Re:ZERO -Starting Life in Another World- (light novel)
| Bit of a long post, so feel free to ignore if it's not your thing. I watched Re:Zero for the first time after the second season finished airing. I think it is a pretty good show, and its strengths lie in building intrigue, amping up tension and resolving extremely dire situations in an epic and satisfying way over the course of an arc. Onto my issue with it. The world of Re:Zero invokes a sense of suspense and is completely shrouded in mystery. The Witch Cult, which serves as the primary antagonist faction, has been feuding with the MC ever since the beginning. The conflict is bloody, violent and disturbing to watch, and it adds to the show immensely. However, I feel like as a viewer, I cannot find myself immersed in a conflict where I have little to no idea about what motivates the antagonists. Does this mean I want answers right away? Of course not. However, Re:Zero has been serializing for years now, and the fact that LN readers still have no idea what exactly the nature of the Witch cult is, kinda bugs me. They plan and execute attacks (apparently) to capture Emilia for vague reasons. On asking a few LN readers, I was told that they just follow Gospels and do, and I quote, 'cray cray stuff, so don't bother thinking too much about it.' It's just that all these moving parts and complexities about the Witch Cult, the Sin Archbishops, their authorities, how and why their abilities work the way they do, their Gospels and obsession with the Witches, which ALSO reminds me of the Witches and their mysteries- all this enforces a feeling of wasted potential in storytelling. I can't shake the feeling that if we had some semblance of context for the Witch Cult's clear motivations, I'd be a lot more interested in this conflict. I still enjoy the show for its thrills and desperate situations, but I feel like as a world, and as a story, it has a lot more to offer than it currently is. I can understand arguments such as long term storytelling and slow burning reveals, but I believe that conflicts in any story suffer when you have a side full of vile characters acting for unknown reasons for MULTIPLE story arcs. tl;dr, I like the show, but the Witch Cult's ambiguity and vague nature takes me out of the conflict. The fact that I know little to nothing about the antagonists I've been watching for 3 seasons now bugs me a bit. I feel like there's a limit to shrouding your antagonists in mystery, but Re:Zero doesn't seem to mind keeping them as they are. Does anyone else feel the same way? |
| I get your criticism, but I can't say I agree. We really don't know a lot about the the witch cults structure and goals, but I believe that the Author simply withholds that for later. Re:Zeros mystery is like it's second most important aspect after it's characters and crafting theories with the limited stuff we know is part of the fun for the fandom. Every time new crucial information is revealed, there are posts on new theories and how the new information fits into existing ones, which I think is great. |
PyGno_ said: I get your criticism, but I can't say I agree. We really don't know a lot about the the witch cults structure and goals, but I believe that the Author simply withholds that for later. Re:Zeros mystery is like it's second most important aspect after it's characters and crafting theories with the limited stuff we know is part of the fun for the fandom. Every time new crucial information is revealed, there are posts on new theories and how the new information fits into existing ones, which I think is great. I definitely agree with the mysteries taking a back seat for the characters. A lot of people love Re:Zero for Subaru, his struggles and him striving to become a better person. My criticism in particular is strictly for the lack of answers about the cult; I just think context would make the story even better. |
Gavinmercer said: I think if the writer took your approach it would seriously damage the series. Great fiction often thrives on mystery and ambiguity, sometimes right up to the final chapter. "Show don't tell" is usually thought good practice, it's more fun when you're looking for clues and trying to figure it out for yourself. In any case, witch cults are notoriously secretive, so it is only fitting to keep it like that. I disagree. Currently, Re:Zero follows a format of storytelling where mysterious characters are introduced, we fight them, and we move on with minimal answers about their motives and purpose. The audience is expected to be high off of Subaru's victory despite all odds and is expected to not question much, simply moving onto the next arc. My criticism isn't directed at the show's focus on building mysteries and not resolving them. I'm not saying I don't like long term storytelling. I just happen to think that a story with such heavy focus on conflict between two groups should balance the characters' motives better to create a more compelling narrative. I love stories that 'show not tell', but Re:Zero does it to an extent where there's not much room to piece something together or make theories with the minimal tidbits we have. Again, I do like the show as it is. I just think the conflict can be more compelling with adequate info about the Cult's motivation, especially when it forms such a major portion of the story. |
| "Does anyone else feel the same way?" Not really. The mystery of the Witch Cult is intriguing, and it kind of reminds me of the WG in One Piece. Both are organizations that act as an overarching antagonist, but many things are still unknown about them, this long in the series. I do think the members of the Witch Cult should have been built better. I don't really care about any of them aside from Regulus (and that's cause he is funny), and conflicts aren't really compelling when I don't have an interest in both sides of the conflict. |
CielordOct 26, 5:00 PM
| spiritual successor of lord rothchild. |
| Each character's objective became clear at the right moment. Petelgeuse wanted to resurrect Satella through Emilia's body, which is supposedly the main goal of the Witch's Cult. Roswaal aims to kill the dragon and bring Echidna back to life. These were the two main antagonists in the last seasons. Now, if you're looking for full details on the rest of the cult, which has barely been introduced, then you're asking for poor, expository writing. |
| its all endgame stuff what do you mean you wanna see who's the one pulling the strings |
| You are amazing 『Natsuki Subaru』 |
MaouHero said: Each character's objective became clear at the right moment. Petelgeuse wanted to resurrect Satella through Emilia's body, which is supposedly the main goal of the Witch's Cult. Roswaal aims to kill the dragon and bring Echidna back to life. These were the two main antagonists in the last seasons. Now, if you're looking for full details on the rest of the cult, which has barely been introduced, then you're asking for poor, expository writing. I get the point you're trying to make, and I'm not expecting them to drop the entire lore in an expository and tactless way, but the current format really makes the show come off as a B Horror movie. I wouldn't like it nearly as much without the focus on Subaru's development as a character. Let me explain. Betelgeuse kept murdering the protagonist in grotesque ways throughout most of their conflict. A single line of context 'he's trying to resurrect Satella', adds little to nothing to the complexity as the audience is not expected to care about it. Then the question of WHY he's trying to resurrect Satella arises, which is answered by a vague 'he's following a fake gospel', and that is the end of Betelgeuse's motivation as a character. I'm not expressly calling this bad. I simply see wasted potential there, as a conflict. |
| From the Witch Cult, you saw only Betelgeuse as an antagonist. The others barely have much screentime till now. And what are your doubts regarding him? I'll request to ask in a more direct and precise manner. @Daddi4900 already has given enough hints, so ask only direct questions taking those things into account. |
| "All truth is meaningless. In the end, 'meaning' comes from the mind of each individual human. Even when there is a single truth, it can mean different things to different individuals. The truth has no meaning in itself!" - Erika Furudo |
Laplace_kun said: From the Witch Cult, you saw only Betelgeuse as an antagonist. The others barely have much screentime till now. And what are your doubts regarding him? I'll request to ask in a more direct and precise manner. @Daddi4900 already has given enough hints, so ask only direct questions taking those things into account. I don't really have any doubts, this wasn't meant to be a Q&A thread. I'm merely saying I'd be better interested in the conflict if they gave some actual exposition to characters like Betelgeuse instead of glossing over their motivations. As I stated before, all we know about this antagonist is that he's trying to resurrect a witch and he's following a fake gospel. That's it. The prequel episode with Betelgeuse does add some context, but still nothing involving his current motivations. |
Reply to certifiedbinger
Laplace_kun said:
From the Witch Cult, you saw only Betelgeuse as an antagonist. The others barely have much screentime till now. And what are your doubts regarding him?
I'll request to ask in a more direct and precise manner. @Daddi4900 already has given enough hints, so ask only direct questions taking those things into account.
From the Witch Cult, you saw only Betelgeuse as an antagonist. The others barely have much screentime till now. And what are your doubts regarding him?
I'll request to ask in a more direct and precise manner. @Daddi4900 already has given enough hints, so ask only direct questions taking those things into account.
I don't really have any doubts, this wasn't meant to be a Q&A thread.
I'm merely saying I'd be better interested in the conflict if they gave some actual exposition to characters like Betelgeuse instead of glossing over their motivations.
As I stated before, all we know about this antagonist is that he's trying to resurrect a witch and he's following a fake gospel. That's it.
The prequel episode with Betelgeuse does add some context, but still nothing involving his current motivations.
| @certifiedbinger certifiedbinger said: That's a red flag, but I'll still try to indulge in the shortest way possible..I don't really have any doubts Geuse, once respected Flugel and Satella to the point he created a moderate version of the witch cult. Currently corrupted by the sloth witch factor (because he is implied to be unsuitable for it, being extremely active) and gaslit by Pandora who likely distributes the Gospels (walmart versions of Echidna's Tome), he wants to use Emilia likely as a proper candidate to aid with Satella's unsealing. |
| "All truth is meaningless. In the end, 'meaning' comes from the mind of each individual human. Even when there is a single truth, it can mean different things to different individuals. The truth has no meaning in itself!" - Erika Furudo |
| @FutoiOtaku Well the main problems regarding the adaptation is curious cut of content that makes theorycrafting a lot more easy. I mean its nice that they adapt parts like Geuse being Beako's tutor in the past, but then they cut things like Satella having a split personality. The arc after current one will give some answers, but with some more questions as a bonus... I really wish someone actually made a post here with all big questions so far in this series, instead of the alternate cringe glazing and hate-baiting. Helps both anime-onlies and source readers. If you spend more than 5 years reading something with big lore, even you need revision to properly explain stuff to other people. |
| "All truth is meaningless. In the end, 'meaning' comes from the mind of each individual human. Even when there is a single truth, it can mean different things to different individuals. The truth has no meaning in itself!" - Erika Furudo |
Laplace_kun said: @certifiedbinger certifiedbinger said: That's a red flag, but I'll still try to indulge in the shortest way possible..I don't really have any doubts Geuse, once respected Flugel and Satella to the point he created a moderate version of the witch cult. Currently corrupted by the sloth witch factor (because he is implied to be unsuitable for it, being extremely active) and gaslit by Pandora who likely distributes the Gospels (walmart versions of Echidna's Tome), he wants to use Emilia likely as a proper candidate to aid with Satella's unsealing. I see, that does put things into perspective nicely. Pandora is the blue eyed and white haired girl from the flashbacks, right? So I'm assuming the prevalent theory is that she's pulling all the strings and the Cult follows her orders. |
Ronninn said: your whole existence frustrates me Well, I did ask people who couldn't read to ignore the post, but you do you ig. |
| @certifiedbinger Yes, the Witch of Vainglory. And regarding her motivation.. we mostly know for now she wanted to open that seal in the Ellior Forest. When somebody like Regulus bows to her, you'd think she lies in an high standing among them. All her actions so far shown in the anime involve distortion of human ideals, goals and history itself. It's not totally clear if she directly gives orders because the Gospels do the job nicely. Geuse was acquainted with Echidna as Beatrice's tutor of sorts. Echidna created the Tome of Wisdom. It possessed one of the greatest algorithms used to figure out the future using past events. Considering that copies of the original Tome would be considered valuable to any person with big goals, the distorted version would be a gem for Betelgeuse the Sin archbishop. Theory time (with anime knowledge only): Now we know, Flugel entrusted the factor to Geuse; if we consider the value of the tome... did Echidna create the Tome as a guiding book for all the witches overwhelmed by their factors? Was she too late as all but one of them died? |
Laplace_kunOct 27, 2:39 AM
| "All truth is meaningless. In the end, 'meaning' comes from the mind of each individual human. Even when there is a single truth, it can mean different things to different individuals. The truth has no meaning in itself!" - Erika Furudo |
| This is a big one so better prepare for it: Although everything is subjective of course, I personally don't think one necessarily needs to know the motivations of the antagonists to be immersed in the conflict. The conflict is fueled by the protagonists reaction and reason for fighting against these antagonists. In Re:Zero's case, the Archbishops serve as the symbol of true, iredeemable evil in the world. They're not like the Witches, who were explicitly shown to neither be good nor evil. The Archbishops are not morally gray; you are not supposed to understand or side with them. However, the lack of presence of a morally gray antagonist does not constitute a bad story or conflict. An engaging conflict exists, even in just a strictly good versus evil sense, which is what this arc is all about: the good guys you care about fight against the bad guys that have terrorized and are terrorizing the said good guys you care about. The Archbishops are made and written to be purely morally black, through and through. And what makes the conflict alive is how the protagonists and the characters we care about have a reason to fight against them that's personally-tied and beyond just the politically correct answer. We see this most prominently in Subaru and the entire Crusch faction and their vendetta against Gluttony, specifically Lye, but also to a lesser extent Emilia with Regulus. Though she does not clearly remember him, we as a viewer are well aware of his involvement in her past. Moving beyond just the Archbishops and diving into the masked witch cultists we see in the latest episode, those two will be the central foil of two important conflicts that will drive both to further development for the arcs to come. I'm referring to the two family dramas that are put in full spotlight in this arc and which will be of much relevance not just in this arc but in the arcs going forward. That is, the Astrea family drama and Garfiel's family situation. The conflict of this arc is ultimately two-fold: (1) the previously built-up and alluded conflicts with Greed and Gluttony; and (2) introducing the rest of the Archbishops (Roy, Capella, and Sirius) who will be a primary motivation of some of the cast and who will play a deeper role in the arcs to follow. Other than that, the arc serves three important purposes: (1) To showcase the new and improved Emilia camp that now finally has some semblance of unity of goal after their extensive development from Season 2, (2) to highlight the growth and development of Subaru as a person, character, and as a hero figure because at the end of the day, Re:Zero is one big anti-fatalism, cyclical hero's journey narrative, and finally (3) to introduce major plot points that will drive forward the character arcs of certain individuals like Garfiel and the members of the Astrea family. Although much of my explanation is really explaining why the motivational factors of antagonists aren't necessary as long as the protagonists and the viewers have reasons to oppose them, I'll try to also give more detail into the cult itself. Basically, the Witch Cult is not an organized entity. Every member, from the Archbishops to their foot soldiers, follow the gospel that tells them of the path towards their desired future, and they will do and commit any atrocity just to achieve their desires. All the Archbishops have their own individual goals which they try to accomplish by themselves most of the time. It's only occasionally, when their gospel's instructions line up like what is happening here, that they would reluctantly work together. Prior to this arc, we as viewers are supposed to only know two important info about them: (1) that they are trying to resurrect the Witch of Envy, and (2) that they are not wholly unified, as shown with Petelgeuse and Regulus during season 2. The first point is dispelled once we see that the rest of the Archbishops don't really seem to care or even talk about the Witch of Envy. Even Sirius is shown to actually hate and hold a grudge against her instead of revering her. Also, the Archbishops don't really seem to get along with one another. In this case, we are supposed to question their goals, but simply because we do not get answers for that doesn't mean the conflict is any less engaging. Apart from the mystery, we aren't really made to care about the Archbishops beyond just purely hating them because of what they have done to the cast. The lack of context for their motivations doesn't make them any less compelling as villains nor does it take away from the conflict, because that's not the point. The point is that they're all a bunch of insane, heinous motherfuckers, and they all do their due diligence in accomplishing that. Maybe a comparison to a similar villain group would be apt to further explore this point. In particular, I like to compare the Witch Cult to the Phantom Troupe from Hunter X Hunter. In both groups, we aren't really aware of their ultimate goals or why they do the horrible things they do other than some surface-level or ambiguous reasons. Though they do differ in some aspects like how the members of the Phantom Troupe share a bond with each other while the Archbishops do not. But in the end, even without context for their underlying motivations, both groups serve and deliver their purpose in the conflicts of their respective stories: the Phantom Troupe is the driving force for Kurapika's character while the Witch Cult is the driving force for Subaru's vow of revenge for Rem and for side characters like the Crusch camp, and many others in the future. |
GilgameshuuOct 27, 3:21 AM
* |
Reply to certifiedbinger
MaouHero said:
Each character's objective became clear at the right moment. Petelgeuse wanted to resurrect Satella through Emilia's body, which is supposedly the main goal of the Witch's Cult. Roswaal aims to kill the dragon and bring Echidna back to life. These were the two main antagonists in the last seasons. Now, if you're looking for full details on the rest of the cult, which has barely been introduced, then you're asking for poor, expository writing.
Each character's objective became clear at the right moment. Petelgeuse wanted to resurrect Satella through Emilia's body, which is supposedly the main goal of the Witch's Cult. Roswaal aims to kill the dragon and bring Echidna back to life. These were the two main antagonists in the last seasons. Now, if you're looking for full details on the rest of the cult, which has barely been introduced, then you're asking for poor, expository writing.
I get the point you're trying to make, and I'm not expecting them to drop the entire lore in an expository and tactless way, but the current format really makes the show come off as a B Horror movie. I wouldn't like it nearly as much without the focus on Subaru's development as a character.
Let me explain. Betelgeuse kept murdering the protagonist in grotesque ways throughout most of their conflict. A single line of context 'he's trying to resurrect Satella', adds little to nothing to the complexity as the audience is not expected to care about it. Then the question of WHY he's trying to resurrect Satella arises, which is answered by a vague 'he's following a fake gospel', and that is the end of Betelgeuse's motivation as a character.
I'm not expressly calling this bad. I simply see wasted potential there, as a conflict.
| @certifiedbinger To begin with, Petelgeuse’s motivation to resurrect Satella stems from his love for her. He belongs to a cult that supposedly worships her. It’s like questioning why someone believes in God. The main point wasn’t his 'fight' with Petelgeuse, as in some battle shounen, but rather saving Emilia. Moreover, contrary to what you’ve claimed, Petelgeuse didn’t kill Subaru even once. This matters because it demonstrates that it was never about a fight or rivalry with Petelgeuse; hence, he ultimately feels sympathy for him. Petelgeuse’s role and development are explored over time in a much more engaging way than if a forced flashback had been used in the previous arc to create a sense of empathy. |
MaouHeroOct 27, 3:59 AM
kuma-dono said: If AoT revealed everything the way you want it to be then the show wouldn't be anywhere near as good. For this show it wouldn't hurt to the same degree, but the mystery of it is interesting and the archbishops being unknowns makes them a lot more intimidating. I'm quoting my original post here. "I can understand arguments such as long term storytelling and slow burning reveals, but I believe that conflicts in any story suffer when you have a side full of vile characters acting for unknown reasons for MULTIPLE story arcs." You're comparing apples and oranges there. My criticism is directed solely towards this show's handling of its mystery element, not the mystery genre as a whole. |
Confused_100 said: kuma-dono said: If AoT revealed everything the way you want it to be then the show wouldn't be anywhere near as good. For this show it wouldn't hurt to the same degree, but the mystery of it is interesting and the archbishops being unknowns makes them a lot more intimidating. I think that’s the problem with these kinds of criticisms is that you can apply it to every series that is trying to be mysterious in any way. I think the advantage that AoT had is that it only took 3 seasons for alot mystery to be revealed. I think it would hurt the series as it would make it more predictable. Unlike AoT which had alot of grey areas, Re zero doesn’t have it that much. You can't apply them everywhere though. Re:Zero is doing something completely unique with the way it handles its world building and mystery. I haven't ever seen any series go on for this long (talking about the source material here) with so much ambiguity about its setting, and still create such a gripping narrative. There are two types of reception towards such a move. 1. People are either going to keep getting more intrigued, waiting for the grand reveal that puts the puzzle pieces together and blows their minds. 2. Feel slightly disconnected from the narrative since story arcs start and resolve without touching much upon the things that would usually be addressed in other stories. But they still have fun with it. I simply happen to be the latter, and wanted to see if some other viewers felt that way. A few do, but as expected, most don't. I'm glad I made this thread though, I got to take in a lot of different perspectives. |
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