nothing to stop the judgement PS2: Are you really sure that the viewers emotion were always not in favor of Decim's decision. Cause this is not what i ve experienced in many online discussions. I quote " Iristella wouldn't you kill your husband if he cheated on you?" Actual line. |
iristellaMar 23, 2015 1:57 PM
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iristella said: So you have a series that uses some of the worst preconceptions about both genders and normalises them in order to try and subvert them later. This anime is about judgement, so obviously they show people doing evil things. I wouldn't say that they present their behaviour as something gender-related. Nobody said that "all women cheat". Actually, there're more cheating men than women in the whole series (if we include OVA). |
| Well, them basically repeating episode 1 was a bit annoying for me as well but if you look at the general MAL discussion you quickly realize one thing: Most anime fans are kinda dumb and need to be spoonfeed. This is why so many anime are exposition heavy in the worst kind of way and it is one of my mayor gripes with the medium. I mean, this is a site where people constantly need to be told by the characters that they are developing via an uninspired monologue and where people do not get the symbolism of Ikuhara's Yuri Kuma Arashi. That's not sexist that is merely unneccesarily dumbed down to appeal to a wider audience. To view that as malicious intent seems farfetched. Also, what Steppenfuchs said. If we step down from showing this kind of behaviour simply because some oversensitive people feel offended we quickly end up in an enviroment where any controversial fiction is quickly eroded out of fear against public opinion and loses a lot of its potential impact. And I will never comporimise on dumbing down art, especially not to please the opinion of a few sheltered individuals who might feel discomfort about it. What should Death Parade have done instead? Display a huge neon sign that says "Cheating is bad and so is killing people". Always portray the female party in these type of shows in a favourable light to "promote a better image and fight sexism"? That would destroy any credibility and would lead to a personal resentment of the staff on my side. Not because they fight for a cause I do not support, but because they resort to such shallow tokenism and dare to compromise on their artistic execution. |
NidhoeggrMar 23, 2015 2:11 PM
| Jojolion anime when? |
| Well Haibane Renmei was about judgement too. Okay not fair example. Point is. Judgement isn't necessarily always about evil or the lesser evil. You can be judged and pass with flying colours. I do recall the OVA. I also do recall that there is quite the difference between how long the ova lingers on the man's cheating and how long it lingers on the woman's infidelity. I mean.... As a person didn't she amount to anything more than a wife? Nidhoeggr said: And I will never comporimise on dumbing down art, especially not to please the opinion of a few sheltered individuals who might feel discomfort about it. So it is ok to cater to the privileged majority than the oppressed minority? Sheltered? As in I live this kind of mentality every day and I really don't appreciate it in my easy time? Yeah I don't think we are gonna agree here. A good idea would be to critisize normes and challenge them. Instead of spending time in the gore, shock factor and impropable behaviours maybe analyse why there was such a "lack of trust as the series put it". Maybe on the irony of wanting a good wife by flaunting your career and then complain that she married you for the money? |
iristellaMar 23, 2015 2:13 PM
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| I can think of a lot of men and women that are quite dull, but I digress. Was her entire past - or that of her husband - even really relevant for the plot in these episodes? Not at all. I don't think we need to see 10 minutes of completely unrelated subtext displaying their achievements prior to marriage. We can all easily assume that they both had a nice job, some good friends, a lot of distant friends, a few family members they really cared about, etc. But it still doesn't matter as the (lack of) cheating was the main point here. |
| Jojolion anime when? |
| Well if we take into account that they are being judged by their honesty or any other quality, shouldn't all aspects of their lives matter? Don't all of your experiences and not only those shared by a significant other make you the person you are at this point? |
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| Good question, Death Parade will hopefully answer them in the final episode because - as I said before - they actively try to figure that out. Decim himself expresses his utmost respect for fulfilled lives throughout the show and I guess his conclusions will arrive at such a point eventually. PS: Art should never be dumbed down. If it has a vision it should stay true to it, no matter if it offends a few people or even if 90% of the population do not get it. However, agreeing with that vision is an entirely different matter. Write another Mein Kampf for all I care, but be prepared to be put into jail because of demagoguery once you publish it. And rightfully so Someone please put the writer of Mahouka in jail, please.... Likewise, stupid tokenism that disregards the plausibility within the fictional content and destroys internal consistency will always be a negative in my book. |
NidhoeggrMar 23, 2015 2:27 PM
| Jojolion anime when? |
| I think that the whole point of free speech is people not going to prison because of a book. So if you accept that "one can write whatever he wants" why do you object on the " I as a recipient of that art can critique it". It's not about tokenism. It's about the fact that if you are gonna write your version on the human condition inevitably you are gonna put parts of your relation with society in it. And you should be ready to receive critisism in multiple levels from people that have a different place in the same society as yours. If you generate culture and the culture you generate is only cis str8 able bodied white people you may create a work of art great in some aspects but severely lacking in representation. And by making certain artistic choises apart from propagating you keep marginalised groups of people invisible. So yeah art is not that detached from society thing that people do and magically appears. It has cause and effect. |
iristellaMar 23, 2015 3:11 PM
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| Free speech does end at a certain point, but the process of creation is an entirely different matter. Alas, no point in opening up another topic since you clearly struggle with the ones at hand right now. Also, please stop with these assumptions like "cis str8 able bodied white people". This isn't tumblr, we actually discuss like adults here. Surely, the creators are human and they are obviously educated and brought up in a specific society. I, however, struggle to see straight white European males aka the evil of all mankind on the staff list for this anime produced in Japan. And do you seriously advocate quotas now and imply that being straight/white automatically leads to you marginalizing and being inherently anti-minority? That's fucked up and kinda sexist/racist from you. So tell me, are women even allowed to be portrayed badly in Death Parade for you or would that be inherently sexist? Seriously, you project your personal deeply rooted problems with parts of the Western society into a completely unrelated topic for no apparent reason and advocate to step down on artistic integrity simply because you feel offended. That is the exact kind of compromise not being based on internal consistency I was criticizing. Especially since- once again - the entire point of the first two episodes was to demonize both parties to drive home the main theme. It's like talking to a brick wall here... |
NidhoeggrMar 23, 2015 3:58 PM
| Jojolion anime when? |
| Nidhoeggr is not cis str8 able bodied white person, he's a lindworm. Stop deceiving people, Nid. |
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Nidhoeggr said: Also, please stop with these assumptions like "cis str8 able bodied white people". This isn't tumblr, we actually discuss like adults here. The word assumption means that you take something for granted. It's quite different from posing an example about the creative process in a theoritical level. An assumption is for example you taking for granted that me disagreeing with you comes from me being sheltered, that i have personal deep rooted problems with part of the western society (which kinda contradicts being sheltered but whatever) etc etc. The fact that after all this talking you keep thinking that my problem is that a woman was negatively portrayed in a random story, and that creating a work of art solely with a category of people = belonging in this category of people signifies that I am not the one struggling here. Anyway since I m guessing you don't enjoy "talking to brick walls" and I don't enjoy toxic behaviours I sadly put a stop to this adult discourse on my end. PS: Representation =/= quotas. PS2: you can discriminate against a straight person but that's not sexism cause sexism is institutionalized and supported by daily practices. Even if I said what you attribute to me (which i never did nor implied) it would be discriminatory on a personal level. |
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| >Someone has a different opinion so I'll leave Obviously you're free to do as you like but really? |
| Can we add Yuri Kuma Arashi? The characters are very infantilised and sexualised. Also sexual violence for example main character gets her clothes ripped off by an adult and it isn't portrayed as being bad, the main character doesn't seem to mind it at all, when honestly this would be shocking in real life. There are a lot more instances than that but honestly I'd rather not try to remember them. I wish I didn't watch it but honestly there are so few yuri shows and this was made by the guy who made utena so I thought it had potential to be something great. Oh how wrong I was. |
| I hesitate to add anything Ikuhara to the list before watching it myself. Any other opinions? |
| A lame second opinion incoming...well, eggfish's complaints aren't unsubstantiated, those things do happen. There are also a few other problematic examples I could think of, yet I also think the anime has some genuine merits. It's just that Lesbears lost me after the first, say, 4-5 episodes due to how little I cared for any character, so I don't even feel like either attacking or defending the show. It says something when, in the last episode, I cared more for In short, I'm neutral about this. Or rather I don't feel like discussing Lesbears anymore. Why am I posting then... |
metamorphiusApr 3, 2015 9:10 AM
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| yeah, meta no offense but you are no help at all :D Eggfish, what do you think of this review : http://www.themarysue.com/yurikuma-arashi-finale-recap-episode-12-yuri-kuma-arashi/ the end part specifically |
| Thank you, as per usual in this thread, I'm trying my best not to be of use. Actually, I only commented to ditto that the things eggfish complained about could be considered problematic. EDIT: I myself was going to read that article on The Josei Next Door, but it was rather long, and I forgot to bookmark it. Well, adding it to "read later" now. EDIT 2: Read it. Well, I can say I agree with the author about the importance of Twintail x Robot Bear moment. It is, for me personally, the best moment of the show, which is kinda sad (I fail as an Ikuhara fan), considering everything else that's happened in Lesbears. EDIT 3 (oh, man): This reminded me, a person on MAL mentioned differences between shame and guilt societies, and I do think that could be interesting in the context of understanding/analyzing Lesbears. |
metamorphiusApr 3, 2015 9:46 AM
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| Haven't seen the show, but I'm intrigued, meta. How do you think a shame society influenced the show? |
| Hmmm, how should I put this in a way that's understandable to anyone outside my head? Well, let's try... Japan is, as far as I, an outsider, can tell, much more concerned with conformity than I've noticed in Europe (and North America, although I have to rely on other people's experiences for that). This all ties in with the social concepts such as wa or haji. As they would say, "a stake that sticks out gets hammered down" and all that jazz. You know, knowing your place in the society and acting accordingly. I remember when I just started watching anime, every so often I'd see a mother, father etc. say how a character "has brought shame upon the family" with some action. And I was like, "So what! Why are you making a fuss over such things? My hair'd have turned grey if I obsessed about bringing shame upon the family as these people do". It was just weird from my perspective. Anyway, one of the core themes of Lesbears (bear with me using this nickname, I'm used to it) is ostracizing. We've got a school where students "exclude those that are evil". As they put it, "people who can't follow social cues are evil" [direct quotes]. The importance of this is repeated all the time to students in classes or any official sort of the student body gathering. Also, it's notable that [spoiler, but nothing too specific] The Lesbears society looks almost like some dystopia, which I am sure is deliberate, but it also, in "ikuharaesque" way, seeks to allegorically address this particular mentality present in the Japanese society, among other things. I don't think shame and guilt culture are mutually exclusive and I understand that the terms may be dated to an extent. There are elements of both in a given society, as shame and guilt are universal, and I guess it's usually a matter of general dominance of one over the other. So yeah, most themes in Lesbears can be applied to the West as well. Still, I believe that having some general understanding of the whole idea of shame culture can be of help to, if not understand, then at least put Lesbears in the context a bit. Aaand, I think that's it. I didn't exactly bother to explore this in depth as I admittedly was not terribly taken in by the anime, so don't mind if this all sounds incoherent. P.S. Despite its flaws, I don't regret watching this anime. Ikuhara's stuff is bound to have a lot of flair, and Lesbears is not an exception, even if I think it's by far the weakest of Ikuhara's trio (not counting Sailor Moon here). |
metamorphiusApr 3, 2015 3:10 PM
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| Very interesting! It sounds like Ikuhara, since YKA's fictional system shames those who cannot follow social cues and are therefore different/neuroatypical, may have been critiquing the uniquely conformist aspects of Japanese society, since there are South Asian cultures, for example, that could be deemed shame cultures but which do not value conformity as much, although that conformity is generally present more in collectivist societies, I suppose. Or is the show's message more about following the rules and order? Aren't all teen cultures conformist? Lol. Good to hear your perspective too, Kaceseev! Definitely nice to hear it's not another tragic gay romance, as you said. |
new_userApr 5, 2015 1:58 PM
| Yeah I agree that I think YKA had some pretty good (if very confusing, after all it's Ikuhara) themes, I just felt like a lot of the fanservice was completely unnecessary. I didn't really connect with the characters though, and felt they were pretty simple and infantile and it annoyed me how often they repeated some sentences, like they were trying to hammer the message into our heads. YKA is kind of hit or miss depending on the person. I'll be happy if 14 year old queer girls will watch it and find some representation and be happy. But sad that some adult straight men will be drooling over underage girls with panty shots everywhere and having their clothes ripped off like no problem. Honestly I think it's not that bad of a show in itself, it just has some bad stuff in it that I would rather not were there. Anyway, unrelated to this topic, I found this site that lists any instance of rape in various kind of media, here is the anime section. Thought you might find it interesting and might help with the list. I feel at least better if I know what I'm getting into. http://isthererapeinit.tumblr.com/post/115204033364/anime-with-non-consensual-sexual-content |
witchwingsApr 5, 2015 7:52 PM
Fate/Stay Light - rape? The title may be Stay Night, need clarification Yeah ... I find it hard to take that list seriously when they can't take five seconds to google the correct name for a series. In the other hand in the video game section: Winter Voices - graphic descriptions of rape, massive rape apology. Developer has expressed empathy with the rapist. what the fucking fuck edit: More on that: http://ratpocalypse.tumblr.com/post/115199630660/video-games-with-non-consensual-sexual-content |
EarwenApr 6, 2015 8:22 AM
| From the developer: It's not the role of a game/art to take position There must be enough artists rolling in their graves right now to shift the Earth off its axis, lol. Art is absolutely about raising questions. If one is not "taking a position" it's usually from cowardice, ignorance, lack of introspection, or approval of the status quo, i.e. society's stagnation. This is a favorite defense for gamers, who go on about the purity of art while at the same time removing its teeth by saying it should have nothing to say about anything- unless it's that vaunted "realism." I have yet to see a "realistic" game other than simulators. Precisely because realism requires an intimate understanding of sociology, psychology, etc., which the developer is lacking. The right "attitude" or dress can save one from rape? Please. Also lmao that he thought feminism didn't exist during the Industrial Revolution. I assumed his game took place in antiquity, since he kept saying "there was no feminism, there was no feminism." Then I read the premise of the game. He's talking about the 19th century! When proto-feminism was born! It wasn't called by the name "feminism," but there were definitely women resisting the status quo and revolting, etc. They're not even hard to find. French women participated in the French Revolution! His "research"- schooling, more likely, obviously didn't include many women, which is not surprising and one of the problems feminists are always pointing out. We need to study groundbreaking women in history too, not just "great men" as written by men. So that we don't have people thinking women were just twiddling their thumbs or falling victim through history. |
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