8animet said: Agafin said: I wonder whether all the bitterness will vanish if the next arc is great or whether the wound left by the first three Post TS arcs is permanent. It all depends, if the next arc is on W7/Enies Lobby level I think some of the bitterness will definitely vanish So far we basically got bad versions of the Arlong Park arc and Alabasta Saga (I know I'm simplifying the arcs but especially between Alabasta and Dressrosa there are lots of similarities) Many people hold EL in the same regard as the Post TS arcs, just washed up action scenes 99% of the time with no creative input whatsoever. Completely skippable. So I doubt it'd change anything. We already have an Enies Lobby 2 (and Enies Lobby was already Alabasta 3, Arlong 4 and Kuro 7) DarkAnglez, no one ignored you *hugs*, I just did not post yet, will post from PC tomorrow, given the length :) |
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| ^That's just what Mikasa does. You get used to it. Agafin said: I wonder whether all the bitterness will vanish if the next arc is great or whether the wound left by the first three Post TS arcs is permanent. Doubt it. Dressrosa has pretty much everything I've come to define as One Piece, but all the complaints about the length and elements that have always been present just reinforces the idea that many people are just in it for the "epicness" and not the plot. 8animet said: Why only use Vivi? How do you think Shirahoshi and Rebecca compare to Conis? Or Lola? Or Caimie? Sure only the 3 of them are princesses, but the situations are different. Shirahoshi wouldn't last long outside without Vander Dekken's axes killing her, yet she technically protected all of FI from the giant ship Noah. Rebecca is certainly a weaker case, but Viola plays as important a role in helping Sanji save the Strawhats (and keep Momo and Caesar away from Doffy). |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
8animet said: I'm not here for the "epicness" at all (although that is nice too), for me the characters and the story are most important But I actually feel like Oda is still in Marineford-Epicness Mode Just look at the arcs so far, there is no breather or relaxing time, it all happens in a few days Everything in Dressrosa happening in one day is just silly though Add the crazy amount of new characters and way too many plotlines and you get a very cluttered arc Same with the fights, very unsatisfying since Oda skips most of them and they end in a very anticlimatic way (Doffy's crew was a complete joke) I don't think Dressrosa is at all classic OP Half of the SH's are lazily written off and it mostly focuses on random new characters (Colloseum fighters who even get the fights) Alabasta is classic OP (I'm just rewatching it and its great, soo much better than Dressrosa) btw regarding Viola, like I said she had potential at the beginning of the arc but quickly was shafted into the background and just gave reports on the current situation thats it (really liked her interactions with Sanji but sadly that didn't go anywhere) Dressrosa still had its good points (Law's flashback, Doffy as a villian) but overall it doesn't even come close to the top arcs of OP (Water 7/Enies Lobby, Sabaody, Alabasta etc.) I'd say that your points are contradictory, but it's kind of hard to actually get at what you are driving at. Is "Marineford-Epicness mode" a bad thing? What's bad about it? How is everything happening in one day silly too (I have seen up to Law being freed from the cuffs)? Do you take into account the things taking place at the same time? And the flashbacks? You say "cluttered" while I say "intricate", and that's what a plot is all about. OP has always been best when it is intricate (granted Dressrosa is a bit more intricate than other arcs.) I haven't seen the fights yet, so I can't comment on them, but if the issue is that they are short, that would contradict the complaint that the arc is too long. New characters are also always present in OP. Water 7 had a huge focus on Galley La and Franky's group when he wasn't even a Strawhat yet. If the other Strawhats get the focus in the next part, will you complain that the current ones were "written off"? The Strawhats are of course great, but what would be the point if we only got most of them all the time? Should new characters never get a chance to make an impression? Why do I feel that if it were different, we'd be getting complaints that "the other characters never get any focus, they're just fodder, etc." It's not like you have to like all of them, and you've already mentioned that you have 2 favourites (Bart & Cavendish) and they've gotten more time than the others. How is that much different from Marineford where the 2 biggest favourites (Marco and Jozu) got the most time out of all the commanders and allies? It then sounds like you want the others to just stand around and do nothing. You've got to make up your mind on what you want because right now you are just demanding that the narrative do the impossible. As for Viola, was what she already did in saving the other Strawhats and guiding Luffy & helping free Law not enough? Keep in mind that Vivi was likewise in the background after her official intro on Whiskey Peak until the final climax at Alabasta. Barring that the nature of her ability is suited for observation, what exactly were you expecting her to do? |
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8animet said: Mikasa said: Many people hold EL in the same regard as the Post TS arcs, just washed up action scenes 99% of the time with no creative input whatsoever. Completely skippable. So I doubt it'd change anything. We already have an Enies Lobby 2 (and Enies Lobby was already Alabasta 3, Arlong 4 and Kuro 7) DarkAnglez, no one ignored you *hugs*, I just did not post yet, will post from PC tomorrow, given the length :) Who are these many people? Enies Lobby is constantly seen as the best OP arc (with Marineford) It always wins polls etc. And completely skippable? wtf? I think you are imagining things Also you are just simplifying the arc with Alabasta 3, Arlong 3 and Kuro 7 Its obvious you hate the series and are not a fan, why post here so much? I'm not a fan of HxH or FMA B (both are overrated as fuck) you don't see me going to those subforums constantly and hating on those shows I dont keep a record of the people. And yes, completely skippable. Nothing of note hapened. We had this discussion many times and no one could even prove ot was relevant beside some really weak reasoning. |
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8animet said: [/spoiler][spoiler] RedRoseFring said: I'd say that your points are contradictory, but it's kind of hard to actually get at what you are driving at. Is "Marineford-Epicness mode" a bad thing? What's bad about it? How is everything happening in one day silly too (I have seen up to Law being freed from the cuffs)? Do you take into account the things taking place at the same time? And the flashbacks? You say "cluttered" while I say "intricate", and that's what a plot is all about. OP has always been best when it is intricate (granted Dressrosa is a bit more intricate than other arcs.) I haven't seen the fights yet, so I can't comment on them, but if the issue is that they are short, that would contradict the complaint that the arc is too long. New characters are also always present in OP. Water 7 had a huge focus on Galley La and Franky's group when he wasn't even a Strawhat yet. If the other Strawhats get the focus in the next part, will you complain that the current ones were "written off"? The Strawhats are of course great, but what would be the point if we only got most of them all the time? Should new characters never get a chance to make an impression? Why do I feel that if it were different, we'd be getting complaints that "the other characters never get any focus, they're just fodder, etc." It's not like you have to like all of them, and you've already mentioned that you have 2 favourites (Bart & Cavendish) and they've gotten more time than the others. How is that much different from Marineford where the 2 biggest favourites (Marco and Jozu) got the most time out of all the commanders and allies? It then sounds like you want the others to just stand around and do nothing. You've got to make up your mind on what you want because right now you are just demanding that the narrative do the impossible. As for Viola, was what she already did in saving the other Strawhats and guiding Luffy & helping free Law not enough? Keep in mind that Vivi was likewise in the background after her official intro on Whiskey Peak until the final climax at Alabasta. Barring that the nature of her ability is suited for observation, what exactly were you expecting her to do? You aren't up to date? Oh then I shouldn't spoil anything You misunderstand me I get that with every arc we get new characters, its always been like that with OP and thats a good thing too The problem is the amount of them and how its handled Dressrosa shafted the Straw hats in favour of some new random dude's (way too many at that) thats what I don't like Pre time skip OP always balanced this well why suddenly change the focus? We had plenty of awesome arc characters AND focus on the SH's I love Marineford, the SH being shafted and the focus on the bigger picture was understandable and fine, it was the finale for the first half of OP But he still keeps doing that with no balance, the SH were really shells of their former selfs in this arc and just felt like shallow characters with no depth The bigger picture stuff that is going on and the consequences of this arc (not spoiling anything) are interesting but I want some meaningful SH interaction too Thats why W7/Enies Lobby will always be better than Marineford for me I suppose it all depends on why you like OP, seems like we have different reasons for watching it Eh Vivi and Viola really can't be compared, the first one actually had depth and character she wasn't really in the background I suggest you rewatch the Alabasta Saga (plenty of great character moments even before the climax in Alabasta), Viola is just wasted potential I did recently rewatch Alabasta, it's one of my favourite arcs, but comparing both for the points they are both at (right before the climax) I actually prefer Dressrosa. I have to wait for the finale to give my final judgement, as the final fight with Crocodile is what sealed Alabasta as a 10/10. I've carried on for so long because your complaints only leave room for more complaints, and I cannot see any possible way for the narrative to encompass all of them. You are complaining about the lack of Strawhats now, but if they were in the arc and the ones to face Doffy's crew, there would lots of complaints that "it's so predictable" and "Oda never changes things up," etc. It just comes off more as a reason to look for things to complain about, and I hardly ever hear the positives mentioned. The Strawhats getting separated here is understandable as well. If they had stayed, their plan would fall apart and we'd get next to no further development. Even if they were there, most of the other characters would have nothing to do, so regardless there'd be complaints. As for Vivi and Viola, I see no reasons not to compare them. Both have done brave things in their respective positions and helped out in as many ways as their abilities allowed them to. |
| "Let Justice Be Done!" My Theme Fight again, fight again for justice! |
| So, all I gathered was because Rebecca always cries for help, she's a shitty character. It is because she was introduced as a strong gladiator, but turns out to be a crybaby. Okay. In other word, she doesn't suck, you guys just don't like her. Isn't that right? Well I guess in a way, if you guys don't like her, that means she suck. I personally am not a fan of her character, but I wouldn't go as far as to say she sucked. She had a role, and she fulfilled it, it was nothing more nothing less. 8animet said: But bro, Fishman Island doesn't have as much epicness as people would think, Hody wasn't epic, but story and character wise, he was good. And people hate him. Because he's not epic.I'm not here for the "epicness" at all (although that is nice too), for me the characters and the story are most important 8animet said: Let me give you an example, and I haven't watch Monster yet, so yes, just an example.Whats not clear? I think all three arcs so far post time skip have been rather disappointing FI was terrible (5/10), PH was meh (6/10) and Dressrosa had potential but at the end was only a 7/10 By unnecessary characters I'm talking about the Tontatta's and the overkill with the Colloseum fighters (way too many new characters that no one cares about) Dressrosa especially has way too many plotlines and characters, it gives it a cluttered feel (seems Oda is still in Marineford mode) and in the end you get half assed characters Just compare the Princesses post time skip with Vivi, Shirahoshi was annoying as hell and Rebecca has been a waste of screentime Poor Viola had potential but was just a walking recap for most of Dressrosa And wut? The villian is certainly important but who judges the arc soley on that? FI was bad and Hody was ONE of the reasons for that but it had other problems too And Doffy is a great villian but still Dressrosa lacks in other aspects (lack of straw hats, dragged out, disappointing fights, Doffy's crew being a joke etc.) Davy Back Fight and TB are solid arcs, we needed fun arcs after Skypiea and then again after Enies Lobby Monster was disappointing. It was terrible, it was meh, and it had potential but at the end it's only 7/10. By unnecessary characters I am talking about the filler characters like character A or character B, way too many characters I don't care about. It has too many plotlines and characters it gives a cluttered feel, and in the end, you get half assed characters. Now, do you think I was being clear on what made Monster sucked? You probably don't. You only know that it was disappointing, long, dragged out, useless, etc. Nothing specific. Note: Again, I haven't read Monster so what I said was just an example. I don't get why do you have to compare one character with another. It's great that they are not the same. Thank God. And believe it or not, many people judge an arc just by the villain. People have regarded Davy Back Fight and Thriller Bark arc as the worst One Piece arcs before the TS. Not just because it's the least favorite arc of One Piece, but they say it's straight up bad. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
It sucks when Rebecca cries  |
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| Rebecca cries all the time about anything that happens Robin cried ONCE during a truly cathartic moment but I guess there's no difference |
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Dahaka_ said: Rebecca cries all the time about anything that happens Robin cried ONCE during a truly cathartic moment but I guess there's no difference Specify this "anything that happens" please! |
"once"  |
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| lol well, at least you tried, as weak as it was bigivelfhq said: Dahaka_ said: Rebecca cries all the time about anything that happens Robin cried ONCE during a truly cathartic moment but I guess there's no difference Specify this "anything that happens" please! Luffy saves her? Cries Kyros saves her? Cries Diamante bullies her? Runs away and (almost) cries and so on she started out quite decent but as times goes by, she just becomes more and more of an useless crybaby. at first she was confident and able to fight for herself, but right know she is nothing more than shirahoshi 2.0 and serves no purpose other than getting in trouble so someone can have an epic enterance while saving her |
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Not convinced...    |
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StandoffishMan said: Dahaka_ said: - Hi, do you mind answering my question? http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1400749&show=50#msg40748018 mayday123 said: e.e |
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| Mikasa is so desperate to prove his extremely weak point. It's cute. 8animet said: Yeah I'm with you Rebecca is a worthless crybaby, she did have potential but ended up being worse than Shirahoshi Well here's hoping we get a strong female character in the next arc And lol at the Robin example... The problem isn't even that Rebecca cries so much its that she doesn't do anything else True that, but her not doing anything else makes the crying stand out as a sore thumb. StandoffishMan said: Dahaka_ said: - Hi, do you mind answering my question? http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1400749&show=50#msg40748018 Just look at the quote dude :P |
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| Be in denial all you want but 7 cries are way too much, else people wouldn't consider EL as annoying as DS. |
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Dahaka_ said: StandoffishMan said: Hi, do you mind answering my question? http://myanimelist.net/forum/?topicid=1400749&show=50#msg40748018 Just look at the quote dude :P tsudecimo said: e.e Lol, well that was an epic fail, sorry I though you were quoting someone from this thread. My bad. |
Dahaka_ said: lol well, at least you tried, as weak as it was bigivelfhq said: Specify this "anything that happens" please! Luffy saves her? Cries Kyros saves her? Cries Diamante bullies her? Runs away and (almost) cries and so on she started out quite decent but as times goes by, she just becomes more and more of an useless crybaby. at first she was confident and able to fight for herself, but right know she is nothing more than shirahoshi 2.0 and serves no purpose other than getting in trouble so someone can have an epic enterance while saving her If in the 3rd situation that you said she didn't cry, why are you including it? So you have 2 situations, and 2 justifiable ones, and you say "anything that happens"? Good way to not defend your case. To note, In your 2nd situation she doesn't cry because Kyros saves her. She start to cry because she was right about to be killed, and continued because she finally met with her father, one of her objectives after the forgotten memories returned. Do you know who was the other people that cried when they remembered and met kyros again? Viola and King Riku. (Her other objective was being of any little help for Luffy, that promised to defeat Doflamingo for her. She achieved both of her objectives by going to where her father was going and by delivering Law's key.) In your 1st situation she doesn't cry because Luffy saves her. She cries because she being forced to Kill Viola. Do you know who also cried in a similar situation? Viola(in that same event), King Riku, the soldiers and citizens of Dressrossa. So am I to believe that all this people cry "about anything that happens". She also cried when Luffy defeated Doflamingo. Everybody in the island cried in that event: Viola, Gatz, King Riku Citizens, Bartolomeo(because of Luffy epicness XD), tontattas, Ussop, Kyros. Should she be different? Even when she had such a huge emotional investment in that event? So the 2 events that you talk that she cries at least Viola and King Riku also did, and at most all of the citizens of the country! Are we being hypocrites here? So is something bad, because is her, but is OK when is others? "as times goes by" You want also to include "as the enemies got out of her league", because you're talking of 2 confrontations, with Diamante and Doflamingo. "at first she was confident and able to fight for herself" Don't forget you're talking of guys that were defeated by Doflamingo in a second like Rolling Logan, and by Doflamingo executives like Suleiman, that was defeated by Dellinger. Also she wasn't in any way confident. She even tried to kill Luffy/Lucy before the Finals, because she wasn't confident. She was doing the same has King Riku when he entered the Tournament, Desperation, not Confidence. Having a strongly set objective is not synonymous of being Confident. For example: Vivi in all the Alabasta saga wasn't confident, but set to do what she had to do. Luffy on other hand was pretty confident of being able to beat Crocodile in the entire saga. Comparing Shirahoshi to Rebecca is the most pitiful attempt to make a point. You're saying a person that cries when is almost killed, forced to kill one of his loved ones and that gets reunited with a parent that she forgot for 10 years, is the same as a person that cries because somebody yell at her: http://img.bato.to/comics/2011/04/29/o/read4dbae5682768c/11.png This is basically blind hate, and trying to justify it with generalizations. Adding the always present argument that she before wasn't like that, when in fact her characterization was always the same, seems like this is the syndrome of "I wanted her to be something that she didn't ended up being". Don't like the character? OK, that is on you; but please don't start complaining because the fan fiction in your head didn't come to fruition. |
bigivelfhqJul 10, 2015 7:27 PM
bigivelfhq said: This is accurate. You shouldn't really waste all that time explaining to them, some people will just ignore your points anyway, and continue to repeat the same thing over and over again.This is basically blind hate, and trying to justify it with generalizations. Adding the always present argument that she before wasn't like that, when in fact her characterization was always the same, seems like this is the syndrome of "I wanted her to be something that she didn't ended up being". Don't like the character? OK, that is on you; but please don't start complaining because the fan fiction in your head didn't come to fruition. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
bigivelfhq said: "I wanted her to be something that she didn't ended up being". Don't like the character? OK, that is on you; but please don't start complaining because the fan fiction in your head didn't come to fruition. It's not fanfiction, she showed promise at the beginning of the arc and then turned into character that does two things a) cry b) gets rescued Lets do a quick summary of her present story: At first we meet her and she gives us info about herslef and some stuff she tries to kill Luffy, fails and cries she sees soldier and cries she fights, beats some fodder and wins, or rather survives, thanks to her haki she makes promise that she will be the one protecting solider and later fails to fullfill it now, see, at this point, it wasn't that bad, she was at least trying to do something other than crying, she makes a promise we all wished to see come to fruition, we see her interesting style of fighting we all wished to see used in some cool battle later. It's not in my head, it's all given to use by the author. and what happens later? finale of the tournament, she gets trashed by diamante and has mental breakdown remembers her father and cries gets saved by sabo then when she is saved, Luffy promises to beat Doffy and she cries then she managed to bring Luffy the key, but only thanks to zoro, robin and barto covering her nad dwarves helping with transportation meets diamante, does nothing, cries for help Kyros comes, she does nothing aside from crying Everytime something important happens to her, she cries. She is useless crybaby. And I agree that comparing her to Shirahoshi wasn't a good idea. Shirahoshi at least did something meaningful. Rebecca did NOTHING aside from bringing the key, which was achieved only thanks to other people. But yeah, keep telling yourself it's my fanfiction. Mikasa said: Be in denial all you want but 7 cries are way too much, else people wouldn't consider EL as annoying as DS. If you have the balls to test your claim, make a poll with this question: "Is Dressrosa as bad/annoying as Enies Lobby" or "was EL Robin as annoying as Rebecca". I'm sure it's going to show you're right. |
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| Nope because fanboys will vote no in denial, or just because it was my idea and they will go against anything I say even if it's true. |
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| So you have no data to prove your claim. I thought so. |
Dahaka_Jul 11, 2015 6:56 AM
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Dahaka_ said: we see her interesting style of fighting we all wished to see used in some cool battle later Yep, and you continue to say isn't fanfiction :/ You just wanted to see her fight again. About her crying I already responded to that. You're just being an hypocrite. Good continue doing that. About her wanting to protect the "Toy Soldier", this is important, Toy soldier not Kyros. She knew that just a Toy and some little dwarfs wouldn't be capable of doing anything against Doflamingo and his family and that they would die for nothing. She explicitly says that, I don't know how that didn't entered some people heads(basically you just generalized the scene to be just "protected" and removing every other context). The delivery of the key and not giving her credit for it. You say that "was achieved only thanks to other people". Do you know what was achieved thanks to other people? Luffy Defeating Doflamingo, Zoro Defeating Pica, Kyros defeating Diamante, ... literally everybody in Dressrossa that did something in that phase. I don't know where in the world we don't give credit for someone doing something, because others helped in the process. It becomes even more ridiculous that you say that she did nothing and right after that say that the deliver of the key doesn't count. |
bigivelfhq said: Yep, and you continue to say isn't fanfiction :/ It's not, it's logical conclusion. A character presents his motivations, traits, values he/she believes in, skills and so on, then you excpect them to mean something. That they will be utilized when writing a character arc, but instead Oda flushed it down the toilet and make her a fanservice doll used for cheap emotional moments and absolutely nothing more. Zero fighting, zero good dialogue or monologue, zero meaningful actions excluding the key delivery. Ever since D block ended, she does nothing but cry for help. bigivelfhq said: You just wanted to see her fight again Why the hell would I not expect some fighting when the author introduces a unique fighting style for a character? She even had haki for christ sake. And Oda instead of making her use those skills flushed them down the toiled, as I have said. bigivelfhq said: About her crying I already responded to that. You're just being an hypocrite. Good continue doing that. No, I'm not, you just don't understand what I'm saying. Her crying during emotional moments and when facing extreme danger is not the problem that I have with her. The problem is that Oda doesn't utilize her strenghts and instead is making a cheap emotional hook out of her. He purposely places her in scenarios that lead to nothing but her crying or being resuced. She's become a tool, a plot deivce that is supposed to induce feels in readers. And she does that by crying constantly. It's Oda fault, he made a character with potential, but then decided to use her in the cheapest ways possible. bigivelfhq said: About her wanting to protect the "Toy Soldier", this is important, Toy soldier not Kyros. She knew that just a Toy and some little dwarfs wouldn't be capable of doing anything against Doflamingo and his family and that they would die for nothing. She explicitly says that, I don't know how that didn't entered some people heads(basically you just generalized the scene to be just "protected" and removing every other context). And? The problem is, she did nothing to protect Toy Soldier. Oda didn't even give her a chance to do something about that promise, because he would rather have her be saved and cry. bigivelfhq said: The delivery of the key and not giving her credit for it. You say that "was achieved only thanks to other people". Do you know what was achieved thanks to other people? Luffy Defeating Doflamingo, Zoro Defeating Pica, Kyros defeating Diamante, ... literally everybody in Dressrossa that did something in that phase. I don't know where in the world we don't give credit for someone doing something, because others helped in the process. It becomes even more ridiculous that you say that she did nothing and right after that say that the deliver of the key doesn't count. Difference between her delivering the key and Luffy beating Doflamingo is that Luffy actually did something to beat Doffy. What Rebecca did to deliver that key? Did she use all her strenght to run up there just to deliver the key? No, dwarves took her and all she had to do was jump a few times. Did she made it through some hard obstacle that stood in her way? No, Zoro, Robin, and Barto did everything. She even had to be resuced by Kyros to not die before delivering the key. She did nothing to contribute to that delivery aside from jumping a few times. I mean she didn't even use her own strenght to get up there. She's just useless. And that's Oda's fault. |
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| @Dahaka_ I think it is worth noting her role in this arc, and it is relevant to few of your points, such as her not being active in action, and her fighting style, and having zero good dialogue. You may hate her, but she still delivered the key to Luffy. It is not her own effort, and maybe, she did contribute very little in that task, but it is still her who delivered the key. Edit: When you say you were expecting Rebecca to turn out differently, you mean it's all just your thought, there was no promise, and by that time we didn't really get the whole situation with Rebecca, and we don't know anything about her mental state. Now we know. And now that I think about it, it is really nice that Oda is giving us what we were not expecting, when all I hear from haters are how predictable Oda is, and how he always use the same formula. Well, clearly, he doesn't. |
ToG25thBaamJul 11, 2015 8:10 AM
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
I know that, but that doesn't excuse the lack of any meaningful action from her (aside from that key) Oda didn't want her to dirty her hands and that is why he gave her a fighting style that leaves her hands clean. And then instead of using that fighting style in a way that would work perfectly with the whole idea of not having blood on her hands, and would make her contribute to something meaningful, Oda makes her a constantly crying, useless fanservice doll. It's not her character that I have a problem with, it's Oda's way of writing that character that comes down to "cry and be saved" over and over again. I can understand that she is weak and therefore can't beat any executive, but she dodged freaking hakuba who one-shotted an entire block of gladiators in a split second. Why not use that skill to make her do something cool? Edit: When you say you were expecting Rebecca to turn out differently, you mean it's all just your thought, there was no promise, and by that time we didn't really get the whole situation with Rebecca, and we don't know anything about her mental state. Now we know. Could please stop with this crap? Everything I wanted from her was already established by the author as a part of that character. It's not something I pulled out of my ass. She had the skill and she had the resolve. Then she became an useless, cheap plot device with fanservice added into the mix. And I have already explained why I think so. It's not the idea that was bad, it's the execution that fell flat. |
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| I do have data, the fact that Naruto was more popular back then shows the pop spike for OP was during the war and action, but the story itself was just as badly received (except the flashback) read my original post again. |
| End Zionazism |
Dahaka_ said: Oops, grammar error, I mean to say that we didn't know everything about her before, and that was where you already started having your expectation, which is clearly misplaced. It was too early to have that sort of expectation for her, as we were not revealed of everything about her. Not everybody is as how they look at first glance.Edit: When you say you were expecting Rebecca to turn out differently, you mean it's all just your thought, there was no promise, and by that time we didn't really get the whole situation with Rebecca, and we don't know anything about her mental state. Now we know. Could please stop with this crap? Everything I wanted from her was already established by the author as a part of that character. It's not something I pulled out of my ass. She had the skill and she had the resolve. Then she became an useless, cheap plot device with fanservice added into the mix. And I have already explained why I think so. It's not the idea that was bad, it's the execution that fell flat. Dahaka_ said: This is why I didn't quote "meaningful action" from your previous post. Her duty was important, but I couldn't really say that she had any "meaningful action".As for her dodging Hakuba, first, she barely dodged Hakuba, second, I really doubt that Hakuba is that fast. I mean, he is clearly very fast, I think not even Bartolomeo saw what happened in block D, except for Sabo and 1 other guy. (forgot who) but my point is, he only seem fast in the eye of the lower tiers. What are you expecting her to do? She was facing her trauma sort-of, Diamante, it wasn't just her ability, but also her psychological state, and I have already told you, that she wasn't stable. She was very shaky inside, and I think you're severely underestimating that. And I have already said, "cry and be saved" can be very, very very annoying. In fact, it also annoyed me in the anime, especially with voice, but that's beside the point. But take in all account, that's all she could do. I have already pointed this out, but her reliance on Luffy to take down her enemy is her only relief in this hellish nightmare that has gone on for a very, very long time. Edit: I am pretty sure that I am forgetting some details, have to wait for bigivel to put up a list of Rebecca's action throughout the arc. I am pretty sure that Rebecca has tried to do something on her own, it's just that she didn't succeed. Of course, because she's too weak. |
ToG25thBaamJul 11, 2015 9:02 AM
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
ToG25thBaam said: Edit: When you say you were expecting Rebecca to turn out differently, you mean it's all just your thought, there was no promise, and by that time we didn't really get the whole situation with Rebecca, and we don't know anything about her mental state. Now we know. Dude. Remove my expectations and all the problems I have written about her remain. It doesn't matter what I wanted, she is still useless, cheap plot device + fanservice. It's not about her turning out different that I expected, it's about her not turning out into anything good or even mediocare. She's downright garbage. What are you expecting her to do? She was facing her trauma sort-of, Diamante, it wasn't just her ability, but also her psychological state, and I have already told you, that she wasn't stable. She was very shaky inside, and I think you're severely underestimating that. I don't know, maybe run into someone different? A weaker executive or even some fodder, just so she could have done something on her own against them, so we could all feel that she wasn't useless ? I don't have a problem with her reaction to Diamante, I have a problem that it's the only thing Oda let her do. I'm criticizing Oda right now for making her what I have described many times already. If he had wanted to, he could have made her useful in many ways or at least portray her in much better way. |
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| ^@Dahaka_ So in conclusion you wanted her to do something that seems cool! Nothing more nothing less. First, Being useful isn't defined by doing something cool, but doing something of ANY help to a given purpose. Second, A character shouldn't be created with the end objective of being useful. But of feeling alive in the given world. Third, So now you are implicitly admitting that the "cries about anything that happens" is wrong! There is a really big difference between "anything that happened made her cry" and "cries all the time about anything that happens". Fourth, Again "I have a problem that it's the only thing Oda let her do" has to do with what you wanted/wished that happened. If your problem isn't with the things that happened, but with the things that didn't happened, then your problem isn't with the character, but with the image you wanted/wished for it. If just adding some fodder for her to beat is enough for your opinion of her to change, then that shows how superficial your feeling for her characters is. This just shows how battle oriented and superficial your opinion of characters, specially females, is. You're basically angry at Oda for not empowering Rebecca at the end of the arc. Why not complain only about Oda and his use of Rebecca since the beginning? Why say that she cries for anything? Why say that she is useless? Why say that he is just a plot device? Why say that she is just fanservice? This is just letting the frustration out by screaming at all directions. Basically the only difference between Rebecca and Ussop in this arc is that he got his moment to shine in the end and Rebecca didn't. Is funny to think that if she had defeated Diamante in the arc, other executive or a fodder; than her being just fanservice, just plot device, useless, crying for anything would suddenly vanish, just like that. |
| Reminder that is the One Piece ANIME sub-forum and some of you guys are revealing that hasn't happened yet, tag your spoilers please! |
Dahaka_ said: Okay.She's downright garbage. Dahaka_ said: So, you're pretty much saying let's just pair her up with someone so that you guys can feel that she's useful.I don't know, maybe run into someone different? A weaker executive or even some fodder, just so she could have done something on her own against them, so we could all feel that she wasn't useless ? Nope. Dahaka_ said: Have you every thought that it was Oda's intention to write her that way? What do you think he could have made her do? Fight some other executives after her face off with Diamante? How? Dodging 24/7/365?If he had wanted to, he could have made her useful in many ways or at least portray her in much better way. I am so done with this. You are pretty much like the other guy who say that Oda shafted Sanji and spiralhat crew because he's lazy. Sanji and the rest should not leave for Zou at all, let's keep Momonosuke and Caesar within Dressrosa. Rebecca should do this, should do that, because I want to feel that she's not useless. Let's force her to do some labor, maybe make her pick some flower or something? That's a good idea. You don't realize, THAT'S the entire point. Her self defense move is only for self defense, Kyros did not teach her how to fight so that she can go and face other opponents, it was done so that she can defend herself. If you say that she could have been useful in other areas, not just fighting. Then what could she have done? What else? Was she even aware of the Toy Soldier's plan? The details? She doesn't, if I am right. All she know is, she had to take down Doffy, and she entrusted the mission to Luffy, initially. Then she met Diamante, and learned of the cold truth, that Diamante murdered her mother. She wanted to fight, but of course, we know how that ended up being. bigivelfhq said: +9000. This is what I want from characters from fiction. It is really simple, they don't have to feel badass, they don't have to feel useful, just let me feel that they are real. This has always been what I wanted from a character since way back.A character shouldn't be created with the end objective of being useful. But of feeling alive in the given world. Isterio said: I dislike her design too, but I am sure that RedRoseFring gave an explanation as to why she wears that kind of revealing outfit.Her development was reasonable, the thing I personally dislike is her horrible design. It´s like Oda didn´t care or he wanted to cater specifically for the perverts who he most likely himself is a part of. |
ToG25thBaamJul 11, 2015 11:59 AM
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
bigivelfhq said: snip Wow, what a great example of nit-picking and taking single words out of context. It's sad I have to explain it all over again just because you've decided to ignore my whole argument and made up some silly intepretation based of few words removed from context So in conclusion you wanted her to do something that seems cool! Nothing more nothing less. First, Being useful isn't defined by doing something cool, but doing something of ANY help to a given purpose. No, I wanted her to do something meaningful that would make her character have any reason to exist other than being a plot device for Kyros and cheap emotional hook. Doing something cool would be a good start so she could stop the only two things that she does past for a majority of the arc - crying and being saved. Even if I admit that bringing the key is some kind of an achievement on her part, it's still laughable in an arc this big. Second, A character shouldn't be created with the end objective of being useful. But of feeling alive in the given world. A character shouldn't be created with the purpose of being only a plot device, fanservice and cheap emotional hook. And that is what she is. She is the opposite of living character. She has no live of her own, no good dialaogue, no good intereaction with other characters. Just crying and being saved. Emotional hook and plot device. The end. Third, So now you are implicitly admitting that the "cries about anything that happens" is wrong! There is a really big difference between "anything that happened made her cry" and "cries all the time about anything that happens". Yes, but it doesn't makes much difference since the only situations Oda is willing to put her in are those that make her cry. Fourth, Again "I have a problem that it's the only thing Oda let her do" has to do with what you wanted/wished that happened. If your problem isn't with the things that happened, but with the things that didn't happened, then your problem isn't with the character, but with the image you wanted/wished for it. This is getting annoying. You have no arguments so you're just twisting my words and create silly interpreatations. It's not about what I wanted, I have explained it many times already why I think she is terribly handled character, but let me remind you: does nothing meaningful, zero good dialogue, zero good interactions, only cries and gets saved by other people. She is just a terribly written character that serves no purpose other than what I have mentioned above many times. If just adding some fodder for her to beat is enough for your opinion of her to change, then that shows how superficial your feeling for her characters is. Adding anything that doesn't involve crying and being saved would be good. Once again, mine was only an example that would be a good starting point in making her once again a real character, and not a doll she has become.This just shows how battle oriented and superficial your opinion of characters, specially females, is. You're basically angry at Oda for not empowering Rebecca at the end of the arc. Goddamit, I brought the fighting example because Oda presented het as a fighting character with unique fighting style. HE made her traits revolve about fighting. How hard is this to understand? It's not my idea, it's Oda's. I was just showing an example of how to use already established traits to make a character more than a plot device it is and actually give her some moments that would make her feel alive. Why not complain only about Oda and his use of Rebecca since the beginning? Why say that she cries for anything? Why say that she is useless? Why say that he is just a plot device? Why say that she is just fanservice? 1. Because a the beginning she wasn't so bad of a character. Only later Oda dumped her traits and made her a plot device 2. Because that's what she is doing everything something important happens around her. 3. Because she is. 4. Because she is. 5. Because, other than crying and being saved, that's what she has been for majority of this arc This is just letting the frustration out by screaming at all directions. Cool, frutrations ot not, it makes no difference as long as arguments are there. Basically the only difference between Rebecca and Ussop in this arc is that he got his moment to shine in the end and Rebecca didn't. Except Usopp has an entire manga to do things, Rebecca has only one arc and she does nothing. Aside from haki moment, sugar moment, god gag, the most important thing he has are character interactions, and that is what makes him feel alive. Rebecca? Not so much, even her interactions with Kyros were weak as hell and only good dialogue was on Kyros's side. Is funny to think that if she had defeated Diamante in the arc, other executive or a fodder; than her being just fanservice, just plot device, useless, crying for anything would suddenly vanish, just like that. Never said that, and I've already adressed this point more or less above. |
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ToG25thBaam said: Isterio said: I dislike her design too, but I am sure that RedRoseFring gave an explanation as to why she wears that kind of revealing outfit.Her development was reasonable, the thing I personally dislike is her horrible design. It´s like Oda didn´t care or he wanted to cater specifically for the perverts who he most likely himself is a part of. There are 2 reasons for her design. 1st -> All the gladiators of the colosseum and staff have the same set-up! 2nd -> The objective she wasn't killed when captured by Doflamingo was to humiliate her constantly in the Colosseum. With that in mind one of the things they forced on her was the worst equipment they had, the other high inspection on what she wear. You know in that way is way easier to see her bleed during the battle. The 1st is shown visually. Notice all the other girls of the tournament(Acilia, the girls near Gats, the girl that registered Luffy, the girls fainting due to Cavendish, ...) and all the guys. The 2nd is explicitly said by Gats. |
bigivelfhqJul 11, 2015 12:05 PM
ToG25thBaam said: Have you every thought that it was Oda's intention to write her that way? What do you think he could have made her do? Fight some other executives after her face off with Diamante? How? Dodging 24/7/365? I am so done with this. You are pretty much like the other guy who say that Oda shafted Sanji and spiralhat crew because he's lazy. Sanji and the rest should not leave for Zou at all, let's keep Momonosuke and Caesar within Dressrosa. Rebecca should do this, should do that, because I want to feel that she's not useless. Let's force her to do some labor, maybe make her pick some flower or something? That's a good idea. You don't realize, THAT'S the entire point. Her self defense move is only for self defense, Kyros did not teach her how to fight so that she can go and face other opponents, it was done so that she can defend herself. If you say that she could have been useful in other areas, not just fighting. Then what could she have done? What else? Was she even aware of the Toy Soldier's plan? The details? She doesn't, if I am right. All she know is, she had to take down Doffy, and she entrusted the mission to Luffy, initially. Then she met Diamante, and learned of the cold truth, that Diamante murdered her mother. She wanted to fight, but of course, we know how that ended up being. Well if her skills were for self-defense, then use them for self-defense. It's laughable how you all try to prove how any example I provide is flawed at some level. Fighting, talking, running, doesn't matter what she does, as long as it has any meaning. But I guess seeing her cry and be saved over and over again is enough for you |
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bigivelfhq said: ToG25thBaam said: I dislike her design too, but I am sure that RedRoseFring gave an explanation as to why she wears that kind of revealing outfit. There are 2 reasons for her design. 1st -> All the gladiators of the colosseum and staff have the same set-up! 2nd -> The objective she wasn't killed when captured by Doflamingo was to humiliate her constantly in the Colosseum. With that in mind one of the things they forced on her was the worst equipment they had, the other high inspection on what she wear. You know in that way is way easier to see her bleed during the battle. The 1st is shown visually. Notice all the other girls of the tournament(Acilia, the girls near Gats, the girl that registered Luffy, the girls fainting due to Cavendish, ...) The 2nd is explicitly said by Gats. It's a flawed reasoning. It's Oda who estabslished rules and the story. He created the story in a way so he could draw her in a sexy armour. Don't try excuse fanservice with story, lol. |
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Dahaka_ said: bigivelfhq said: There are 2 reasons for her design. 1st -> All the gladiators of the colosseum and staff have the same set-up! 2nd -> The objective she wasn't killed when captured by Doflamingo was to humiliate her constantly in the Colosseum. With that in mind one of the things they forced on her was the worst equipment they had, the other high inspection on what she wear. You know in that way is way easier to see her bleed during the battle. The 1st is shown visually. Notice all the other girls of the tournament(Acilia, the girls near Gats, the girl that registered Luffy, the girls fainting due to Cavendish, ...) The 2nd is explicitly said by Gats. It's a flawed reasoning. It's Oda who estabslished rules and the story. He created the story in a way so he could draw her in a sexy armour. Don't try excuse fanservice with story, lol. It would be a flawed reasoning if not only for the fact that Dressrossa is a representation of the Mediterranean Europe and the Colosseum of the Greek and Roman battle pits where gladiators and sportsman competed naked or almost naked in the past. Also you're confusing what is fanservice! |
bigivelfhqJul 11, 2015 12:32 PM
Dahaka_ said: Looooool. Tell me you're not serious.It's a flawed reasoning. It's Oda who estabslished rules and the story. He created the story in a way so he could draw her in a sexy armour. Don't try excuse fanservice with story, lol. Dahaka_ said: Nope. I would have disliked her if not for the moment between her and Kyros But I guess seeing her cry and be saved over and over again is enough for you I appreciate that thing that Oda did with her character, it was perfect. Just like what Oda did with Hody. I can definitely see why people don't appreciate these sort of things though. |
| Honobono Log - best slice of life short -------------------------------------------- most kawaii loli overlord ---------------------------- Donquixote Doflamingo AMV - Control |
Mikasa said: It's quite thought provoking how people keep saying "OP Flashback is good but not the present/actually storyline"but the story itself was just as badly received (except the flashback) I'am one of those not so many One Piece fans that is not a big fans of the "Flashback". Why? Because Oda mostly use 'dead' and 'tragedy' to portray a story of said character to evoke my emotion and I'm not a big fans of those kind of writing style. The only OP flashback that I considered amazing is Sanji's one because he used more of a everyday thing as a main tearjerking point with the whole "I regret that I waste all those food". That said, it's not that I thought One Piece flashback is bad just because I don't like his writing style, I'm just not a big fan of it. But for me, the main point that really amazing about One Piece flashback is that Oda manage to connect the thread from the past to the present and future. There's those many series that had a 'flashback' that didn't had any connection to the present storyline, It's like a skip-able flashback that even if you didn't watch it you're not gonna lost track of the story kind of thing. ToG25thBaam said: I dislike her design too, but I am sure that RedRoseFring gave an explanation as to why she wears that kind of revealing outfit. Quote from Cavendish: "Who want to see a heavily armored people fighting in the arena while all of the spectator want to watch bloodshed?" There's a weight limiter to the equipment those gladiator can use, that's why most of 'em is half naked. |
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tr1ckst3r said: Mikasa said: It's quite thought provoking how people keep saying "OP Flashback is good but not the present/actually storyline"but the story itself was just as badly received (except the flashback) I'am one of those not so many One Piece fans that is not a big fans of the "Flashback". Why? Because Oda mostly use 'dead' and 'tragedy' to portray a story of said character to evoke my emotion and I'm not a big fans of those kind of writing style. The only OP flashback that I considered amazing is Sanji's one because he used more of a everyday thing as a main tearjerking point with the whole "I regret that I waste all those food". That said, it's not that I thought One Piece flashback is bad just because I don't like his writing style, I'm just not a big fan of it. But for me, the main point that really amazing about One Piece flashback is that Oda manage to connect the thread from the past to the present and future. There's those many series that had a 'flashback' that didn't had any connection to the present storyline, It's like a skip-able flashback that even if you didn't watch it you're not gonna lost track of the story kind of thing. ToG25thBaam said: I dislike her design too, but I am sure that RedRoseFring gave an explanation as to why she wears that kind of revealing outfit. Quote from Cavendish: "Who want to see a heavily armored people fighting in the arena while all of the spectator want to watch bloodshed?" There's a weight limiter to the equipment those gladiator can use, that's why most of 'em is half naked. She could wear a sweater. |
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Royalirishman said: tr1ckst3r said: It's quite thought provoking how people keep saying "OP Flashback is good but not the present/actually storyline" I'am one of those not so many One Piece fans that is not a big fans of the "Flashback". Why? Because Oda mostly use 'dead' and 'tragedy' to portray a story of said character to evoke my emotion and I'm not a big fans of those kind of writing style. The only OP flashback that I considered amazing is Sanji's one because he used more of a everyday thing as a main tearjerking point with the whole "I regret that I waste all those food". That said, it's not that I thought One Piece flashback is bad just because I don't like his writing style, I'm just not a big fan of it. But for me, the main point that really amazing about One Piece flashback is that Oda manage to connect the thread from the past to the present and future. There's those many series that had a 'flashback' that didn't had any connection to the present storyline, It's like a skip-able flashback that even if you didn't watch it you're not gonna lost track of the story kind of thing. Quote from Cavendish: "Who want to see a heavily armored people fighting in the arena while all of the spectator want to watch bloodshed?" There's a weight limiter to the equipment those gladiator can use, that's why most of 'em is half naked. She could wear a sweater. There's a chance that she hide a flying projectile weapon, that's against the rules of Colosseum. |
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