| I don't understand what problem people have with the depiction of slavery. Its a fictional world ffs. Game of thrones has slavery which one of the MCs(the dragon girl) used a lot to get power, but look at how successful it is. I don't hear outrage on that. Oh wait, it's a woman that's using slavery so I guess it's fine. |
| For the relevant questions, you need to append "why did the writer write the story such that..." to the start. |
| Info for people who have problems with this show: they are right, this show is garbage |
NothinComplexPls said: I don't understand what problem people have with the depiction of slavery. Its a fictional world ffs. Game of thrones has slavery which one of the MCs(the dragon girl) used a lot to get power, but look at how successful it is. I don't hear outrage on that. Oh wait, it's a woman that's using slavery so I guess it's fine. Daenerys has been criticized to hell and back for her actions in books 3 & 5 of the peerless A Song of Ice and Fire saga. There are literally thousands of forum pages and blog pages pouring over her actions and multiple people, viewers and readers alike, have expressed hatred, disgust, dislike, or disappointment in her on many sites dedicated to discussing the shows and the books; the fact that you don't see these because you are not a part of its forums and communities does not mean they don't exist; and this is especially made more complicated by the fact that the GRRM Reaper is not an amateur author and actually presents nearly everything, including slavery, as multifaceted issues. Ever heard of the fan term "The Meeereenese Knot"? A sampling of the kind of discussions the Meereenese Knot entails: A Laboratory of Politics is a multi-part blog about Slavery and the economy and politics of Slaver's Bay with regards to our actual history: Untangling The Meereenese Knot is another multi-part blog that tackles the above issue and more but confining the discussion within the realms of the story. And I think the fact that such staggering amount of analysis and discourse that can come out of "just fiction ffs" like A Song of Ice and Fire is ultimately a triumph of its narrative. The idea that implications in fiction is not worthy of discussion just because "it's fiction ffs" is inherently limiting. So instead of throwing random words, tossing aside the chessboard, and walking away like you won something, lay your counterpoints. Or leave the people who wants to discuss it to discuss it. It shouldn't bother you so much that people are making threads that do not view a favorite of yours in a positive light and are instead discussing its various negatives in depth, right? Nobody's forcing you or anybody else in the fanbase to participate in those discussions. You don't want politics in your anime? Some people do and they do want to discuss it. The compromise is that you allow them to discuss it and just ignore their threads. (Unless they're literally hounding you in your profile, message, or in your posts in this forum, in which case they're just dicks, block em and report em). Because the fanbase does not own their anime's specific forum. It's a place for everybody. |
EankiJan 31, 2019 10:41 AM
 You gave up your freedom of speech when you clicked Agree to the User Agreement This is not a public platform. My gaze is the measure of all things: I stopped considering "anime" a helpful tag Recommended Essays Exploring Actually Excellent World-Building |
Aginor25 said: Instead of pointing at specific things, I'll just quickly say that this is a series that reveals more of the plot the further it goes on so try to just hold back on making resolute opinions until more comes out lol. So basically I have to read an entire book before I can decide if I like it? What? That doesn't make any sense. A good story should capture my imagination and make me want to find out what happens next from the first page. Also. Every story "reveals more of the plot the further it goes on". That's the definition of a story. A plot should be cohesive and well-paced at every stage. This does not mean that information cannot be withheld from the viewer, but it needs to be done in a way that maintains the coherence of the narrative. An apparently nonsensical plot point is not suddenly excusable if it gets explained away later. It's still nonsense. Irrational characters or events need to be framed in such a way so that the viewer understands that their behavior is an intended part of the story. Failure to do these things is what we call "bad writing". @Eanki Thank you for saying this, I agree. |
| If you believe slavery is wrong then main character in fictional show should follow your moral code and not have slaves no matter what under every situation ?! And if he does not follow your moral code then the show is bad and deserve criticism ?! I don't see people complain about murder (even if the victim is child), mass killing or stealing cars (like in GTA5) but anything has slavery or rape/false accusation we see some SJW screaming. If you don't like then don't watch it without screaming, some people don't like horror stuff but they don't write big articles about it. Also, it is unrealistic to portray ancient culture without slaves because slavery was normal at that time. |
thepathJan 31, 2019 12:31 PM
Sisyphusson66 said: Shield Hero's writing doesn't deal with the morality of situations or actions, nor ambiguity in tough times for the characters. Instead, it is more concerned with showing that Naofumi is purely a victim and more righteous than the rest. Take this most recent episode as an example: The nobles and other heroes condemn Naofumi for slave-owning, and seek to free Raphtalia. At the same time, Raphtalia is being held captive by the King's men and treated more like an actual slave for the first time since she was purchased by Naofumi. This is what the story is interested in showing, not that the act of slave owning is wrong, which would imply that what Naofumi did was indeed wrong, no matter the consequences, but instead that Naofumi is a better person than everyone else since he treats Raphtalia equally and respects her agency. Definitely, and that's why people are crying about whitewashing. To be clear, I don't have a horse in the slavery controversy race. My beef with the show is at a more technical level. But, this is for the sake of discussion. The contrast in treatment that Raphtalia receives from the nobles versus Naofumi: it's de-emphasizing the role of actual slavery in the situation and saying "look, these people are treating Raphtalia LIKE a slave, whereas her actual master treats her like an equal". So what conclusion is the viewer supposed to draw? We are supposed to conclude that in this particular instance, Naofumi's ownership of Raphtalia is justified. Why? Because his treatment ultimately does her good; she is cared for and grows as an individual. The slave seal allowed Naofumi to force her to fight, and that this was the right thing to do because it forced her to face her fears and take control of her own destiny. The behavior of the King and his entourage reinforces this view, as their supposedly anti-slavery stance is contrasted with their patronizing and controlling behavior - what we would normally expect to see from those who perpetuate slavery. The problem is that this completely ignores what slavery is. Slavery completely dehumanizes a person, it takes away their personal agency, and reduces them to an object. The kindness or lack thereof shown by a slave owner is immaterial in the face of these facts; it doesn't change the power dynamic of the relationship. This is even before getting into all the reasons that are used to justify slavery in the first place. That is why it is not appropriate for the Shield Hero story to ignore these facts. Using slavery as a vehicle to contrast Naofumi's righteousness with the hypocracy of the nobility is problematic as well as lazy writing. It's a plot point of convenience. How can we make the King and the nobility out to be condescending hypocrites? Why, but having them denounce slavery while at the same time acting worse than actual slave owners! Despicable! King and Princess BAD! Shield Hero GOOD! We're not going to worry about how wrong slavery is because we need it to show that Naofumi is a Good Guy!! Ultimately, I don't really care. This story has so many issues before even getting to a can of works like this, that it's hardly worth making a more serious argument. |
| Even though there is a use of slavery, it's not like they're condoning or promoting it. Obviously slavery is bad, and that should be something known before watching the show. |
 |
AnimeSucks420 said: Info for people who have problems with this show: they are right, this show is garbage I love how you claim to trigger people, but seem very triggered yourself. |
SSL443 said: Definitely, and that's why people are crying about whitewashing. To be clear, I don't have a horse in the slavery controversy race. Wait what? What whitewashing? |
Araragi said: A shit ton of isekais employ the use of slavery in their world building. Those who complain about it seem to forget the concept that people are awful and will abuse others if they are 'different', especially in a different or underdeveloped world like which many isekais are set in. The issue is not whether you have slavery in your story. The problem is trying to depict positive to it. It's saying there is some good in rape. That said, I expect shield hero to handle it as well as most stories from Narou does, with ignorance and edge. StufedAnmalQueen said: Even though there is a use of slavery, it's not like they're condoning or promoting it. I-I don't know about that chief:     |
Iron_MawJan 31, 2019 6:49 PM
Aplasia said: I find some of the audience are having a problem with the term "slave" rather than the context, which is nonexistent. Ironically the main character basically freed her from slavery the moment he purchased her. She stayed by his side out of her own will, which negates the criticism Are we watching the same show? I missed the part where he freed her. She has the slave seal and the manicles for several episodes after he buys her. |
Aplasia said: =The people who have problems with this show would not have any problems with it if it were just the MC and his side kick who has a crush on him like your thousands of other Shonen Animes. Exactly, which is why there is no point to Raph being inslaved to Naofumi at all. You could the same relationship without it. 99% of isekai like Shield Hero only use slavery for edge and fetishism. They don't critically engaged with it. It's seriously and heavy that massive harmful effects on people that is still felt today. Even slaves of so called kind slave owners tons of emotional damage even if their were nearly physical abuse as others. The author clearly has not real grasp of this subject beyond people brought other people and it is primary include to attract edgelords. It's kind of thing sounds forbidden by society to do which is all more reason why it is done. Raph is never gonna feel at least a little awkward at the fact Naofumi brought as she should even under the best intentions. So anything atrocious action can be justified no matter what. There are no lines that can't be crossed as there flimsy reason for it. |
Iron_MawJan 31, 2019 7:33 PM
Aplasia said: He told her to save herself when fighting with the 2 dogs. He was willing to die for her in order for her to escape. Thats sounds like freedom to me. Are you being disingenuous on purpose? You said: Aplasia said: Ironically the main character basically freed her from slavery the moment he purchased her. She stayed by his side out of her own will, which negates the criticism They didn't fight the dogs the "moment he purchased her". |
SSL443 said: Aplasia said: I find some of the audience are having a problem with the term "slave" rather than the context, which is nonexistent. Ironically the main character basically freed her from slavery the moment he purchased her. She stayed by his side out of her own will, which negates the criticism Are we watching the same show? I missed the part where he freed her. She has the slave seal and the manicles for several episodes after he buys her. He didn't Literally Free Rapthtalia it was more Metaphorical. If Raphtalia had been bought by Someone else or had stayed with the master who owner her before Naofumi, She would just be a Slave tied up in a dungeon that has to do anything Commanded to her no matter how disgusting it was. After Naofumi bought her, she gained her "freedom" from the world of Slavery since Naofumi treats her as a Daughter. Now that I think about it, It was more like Adopting a dog (Or in this case Raccoon) that had a bad owner and giving them the love and affection they need and deserve than actually buying a slave to do your beating. He Might've not freed her literally but he let's her be herself and do what she wants which sounds like freedom to me. |
  愛がなければ、見えない。 Without Love, the truth cannot be seen. |
Aplasia said: SSL443 said: Are you being disingenuous on purpose? You said: They didn't fight the dogs the "moment he purchased her". You are right. The time from the purchase to the dog fight was still slavery. I agree. But beyond that, it is no longer an issue. I am trying to narrowing down what the problem the audience has with the show. Whether they have problem with episode 2 or the entire anime/manga/novel. Goblin slayer for example had rape only in episode 1, but the critics seem to have problem with the whole show. I have issues with GS but none of them have to do with The R4P3 scene. I didn't mind it honestly. Yeah, It was gross but thats it. It was nothing special. My problem with the show is that the Characters were underdeveloped even to the extent that they don't even have names. I know its supposed to be emulating D&D campaigns but you don't have to go that far. Also, the Anime's Animation was Bland. It made things that looked cool in the manga look mediocre because of the loew production values the show had. Aplasia said: Yeah. I just realized that. Also, Most of the people who bitch about the slavery haven't seen Rapht's arc to completion so they don't know a lot of the details so we shouldn't be mad.Afloo said: He Might've not freed her literally but he let's her be herself and do what she wants which sounds like freedom to me. Which once again makes me wonder if the audience are just arguing over semantics. |
| 愛がなければ、見えない。 Without Love, the truth cannot be seen. |
Eanki said: Daenerys has been criticized to hell and back for her actions in books 3 & 5 of the peerless A Song of Ice and Fire saga. There are literally thousands of forum pages and blog pages pouring over her actions and multiple people, viewers and readers alike, have expressed hatred, disgust, dislike, or disappointment in her on many sites dedicated to discussing the shows and the books; the fact that you don't see these because you are not a part of its forums and communities does not mean they don't exist; and this is especially made more complicated by the fact that the GRRM Reaper is not an amateur author and actually presents nearly everything, including slavery, as multifaceted issues. Ever heard of the fan term "The Meeereenese Knot"? A sampling of the kind of discussions the Meereenese Knot entails: A Laboratory of Politics is a multi-part blog about Slavery and the economy and politics of Slaver's Bay with regards to our actual history: Untangling The Meereenese Knot is another multi-part blog that tackles the above issue and more but confining the discussion within the realms of the story. Fair enough, I admit I made a mistake there as I'm not actively involved in the GoT community. Eanki said: And I think the fact that such staggering amount of analysis and discourse that can come out of "just fiction ffs" like A Song of Ice and Fire is ultimately a triumph of its narrative. The idea that implications in fiction is not worthy of discussion just because "it's fiction ffs" is inherently limiting. I still don't get it. What's so bad about depicting some negative aspects of life in fiction? Eanki said: So instead of throwing random words, tossing aside the chessboard, and walking away like you won something, lay your counterpoints. Or leave the people who wants to discuss it to discuss it. It shouldn't bother you so much that people are making threads that do not view a favorite of yours in a positive light and are instead discussing its various negatives in depth, right? Nobody's forcing you or anybody else in the fanbase to participate in those discussions. You don't want politics in your anime? Some people do and they do want to discuss it. The compromise is that you allow them to discuss it and just ignore their threads. (Unless they're literally hounding you in your profile, message, or in your posts in this forum, in which case they're just dicks, block em and report em). Because the fanbase does not own their anime's specific forum. It's a place for everybody. Assumptuous much? If you want to discuss something then discuss it, who am I to stop you? I said I didn't "understand" why people would get triggered over fiction, not I don't "want" them to discuss it. |
SSL443 said: No, I know what "whitewashing" is. I was just too stunned to believe there might actually be people who think that only black people have been slaves and because of that they think this shows depiction of slavery is wrong. Jak said: Wait what? What whitewashing? Uuuuhhhhh... you know... the whole reason people are getting upset about slavery in this show? Because they think it is whitewashing slavery. It's a term. I didn't invent it. |
Jagd84 said: Aplasia said: =The people who have problems with this show would not have any problems with it if it were just the MC and his side kick who has a crush on him like your thousands of other Shonen Animes. Exactly, which is why there is no point to Raph being inslaved to Naofumi at all. You could the same relationship without it. 99% of isekai like Shield Hero only use slavery for edge and fetishism. They don't critically engaged with it. It's seriously and heavy that massive harmful effects on people that is still felt today. Even slaves of so called kind slave owners tons of emotional damage even if their were nearly physical abuse as others. The author clearly has not real grasp of this subject beyond people brought other people and it is primary include to attract edgelords. It's kind of thing sounds forbidden by society to do which is all more reason why it is done. Raph is never gonna feel at least a little awkward at the fact Naofumi brought as she should even under the best intentions. So anything atrocious action can be justified no matter what. There are no lines that can't be crossed as there flimsy reason for it. Wow that was so dumb. Like really really dumb if you believe that. |
Sisyphusson66 said: Shield Hero's writing doesn't deal with the morality of situations or actions, nor ambiguity in tough times for the characters. Instead, it is more concerned with showing that Naofumi is purely a victim and more righteous than the rest. Take this most recent episode as an example: The nobles and other heroes condemn Naofumi for slave-owning, and seek to free Raphtalia. At the same time, Raphtalia is being held captive by the King's men and treated more like an actual slave for the first time since she was purchased by Naofumi. This is what the story is interested in showing, not that the act of slave owning is wrong, which would imply that what Naofumi did was indeed wrong, no matter the consequences, but instead that Naofumi is a better person than everyone else since he treats Raphtalia equally and respects her agency. This is troubling because it is does not lead to much character growth for Naofumi, as the story keeps trying to support his world view instead of getting him to change and adapt. Claiming it doesn't lead to character development 4 episodes into the anime lol. The Nobles and the King don't despise slavery, they despise the Sheild Hero. They're just looking for another way to put him down. I do t know if you noticed, but that's the king of the country where slavey is legal. Obviously he doesn't have a problem with it. Raphtalia was literally on the verge of death and afraid to show any personality and to afraid to defend herself. All of that changed when she met Naofumi because of how he treated and cared for her. She was able to become herself again and found a reason to live. Naofumi finally found someone he could trust and slowly starting to turn his personality around becoming less of an an asshole because of the relationship he has built with Raphtalia and his other soon to be party members. |
Jak said: No, I know what "whitewashing" is. I was just too stunned to believe there might actually be people who think that only black people have been slaves and because of that they think this shows depiction of slavery is wrong. Yeah, right? It's almost like your definition of whitewashing is completely wrong. Hint: it has nothing to do with race. |
Afloo said: He Might've not freed her literally but he let's her be herself and do what she wants which sounds like freedom to me. So the parts where she was literally tortured by the slave seal was also freedom? |
SSL443 said: Afloo said: He Might've not freed her literally but he let's her be herself and do what she wants which sounds like freedom to me. So the parts where she was literally tortured by the slave seal was also freedom? You mean the couple seconds of pain to get her to overcome her paralyzing fear. The second time he used they would have both died if he didn't use it. |
-Swish said: You mean the couple seconds of pain to get her to overcome her paralyzing fear. The second time he used they would have both died if he didn't use it. Yes, those are the situations I am referring to. Still waiting to hear how that in any way fits with the narrative that he "metaphorically" freed her. |
-Swish said: You mean the couple seconds of pain to get her to overcome her paralyzing fear. The second time he used they would have both died if he didn't use it. Basically what -Swish said Keep this in mind, Naofumi Still thought of her as a tool that time. After that he never uses it again and only used it at that moment as a last resort. If he hadn't used it they would've both died. Those 2 seconds Naofumi used the Cursed Seal's effect are way less than what It would've been used if someone else owned her. |
| 愛がなければ、見えない。 Without Love, the truth cannot be seen. |
Aplasia said: The rest of the series is different. We'll see. Outlook not so good. |
Afloo said: Basically what -Swish said Keep this in mind, Naofumi Still thought of her as a tool that time. After that he never uses it again and only used it at that moment as a last resort. If he hadn't used it they would've both died. Those 2 seconds Naofumi used the Cursed Seal's effect are way less than what It would've been used if someone else owned her. You can argue that it was necessary all you want. Doesn't make it "freedom" in any way shape or form. |
SSL443 said: -Swish said: You mean the couple seconds of pain to get her to overcome her paralyzing fear. The second time he used they would have both died if he didn't use it. Yes, those are the situations I am referring to. Still waiting to hear how that in any way fits with the narrative that he "metaphorically" freed her. He used it kind of to make her overcome her fear so that they would both survive or at least so that she could escape. Naofumi was dojng it for her. If he had died and she had escaped she would've become free. |
| 愛がなければ、見えない。 Without Love, the truth cannot be seen. |
SSL443 said: -Swish said: You mean the couple seconds of pain to get her to overcome her paralyzing fear. The second time he used they would have both died if he didn't use it. Yes, those are the situations I am referring to. Still waiting to hear how that in any way fits with the narrative that he "metaphorically" freed her. If you would have some patients maybe you'd find out. It literally happens in the next episode. |
SSL443 said: Afloo said: Basically what -Swish said Keep this in mind, Naofumi Still thought of her as a tool that time. After that he never uses it again and only used it at that moment as a last resort. If he hadn't used it they would've both died. Those 2 seconds Naofumi used the Cursed Seal's effect are way less than what It would've been used if someone else owned her. You can argue that it was necessary all you want. Doesn't make it "freedom" in any way shape or form. Ok this is becoming one of those "I want to discuss but even If people give me spoilers proving my theory wrong I'm gonna dismiss them because my own head canon is better" Threads. I ain't gonnna Bother Anymore. The only thing I'll tell you is read the manga up to chapter 20 or 25 more or less. You will get most of you answers there and you will see how Rapht's and Naofumi's relationship evolves from Master and Slave to Adoptive Father and daughter. |
| 愛がなければ、見えない。 Without Love, the truth cannot be seen. |
Hunter_Garou said: Aplasia said: It has been shown time and time again that Naofumi can't level up without slaves. I am starting to wonder how you managed to skip that even though it was made very clear both with the visual hints in the anime and in the manga. I think you lack comprehension skills because that's the only explanation as to how you missed that !!This is a problem I agree. The author should just drop the idea of the slave mark. I don't understand why the MC had to apply it to his other followers later either. It felt unnecessary. Hunter_Garou said: Aplasia said: It has been shown time and time again that Naofumi can't level up without slaves. I am starting to wonder how you managed to skip that even though it was made very clear both with the visual hints in the anime and in the manga. I think you lack comprehension skills because that's the only explanation as to how you missed that !!This is a problem I agree. The author should just drop the idea of the slave mark. I don't understand why the MC had to apply it to his other followers later either. It felt unnecessary. Um no. He can't level up without party members or companions. Naofumi doesn't need slaves specifically and this point he could free Raph and the issue would be gone. She is not gonna runaway from him. If he only use slaves as party member non matter what now that a blunt and stupid narrative conceit in trying to justify slavery. |
SSL443 said: Afloo said: Basically what -Swish said Keep this in mind, Naofumi Still thought of her as a tool that time. After that he never uses it again and only used it at that moment as a last resort. If he hadn't used it they would've both died. Those 2 seconds Naofumi used the Cursed Seal's effect are way less than what It would've been used if someone else owned her. You can argue that it was necessary all you want. Doesn't make it "freedom" in any way shape or form. How in the world is it not? She's free to leave him if she wants, but she won't because she wants to stick by his side and help fight the waves. |
Afloo said: He used it kind of to make her overcome her fear so that they would both survive or at least so that she could escape. Naofumi was dojng it for her. If he had died and she had escaped she would've become free. I understand why he did it. That doesn't make it freedom. Doesn't matter if he was doing it for her or for the Czar of Russia. -Swish said: If you would have some patients maybe you'd find out. It literally happens in the next episode. I don't see what that has to do with anything. Just because she chooses to become his slave again or he never uses the mark again does not somehow retroactively make her freed in the previous episodes. Remember: all I am responding to is the person who said that Raphtalia was freed the "moment" he bought her. None of what you are arguing in any was substantiates that claim. Sorry. |
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