Is the whole timeline predetermined?

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Reply to raffyzita

The plot was forced to be predetermined in order to shoehorn the "slave to freedom" pretentious writing. That's one of the many reasons this ending is divisive. It isn't organic. I find it hard to believe that someone given the knowledge and power to change the past, future and people's minds would choose this path.
All of this just to satisfy a 2000 year old loli's voyeuristic tendencies certainly didn't help.

@raffyzita I don't understand how it can be predetermined though because he says he made the choice to make the titan eat his mom instead of bertolt because he wasn't supposed to die yet. So clearly he can change things that would cause the whole timeline to change. Maybe I am being stupid though idk.

Nov 9, 2023 1:13 AM

#6

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adn10 said:
@raffyzita I don't understand how it can be predetermined though because he says he made the choice to make the titan eat his mom instead of bertolt because he wasn't supposed to die yet. So clearly he can change things that would cause the whole timeline to change. Maybe I am being stupid though idk.

If he knows... he certainly can change it having the powers? But did he have the powers? Ofcourse!! he was the most powerful thing in that universe....
That's why the ending was not satisfactory for a lot of people.

Nov 9, 2023 1:19 AM

#7

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adn10 said:
[spoiler]Why can Eren not change anything? Is the whole thing already predetermined and he literally has no free will to change anything? or is it because he wants to keep moving forward to break the curse of Ymir and the only way to do that is to follow the future he sees?

Isn't it too big a sacrifice what Ymir's freedom requires? It certainly would have had other way to free Ymir.
He had to make a decision... I have seen him make a lot of them like with commanding his father to eat the other Titan family and like saving Bertold but getting his mum eaten...
He certainly changed a lot things, couldn't he have done something to save more part of the humanity and save him and his comrades like Hange, Sasha, Erwin too?? The power required to do that was in his hand always.

Nov 9, 2023 2:00 AM

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Reply to Madhav001

adn10 said:
[spoiler]Why can Eren not change anything? Is the whole thing already predetermined and he literally has no free will to change anything? or is it because he wants to keep moving forward to break the curse of Ymir and the only way to do that is to follow the future he sees?

Isn't it too big a sacrifice what Ymir's freedom requires? It certainly would have had other way to free Ymir.
He had to make a decision... I have seen him make a lot of them like with commanding his father to eat the other Titan family and like saving Bertold but getting his mum eaten...
He certainly changed a lot things, couldn't he have done something to save more part of the humanity and save him and his comrades like Hange, Sasha, Erwin too?? The power required to do that was in his hand always.

@Madhav001 well the only thing that makes sense is that he had to go through with what he saw or the curse of Ymir would not break. Ymir needed to see Mikasa kill Eren and he could not get to that point if those people that you mentioned had survived.

I think the whole predetermined thing started when Eren manipulated Grisha into eating the royal family. but if it is predetermined there are MANY plot holes.

with all that said my guess is that none of it is predetermined and the flaw in this show is the paradox of eren maipulating grisha into getting him the attack titan.

Nov 9, 2023 2:07 AM

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adn10 said:
@Madhav001 well the only thing that makes sense is that he had to go through with what he saw or the curse of Ymir would not break. Ymir needed to see Mikasa kill Eren and he could not get to that point if those people that you mentioned had survived.

I think the whole predetermined thing started when Eren manipulated Grisha into eating the royal family. but if it is predetermined there are MANY plot holes.

with all that said my guess is that none of it is predetermined and the flaw in this show is the paradox of eren maipulating grisha into getting him the attack titan.

That's what I am saying...
Too big a sacrifice for something that could be ended on its own.....(don't let any Titan eat any of the main 9 titans)
If after everything, this humongous sacrifice in the only possible way to free her... Better not free her then and save 80% of humanity + his close ones(Eren's mum, Sasha, Hange, Erwin,etc) and most importantly himself and his humanity within.....
The moment Eren manipulated his father or even before... made bertold live. The paradox was created which could possibly save everything that went wrong.

Nov 9, 2023 2:20 AM

#10

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@madhav001 you’re forgetting that with the curse of Ymir the titan shifters have a short lifespan. Armin, one of the people Eren would die for, would have a shortened lifespan and Eren would die regardless in a couple years so he probably thinks it is what he should do to save his friend (connie’s mom too cherry on top). Also Eren himself said he wanted to see the whole world as a blank slate and he explained in the last episode to Armin that he wanted to see that sight. As much as he felt sorry for the people. That is just something he has ALWAYS wanted. So for him it was probably fair that if all those people die, he should die too. Also to try to end the war between titans incase the titans fall into the wrong hands at some point.

kotoamatsukami00Nov 9, 2023 2:24 AM

Nov 9, 2023 2:46 AM

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@madhav001 you’re forgetting that with the curse of Ymir the titan shifters have a short lifespan. Armin, one of the people Eren would die for, would have a shortened lifespan and Eren would die regardless in a couple years so he probably thinks it is what he should do to save his friend (connie’s mom too cherry on top). Also Eren himself said he wanted to see the whole world as a blank slate and he explained in the last episode to Armin that he wanted to see that sight. As much as he felt sorry for the people. That is just something he has ALWAYS wanted. So for him it was probably fair that if all those people die, he should die too. Also to try to end the war between titans incase the titans fall into the wrong hands at some point.

@adn10 Eren has a weird bucket list 🤣

Nov 9, 2023 2:58 AM

#12

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It's kind of a combination of both.

Like viscous cycle. One resulting in the second thing and the second thing resulting in the first thing.

Eren's actions were predetermined. He exists in a fixed time loop of sorts where he can only take one course of action.

But that time loop exists in the first place because of Eren's will to keep moving forward.
Eren does what he did in his future memories because he believes that is the only way to get the result that he needs.

Ultimately creating a fixed loop.

Nov 9, 2023 3:01 AM

#13

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@Madhav001 well the only thing that makes sense is that he had to go through with what he saw or the curse of Ymir would not break. Ymir needed to see Mikasa kill Eren and he could not get to that point if those people that you mentioned had survived.

I think the whole predetermined thing started when Eren manipulated Grisha into eating the royal family. but if it is predetermined there are MANY plot holes.

with all that said my guess is that none of it is predetermined and the flaw in this show is the paradox of eren maipulating grisha into getting him the attack titan.

@adn10 Yeah that the thing with this story, its difficult to pinpoint anything since the mechanism of the paths is so vague. If the future can be changed, then the argument for slave to freedom is weak.
If the future cant be changed, then why was Eren able and have to manipulate his father and let his mom be eaten. Also this makes whole story pointless since the sense of agency is removed.P

Nov 9, 2023 3:06 AM

#14

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@Madhav001 well the only thing that makes sense is that he had to go through with what he saw or the curse of Ymir would not break. Ymir needed to see Mikasa kill Eren and he could not get to that point if those people that you mentioned had survived.

I think the whole predetermined thing started when Eren manipulated Grisha into eating the royal family. but if it is predetermined there are MANY plot holes.

with all that said my guess is that none of it is predetermined and the flaw in this show is the paradox of eren maipulating grisha into getting him the attack titan.

@adn10 Your last paragraph is what Predetermined means in this case.

Predetermined doesn't mean it was his destiny decided by some God.

The moment Eren accessed the Founding Titan events became predetermined.
The past and future became fixed.

Because he couldn't have accessed the Founding Titan if Grisha hadn't taken it from the Reiss Family.
And Grisha wouldn't have taken it from the Reiss Family if Eren hadn't accessed the Founding Titan in the Future.

Nov 9, 2023 3:10 AM

#15

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@raffyzita I don't understand how it can be predetermined though because he says he made the choice to make the titan eat his mom instead of bertolt because he wasn't supposed to die yet. So clearly he can change things that would cause the whole timeline to change. Maybe I am being stupid though idk.

@adn10 yes he made a choice. But he made a choice that had already been made.

Because Bertholdt did survive then and Carla did get eaten.

Eren has the illusion of choice. In the end he can only choose the events as they happened. Because they have already happened.

It's like a Grandfather Paradox

Nov 9, 2023 3:10 AM

#16

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@raffyzita agreed, this story is obviously not perfect and there is a major flaw somewhere, but I still fuckin love it regardless. you can’t expect the writer to never fuck up somewhere, gotta cut him some slack although it is a big fuck up.

Nov 9, 2023 3:17 AM

#17

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@fuhrer_wrath do you think a paradox is good? at the end of the day it is just a show and it’s just for entertainment, but idk just doesn’t sit right with me, who am i to say anything though.

Nov 9, 2023 4:03 AM

#18

Miry4316

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adn10 said:
@raffyzita I don't understand how it can be predetermined though because he says he made the choice to make the titan eat his mom instead of bertolt because he wasn't supposed to die yet. So clearly he can change things that would cause the whole timeline to change. Maybe I am being stupid though idk.

the fact that Eren made that choice is like the whole timeline "already happened". Then Eren "from the future" influenced Eren's choices in the past to make the future happen

Nov 9, 2023 4:27 AM

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adn10 said:
@madhav001 you’re forgetting that with the curse of Ymir the titan shifters have a short lifespan. Armin, one of the people Eren would die for, would have a shortened lifespan and Eren would die regardless in a couple years so he probably thinks it is what he should do to save his friend (connie’s mom too cherry on top). Also Eren himself said he wanted to see the whole world as a blank slate and he explained in the last episode to Armin that he wanted to see that sight. As much as he felt sorry for the people. That is just something he has ALWAYS wanted. So for him it was probably fair that if all those people die, he should die too. Also to try to end the war between titans incase the titans fall into the wrong hands at some point.

Naah I am not forgetting about the 30 year lifespan.... that's why they should not let anyone eat the Titan shifters till they die and then eventually the curse would be broken....
Sacrifice of 5-6 people would mean to save Everyone and everything even from the past.....Also Eren will be able to live with all his friends until they die together. Eren would surely have chosen that peace unlike the peace which comes from destruction of everything and from nothingness and silence.

About the thing that he wanted to see,
That's what the character assassination is about, he would never want so many people to die. Just for what? To see the sight? Does this sound like Eren to you? Saying I am fool, I don't want Mikasa to think anybody else other than me, Are these lines really what Eren would say?

Nov 9, 2023 4:47 AM

#20

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@madhav001 first off, it is a 13 year lifespan. when you die with titan powers it just recycles into another person. Yes that sounds like Eren to me go rewatch the show, season 2 he breaks down when he says he’s useless like always. he has always been like that. i know he’s different now. shit happens when you bottle up emotions and yea it’s pathetic, but he is human at the end of the day. he’s also talking to his best friend since he was a kid who he is done hiding his emotions from. i mean you don’t have to like it, you can have your own opinion. that’s not what this topic is about anyway. Also he has always wanted to just destroy his enemies no matter what it takes so i don’t get how that is an assassination of character to you. and obviously it is not just to see the sight, that would be beyond stupid.

kotoamatsukami00Nov 9, 2023 4:52 AM

Nov 9, 2023 4:52 AM

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adn10 said:
@madhav001 first off, it is a 13 year lifespan. when you die with titan powers it just recycles into another person. Yes that sounds like Eren to me go rewatch the show, season 2 he breaks down when he says he’s useless like always. he has always been like that. i know he’s different now. shit happens when you bottle up emotions and yea it’s pathetic, but he is human at the end of the day. he’s also talking to his best friend since he was a kid who he is done hiding his emotions from. i mean you don’t have to like it, you can have your own opinion. that’s not what this topic is about anyway. Also he has always wanted to just destroy his enemies no matter what it takes so i don’t get how that is an assassination of character to you. and obviously it is not just to see the sight, that would be beyond stupid.

Naah you need to watch it again then, the powers recycle to an unborn baby not any person.

And he is being useful this way? woah

And saying the things he said while talking to Armin was surely very out of character as many people noticed it while the manga chapter came out.

Nov 9, 2023 4:56 AM

#22

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@madhav001 do you see what your typing? just take a second to think lmfao. manga is different we talkin about the anime.

Nov 9, 2023 5:04 AM

#23

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adn10 said:
@madhav001 do you see what your typing? just take a second to think lmfao. manga is different we talkin about the anime.

You seem to be a keyboard warrior.
Well it's the other way round since you yourself dont know the Titan power transfer rule.
So, do you read what you type?

Well Nothing will come of this so I shall take my leave and I suggest you to watch the show again at a slower pace to understand the established ruled and how things are supposed to happen.

Good luck with that.

Nov 9, 2023 5:10 AM

#24

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@madhav001 why you getting so defensive😂
you make no sense then call me a keyboard warrior lmfao. you say that the curse of ymir can be broken by not eating titan shifters til they die. then you say it gets passed on to an unborn baby. like what are you saying bro. the curse of ymir doesn’t break then. contradicting yourself. take your own advice. you won’t respond either cause you know you’re lost.

kotoamatsukami00Nov 9, 2023 5:19 AM

Nov 9, 2023 5:37 AM

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@fuhrer_wrath do you think a paradox is good? at the end of the day it is just a show and it’s just for entertainment, but idk just doesn’t sit right with me, who am i to say anything though.

@adn10 Good in what sense? In terms of story? Depends on the story.

I think it works for a show like AoT because the mechanics of the Time Travel and the Paradox are introduced within the power system of the show.(The Paths and Attack Titan Future memories)

Similarly the Paradox had already been used before the ending to explain things like why Grisha did what he did.

The Time Loop/Paradox is a natural part of the narrative that explains things like Eren's decisions post Time Skip, Grisha's decision and Ymir giving Eren the power of the Founding Titan.

It also enriches the show thematically in my opinion. The fact that the one character who tried the most for freedom was the least free makes his character that much more Ironic and tragic.

Now is the Paradox absolutely necessary to the story? No.

But does it hurt the story or narrative oe doesn't fit with it? In my opinion no.

Nov 9, 2023 5:44 AM

#26

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@fuhrer_wrath thank you, good insight.

Nov 9, 2023 5:50 AM

#27

CreepHazard

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Adnash said:
@raffyzita The thing is, Eren was indeed "slave to freedom", but also dependant on Ymir and her will. All he did was a mix of his own nature (bratty, impulsive and emotionally unstable with anger issues) and what he wanted to achieve limited by Ymir's will.

As much as convoluted it might look like at first, it's that much complex. The tragedy of this situation is that two people unfitting to receive godlike powers not only came into their possession, but happened to meet with each other and share common goal. Ymir and Eren had clearly mental problems (even though they were different), that's why their goal looked as it looked like, even though there could be many other possibilities.

Is it pretentious? I don't think so. It kinda fits many other shounens' pivotal themes. It was just presented in overly complicated manner, making something rather simple and basic even look unnecessarily convoluted at a first glance. If we are to refer to this particular side of the plot, then aye, I can agree that at least in this place it can be called as pretentious. Even going by aforementioned standards of the pivotal themes of shounen anime.

raffyzita said:
All of this just to satisfy a 2000 year old loli's voyeuristic tendencies certainly didn't help.

Aye, that's something many people seem to forget about. It's not like I want to make Eren look less negative as a character, because he was a genocidal bastard. However, it's not like Ymir was any better. She allowed the Rumbling to happen, she gave permission to use the Founding Titan's power in such way. She was basically pulling the strings and having popcorn while watching the world getting doomed, only to go through her Stockholm syndrome-like trauma and toxic love. And to smile while seeing Mikasa achieving what she had failed to achieve, smiling as if 80% of humanity and wrecked up world was not that big of a deal price for her self-organized therapy.

TL;DR "Slippin Jimmy with a law degree is like a Chimp with a machine gun"

Nov 9, 2023 5:51 AM

#28

CreepHazard

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Well no, it all happens simultaneously in Eren's POV. Nothing is predetermined but everything is

Nov 9, 2023 5:53 AM

#29

deg

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the paths is deterministic imo so all eldians are like a slave of destiny made by ymir

but ymir found someone who is not and that is mikasa an ackerman that is not a slave to the will of king fritz and also have some obsessive love like her with her lover so she got a bingo card with mikasa which can have their own free will

i say attack on titan universe is a multiverse since we saw goth mikasa and nerd armin in the paths too anyway so beyond the paths controlled by ymir there is a multiverse imo

Nov 9, 2023 5:58 AM

#30

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@creephazard i see

kotoamatsukami00Nov 9, 2023 6:04 AM

Nov 9, 2023 2:57 PM

#31

matraph00

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I kind of think it was both. It seems like he knew all paths the future could take and decided he would take one. For this one path he chose, everything was predetermined but he chose to go on that path. I think that because of when he said he sent he sent the titan to his mom to save Bertholt because Bertholt had to live. He knew that for this future to happen, Bertholt had to live. So he chose to save Bertholt. He gets to choose. But then in the path there is no past, present or future. Everything happens at the same time so the future is already happening being Eren is choosing this future. Then after Eren died, the path might have disappeared so times would then flow normally with past, present and future not happening at the same time and Eren couldn’t say what would happen after he died because it was not all connected anymore since no path. The same kind of way **spoiler for Loki** Kang is killed and (I don’t know how they call it) the original timeline doesn’t exist anymore. It ends there and everything after that is undetermined

Nov 9, 2023 5:14 PM

#32

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raffyzita said:
The plot was forced to be predetermined in order to shoehorn the "slave to freedom" pretentious writing. That's one of the many reasons this ending is divisive. It isn't organic. I find it hard to believe that someone given the knowledge and power to change the past, future and people's minds would choose this path.
All of this just to satisfy a 2000 year old loli's voyeuristic tendencies certainly didn't help.

He doesn’t have omnipotent power to just “choose timelines”. The only power he has is that he can see the choices he will make in the future. The timeline is determined by him himself. That’s why he’s unable to change it, because whatever he chooses in the present already happened in the past from future eren’s pov. It isn’t like the universe or some godly force is puppeteering his body against his will. It’s just that whatever he chooses in the present is already what he chose from future eren pov. How the paradox came to be is the real question, you can say it was ymir but buy the definition of a paradox you can’t really explain how it came into existence

Nov 9, 2023 5:17 PM

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kotoamatsukami00 said:
@raffyzita I don't understand how it can be predetermined though because he says he made the choice to make the titan eat his mom instead of bertolt because he wasn't supposed to die yet. So clearly he can change things that would cause the whole timeline to change. Maybe I am being stupid though idk.

You’re right. It’s a time loop that eren traps himself in. A lot of people don’t get how the time travel thing works. Eren is not forced by the universe to follow some grand plan, he’s forced by his own choices. He’s literally a slave to his own choices aka a slave to freedom. This is because from the future erens pov, everything he does in the present is just the past. It’s already happened. What makes this “predetermined”, is that future eren basically gave present eren the answer key to the choices he will make. Even present eren trying to change the future is something that’s already happened and part of his story from future erens pov, he’s just fulfilling the choices he has ALWAYS made

Nov 9, 2023 5:33 PM

#34

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Reply to alexthehammer

kotoamatsukami00 said:
@raffyzita I don't understand how it can be predetermined though because he says he made the choice to make the titan eat his mom instead of bertolt because he wasn't supposed to die yet. So clearly he can change things that would cause the whole timeline to change. Maybe I am being stupid though idk.

You’re right. It’s a time loop that eren traps himself in. A lot of people don’t get how the time travel thing works. Eren is not forced by the universe to follow some grand plan, he’s forced by his own choices. He’s literally a slave to his own choices aka a slave to freedom. This is because from the future erens pov, everything he does in the present is just the past. It’s already happened. What makes this “predetermined”, is that future eren basically gave present eren the answer key to the choices he will make. Even present eren trying to change the future is something that’s already happened and part of his story from future erens pov, he’s just fulfilling the choices he has ALWAYS made

@alexthehammer so basically, future eren has already decided everything and he is the only one with the power to determine what happens. therefore current eren can not change anything and he is forced to do what eren would have always done. we don't know how future eren got there but he did end up getting there, some how some way, and from that point everything was decided. is that correct?

Nov 9, 2023 5:42 PM

#35

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Reply to Fuhrer_Wrath

@adn10 Good in what sense? In terms of story? Depends on the story.

I think it works for a show like AoT because the mechanics of the Time Travel and the Paradox are introduced within the power system of the show.(The Paths and Attack Titan Future memories)

Similarly the Paradox had already been used before the ending to explain things like why Grisha did what he did.

The Time Loop/Paradox is a natural part of the narrative that explains things like Eren's decisions post Time Skip, Grisha's decision and Ymir giving Eren the power of the Founding Titan.

It also enriches the show thematically in my opinion. The fact that the one character who tried the most for freedom was the least free makes his character that much more Ironic and tragic.

Now is the Paradox absolutely necessary to the story? No.

But does it hurt the story or narrative oe doesn't fit with it? In my opinion no.

@Fuhrer_Wrath I understand this take.
However in my opinion its so forced that its jarring. The fact that we the fans needed to have this conversation to try to make it make sense shows how poorly everything is written/communicated.
I disagree that it enriches it thematically, there is nothing profound in the "slave to freedom" statement to justify the added complexity (if you can even call it that due to how vague everything is).
I mean what do you get from that statement as an individual. There just nothing in it that's worth anything.

raffyzitaNov 9, 2023 5:53 PM

Nov 9, 2023 5:52 PM

#36

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@Fuhrer_Wrath I understand this take.
However in my opinion its so forced that its jarring. The fact that we the fans needed to have this conversation to try to make it make sense shows how poorly everything is written/communicated.
I disagree that it enriches it thematically, there is nothing profound in the "slave to freedom" statement to justify the added complexity (if you can even call it that due to how vague everything is).
I mean what do you get from that statement as an individual. There just nothing in it that's worth anything.

@raffyzita i agree that everything should have been explained better or in more detail, but him being a slave to freedom still stands because he cannot change the fact that he kills 80% of humanity even if he wanted to, no?

Nov 9, 2023 6:47 PM

#37

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kotoamatsukami00 said:
@alexthehammer so basically, future eren has already decided everything and he is the only one with the power to determine what happens. therefore current eren can not change anything and he is forced to do what eren would have always done. we don't know how future eren got there but he did end up getting there, some how some way, and from that point everything was decided. is that correct?

Sort of, it’s not that future eren decided this against present erens wishes, this is just like what eren himself does, always. The way I think about it is like your life up till now. From the moment you were born to you reading this, now imagine if you watch your life on repeat, over and over again. Things always will happen the exact same way right? They will never ever change because you yourself will make the same choices forever and ever, if everything happens the exact same way down to the last atom. It’s not that like you, looking back, influenced yourself in the past at every turn to get to where you are rn reading this comment, it’s just what your life is.

The twist with eren is that he knows what will happen in the future, so past him is aware of the actions of the future him, now we don’t know where the paradox started, by definition you can’t explain where a paradox begins but this is just his life. He’s trapped by his life but it’s not like future eren like purposely put him in some sort of cage where past him has to go through the motions

Nov 9, 2023 7:01 PM

#38

Merve2Love

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Reply to raffyzita

The plot was forced to be predetermined in order to shoehorn the "slave to freedom" pretentious writing. That's one of the many reasons this ending is divisive. It isn't organic. I find it hard to believe that someone given the knowledge and power to change the past, future and people's minds would choose this path.
All of this just to satisfy a 2000 year old loli's voyeuristic tendencies certainly didn't help.

@raffyzita

Get off your high horse^^
What do YOU know about plot, having watched 25 Anime in your Lifetime?

Also: He DID change stuff, if you remember :)
But some things are meant to be. You can't do anything about them, no matter what. THIS is what this whole slave to freedom thing was about. He couldn't change it, cause it was meant to be, regardless of what he did. If anything that's a pretty unique way to tackle the idea of something like "Fate"

Nov 9, 2023 7:21 PM

#39

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kotoamatsukami00 said:
@alexthehammer so basically, future eren has already decided everything and he is the only one with the power to determine what happens. therefore current eren can not change anything and he is forced to do what eren would have always done. we don't know how future eren got there but he did end up getting there, some how some way, and from that point everything was decided. is that correct?

Sort of, it’s not that future eren decided this against present erens wishes, this is just like what eren himself does, always. The way I think about it is like your life up till now. From the moment you were born to you reading this, now imagine if you watch your life on repeat, over and over again. Things always will happen the exact same way right? They will never ever change because you yourself will make the same choices forever and ever, if everything happens the exact same way down to the last atom. It’s not that like you, looking back, influenced yourself in the past at every turn to get to where you are rn reading this comment, it’s just what your life is.

The twist with eren is that he knows what will happen in the future, so past him is aware of the actions of the future him, now we don’t know where the paradox started, by definition you can’t explain where a paradox begins but this is just his life. He’s trapped by his life but it’s not like future eren like purposely put him in some sort of cage where past him has to go through the motions

@alexthehammer so its simply just a predetermined paradox and he was always gonna do certain things like him sending the titan to his mother, but he cannot change anything else because that isn't what actually happened in his life. He can only do what he was always going to do and keep moving forward with the paradox.

Nov 9, 2023 8:48 PM

#40

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Apr 2023

45

kotoamatsukami00 said:
@alexthehammer so its simply just a predetermined paradox and he was always gonna do certain things like him sending the titan to his mother, but he cannot change anything else because that isn't what actually happened in his life. He can only do what he was always going to do and keep moving forward with the paradox.

Yes, at least that’s my interpretation of it and how I believe our lives work in real life too. I mean if you think ab it we’re all stuck on the same “predetermined” path. From start to finish in all the infinite possibilities, there will be one definitive way our lives play out. The thing is in the moment we don’t know how things will play out. The only difference is eren got his hands on the answers for his life early.

Nov 9, 2023 9:05 PM

#41

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Nov 2015

117

Reply to Merve2Love

@raffyzita

Get off your high horse^^
What do YOU know about plot, having watched 25 Anime in your Lifetime?

Also: He DID change stuff, if you remember :)
But some things are meant to be. You can't do anything about them, no matter what. THIS is what this whole slave to freedom thing was about. He couldn't change it, cause it was meant to be, regardless of what he did. If anything that's a pretty unique way to tackle the idea of something like "Fate"

@Merve2Love Anime are just stories bruh. You expect me to put all stories that I read/watched/listened here? Your argument be weak bruh.

Anyway if you liked this fixed whatever you do you. I find it pretty dull.

Nov 9, 2023 10:29 PM

#42

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Dec 2020

524

Reply to raffyzita

@Fuhrer_Wrath I understand this take.
However in my opinion its so forced that its jarring. The fact that we the fans needed to have this conversation to try to make it make sense shows how poorly everything is written/communicated.
I disagree that it enriches it thematically, there is nothing profound in the "slave to freedom" statement to justify the added complexity (if you can even call it that due to how vague everything is).
I mean what do you get from that statement as an individual. There just nothing in it that's worth anything.

@raffyzita I guess to each their own. I didn't find it forced or jarring.

The moment we had that whole paths episode where we found out Eren saw the future when he kissed Historia's hand I figured out that the Rumbling will have something to do with it too.
Especially when the show doubles down in it with the whole Ramzi thing.(Eren already knew he would kill Ramzi).

I don't think the characters having a conversation to explain it makes it poorly communicated.
It's the same as the Grisha reveal. If Grisha had not verbally dictated the thing about the future memories or Eren had not verbally explained to Zeke his motivations it would have been hard to figure out what happened.

Explaining plot points through exposition is a very common thing in Anime and has been done in AoT itself many times.

Again I guess we can only agree to disagree.

I find the idea of Eren bieng a Slave to Freedom very profound and ironic.
What I get from that statement is the ironic tragedy of Eren.
A person who became so obsessed with the idea of freedom that he essentially became a slave to that obsession.
In his pursuit of Freedom Eren created a situation for himself where he never had any Freedom to begin with. Where he had no choice.
The fact that Eren does it to himself makes it si tragic and ironic.
It's the folly of obsession and taking anyone idea to its extreme.

Nov 9, 2023 10:46 PM

#43

Hikinekomori

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May 2012

1107

A predetermined future cannot be changed. It cannot be changed even if it is known. Even if you don't want to do that thing that thing is still predetermined and you will just do it.
Isn't stupid? it does sounds stupid maybe predetermined future doesn't exist maybe knowing the future won't make it predetermined.
Fritz Ymir most likely did suffer from Stockholm Syndrome the weird thing is that the victims of such syndrome are powerless but Ymir is godlike.
Isn't it stupid? It does sound stupid. Why did she keep going for 2000 years?
I believe that the author did not want to make Eren or Fritz Ymir evil so it was just created the "source of all living matter" as a catastrophic braindead puppeteer.
And resembles an insect to make it clear that it is not a fully conscious being and is validated by following primordial instinctive principles such the fight-or-flight response being attacked.

Nov 9, 2023 10:54 PM

#44

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Nov 2015

117

Reply to Fuhrer_Wrath

@raffyzita I guess to each their own. I didn't find it forced or jarring.

The moment we had that whole paths episode where we found out Eren saw the future when he kissed Historia's hand I figured out that the Rumbling will have something to do with it too.
Especially when the show doubles down in it with the whole Ramzi thing.(Eren already knew he would kill Ramzi).

I don't think the characters having a conversation to explain it makes it poorly communicated.
It's the same as the Grisha reveal. If Grisha had not verbally dictated the thing about the future memories or Eren had not verbally explained to Zeke his motivations it would have been hard to figure out what happened.

Explaining plot points through exposition is a very common thing in Anime and has been done in AoT itself many times.

Again I guess we can only agree to disagree.

I find the idea of Eren bieng a Slave to Freedom very profound and ironic.
What I get from that statement is the ironic tragedy of Eren.
A person who became so obsessed with the idea of freedom that he essentially became a slave to that obsession.
In his pursuit of Freedom Eren created a situation for himself where he never had any Freedom to begin with. Where he had no choice.
The fact that Eren does it to himself makes it si tragic and ironic.
It's the folly of obsession and taking anyone idea to its extreme.

@Fuhrer_Wrath I can respect that.

Nov 9, 2023 11:07 PM

#45

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Dec 2020

524

Reply to raffyzita

@Fuhrer_Wrath I can respect that.

@raffyzita Thank You.

Nov 9, 2023 11:19 PM

#46

Theo1899

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Jun 2016

13900

Yeah it's called predestination. Now the important question with predestination is how free will works. One school of thought says that free will is preserved while God has knowledge of who is going to believe or not. Another school says that God has already decided who is going to believe or not.
What does this have to with AOT? Well it proves that even Eren is the anti-christ and he initiated the apocalypse.

MEA·MENTVLA·INGENS·EST

Nov 10, 2023 1:02 AM

#47

Akilis93

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Feb 2013

161

kotoamatsukami00 said:
@raffyzita I don't understand how it can be predetermined though because he says he made the choice to make the titan eat his mom instead of bertolt because he wasn't supposed to die yet. So clearly he can change things that would cause the whole timeline to change. Maybe I am being stupid though idk.

he had to chose it. Other way he wouldnt be on a position where he has to choose to let her mom be eaten because if bertholt was eaten that day it would change future and there would be no future where eren makes titan eat his mom. Thats what most people seem to miss. Future has impact on past just like past has impact on future. So there is no choice for Eren to begin with. It all was supposed to happen.

Nov 10, 2023 7:12 AM

#48

Merve2Love

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Apr 2020

3988

Reply to raffyzita

@Merve2Love Anime are just stories bruh. You expect me to put all stories that I read/watched/listened here? Your argument be weak bruh.

Anyway if you liked this fixed whatever you do you. I find it pretty dull.

@raffyzita

Ye, but you don't watch Anime^^ So....it's not this high and mighty, knowledgeable opinion you made it out to be, you know. Anime is different.
Just don't talk down to people, when you don't know much about the subject...that's all Im asking^^

Merve2LoveNov 10, 2023 7:17 AM

Nov 10, 2023 9:05 AM

#49