LabelFlash said: I'm a vegan, which includes not forcing animals to be slaves, so obviously I do care. Then shouldn't you accept your own contradictions of how animals can die from having a vegan diet as well ? You dont want to support harm of animals but you do. So you should accept that non-vegans arent actually meaning harm either, it's just what they are accustomed to. LabelFlash said: I do care about deforestation, and animals with a central nervous system, and about animals that have different brain structures (but all of the ones I listed experience pain very similar to humans.) You were talking against anyone not vegan though so you were lumping all animals together. Fish don't process things the same as a human or a pig. Clams and mussels dont process things same a human or a fish. LabelFlash said: Call it what you like, I don't really care. I'm sure you're a genius on economics though. In all serious, as I said before I don't give a shit about you whining about capitalism. You're being unrealistic. It's highly unlikely meat would ever be outlawed especially when corporations have great political influence. It's highly unlikely you could get everyone to go vegan especially if you cant outlaw an industry of animal products. The more realistic goal is some vegan, some vegetarian, some pescitarian, some insectivore, some have reduced meat consumption. Going that route would save a lot more animals than pushing a dogmatic vegan supremacy. You and vegans like you actually make people less likely to be vegans from how you present your arguments and treat everyone around you that isnt vegan like some idiot or monster. It's counter-productive and you need to learn to stop approaching things that way. LabelFlash said: Even if I didn't think about that (I did) what do you want me to do about that? Argue about the strip mines? For you to drop the superiority complex and calm down. LabelFlash said: Answer these following questions if you don't want to be "strawmanned" since your posts are all over the place. 1. Humans can go without eating meat. - Is this true or untrue? 2. Veganism can prevent animals from suffering - Is this true or untrue? 3. Meat-based products in most countries are horrid for your health - Is this true or untrue? If you want to talk about economics, that's fine. I don't really care though, my goal here is to discuss the merits of not killing animals. 1. The nutrients in different foods are actually different forms of those nutrients and the human body processes those in different ways. Some nutrients from meats are harder for the body to use than the form from veggie and fruits but some nutrients from veggies and fruits are harder to process than meat sources. Since different people have different backgrounds genetically and different health conditions what is right for one might not be right for another. Some can go without meat but some cant go without meat or at least certain nutrients extracted from it. 2. All animals involved in production in what you eat? No. Certain animals specifically for being eaten? Yes. More animals than eating meat? That really depends on how they do their crops and their location and all sorts of factors. Also again as I pointed out multiple times certain animals may not actually feel pain at all from lack of a brain and central nervous system so a person who eats only meat of mussels and clams isnt causing any suffering more than a vegan even though that technically makes them not vegan. 3. That depends on how the animal is raised, how the meat is processed, what type of meat it is,what cut of meat it is and how it i prepared. There is a lot of factors there that I dont think you should generalize to say it's true for most countries. See this is why I said it's not black and white. Natasha said: All I was asking was for people to support the claims they make. Ironically, if plants do feel pain, that's one more reason to become vegan. Anyway, what is the actual point you guys are trying to make? That it’s acceptable to mistreat and slaughter billions of animals because plants could possibly 'feel pain'? What? Do you mean fruitarian? Because ordinary vegans still eat vegetables. No that isn't what anyone said. The point is for certain vegetarians and vegans to stop being so full of themselves and hostile toward others. The whole argument about plants is to build humility. |
traedApr 20, 2017 12:15 AM
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| First off, two things: 1. Pop science blogs and a few studies are hardly indicators of any kind of discovery here. Pop science and pop psych blogs are infamous for taking research and presenting conclusions that are far from being warranted. This research is probably fine, but saying that plants feel pain because they release gasses that are "equivalent" to feeling pain is not at all the same as feeling pain and no biologist would agree with that claim. In fact, if you look up a Vice article on the same topic about feeling being eaten, the scientist being questioned says: "Plants don't have pain receptors. Plants have pressure receptors that allow them to know when they're being touched or moved—mechanoreceptors. It's a specific nerve cell." In other words, plants may react to being damaged, but because they lack a nervous system and cognition, they have no "awareness," therefore, they don't care. https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/we-asked-a-botanist-how-sure-science-is-that-plants-cant-feel-pain-302 2. I'll admit I'm no biologist, so take this with a pound of salt, but all plants (to my knowledge) have no nervous system. They have something similar that can generate electrical impulses. Without pain receptors and the nervous system, plants cannot feel pain, nor can they have any cognitive processes. Therefore, it really doesn't matter what happens to them, nor do they "care." Again, from the article here: https://www.vice.com/en_ca/article/we-asked-a-botanist-how-sure-science-is-that-plants-cant-feel-pain-302 It is very important not to confuse reactions to stimuli with cognitive processes. A plant may release gasses upon being attacked as part of its defense mechanisms not because it feels pain or because it wants to live, but simply because life has a tendency to seek survival. That's not a cognitive process, that's just biological mechanics. The question of feeling pain is fundamentally difficult to answer even for humans. How do I know that you feel pain? I don't feel what you feel? How do I know that I'm not the only one who feels pain and everyone else is just faking? For the most part, we assume others feel pain because we do and others are very much like we are. That's also how we assume that other people are even conscious and thinking beings in the first place. So no, plants aren't "crying out in pain" nor can they feel pain nor do they really have any chance at cognition and sensory experiences like we do. However, I think the easier question to ask vegans is whether they think that abortion is as immoral as killing animals? After all, a fetus is not much different from a wanton animal with low cognitive function. If killing animals is wrong because all life is precious, then clearly abortion must be wrong. If killing animals is wrong because we deprive them of future pleasures, then how can we deprive fetuses of future pleasures. Even a zygote is still potential life, so how is it justifiable to deprive a zygote of future pleasures? I think that is a more powerful question and one that should force vegans to be consistent. |
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| What i don't understand is how some of you are using the word "humane killing" How do you humanly kill somthing ? What defines humanly? For example if i put some nice candles and sweet music before i rape someone, have i now humanly raped someone? Or if i say thank you after robbing someone have i now humanly stolen somthing? Tbh that's just sugar coating something bad. |
Effulgence said: What i don't understand is how some of you are using the word "humane killing" How do you humanly kill somthing ? What defines humanly? For example if i put some nice candles and sweet music before i rape someone, have i now humanly raped someone? Or if i say thank you after robbing someone have i now humanly stolen somthing? Tbh that's just sugar coating something bad. You are comparing rape with killing animals? Are you out of your mind? You sound like Sorsha @Saucy I don't know who you are but I'd like to say one thing to you THAT EMILIA SIGNATURE IS AWESOME! <3 |
swirlydragon said: Effulgence said: What i don't understand is how some of you are using the word "humane killing" How do you humanly kill somthing ? What defines humanly? For example if i put some nice candles and sweet music before i rape someone, have i now humanly raped someone? Or if i say thank you after robbing someone have i now humanly stolen somthing? Tbh that's just sugar coating something bad. You are comparing rape with killing animals? Are you out of your mind? You sound like Sorsha @Saucy I don't know who you are but I'd like to say one thing to you THAT EMILIA SIGNATURE IS AWESOME! <3 Mmmh? How am i out of my mind? I also stated another example btw |
AxBattler said: @Effulgence The guy in the video made the same argument, but I don't think it is that complicated. If I am going to be executed, I'd rather be put to sleep temporarily, then permanently via some fast reacting drug, than impaled, crucified, then slowly set on fire. If I am going to be robbed, yes I -would- rather have the person say "Sorry man, gotta feed my family, put your wallet on the table, thanks for your understanding" than simply be beaten up to an inch of my life than robbed. You might not like the outcome which is why this is likely brought up, but do you really think that all process are equal? If you can recognise that some killing are more inhumane than others, than a humane killing would be one that that tries to be as far from inhumane killing without taking the "killing" away. But if you really think that all process are equal for as long as the outcome is the same (e.g. a slow painful death is in nowhere different than a quick death), then I suppose we have nothing to talk about. Is it sugar coating something bad? Obviously from a vegan lens where animals are given a sufficiently high importance that they wouldn't eat them on moral grounds. But we are back at the impasse between those who think it is okay and those who think it is not okay to eat animals in the first place I can see your point, however wouden't you rather not be robbed/raped/killed? that's the thing at the end of the day you are still getting robbed/raped/killed but "humanly" if somthing bad happens and you put humanly before it, magicly it's ok now. Like sure i rather not suffer all my life and have a quick death, but i rather not suffer at all. But i guess you are right this agrument makes it go back to square one. |
traed said: What? Do you mean fruitarian? Because ordinary vegans still eat vegetables. A plant-based diet consumes far fewer plants than a meat-based diet. No that isn't what anyone said. Yeah, right. This unsubstantiated "plants tho" argument has been directed at me many times by people who want to defend their apathy for certain animals. What baffles me is how they convince themselves that the difference between plants and non-human animals is much smaller than humans and non-human animals. The point is for certain vegetarians and vegans to stop being so full of themselves and hostile toward others. The whole argument about plants is to build humility. Person A: “The Yulin dog meat festival is cruel and unnecessary.” Person B: “Plants could have feelings too. Build some humility.” |
MischievousGhostApr 20, 2017 7:58 AM
Effulgence said: What i don't understand is how some of you are using the word "humane killing" How do you humanly kill somthing ? What defines humanly? For example if i put some nice candles and sweet music before i rape someone, have i now humanly raped someone? Or if i say thank you after robbing someone have i now humanly stolen somthing? Tbh that's just sugar coating something bad. There is clearly a difference between me overdosing you with morphine because you have terminal brain cancer and me bashing your skull with a hammer for the same reason. Killing painlessly is usually seen to be humane. In fact, the American Veterinary Medical Society (AVMA) has guidelines for how to ethically euthanize animals. They define conditions like pain, consciousness, methods, type of illness, and so on. https://www.avma.org/KB/Policies/Documents/euthanasia.pdf There are definitely humane ways to kill living creatures be they human or animal. As far as veganism is concerned, humane killing of animals usually refers to the opposition of factory farming where animals are not only treated in brutal ways but are also executed in brutal ways. Things like tiny cages where animals cannot even stand up in, hens being crammed into very small spaces where they often trample over corpses of other hens in the dark, pigs have their legs broken, chickens have their beaks cut off, male chicks are often executed at birth, so on and so forth. They're not treating animals humanely, nor are they killing them humanely. They are in a lot of pain during their lives and they often die in horrible pain as well. From what I gather, some vegans are no so much opposed to consuming animal products but more opposed to factory farming and animal abuse that is really quite necessary to have such efficiency. They problem is that we as a society are quite used to buying factory-farmed meat, so the demand is high. To get rid of factory farming, we need to get rid of the demand or regulate the hell out of it and I don't see either happening any time soon. We already have a lot of regulation regarding cage sizes and "free-range" farming to ease the lives of animals, but at the end of the day, they are born to be killed at a much younger age than normal. If everyone owned their own garden and they own animals like the feudal days, then the amount of animal abuse would be much lower, but that's also not a realistic expectation when we have gone from 90% of the labor force in the late 18th century consisting of farmers to about 3% of the labor force consisting of farmers in the late 20th century. |
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Lord_Sithis said: That's quite silly. Releasing gases isn't the same as feeling pain. So when I breathe and release carbon dioxide, I feel pain? You aren't a plant. Animals and Plants have different body structures. Lord_Sithis said: Also, you might want to fix the video link OP. Thnx for telling me about that. The video has gone private. I guess some angry Vegan extremist complained/reported about this video (since it showed that plants also feel pain so Vegans are hypocrites) :p _Lain-_ said: Vegan Gains is insane. I remember there was a rumor of him sending a death threat to an ex- vegan or something? Yeah Ikr Vegan gains is a psycho |
shotz said: honestly vegan gains seems like a shit person irl but his arguments about veganism are solid. i've been subbed to him for around a year now. Wtf? Seriously? That guy EXPLOITED HIS GRANDFATHER'S DEATH AND CALLED HIM A RETARD. AND YOU SUBSCRIBED TO THAT PSYCHO? You might as well subscribe to Sorsha @Lord_Sithis That's a false equivalence. They did not say that plants release oxygen when they feel pain. It's another gas and they only release that gas when they are attacked. |
swirlydragonApr 22, 2017 1:10 AM
Lord_Sithis said: So when plants release oxygen, they feel pain? No, you just didn't read the article, it's quite apparent that certain gasses act as distress signals for plants to attract different insects to their aid: "The smell we associate with freshly cut grass is actually a chemical distress call, one used by plants to beg nearby critters to save them from attack (usually it's an affront by insects, but in this case, it's lawnmower blades)" "These chemical communications can be used to poison an enemy, alert surrounding plants to potential dangers or attract helpful insects to perform needed services" so on and so forth. Plants don't feel pain. They don't feel anything or at least not in the same way that we humans feel pain. Our understanding and experience of pain is quite limited and it's presumptuous to say that animals and plants feel it to the same effect that we do. It seems that many animals feel pain like we do because they have similar nervous systems and brains to interpret chemical and electrical signals. Remember, pain serves a functional purpose like "HEY! Avoid doing what you just did!" Plants don't really have that cognitive disconnect because they don't have cognition. They just function biologically much like your body cells function, without sentience. |
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shotz said: swirlydragon said: who cares i use ad block on youtube anyway. tbh tho i wish there was a way to use adblock on youtube where you could whitelist certain channels. it's not that i'm too lazy to deal with ads but my internet is slow enough that buffering ads makes it way too inconvenient. Wtf? Seriously? That guy EXPLOITED HIS GRANDFATHER'S DEATH AND CALLED HIM A RETARD. AND YOU SUBSCRIBED TO THAT PSYCHO? You might as well subscribe to Sorsha Adblock DEFINITELY has that feature because I've been using it for the last month. You can literally select whatever channel you want to whitelist by simply watching their video and clicking on the adblock symbol to select "whitelist channel ______" I used to just turn off adblock for YouTube, but with constant drama and clickbait, I turned it back on for channels I'm not subbed to. |
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Lord_Sithis said: swirlydragon said: The false equivalence here is releasing that other gas = pain. That is just completely dumb. Plants don't have a nervous system to feel pain.Wtf? Seriously? That guy EXPLOITED HIS GRANDFATHER'S DEATH AND CALLED HIM A RETARD. AND YOU SUBSCRIBED TO THAT PSYCHO? You might as well subscribe to Sorsha @Lord_Sithis That's a false equivalence. They did not say that plants release oxygen when they feel pain. It's another gas and they only release that gas when they are attacked. Well they are a different being so they have a different way of feeling pain (unlike animals). Just because we have nervous system doesn't mean all other living being should have one (the same nervous system) in order to feel pain |
Lord_Sithis said: swirlydragon said: Thing is, nervous system is what makes pain. It's an alert from the nervous system telling us that we're getting hurt. And since plants don't have nervous systems, they don't feel pain. Sure, they might have some reactions when threatened or damaged, like how many animals' adrenaline levels increase when in danger, but that's not pain.Well they are a different being so they have a different way of feeling pain (unlike animals). Just because we have nervous system doesn't mean all other living being should have one (the same nervous system) in order to feel pain As I said, nervous system is NOT THE ONLY SYSTEM that determines pain. |
shotz said: Saucy said: i dunno dude i figured that feature would be there but i just don't see it when i click the adblock symbol. could it be because of my browser or not having the latest adblock version? Adblock DEFINITELY has that feature because I've been using it for the last month. You can literally select whatever channel you want to whitelist by simply watching their video and clicking on the adblock symbol to select "whitelist channel ______" I used to just turn off adblock for YouTube, but with constant drama and clickbait, I turned it back on for channels I'm not subbed to. Are you using Chrome? I'm on Chrome and I've had Adblock for the last 4 years. Never had to update it or anything. Here's what it should say when you click on it on a YouTube video: |
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Lord_Sithis said: swirlydragon said: Nervous system IS the only system that determines pain.As I said, nervous system is NOT THE ONLY SYSTEM that determines pain. https://medlineplus.gov/pain.html That's incorrect. Just because we have a nervous system doesn't mean all living beings should have one. Maybe in the future, we might meet a alien or another life form. It might not have a nervous system but that doesn't mean it wouldn't feel pain (they might have a alternate to nervous system just like plants) |
Lord_Sithis said: swirlydragon said: You aren't proving anything and are just speculating. As I said, pain comes entirely from the nervous system, there's nothing else involved in it. Plants releasing gases is just a reaction in the same way poisonous frogs release poison or adrenaline levels increase when endangered. There's no actual pain being felt because plants can't feel anything.That's incorrect. Just because we have a nervous system doesn't mean all living beings should have one. Maybe in the future, we might meet a alien or another life form. It might not have a nervous system but that doesn't mean it wouldn't feel pain (they might have a alternate to nervous system just like plants) Yes and you know more than those scientists since you yourself are a plant pffft |
Lord_Sithis said: swirlydragon said: Where exactly does it say plants can feel pain? If plants feeling pain was proven (of course it wasn't), these scientists have completely revolutionized biology.Yes and you know more than those scientists since you yourself are a plant pffft There's also evidence that plants can hear themselves being eaten. Researchers at the University of Missouri-Columbia found that plants understand and respond to chewing sounds made by caterpillars that are dining on them. As soon as the plants hear the noises, they respond with several defense mechanisms Well then, why don't you give it a read? |
Lord_Sithis said: swirlydragon said: And where is the pain there? That'd judt a defense rection like a fuckton of living beings have and it's not related to pain at all.Well then, why don't you give it a read? Try again. Sorry I quoted the wrong post. Here's the real one According to researchers at the Institute for Applied Physics at the University of Bonn in Germany, plants release gases that are the equivalent of crying out in pain. |
Lord_Sithis said: swirlydragon said: "Are the equivalent". It is a comparison, it's not saying plants feel pain. Because they obviously don't. They react in a way that is similar to what happens when animals feel pain. That is, they release certain chemicals. But the pain itself isn't there.Sorry I quoted the wrong post. Here's the real one Nahh You are just using mere speculation to make the water flow your way. You can misinterpret this all you want but the truth won't change and the truth is that PLANTS FEEL PAIN! |
swirlydragonApr 22, 2017 1:56 AM
| fucking character limit |
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swirlydragon said: shotz said: honestly vegan gains seems like a shit person irl but his arguments about veganism are solid. i've been subbed to him for around a year now. Wtf? Seriously? That guy EXPLOITED HIS GRANDFATHER'S DEATH AND CALLED HIM A RETARD. AND YOU SUBSCRIBED TO THAT PSYCHO? It seems like you only know Vegan Gains through other YouYubers who take him out of context. His 'threats' are just satire used to attract new viewers, and his grandfather abused him when he was a kid. This is how he actually he is: Bearing vs Vegan Gains Live Debate swirlydragon said: You can misinterpret this all you want but the truth won't change and the truth is that PLANTS FEEL PAIN! Then answer this: Natasha said: Can anyone who agrees with OP explain how plants can experience pain? "I think so" or "this sensational article/video said so" won't cut it. Use plant anatomy and physiology to support your position. It should be simple if, as OP claimed, "scientists have already confirmed that plants feel pain". I’ll accept citations from peer-reviewed articles. |
Natasha said: swirlydragon said: Wtf? Seriously? That guy EXPLOITED HIS GRANDFATHER'S DEATH AND CALLED HIM A RETARD. AND YOU SUBSCRIBED TO THAT PSYCHO? It seems like you only know Vegan Gains through other YouYubers who take him out of context. His 'threats' are just satire used to attract new viewers, and his grandfather abused him when he was a kid. This is how he actually he is: Bearing vs Vegan Gains Live Debate swirlydragon said: You can misinterpret this all you want but the truth won't change and the truth is that PLANTS FEEL PAIN! Then answer this: Natasha said: Can anyone who agrees with OP explain how plants can experience pain? "I think so" or "this sensational article/video said so" won't cut it. Use plant anatomy and physiology to support your position. It should be simple if, as OP claimed, "scientists have already confirmed that plants feel pain". I’ll accept citations from peer-reviewed articles. Believe whatever you want. But apart from his threats and his grandfather's case. He is also Islamophobic and he also doesn't understand the difference between Sikhisim and Islam. I MEAN THE GUY DOESN'T EVEN KNOW THAT SIKHISM (which is rather close to Hinduism) and Islam are two different religion. LOOK AT THIS FUCKIN VIDEO! DO YOU KNOW WHICH RELIGION IS IN THE THUMBNAIL? IT IS SIKHISM! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8QtCJAIlY4 Therefore, all his claims and proofs are nothing but delusional stuff As for the plants, believe whatever you want, m8 But scientists have already proven that plants do feel pain PS:- As for me, I only eat meat once or twice in a month. Usually I only eat vegetables and rice |
swirlydragonApr 22, 2017 7:43 AM
| This thread is somewhat silly. It seems people assert that plants can feel pain, and when others assert plants cannot feel pain they question how one could possibly know. As of right now, their is no study that has proven that plants feel pain (or that they don't for that matter), however since the original claim is that plants do feel pain, the burden of proof is on the former. Without providing said proof, the default assumption (based on what we do know of nociception) would be that it is unlikely plants feel pain. However, again, we don't "know" they don't feel pain, their is just nothing present to suggest they do. |
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jarring said: That is not a good article in proving anything as it is an opinion piece written by a Professor of journalism, and does not cite a single peer-reviewed article within the entirety of the text. Pirating_Ninja said: This thread is somewhat silly. It seems people assert that plants can feel pain, and when others assert plants cannot feel pain they question how one could possibly know. As of right now, their is no study that has proven that plants feel pain (or that they don't for that matter), however since the original claim is that plants do feel pain, the burden of proof is on the former. Without providing said proof, the default assumption (based on what we do know of nociception) would be that it is unlikely plants feel pain. However, again, we don't "know" they don't feel pain, their is just nothing present to suggest they do. there is plenty to suggest they might very well feel and have intelligence despite not having what we consider a brain. i provided a good article on it earlier, but i'm guessing nobody here is going to want to spend that much time reading actually good material on the subject. http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/12/23/the-intelligent-plant In fact much of the article has glaring inaccuracies, such as "Plants are conscious" - the sensation of pain does not require consciousness; furthermore, proving that a plant has a consciousness (similar to non-human animals) is a task nobody has figured out how to do (Their is an assumption that many animals, have a nervous system capable of consciousness, but because animals cannot vocalize their own thoughts to humans, this is by no means a fact, and very much just an assumption - Plants, not even having a nervous system, is an even further stretch) |
Pirating_NinjaApr 22, 2017 2:07 PM
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