noonealive said: Oh I see what you are talking about and always wondered about that too. It seems that Jiraiya basically only taught him odama rasengan and how to dispel genjutsu during the time skip.DrGeroCreation said: Kakashi always knew how his clones worked. I'm sure he did but he didn't tell him he could train faster with them until he came back from training with Jaraiya which ultimately makes Jaraiya's training seem less significant. |
DrGeroCreationJun 13, 2014 3:31 PM
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| I'm pretty sure Jaraiya could have taught him more shit if he told him Use 1000 of your clones to help you train.. lol.. This is just a little gripe i had with the whole time skip thing. |
noonealive said: Yeah, Jiraiya could of even taught him sage mode during the time skip.I'm pretty sure Jaraiya could have taught him more shit if he told him Use 1000 of your clones to help you train.. lol.. This is just a little gripe i had with the whole time skip thing. |
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| I don't how this would be a plot hole, but one of the main purposes of the joureny with Jiraiya was for Naruto to bond with him more, and you could argue that it was the most important purpose. Let's face it, Jiraiya while made Naruto a more competent Ninja, he didn't exactly made some extensive training for him, or made him learn a lot in terms of Ninjutsu. It was them bonding, having fun, exploring the world, and sharing things with Naruto, that he never got to do with his real parents, so his god parent went on a journey with him. And about Kakashi. There was no period of time, were Kakashi trained Naruto at anything, to begin with. Because, Naruto was with Jiraiya, when he was teaching Sasuke. As for this whole thread, I can't believe people are stating some events that weren't explained clearly as plot holes or certain action of characters. I mean there is two that I know of, that are hard to argue against, and are not as arbirtarly and stupid as some characters not using some moves earlier on, but I obviously won't share them :p |
tsudecimoJun 13, 2014 3:41 PM
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DrGeroCreation said: noonealive said: Yeah, Jiraiya could of even taught him sage mode during the time skip.I'm pretty sure Jaraiya could have taught him more shit if he told him Use 1000 of your clones to help you train.. lol.. This is just a little gripe i had with the whole time skip thing. So telling him his Shadow clones help you train faster is to complicated for jaraiya to explain? Sage mode woopty doo.. After i teach you sage mode and a resegan technique i'll pass you over to Kakashi to tell you how you can train faster and make an even better resengan.. Jaraiya knows what he's doing. |
tsudecimo said: I don't how this would be a plot hole, but the one of the main purposes of the joureny was Jiraiya was for Naruto to bond with him more. Let's face it, Jiraiya while made Naruto a more competent Ninja, he didn't exactly made some extensive training for him, or made him learn a lot in terms of Ninjutsu. It was them bonding, having fun, exploring the world, and sharing things with Naruto, that he never got to do with his real parents, so his god parent went on a journey with him. And about Kakashi. There was no period of time, were Kakashi trained Naruto at anything, to begin with. Because, Naruto was with Jiraiya, when he was teaching Sasuke. I'm not referring it to as a plot hole, I'm saying the whole time skip with naruto felt lack luster when Kakashi had to teach him more shit thats all. Didn't sit right with me. |
noonealive said: I'm not referring it to as a plot hole, I'm saying the whole time skip with naruto felt lack luster when Kakashi had to teach him more shit thats all. Didn't sit right with me. Okay gotcha. I can understand that. While I didn't have a problem with the time skip, I can see why some would, especially regarding Naruto's character. |
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noonealive said: I'm pretty sure Jaraiya could have taught him more shit if he told him Use 1000 of your clones to help you train.. lol.. This is just a little gripe i had with the whole time skip thing. Naruto was extremely incompetent before the time skip. He could barely walk on water and do basic chakra control. I assume Jiraiya had to teach him basic ninjutsu first and then there's the whole thing about getting better control of Kyuubi's chakra (which was messing with Naruto's). Naruto also have better battle sense after he came back (as proven with smarter use of kage bushin) so Jiraiya probably trained him in combat experience more than having Naruto learn new ninjutsu. Naruto sucks at remembering seals so there probably isn't many conventional jutsu that he can use anyway. As for Kakashi's training, it was quite a risky method. Too much strain and the Kyuubi goes berserk, that's why Kakashi had Yamato on stand by while training Naruto (and there were times when Yamato had to strain Naruto). Jiraiya almost died when Naruto went 4-tails so I don't think he'd want to take that chance. Same thing with Senjutsu I suppose. Naruto only went to train with the frogs due to the imminent threat of Pain. If Jiraiya had been alive longer he might have taught Naruto how to use it. |
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MoeGod said: Naruto had mastered the water walk by the Sasuke fight. Remember, Jiraiya undoing Orochimaru's seal made it way easier for him. I also saw no evidence of him gaining better chakra control or using smarter use of the kage bunshins after the timeskip(actually I could probably find a couple of mistakes regarding the clones that he made). Combat experience and getting stronger is something Jiraiya should have done, but I see no evidence of it. His clones power relies on his power so making him stronger would make the clones stronger, which is a good thing as his are always easily beaten. And really? They had almost two years, you think they can't teach him some basic jutus? He remembered the summoning hand signs.Naruto was extremely incompetent before the time skip. He could barely walk on water and do basic chakra control. I assume Jiraiya had to teach him basic ninjutsu first and then there's the whole thing about getting better control of Kyuubi's chakra (which was messing with Naruto's). Naruto also have better battle sense after he came back (as proven with smarter use of kage bushin) so Jiraiya probably trained him in combat experience more than having Naruto learn new ninjutsu. Naruto sucks at remembering seals so there probably isn't many conventional jutsu that he can use anyway. MoeGod said: From what I remember the Kyuubi's seal was better before the timeskip. After is when they talked a lot about the seal weakening to the point of it being needed redone. Possibly it was Jiraiya's move in the timeskip that helped it along. In that case, Naruto should have been able to train with clones during the timeskip. Naruto in Shippuden used dozens, all they had to do was use less.As for Kakashi's training, it was quite a risky method. Too much strain and the Kyuubi goes berserk, that's why Kakashi had Yamato on stand by while training Naruto (and there were times when Yamato had to strain Naruto). Jiraiya almost died when Naruto went 4-tails so I don't think he'd want to take that chance. Same thing with Senjutsu I suppose. Naruto only went to train with the frogs due to the imminent threat of Pain. If Jiraiya had been alive longer he might have taught Naruto how to use it. |
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IntroverTurtle said: snip When Kakashi challenged Naruto for the bells the 2nd time, Naruto used his bushin to move in the air & got behind Kakashi. It's a small example but proof that Naruto has become wiser and that could only result from battle training. Even Kakashi noted that Naruto's timing is a lot better (better, not perfect). As for chakra control after the time skip not only Naruto is able to summon frogs without Kyuubi's help, he also improved his rasengan by making it a lot bigger and more powerful (which obviously require greater control) as seen when he fought Itachi. Jiraiya mentioned that remembering seals is not Naruto's style so it makes sense he doesn't teach him a lot. Kuchiyose itself only needs around 4 or 5 seals and I doubt someone like Naruto can be like Sasuke or Kakashi who can remember many seals for different jutsu. If you say basic jutsu, like what exactly? Naruto already mastered kage bushin & kuchiyose, pretty sure he can do kawarimi too. Naruto passed the academy based on mastering kage bushin alone. It didn't change the fact that he was still sloppy in just about anything. I would assume that during the 3 years Jiraiya mostly strengthen his basic ninjutsu, taught him other basic knowledge (like how to dispel genjutsu or stuffs that he likely missed in the academy), while also improving his combat sense and chakra control. It is often said that if you want to master any craft, the basic is the most important. It's also probably why Jiraiya didn't teach him elemental manipulation yet. And yeah the seals had been gradually weakening but why would Jiraiya took risk the 2nd time? it's already weak enough, it doesn't make sense to aggravate it by having Naruto train with clones. Kakashi can do it only because Yamato is there. Even when he trained using only a few bushin, Kakashi still had Yamato standing by which means it's just as risky. Plus Naruto has already matured a lot during the three years, the bushin training strained both the body and the mind. It took the older Naruto just a short time to go berserk, what do you think would happen to the younger Naruto? |
MoeGodJun 14, 2014 9:00 AM
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DrGeroCreation said: judals said: That happened in episode 362 not 363. In episode 363 Obito stopped using Kamui to fight Naruto and he and Madara were using the ten tails to attack. After that he mainly focused on fighting Kakashi in the kamui pocket dimension (this hasn't been shown in the anime yet). Obito obviously knew that Kakashi and co could counter him so he stopped using kamui to avoid attacks thus there was no need to continue using the strategy.Pretty sure Obito used kamui, kyuubi asked to take control of naruto. Then threw him inside Kamui. Obito gets almost hit by naruto, uses kamui, gets hig by Kakashi on the other side. That changes nothing, Madara was still present in 262. "Stopped using kamui", but that's after said plot hole. I know he'd realize they can use it but why did they decide to stop using it given all 3/4 reasons I listed, including smoother fight against Madara himself since they would need to worry less about obito. noonealive said: I'm pretty sure Jaraiya could have taught him more shit if he told him Use 1000 of your clones to help you train.. lol.. This is just a little gripe i had with the whole time skip thing. Let's get you ready for the imminent akatsuki attack by taking you on a journey that makes said attack more imminent and you'll have to cram your learning for the last minute... Oh and btw here's a leaf test, what's your hatsu? How the hell did naruto nor realize that knowledge of clones get into his head once they are dispersed? Seems like some instant kind of knowledge to not notice. That's a plot hole. Mod Edit: Merged duplicated posts; please use the edit button. |
sarroushJun 14, 2014 11:16 AM
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| Oh god, here we go again. judals said: Sir, u just made my day :)Oh and btw here's a leaf test, what's your hatsu? |
FragOutFire said: Why am I a Berserk fan? All I ever experience is pain. We are in the eclipse and Miura has sacrificed us |
noonealive said: Why did Kakashi take two years to tell how Naruto's shadow clones worked? Jaraiya had him for 2 years and didn't know this much? The time skip really urked me when Kakashi was still teaching him newer shit... I just found it confusing. you do realize that Tenzo (wood bender) had to assist with that shadow clone training because it weakened the seal power on Naruto's Belly right? it was way to dangerous to try without some1 who had wooden style. plus it's a training technique Kakashi thought of himself, no one else would ever dream of using it because shadow clones take ALOT of chakra. Kakshi is also a genius and Jiriya has been establish to be the "dunce" of the Sanin. makes sense that Kakashi would think of it first. seriously guys.. that was easy... that REAL plot-hole is when Naruto was battling Neji. Naruto said that the reason he couldn't graduate was because he kept failing the SHADOW clone justu. (then again, that could just be the dub's fault or Naruto being stupid) |
MoeGod said: Haha, really? Naruto was doing things like that in the first part. Using his clones to throw him using the ladder thing, boost each other up for high attacks, etc. And that was when he had no training about it and made it up himself. It's the same thing just a little different, if he needed to go training for 2 years just to learn that, then it's pretty funny. Naruto when training with Sai and Yamato made his clone disguised as Sai use the rasengan which tipped Yamato off. There's one mistake after the timeskip, I don't even think he made one like that in the first part. Naruto was doing plenty of wise tricks in the first part that easily match anything he did in that bell test with Kakashi. He's always been naturally tricky like a fox. Not to mention that bell test was stupid as hell and didn't help my perception of anyone's strength other than Sakura's. snip You may have a point with the frog but from what I understand their chakra grows a little while they're growing physically. Though tell me, has he summoned a frog since the timeskip that wasn't in a filler or while in any mode? I really can't remember any time. And yes he did make one move a little larger. Only to use it 2 times and then to make one that's 100x larger and gets used way more often in less than 6 months. Once again, 2 years to learn that. When did Jiraiya say that? Many seals, you don't need to remember many seals for all jutsu. And Naruto isn't an idiot that can only remember 5 seals without exploding. Idk all the jutsus. Nature transformation ones are considered basic. Many people in the chuunin exam used them. There are probably other general ones like the kage shuriken one(including the one konohamaru and the third hokage know), using wire on his shuriken like sasuke, etc. Jiraiya could have also taught him some of his, like his hair one, etc. Of course he was sloppy at things but that doesn't mean he can't learn. Even Tsunade and Kakashi were amazed that Jiraiya was able to teach Naruto the rasengan(which is an A class jutus), and in only a couple of weeks. And then I'd like to see where we see that he strengthened his basic ninjutusu other than making a slightly larger rasengan that he used once or twice. He taught him how to dispel genjutus? I remember that. Jiraiya taught him how to and he used it once and failed at it, he hasn't used it since. Way to go Jiraiya, you spent two years teaching him something that didn't help him at all. Yet? He had no intention to. His classmates were learning it before learning the fundamentals and they turned out fine. All this seems like excuses, we never see how his basics improve. He could have done it before he decided to try and see if Naruto could control the kyuubi. It's stupid already that Naruto never learned what they can do by chance. He was already technically using them for it when Itachi went after him in the first part. The seal weakened! Which means it used to be stronger, as he was a kid it was stronger meaning those things would be less likely to happen not to mention the power that could come out would be weaker and thus Jiraiya who's a pretty strong ninja might be able to take him down. AzuStar said: No, he wasn't able to do the basic clone jutsu(the one where they are not solid but more like afterimages). But was able to learn the kage bunshin which is a jounini level technique in less than an hour.that REAL plot-hole is when Naruto was battling Neji. Naruto said that the reason he couldn't graduate was because he kept failing the SHADOW clone justu. (then again, that could just be the dub's fault or Naruto being stupid) |
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judals said: Let's get you ready for the imminent akatsuki attack by taking you on a journey that makes said attack more imminent and you'll have to cram your learning for the last minute... Oh and btw here's a leaf test, what's your hatsu? I don't get your complain here. Naruto trained with bushins because he wanted to catch up to Sasuke's level not because Akatsuki was attacking. They didn't even know Hidan and Kakuzu were targeting him. judals said: How the hell did naruto nor realize that knowledge of clones get into his head once they are dispersed? Seems like some instant kind of knowledge to not notice. That's a plot hole. Because he's an airhead? so far he's been using it only for ganging up enemies. It's gotta be pretty hard to notice this kind of thing during battle. And for your Obito kamui "plot hole", Obito can also expel people from the pocket dimension. If Kakashi didn't come out, Obito can just expel him. Another thing is after knowing Kakashi can attack him from the other side, it doesn't make sense to keep using his kamui phase-through technique, which would render Kakashi staying there useless. Kamui is pretty much useless at this point. |
 Oppai is love, oppai is life |
AzuStar said: you do realize that Tenzo (wood bender) had to assist with that shadow clone training because it weakened the seal power on Naruto's Belly right? it was way to dangerous to try without some1 who had wooden style. plus it's a training technique Kakashi thought of himself, no one else would ever dream of using it because shadow clones take ALOT of chakra. Kakshi is also a genius and Jiriya has been establish to be the "dunce" of the Sanin. makes sense that Kakashi would think of it first. seriously guys.. that was easy... that REAL plot-hole is when Naruto was battling Neji. Naruto said that the reason he couldn't graduate was because he kept failing the SHADOW clone justu. (then again, that could just be the dub's fault or Naruto being stupid) It doesn't make sense how he never noticed his clones gave Knowledge till Kakashi had to tell him about it. Yeah sure it can weaken his seal, but you have to realise what kind of training he was doing. If it was just some little ninjutsu training like walking on water then it wouldn't be a problem whatsoever. He could just use 3 or 4 clones instead of hundreds. Knowing this about shadow clones seems like a very basic detail that could have been brought up much sooner. |
IntroverTurtle said: MoeGod said: double snip snip don't know what MoeG said so i'm lost on half of you post. but i will try and answer some of your questions. firstly, yes most of the time when Naruto was training with Jiriya, he WAS strengthening his Taijustu and Ninjustu. this shines through when we see him and Sakura vs Kakashi as well as almost every other fight naruto is in. see, on top of have better combat he actually fine tunes his "shadow clone tajustu" in the time skip. You should notice that before the time skip, what Naruto mainly used his shadow clones in basic taijustu (meaning excluding rasengan) for were either 1. lets all pounce on the enemy 2. Naruto barrage or 3. that one time he used his clones as fighting rope against sasuke AFTER the time jump, you will notice that he has really fine tuned his craft. He plans where he will summon each clone for the next attack to pull of great combos and corner the enemy, he doesn't just poof 5-20 clones up for a dog pile anymore, he rarely ever poofs more than 3 at a time now (or at least in the beginning of Shippuden) because that's all he needs for his plan at that time, whether its defending, attacking or setting up for a rasengan. and of course, being able to focus exactly where your clone pop up while in battle is strengthening your ninjustu too. next, Naruto... he really does suck at Chakra control. yes he did technically master the rasengan when he was so young but the way he did it is that he basically called up another person to do half the work. he really can't learn very easily and jiriya isn't the best teacher. Jiriya probably thought it was a better idea to focus on the things he already had down (like shadow clone and Rasengan) and upgrade/incorporate them more into Naruto's own style. teaching him a new justu probably wasn't that feasible since it would have to be a very useful one to handle the akatsuki. In the time frame they had, they would have to devote alot of time to mastering a strong justu, which would take away from strengthening Naruto's taijustu and other techniques he already knows. plus, it seems Jiriya's most effective Justus are Toad based. Naruto could barely summon a frog at the time so i don't think he was close to learning how to turn a building into a Toad's belly. in fact, he never really mastered the summoning justu before the time skip. he always needed to call upon the 9 tails for help. also, before the time-skip, Naruto barely won any battles by himself(at least canon wise). usually he would at least need the 9 tail's chakra. so he wasn't even THAT strong to being with. Naruto just... sucks at learning and it was best to improve on things he already knew by heart. |
i know a clone once went on a 2 tails rampage and left a huge scar on Jiriya, almost killing him. and i'm pretty sure it was because Naruto and his clone were at least in fatigue from training. just not sure if they were using the clone speed up training technique or not but it would be a pretty good reason not to. and yes, this tidbit about how you receive everything your shadow clone experienced is a good thing to know but, don't you think and Jiriya (and everyone who knew about the shadow clone justu) would assume Naruto already knew that? and then Kakashi explained it to Naruto when he realized Naruto didn't know. |
OppaiMan said: judals said: Let's get you ready for the imminent akatsuki attack by taking you on a journey that makes said attack more imminent and you'll have to cram your learning for the last minute... Oh and btw here's a leaf test, what's your hatsu? I don't get your complain here. Naruto trained with bushins because he wanted to catch up to Sasuke's level not because Akatsuki was attacking. They didn't even know Hidan and Kakuzu were targeting him. judals said: How the hell did naruto nor realize that knowledge of clones get into his head once they are dispersed? Seems like some instant kind of knowledge to not notice. That's a plot hole. Because he's an airhead? so far he's been using it only for ganging up enemies. It's gotta be pretty hard to notice this kind of thing during battle. And for your Obito kamui "plot hole", Obito can also expel people from the pocket dimension. If Kakashi didn't come out, Obito can just expel him. Another thing is after knowing Kakashi can attack him from the other side, it doesn't make sense to keep using his kamui phase-through technique, which would render Kakashi staying there useless. Kamui is pretty much useless at this point. No no, that wont work like that, dozens of clones going pouf would be literally a mind f*** here. Obito can dispel others, but Kakashi also 'owns' the dimension and can go in whenever. |
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IntroverTurtle said: snip That's why Kakashi said his timing is better and that's also why I highlighted the word "better" not perfect. Naruto being Naruto is still not a bright guy who would realize that him using rasengan would expose him. The bell test was also just to see how much they changed. While it wasn't enough to judge their overall strength, it was good enough to see how much they've progressed. My memory is a bit hazy for the frog part, iirc he summoned little gamakichi (this may be in the anime though). It's not much of an improvement but before that he can only summon tadpole. As for Rasengan, while he was able to use an imperfect one within one week improving it might be a different matter entirely. Not only he has to control bigger amount of chakra, it also took more concentration to maintain the shape manipulation. Naruto's chakra control was sloppy, before the time skip he tend to use either more chakra than necessary or not enough chakra. Improving his control and then applying it to rasengan within 3 years is not that far-fetched. We don't see how his training went but if we assume Jiraiya taught him everything from the basic, it's not impossible that he had only learned to improve the rasengan within the 2nd or 3rd year. What I meant by many seals was if you learn 5 jutsus then you need to remember 5 sequences of seals. Jiraiya mentioned that Naruto doesn't have to worry about seals when he first started teaching rasengan because his strength is in his chakra. Nature transformation is basic but combining it with shape manipulation is not. Even genius like Sasuke took quite a while to master the basic of chidori. If we're talking about basic elemental jutsu like shapeless katon, doton, or its variants then it'll all come back to having to use seals, something that Jiraiya said not necessary for Naruto. Those that are more advanced like Kakuzu's wind attack would surely require more training while those like Temari needs a giant ass fan to execute one. The shuriken bushin is probably the Sarutobi clan unique jutsu and it's not like Jiraiya ever used it. Using wire with shuriken was merely Sasuke's ingeniousness. The hair jutsu is probably unique to Jiraiya since you probably need to have a hair like him. There's also another hitch, Naruto's element is wind while Jiraiya predominantly uses fire and earth technique so Jiraiya won't be the best person to teach Naruto advanced wind jutsu. The one that Kakashi taught was merely combining rasengan with Naruto's wind and as explained above, it requires an extra ordinary method to use. Other than that Jiraiya's techniques mostly use hand-seals and his knowledge about sealing technique (using scrolls etc) is most likely too advanced for Naruto at that time. Honestly there's probably not a lot of jutsu Jiraiya can teach to Naruto. As for the genjutsu, how many people do you think can dispel Itachi's genjutsu? even a jonin like Kurenai can't. Also what do you mean we never see how his basic improved? isn't better chakra control and better timing considered the basic? You forgot Jiraiya almost died when he tampered with Naruto's seals and he went 4-tails. Even if he could take him down if he wants to, he probably needs to kill Naruto to do so. Regardless of the kyuubi seal state, training with clones is too risky. |
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judals said: No no, that wont work like that, dozens of clones going pouf would be literally a mind f*** here. Those clones were basically doing the same thing so it's a somewhat similar experience. Most of them were also dispelled too fast (Kimimaro & Gaara fight for example) to take on a lot of differing experience. In the midst of battle it would be hard to notice that kind of thing or even if Naruto felt a slight difference, he's probably not smart enough to figure it out. It might be a different story if Naruto was doing something like Yamato tailing Orochimaru with the original and the clone doing vastly different things. judals said: Obito can dispel others, but Kakashi also 'owns' the dimension and can go in whenever. Can you imagine how pointless that would be? - Kakashi goes in - Obito expels - Repeat for eternity There's also the problem with stopping Obito who's a very stubborn guy (which you would see soon). Kakashi would have to kill him and he obviously doesn't want to do that. |
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| Someone with too much thought may not notice, but the "airhead" would. It's impossible for the clones to experience the same thing. Obito cant dispell one who also possesses the same kamui. He'd not have himself hit in tbe first place. |
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judals said: Someone with too much thought may not notice, but the "airhead" would. It's impossible for the clones to experience the same thing. Obito cant dispell one who also possesses the same kamui. He'd not have himself hit in tbe first place. You're twisting the word airhead. Airhead = stupid = absent-minded. When was it mentioned that Obito can't expel someone with the same kamui? I certainly don't remember it ever being mentioned in the manga.. And even if that was true, it'd be stupid to keep using kamui when he knows Kakashi can hurt him from the inside. Kakashi can wait for eternity in the dimension but if Obito doesn't teleport part of his body inside, there's nothing to hit. |
OppaiManJun 14, 2014 11:31 AM
Oppai is love, oppai is life |
MoeGod said: So he trained for 2 years for his timing to be a little better, holy fuck that sounds stupid. Before the timeskip Naruto did things to make his disguise better like with Kiba and Neji. Naruto is not that stupid that he wouldn't realize that. And that test was only good to see how Sakura progressed, the whole thing was pretty stupid. I'm sure him mouthing out a spoiler to a book really showed how he progressed.snip He was able to summon Gamakichi and Gamatatsu while in the first part of Naruto. Show me where he summoned or at least tell me near where he summoned a frog after the timeskip. I said a couple of weeks, I'm talking about from when he started learning it until he used it completed on Kabuto, that was a couple of weeks. I never said ONE WEEK. He learned an A class technique in a couple of weeks(which this jutsu is said to have been at the highest degree of shape manipulation), he should have been able to at least learn a couple of D or C class techniques in almost 3 years. Holy fuck again, 2 years to improve his chakra control to make a larger rasengan. And then a couple of months to make a 100x larger one, Jiraiya really used his time wisely. And once again, we see no proof of him improving other than this slightly larger rasengan that he used once that took 2 years of training to do. That's ridiculous. Him saying he doesn't have to worry about seals =/= he saying they're not his style or he's not good at them. Not using seals is easier for everyone. Plus there are jutsus that doesn't need that many seals, though I doubt he would have too much trouble with them. Sasuke took like a month to learn his second nature transformation which Kakashi said was harder, Sasuke really learned fire manipulation to the point of a giant fireball when he was like 5. Naruto during the timeskip had like 3 years to at least learn a couple of basic techniques or to enforce his nature manipulation basics like enforcing a kunai with wind chakra. I don't know where you're getting this seal thing. He's able to summon fine, I don't think Naruto is so stupid that he can't remember a couple of seals for some jutsus. In that case Jiraiya should have been working on his memory or gave him instruction notes. Here's a couple that only have one sign(one is just putting your hands together though it was Nagatos so I don't know if Naruto could use it the same). http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wind_Release:_Violent_Wind_Palm http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wind_Release:_Pressure_Damage one that uses the same amount of seals as summoning. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Wind_Release:_Great_Breakthrough Besides there's probably smaller techniques, we're not shown every jutsu in the story(especially as there were not many wind chakra users). He had time for training, he could have learned a smaller version of Kakuzu's. Anything's better than spending 3 years making a slightly larger rasengan, working on his kage bunshin timing, and failing how to deal with genjutsu. I never said ANYTHING about advanced wind jutsu. I said BASIC nature transformation(cutting the leaf, enforcing the kunai, etc). Kakashi taught him that and he can't use wind. He could have gotten a freaking book about wind ninjutsu, he had 3 years. Though do keep in mind he did help the orphans who knew nothing about nijutsu before and both Nagato and Konan knew wind chakra manipulation so obviously he can teach people. Once again your operating under the assumption that Naruto is so stupid he can't learn a single hand sign. Even then, then he should have worked on something that didn't need them. Which he didn't or at least well. Irrelevant. You can say he improved his genjutsu all you want, but if there's nothing proving that then what good is it? If it doesn't help him then how good is it? Kishimoto can come out and say Naruto learned his times tables up to 1,000,000 and learned how to weave baskets and sew clothing over the timeskip. How does that prove he spent his 3 years well if it's something he'll never use? How does that help him with the Akatsuki coming to kill him in 3 years? Yes improving chakra control and timing is considered part of the basic skills, and even then he improved those minimally. After he tampered with his seal, not before. Then train normally, anything's better than spending 3 years making a slightly larger rasengan, working on his kage bunshin timing, and failing how to deal with genjutsu. |
IntroverTurtleJun 14, 2014 12:16 PM
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IntroverTurtle said: snip I'm not sure what do you expect him to learn after 3 years. Even Sasuke has only shown one new jutsu (Raijin) after the time skip and other than that he's mostly using his sharingan and curse mark. If there's one thing that improved drasticallly it's clearly his taijutsu & kenjutsu skill, not much difference than Naruto then. I don't know why you keep ignoring the fact that even Kakashi noted that Naruto's movement is better and only picked certain parts where it's clearly a case by case basis. Naruto is very spontaneous and made up his strategy in the midst of battle. While he may not be that stupid, he's also not that smart. It's not be unthinkable for him to overlook the fact that rasengan blew his disguise. Actually it's one of those things where you could say "that's so Naruto". That's why I'm asking you what exactly is this D or C class jutsu you're talking about? one that would be actually as useful as an A rank jutsu like rasengan? I already pointed out that a lot of your examples are either specialized jutsu or just plain creativity. Is there even any point for Naruto to learn any of these weaker jutsu? Actually a lot of stronger ninja in Naruto rarely ever use what would seem like lower grade jutsu. As far as Jiraiya is concerned, his jutsu mainly revolves around toads, taijutsu, and variants of Rasengan. Minato's technique is all Rasengan and thunder god. Even the kages simply kept spamming their unique jutsu. Easy for you to say it years "only" to make larger rasengan but you don't actually know the process. It might be a lot harder than you think. You also can't compare Sasuke and Naruto, one is one-of-a-kind genius, the other is a dunce who's really bad at learning unless he experience it with his body. An improvement is an improvement. You're talking as if Naruto doesn't learn anything in the 3 years when it was clear that he had some progress and is a lot stronger than he was in part 1. As if it wasn't clear enough, the third databook which was released after the time skip also clearly showed that Naruto's stats have gone up considerably especially his taijutsu and stamina. Obviously Jiraiya thought that it's better for Naruto to just focus on chakra-based technique instead of hand-seals. You can argue all you want about Naruto being able to pull it off (and he might) but the fact remains that in Jiraiya's judgement it's better to have him focus on something else and not teach him jutsu that require hand-seals. Different stroke for different people. Asuma's kunai was special http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chakra_Blades so it's not like Naruto can just imbue any kunai. It seems that you've also missed my point from the beginning. It is my believe that Jiraiya literally taught Naruto everything back from the basic. It was clear that Naruto had very poor grasp on the concept of chakra as shown when he learned kuchiyose the first time. Let's say the first year to relearn all the basic, the 2nd year maybe to improve his taijutsu and combat experience, that leaves only the 3rd year to improve his ninjutsu. Of course this is all hypothetical but the time allocation is most likely not just focused on learning new jutsu and it makes more sense for Jiraiya to focus on what Naruto can do instead of jamming him with a bunch jutsu that he isn't likely to use. This is also probably why Jiraiya didn't teach him nature transformation because he doesn't have any use for it. What's the point of teaching it to Naruto when (I reiterate) it's Jiraiya's believe that Naruto doesn't need to learn hand-seals (even the simple ones)?? Heck, Naruto didn't even bother to learn ANY wind jutsu AFTER learning nature transformation and Kakashi or any of the jonins didn't bother to teach him. Oh and I don't think Naruto ever learned genjutsu that deeply. Jiraiya only taught him how to dispel it and it just so happened that he has to use it against the best genjutsu caster in the series. I mean seriously, what do you expect? I would be surprised if he can dispel Itachi's genjutsu after training for only a short time. This is Itachi freaking Uchiha we're talking about. His method of dispelling genjutsu is pretty basic and it might have worked against normal shinobi. In all fairness training three years would never be enough to defeat any Akatsuki members but if you're in Jiraiya's position what would you do? leave the hapless Naruto in his own or train him as much as possible so that he stand at least a little chance against them? take Kakuzu battle for example, the old Naruto would just create as many bushins as possible and attack him but thanks to the training he can use the bushins more effectively. Yeah after he tampered his seal then what? after that he obviously needed to reinforce the weakening seal even if it's only temporary. Are you trying to say that after Naruto went 4-tails then he's stronger and can learn more jutsu? it doesn't work that way because Naruto CAN'T control Kyuubi's chakra that well just yet. I already said one wrong move and he goes berserk. |
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OppaiMan said: judals said: Someone with too much thought may not notice, but the "airhead" would. It's impossible for the clones to experience the same thing. Obito cant dispell one who also possesses the same kamui. He'd not have himself hit in tbe first place. You're twisting the word airhead. Airhead = stupid = absent-minded. When was it mentioned that Obito can't expel someone with the same kamui? I certainly don't remember it ever being mentioned in the manga.. And even if that was true, it'd be stupid to keep using kamui when he knows Kakashi can hurt him from the inside. Kakashi can wait for eternity in the dimension but if Obito doesn't teleport part of his body inside, there's nothing to hit. When they decided to show the plot twist that kakashi and obito share the same one. Naruto being airhead or whatever doesnt mean he is mentally challenged. That's no excuse. New plot hole 365: if orochimaru could do that all along, why did he not do it on his own arms back during the attack? |
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judals said: When they decided to show the plot twist that kakashi and obito share the same one. Naruto being airhead or whatever doesnt mean he is mentally challenged. That's no excuse. New plot hole 365: if orochimaru could do that all along, why did he not do it on his own arms back during the attack? Still doesn't change the fact that it'd be pretty stupid for Obito to keep using Kamui. His phase-through technique become obsolete the moment Kakashi hit him from the other side. Not mentally challenged but being an airhead does open up the possibility of him missing all these stuffs especially when he barely experienced it in the midst of battle when everything is so frantic. As for Orochimaru here's a nice theory http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=332991 |
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judals said: New plot hole 365: if orochimaru could do that all along, why did he not do it on his own arms back during the attack? Everything must be spoon fed to ya, huh?  Notice how Sasuke has his Sharingan activated. Jeez, you might want to think for more than a second before you claim something as a plot hole, you retard. |
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Aresnalfan said: judals said: New plot hole 365: if orochimaru could do that all along, why did he not do it on his own arms back during the attack? Everything must be spoon fed to ya, huh? Notice how Sasuke has his Sharingan activated. Jeez, you might want to think for more than a second before you claim something as a plot hole, you retard. And Orochimaru, who sasuke desperately sought the help of, never bothered to have him use it? The knowledge It's not like infiltrating the village is easy, sound 5, itachi and Kisame never did it, right? But forget all that, why not edo tensei an uchiha to do it? An immortal. This seems like a priority for a man like him with no arms, especially since he had Kabuto under him who happened to have a certain uchiha. Plot hole is: he never actually knew of his own scroll's knowledge of how to restore the sealed. So he ran frantically like a girl all over to find tsunade/other shit to heal. |
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| You must have shits for brains, kid. Reading your posts in this thread, you just want to stir up shit. The fact of the matter is, this series has no plot holes. How the fuck even cares about whether or not the village can be infiltrated easily. The problem was in the secret password to lift it, and the Sharingan necessary to go with it. Orochimaru had neither of those. At the time of Orochimaru being defeated by Sasuke and then Itachi, they obviously didn't have any way to bring back Madara. That was all Kabuto's doing after those events, were he researched, and made all his future plans, and became a sage. And if you are implying for Itachi, then why would Kabuto want to help Orochimaru in the first place, who is weakened and only lives in small parts inside the curse marks. The rest of your retarded questions are answered in the link someone already posted, but you probably read it, and wanted to think of something to make it a plot hole. Tragic. http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=332991 read this and gtfo |
Avant_Jun 14, 2014 3:21 PM
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MoeGod said: I was looking for him to be noticeably stronger. First of all Sasuke's base level of strength increased a lot. He was able to take on Itachi, Deidara, Orochimaru, etc and beat them. Naruto faced an armless Deidara and let him get away, only beat Kakuzu after seeing how weak he was against Sasuke and learned the rasen shuriken. That's my main part.snip Sasuke learned better nature manipulation like with his sword when he's able to make it unblockable by anyone who's not lightning release and break through the fourth raikage's armor, learned how to master his curse mark, the chidori nagashi which is a very versatile technique, learned how to use the chidori many times in a day, he learned how to summon two different large animals(something we haven't seen Naruto able to do without Kurama), he uses the shurikens on a wire jutsu, he now uses space jutsu to keep all of his tools on his wrist, learned how to use his sharingan better(including genjutsu which we didn't see him use before the timeskip), chidori senbon, chidori sharp spear, and lets not forget Kirin. He may have said that his movement got better but I didn't see anything, it actually looked like Kakashi got slower. If they were trying to show that Naruto got stronger, then they did horribly. They only beat him through cheap tricks. The only one who noticeably got stronger was Sakura and that's because she is now an experienced medical ninja and could split the ground with her fist. I never said it wasn't unthinkable. I was pointing out a mistake he made. You pointed out how he used the clones in a better way, I pointed out where he didn't. In case you didn't notice I wasn't trying to prove Naruto was smart when I brought that up. And what about the frog summoning? Are you admitting he hasn't done it since the timeskip? All jutsus can be useful. I'm talking about supplementing his large jutsus with small ones, it's common sense. You can't just keep on throwing the big punches, you have to throw in jabs to put them off their balance. Sometimes a rasengan or other large rasengan variant wouldn't fit the situation, like when he's in a position where he can't make a clone, long distances, while using taijutsu, he's going against nature transformation, etc. It's called versatility, part of the reason why Sasuke is so strong. Uses chidori normally, when they are far off or small enemies he uses chidori senbon, can extend his reach using chidori spear for a farther attack that needs more power than the senbon, cut swords by running electricity through his sword, can shock his own body if he needs to, etc. Naruto had more of that in the first part, after he just let the kyuubi take over and spammed large attacks. That's because that's a lot of versatility and his skill is enough, he has many frog jutsus that each have their own purpose, he has his body ones like with his hair that can be used for defense or offense, he can make barrier, he used both fire and earth jutsus, he was more proficient with the rasengans and could use it with one hand, he had sage mode, etc. I'm not saying Naruto should know every jutsu but all he really knows and uses is kage bunshin and the rasengan. Minato was versatile enough too and we only saw like two fights of his. The kages had no need not to in that fight, Danzo was very versatile in the Sasuke fight. So are you saying that it's harder to make a rasengan that is 2x bigger than the normal in 3 years than it is to make one that is 300x larger than the normal one in a couple of months? Most of his power growth was after the timeskip, what's the point in even having the timeskip. Barely learns anything and barely gets any stronger is my point, I always admitted that he learned the new rasengan. The purpose of him going traveling was to prepare for when the Akatsuki go after him, so he can protect himself. That's why he even learned the rasengan in the first place. Those are things that go up as you get older, he was a child before, now he's a teen. Even a regular human kid's stats will grow. Or it was just a crappy move on Kishi's part. How was it better if he barely got any stronger? You can run chakra through ANYTHING, Naruto did it with a normal kunai so did asuma in the anime, Sasuke uses it in his blade and in a shuriken, Bee used it on his blades and on that pencil he threw at Kisame, Darui used it on his sword and some shuriken, Omoi used it on his blade to disable Deidara, Kakuzu used it on his arms, Danzo uses it on a kunai and shuriken, the kiba swords with lightning chakra, etc. "Asuma Sarutobi carried special Chakra Blades that were fabricated from a material that absorbed chakra easier" easier is the key word. http://naruto.wikia.com/wiki/Chakra_flow Kuchiyose is a not so easy technique, he's the only one who knew it in his class. And show me where he used it better, show me where he did the same thing(kuchiyose) after the timeskip. Before the timeskip Naruto had learned an A class technique. He used the highest degree of shape manipulation and he did it in a few weeks. The kage bunshin too is a jounin level technique, yet he learned it in like less than an hour. Naruto was able to summon Gama oyabun without using kyuubi chakra during the gaara fight which was before the timeskip. So I don't see how he needed too much help with the basics. Very hypothetical and that is too much time for all of them. You really think he would use that much time for each thing? It took him a couple of weeks to learn the rasengan but a whole year to make it a little bigger and then less than 6 months to make it 300x bigger? And what results did that bring? And I never said jamming, learning like 2 - 5 new jutsus wouldn't kill him. You keep on talking about Jiraiya's belief but you have no proof of that, just that he didn't try to teach him handsigns thus he must have thought he could never do it. Because nature manipulation is basic in the Naruto world. And he eventually learned it fine. Yeah that was also a shit move on Kishi's part, my point is that he could have during the timeskip. Naruto can learn it. At that time though they were focusing on that one strong move, S class move or else Tsuande woulnd't let him fight Kakuzu and Hidan, then after beatin Kakuzu it's the news of Sasuke then they go for him, then Jiraiya, then he goes to Myoboku, then fights pain, then goes to iron country, then back to konoha, then to the island, etc. He didn't have the time. They had the time in the 3 years they had. He had all that time to train, even Sakura and the rest did missions. Yeah, just so happened. That's why it's bullshit. Teach him something he'll never use, he totally got stronger didn't he. That's why I don't really count it, it never applied after he learned it. Yet it took Kakashi and Yamato like a week to help him learn a jutsu that could kill them. Three years of training for Sasuke was enough, same with Shikamaru, and Sakura. Naruto dilly dallied during his training, that's all I can think when BEFORE and AFTER the timeskip he was learning jutsus faster and getting stronger faster. And it was Kakashi's training(not Jiraiya's) that helped him use his clones better against Kakuzu(which he should have noticed earlier anyways). And before the timeskip, like against Gaara, Kiba, Neji, and the water ninjas, he used his clones in smart ways that allowed him and his team to beat them. After he tampered with his seal it was weaker and thus the kyuubi was stronger, duh. Before the timeskip I think Jiraiya could have handled that berserk Naruto, after the timeskip is where the skin melting and chakra bombs came in. Oh my gosh, using the power of the kyuubi, you're pretty hilarious in the bad sort of way. |
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IntroverTurtle said: snip You also forgot that Kakashi (or was it Yamato?) implied Sasuke took drugs and sort of experimented on by Kabuto. Once again you can't compare the two because the capability of learning is different for both. Sasuke also has already learned nature manipulation before going to Oro and no matter how you try to glorify it, his technique is pretty much just variations of chidori just like Naruto with rasengan. The others were really just improvement of things Sasuke can already do. Sasuke HAS ALWAYS been a better learner and more versatile than Naruto. Summoning more animals? in case you haven't noticed Sasuke also already has better chakra control than Naruto before the time skip. He's pretty much better at any aspect so you can consider that as a massive head start, especially considering Naruto can't even do basic stuffs properly. Naruto can store his tools on a scroll (like almost everyone including Hashirama did) and it still accomplish the same thing. As for frog summoning I already told you I can't remember if it's canon or not but he did summon it during the war, then again it was during kyuubi mode so whether he can do it on his own remains to be seen. It still doesn't change the fact that he had better control of his chakra (again proven by his larger rasengan). Itachi also went easy against him, Sasuke admitted that Oro was too weakened and he didn't really "defeat" him because the sharingan pretty much took care of it, Deidara and Sasuke was pretty much a draw with both exhausting chakra until Deidara committed suicide. Deidara also only ran from Naruto and didn't even try to confront him so whether Naruto can defeat Deidara remains to be seen. Just because you can't see it doesn't mean that it's true. Kakashi got slower? that's also your judgement. To be fair it's hard to judge this kind of thing from still pictures or compare how much they improve but one thing you can see for sure is Naruto's movement & his use of bushin is far more efficient than befor where he just rushed at everything most of the time. As for that 300x bigger, you forgot he was using senjutsu at that time. "Even a regular human kid's stats will grow" Now this is bullshit, if you learn martial arts for 2 years and then stop training you're not gonna get better after 3 years of inactivity. Your body might be bigger but your physical strength might wane and your speed decreases. The stats increase clearly refers to Naruto's overall skill in taijutsu while the stamina indicates his chakra, which means he can already regulate his and Kyuubi's chakra better than before. He can't do that without training. See we can all argue what he did during the training and it'll get nowhere. You think it's too much time to reinforce the basic and everything but in my opinion if I was a teacher I would spend more time covering the basic before anything else. In this case pretty much redoing his academy days. Yeah he did a commendable job learning Kage Bushin and (IMPERFECT) rasengan but those are under extreme pressure and time limit, at the same time he ALSO can't run on the trees properly without falling and trying many times (this is after he learned Kage Bushin). Jiraiya could probably cram him with more jutsu but he didn't because teaching Naruto the basics would make Naruto's ability to learn new technique FAR greater. You mentioned that his progress is mostly after the time skip, yes.. thanks to Jiraiya reinforcing Naruto's basic so he can have better grasp of everything else. He didn't summon Gamabunta without Kyuubi's help, he even said his chakra were already depleted and it has been shown that whenever threatened he can use Kyuubi's chakra as emergency. Before that he already used a tajuu kage bushin so Kyuubi's chakra was already leaking left and right. I have no proof of that? he fucking said it himself, man. Fine let's not take it as his belief, he said that one sentence and then proceeded not to teach Naruto further hand-seals. Is that not proof enough for you? Naruto can but he didn't. I have also already pointed out that Naruto didn't bother to learn any simple wind jutsu AFTER he learned manipulation, how is that not proof enough that he doesn't like learning hand-seals? obviously Jiraiya already saw this and didn't bother to teach him. Jiraiya also said that Kyuubi is Naruto's greatest weapon so he should focus on jutsu that utilizes it, that's why he taught him Kuchiyose and not other jutsu. Why didn't Jiraiya teach him nature manipulation then? most likely because he doesn't see it as necessary. While it's sort of a basic technique, not everyone learned it. Among the genin I think only Sasuke and Temari ever used elemental attack/technique. The rest of them use specialized jutsu that utilizes Yin and Yang chakra (exactly like Naruto with Rasengan). You were talking as if every genin can use nature manipulation.Even Kakashi only taught him because he had thought of Naruto completing what Minato was trying to do. Again it's not unthinkable that Jiraiya hadn't thought of that or maybe he just wasn't aware of what Minato was trying to do. Tsunade didn't let him go because it was risky, didn't Danzo warn her not to let Naruto out of the village? it's not a matter of believing whether Naruto can or can't defeat Kakuzu, it's a matter of taking risks that Naruto somehow lose and got captured. If Naruto hadn't learned rashen shuriken, he would just use his big ball rasengan and destroy Kakuzu's mask one by one like Kakashi. You also forgot that senjutsu (at that time) is almost inapplicable because Kyuubi interfere with frogs. It's not unthinkable that Jiraiya already predicted this and since he himself needed to fuse with them to use Sage Mode, Jiraiya may have thought that Naruto wouldn't be able to do it without fusing as well. Naruto learning sage mode was merely an emergency training taken due to an imminent threat. As you can see even then it wasn't perfect because his transformation was limited to 5 minutes and he had to prepare several clones with sage mode. If Jiraiya hadn't been killed, Naruto may not have learned it until much later. It is also possible that Jiraiya planned to teach him that as soon as Naruto master the Kyuubi, obviously things didn't go as he planned. Dispelling genjutsu is also just basic knowledge. BASIC. How would Jiraiya predict Naruto won't ever use it? in the future he might have come up against genjutsu user that's not Itachi and Naruto would be fucked if he doesn't have the slightest idea how to counter it. Can you seriously blame Jiraiya for teaching him that? just because it has never been shown doesn't mean it won't even be useful. If you were Jiraiya, would you teach him? Here we go again, back to Kakashi training. Which part of needing YAMATO to do that escaped you? not to mention it's also a faster and riskier method? and really on those fights all Naruto did was SPAM his bushins. He has always had some creative ways to use it but again I emphasize that after the time skip, his timing is better than before. He didn't turn from "not creative" to "creative". And I really don't get your point in the last paragraph. So the Kyuubi was getting stronger, so what? it doesn't mean anything except Naruto is more prone to becoming berserk and more dangerous. It's also not like he can freely use Kyuubi's chakra except under special circumstances, in this regard the seal getting weaker and Kyuubi getting stronger accomplished nothing. |
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IntroverTurtle said: He was able to take on Itachi, Deidara, Orochimaru, etc and beat them. Not gonna argue with the fact that he beat Deidara and Orochimaru, but he did not defeat Itachi. Don't know if you recall correctly enough, but Sasuke was on the ropes for most of that fight even though Itachi was a sick and slowly dying man. He even backed him up into a corner at the end. But the purpose of the fight was for Sasuke to be able to cleanse the Uchiha name, by killing the 'one who supposedly slaughtered the clan in cold blood'. Otherwise, things would have been awfully short, with the one dead on the ground being the younger brother. Back then, the gap in power between the two was immense, even though Sasuke had made massive progress in the Shinobi arts. Itachi and Jiraiya are on the same level, or were I should say, and both Naruto and Sasuke were below them by leagues. They've probably long surpassed those two by now though. |
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Aresnalfan said: You must have shits for brains, kid. Reading your posts in this thread, you just want to stir up shit. The fact of the matter is, this series has no plot holes. How the fuck even cares about whether or not the village can be infiltrated easily. The problem was in the secret password to lift it, and the Sharingan necessary to go with it. Orochimaru had neither of those. At the time of Orochimaru being defeated by Sasuke and then Itachi, they obviously didn't have any way to bring back Madara. That was all Kabuto's doing after those events, were he researched, and made all his future plans, and became a sage. And if you are implying for Itachi, then why would Kabuto want to help Orochimaru in the first place, who is weakened and only lives in small parts inside the curse marks. The rest of your retarded questions are answered in the link someone already posted, but you probably read it, and wanted to think of something to make it a plot hole. Tragic. http://narutobase.net/forums/showthread.php?t=332991 read this and gtfo Well the link you sent proved it, he knew of the method, but only required the manpower, which he never bothered with because the plan of cutting his stomach itself did not exist till later. So why did he never bother to do it before? To summon whatever (powerful) uchiha he could? The scroll was also found in his hideout post mortem so he had it in his possession before dying in the itachi battle, but decided it should just be there for giggles. Wait you need to be a sage to do any of this? Nah. |
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Ryukatsuka said: IntroverTurtle said: He was able to take on Itachi, Deidara, Orochimaru, etc and beat them. Not gonna argue with the fact that he beat Deidara and Orochimaru, but he did not defeat Itachi. Don't know if you recall correctly enough, but Sasuke was on the ropes for most of that fight even though Itachi was a sick and slowly dying man. He even backed him up into a corner at the end. But the purpose of the fight was for Sasuke to be able to cleanse the Uchiha name, by killing the 'one who supposedly slaughtered the clan in cold blood'. Otherwise, things would have been awfully short, with the one dead on the ground being the younger brother. Back then, the gap in power between the two was immense, even though Sasuke had made massive progress in the Shinobi arts. Itachi and Jiraiya are on the same level, or were I should say, and both Naruto and Sasuke were below them by leagues. They've probably long surpassed those two by now though. well he didn't really defeat Deidara, since he blew himself up. and Orochimaru was at his weakest at the time Sasuke beat him too. |
judals said: Well the link you sent proved it, he knew of the method, but only required the manpower, which he never bothered with because the plan of cutting his stomach itself did not exist till later. So why did he never bother to do it before? To summon whatever (powerful) uchiha he could? The scroll was also found in his hideout post mortem so he had it in his possession before dying in the itachi battle, but decided it should just be there for giggles. Wait you need to be a sage to do any of this? Nah. That's why AresnalFan said don't be a retard and read properly. You missed the part where Orochimaru can only transfer bodies once every three years. You also forgot Orochimaru's obsession with obtaining Sasuke's body. That theory also missed one thing  Orochimaru noted that he himself has to become the sacrifice, this is probably necessary because it's his arm that he wants to retrieve. His plan was to use Sasuke's body all along, which is another reason why he waited 3 sweet years until Sasuke was strong enough. Obviously Sasuke already betrayed him before he could do that. If that wasn't clear enough this is pretty much Oro's plan: - Train Sasuke until he has stronger body while waiting for the 3 years time limit to pass - Go to the shrine - Wear the mask and sacrifice his old, dying body (who was really2 sick as shown when Sasuke attacked him) - Possess Sasuke The scroll was probably obtained sometime during the Tsunade search arc or after shortly that, Orochimaru said there's another method to heal his arms but never explained what. It implied that he either knew or had some sort of idea about another method. Why didn't he do it sooner then? obviously because he DIDN'T have Sasuke with him yet at that time. It all comes back to him wanting to possess Sasuke's body. Had the sound five brought Sasuke back in time, Orochimaru would've performed the ritual much sooner but they didn't, Oro had to possess another body and wait 3 more years to do what he wants to do. That's why he didn't just summon any edo tensei Uchiha because there'd be no point if he can't transfer body, he'll just kill himself by slicing his belly. |
Oppai is love, oppai is life |
AzuStar said: Ryukatsuka said: Not gonna argue with the fact that he beat Deidara and Orochimaru, but he did not defeat Itachi. Don't know if you recall correctly enough, but Sasuke was on the ropes for most of that fight even though Itachi was a sick and slowly dying man. He even backed him up into a corner at the end. But the purpose of the fight was for Sasuke to be able to cleanse the Uchiha name, by killing the 'one who supposedly slaughtered the clan in cold blood'. Otherwise, things would have been awfully short, with the one dead on the ground being the younger brother. Back then, the gap in power between the two was immense, even though Sasuke had made massive progress in the Shinobi arts. Itachi and Jiraiya are on the same level, or were I should say, and both Naruto and Sasuke were below them by leagues. They've probably long surpassed those two by now though. well he didn't really defeat Deidara, since he blew himself up. and Orochimaru was at his weakest at the time Sasuke beat him too. Which means he shouldn't really get any credit for any of their deaths. Hell, he couldn't even beat Killer Bee. At least Naruto has Pain to his name. Sasuke only defeated Danzo from what I remember, and that old codger was spamming Izanagi like there was no tomorrow just to stay in the fight, not an impressive accomplishment I 'd say. |
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OppaiMan said: judals said: Well the link you sent proved it, he knew of the method, but only required the manpower, which he never bothered with because the plan of cutting his stomach itself did not exist till later. So why did he never bother to do it before? To summon whatever (powerful) uchiha he could? The scroll was also found in his hideout post mortem so he had it in his possession before dying in the itachi battle, but decided it should just be there for giggles. Wait you need to be a sage to do any of this? Nah. That's why AresnalFan said don't be a retard and read properly. You missed the part where Orochimaru can only transfer bodies once every three years. You also forgot Orochimaru's obsession with obtaining Sasuke's body. That theory also missed one thing Orochimaru noted that he himself has to become the sacrifice, this is probably necessary because it's his arm that he wants to retrieve. His plan was to use Sasuke's body all along, which is another reason why he waited 3 sweet years until Sasuke was strong enough. Obviously Sasuke already betrayed him before he could do that. If that wasn't clear enough this is pretty much Oro's plan: - Train Sasuke until he has stronger body while waiting for the 3 years time limit to pass - Go to the shrine - Wear the mask and sacrifice his old, dying body (who was really2 sick as shown when Sasuke attacked him) - Possess Sasuke The scroll was probably obtained sometime during the Tsunade search arc or after shortly that, Orochimaru said there's another method to heal his arms but never explained what. It implied that he either knew or had some sort of idea about another method. Why didn't he do it sooner then? obviously because he DIDN'T have Sasuke with him yet at that time. It all comes back to him wanting to possess Sasuke's body. Had the sound five brought Sasuke back in time, Orochimaru would've performed the ritual much sooner but they didn't, Oro had to possess another body and wait 3 more years to do what he wants to do. That's why he didn't just summon any edo tensei Uchiha because there'd be no point if he can't transfer body, he'll just kill himself by slicing his belly. I don't pay heed to insults of narutards anyway so... Anyway, him not being able to cast jutsu is irrelevant since Kabuto can and he used to. As for a strong enough uchiha, that can be done in an instant by summoning an invincible edo uchiha. Not to mention this whole three year rule is for the body transfer. By edo uchiha i meant someone to go and open the uchiha gate of the shrine, since he'd be under control. Worst case he'd sneak in there with sasuke. If mangekyou was what's required then it makes no sense Orochimaru tried to kill/possess him before sasuke obtaining it. |
GrunbeldJun 15, 2014 12:26 AM
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judals said: I don't pay heed to insults of narutards anyway so... Anyway, him not being able to cast jutsu is irrelevant since Kabuto can and he used to. As for a strong enough uchiha, that can be done in an instant by summoning an invincible edo uchiha. Not to mention this whole three year rule is for the body transfer. By edo uchiha i meant someone to go and open the uchiha gate of the shrine, since he'd be under control. Worst case he'd sneak in there with sasuke. If mangekyou was what's required then it makes no sense Orochimaru tried to kill/possess him before sasuke obtaining it. Nothing to do with Oro not being able to cast the jutsu. The body transfer is important, I already pointed out that Orochimaru needs to sacrifice himself to get his hand back. He will basically kill himself. Isn't your question "why didn't he retrieve his arm sooner"? Based on your theory this is what would happen: - Summon an edo tensei Uchiha to open the gate - Orochimaru wears that mask, summon the Death God, slices his belly - "oh shit I can't transfer my body, help.... my belly's sliced open!" - Dead Then what? He obviously can't transfer for another 3 years since he has already done that. Oro also never mentioned he was going after Mangekyou, he only wanted an Uchiha body. By that extension Mangekyou is a given since Oro can then obtain it anytime. During the chuunin exam he mentioned that he will wait until Sasuke grows a little more before possessing him. If you mean they need a mangekyou to open that marble then no. Sasuke already went to the hideout during part 1 (before he defected to Oro) and he hadn't obtained Mangekyou yet. A normal sharingan would do. |
Oppai is love, oppai is life |
| It'll be better if they give up on Naruto, release Kurama seal and let him get out of Naruto body and let Naruto die and make Gaara or Kakashi or Itachi edo tensei(again) became the main character. Madara even said it himself that Kage Bunshin is a highly-forbidden jutsu and Naruto used it like it was stupid genin jutsu. and then they said he get wiser in using it? against kakashi? oh yes that air maneuver sure is cool and then what else? just that huh? against Kakuzu huh? Kakuzu was heartlessly spamming his justsu against Kakashi before Naruto come and when Naruto come he became like "wow so cool jutsu let me see what will happen if it hit me" and the battle end. he got a lot of good jutsu, that Uzumaki Combo Taijutsu against Gaara, Kuchiyose, Toad Colaboration jutsu that he use in Place to return to stupid filler, Rasengan, Kage Bunshin and the worst is all he do is spamming kage bunshin and Rasengan. and his best move is Kage Bunshin diversion to Rasengan from the back of the enemy. Everything he done is all thanks to Kurama. |
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OppaiMan said: judals said: I don't pay heed to insults of narutards anyway so... Anyway, him not being able to cast jutsu is irrelevant since Kabuto can and he used to. As for a strong enough uchiha, that can be done in an instant by summoning an invincible edo uchiha. Not to mention this whole three year rule is for the body transfer. By edo uchiha i meant someone to go and open the uchiha gate of the shrine, since he'd be under control. Worst case he'd sneak in there with sasuke. If mangekyou was what's required then it makes no sense Orochimaru tried to kill/possess him before sasuke obtaining it. Nothing to do with Oro not being able to cast the jutsu. The body transfer is important, I already pointed out that Orochimaru needs to sacrifice himself to get his hand back. He will basically kill himself. Isn't your question "why didn't he retrieve his arm sooner"? Based on your theory this is what would happen: - Summon an edo tensei Uchiha to open the gate - Orochimaru wears that mask, summon the Death God, slices his belly - "oh shit I can't transfer my body, help.... my belly's sliced open!" - Dead Then what? He obviously can't transfer for another 3 years since he has already done that. Oro also never mentioned he was going after Mangekyou, he only wanted an Uchiha body. By that extension Mangekyou is a given since Oro can then obtain it anytime. During the chuunin exam he mentioned that he will wait until Sasuke grows a little more before possessing him. If you mean they need a mangekyou to open that marble then no. Sasuke already went to the hideout during part 1 (before he defected to Oro) and he hadn't obtained Mangekyou yet. A normal sharingan would do. What body transfer are you referring to? Sasuke's or the Green haired guy? And if Mangekyou is not necessary then he could have used any Uchiha, so anyone revived would do the trick. Especially ones that are experts, like madara or another higher up. |
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judals said: What body transfer are you referring to? Sasuke's or the Green haired guy? And if Mangekyou is not necessary then he could have used any Uchiha, so anyone revived would do the trick. Especially ones that are experts, like madara or another higher up. Let me get this straight, what exactly is your question? if I'm correct you're asking why didn't Orochimaru go to the shrine earlier right? First things first, the Hokages are trapped inside the Death God's belly. If you're talking about ep 365, Orochimaru went to the shrine to release both souls as well as his hands. In order to do this he needs all the pre-requisite that was mentioned above AND sacrifice himself. Orochimaru summoned the Hokages simply because Sasuke requested to talk to them. To put it simply he's killing two birds with one stone: reviving the former Hokage as well as retrieving his arm. Kabuto couldn't summon the former Hokage because their souls are trapped inside the death God and it's not like he has any reason to assist Sasuke after Sasuke "killed" his master. Prior to this event, Sasuke was simply hell bent on destroying the leaf but after meeting Itachi he had a slight doubt as to what to do. That's why he wanted to meet the former Hokage and you will see what it is Sasuke wants to confirm next episode. The next question is why Orochimaru didn't retrieve his arm sooner and it was already explained on that link. Aside from needing the Uchiha tablet to perform the ritual, his inability to procure Sasuke as his next host in time also prevented this. Orochimaru can only transfer his body to another host once every three years at the minimum. When Sasuke ran away from the village, Oro was already nearing his limit since his hand was sealed by the Third. When Sasuke didn't arrive in time, Oro was forced to transfer his body to another host and that prevented him from doing so for another 3 years. Sasuke though betrayed him and he was sealed before he could possess Sasuke. Sasuke then meet Obito, who planted 6 Zetsu without Sasuke knowing. Orochimaru is aware of this because when he absorbed his chakra & parts of his body from Kabuto, he also regained some of Kabuto's knowledge from the time Kabuto implanted his cell inside his body. Kabuto only researched White Zetsu prior to joining forces with Obito. This is all basically why Orochimaru never did what he did in ep 365 prior to the war: 1. No reason to revive former Hokage 2. Even when he wants to do so, he can't because he will kill himself. Oro can do what he did in 365 because 3 years has already passed since the last time he transferred bodies, that's why he can release the former Hokage and his hand while also avoided dying by transferring his real body (the snake) to another host. Conclusion: no point in using any former Uchiha because Oro can't do shit even if he can get inside the Uchiha room. |
Oppai is love, oppai is life |
| The orochmaru/Itachi's timeline comes to mind... |
| 5 main aspects I base my ratings on: 1. Did DramaEnthusiast make a thread about it? 2. Is it better than Breaking Bad? 3. Did MellowJello recommend the shit out of it? 4. Has it caused a (very entertaining) shitstorm on MAL? 5. Is it actually good? Scratch the fifth point, it's not very relevant... |
OppaiMan said: judals said: What body transfer are you referring to? Sasuke's or the Green haired guy? And if Mangekyou is not necessary then he could have used any Uchiha, so anyone revived would do the trick. Especially ones that are experts, like madara or another higher up. Let me get this straight, what exactly is your question? if I'm correct you're asking why didn't Orochimaru go to the shrine earlier right? First things first, the Hokages are trapped inside the Death God's belly. If you're talking about ep 365, Orochimaru went to the shrine to release both souls as well as his hands. In order to do this he needs all the pre-requisite that was mentioned above AND sacrifice himself. Orochimaru summoned the Hokages simply because Sasuke requested to talk to them. To put it simply he's killing two birds with one stone: reviving the former Hokage as well as retrieving his arm. Kabuto couldn't summon the former Hokage because their souls are trapped inside the death God and it's not like he has any reason to assist Sasuke after Sasuke "killed" his master. Prior to this event, Sasuke was simply hell bent on destroying the leaf but after meeting Itachi he had a slight doubt as to what to do. That's why he wanted to meet the former Hokage and you will see what it is Sasuke wants to confirm next episode. The next question is why Orochimaru didn't retrieve his arm sooner and it was already explained on that link. Aside from needing the Uchiha tablet to perform the ritual, his inability to procure Sasuke as his next host in time also prevented this. Orochimaru can only transfer his body to another host once every three years at the minimum. When Sasuke ran away from the village, Oro was already nearing his limit since his hand was sealed by the Third. When Sasuke didn't arrive in time, Oro was forced to transfer his body to another host and that prevented him from doing so for another 3 years. Sasuke though betrayed him and he was sealed before he could possess Sasuke. Sasuke then meet Obito, who planted 6 Zetsu without Sasuke knowing. Orochimaru is aware of this because when he absorbed his chakra & parts of his body from Kabuto, he also regained some of Kabuto's knowledge from the time Kabuto implanted his cell inside his body. Kabuto only researched White Zetsu prior to joining forces with Obito. This is all basically why Orochimaru never did what he did in ep 365 prior to the war: 1. No reason to revive former Hokage 2. Even when he wants to do so, he can't because he will kill himself. Oro can do what he did in 365 because 3 years has already passed since the last time he transferred bodies, that's why he can release the former Hokage and his hand while also avoided dying by transferring his real body (the snake) to another host. Conclusion: no point in using any former Uchiha because Oro can't do shit even if he can get inside the Uchiha room. The first 5 paragraphs dodged the point completely. If you claim Oro only didn't do it then because he had to possess sasuke, he didn't possess sasuke now. So no, possessing him isn't required. Only cooperation, which can be accomplished by 1) trading the "power" he offered sasuke with this service or have an edo uchiha compelled to do it. Your two reasons listed: 1- he had a reason, other than powerful 2 hokages, he's get his freaking arms. Only way this'd make sense is if you're saying oro has to kill himself, then quickly transform into a newer body, bypassing the sacrifice, in which case, he could have spent the sannin arc having said edo uchiha carry it out and he'd transfer afterward anyway. |
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judals said: The first 5 paragraphs dodged the point completely. If you claim Oro only didn't do it then because he had to possess sasuke, he didn't possess sasuke now. So no, possessing him isn't required. No, you forgot Orochimaru's original goal early in the series. He wanted to possess Sasuke to have an original Uchiha body that can use sharingan to its fullest extent. Why didn't he possess Sasuke now then (as of ep 365)? 1. Because his main goal has changed completely, now he's more fascinated by which path Sasuke would take instead of taking over him (which you would see in the coming episodes). 2. Oro said himself that right now he's too weak to steal Sasuke's body anyway.  You know what, actually just read the god damn chapter (it's chapter 593) and you'll understand the answer to these two questions. judals said: Your two reasons listed: 1- he had a reason, other than powerful 2 hokages, he's get his freaking arms. Only way this'd make sense is if you're saying oro has to kill himself, then quickly transform into a newer body, bypassing the sacrifice, in which case, he could have spent the sannin arc having said edo uchiha carry it out and he'd transfer afterward anyway. That's what I've been pointing out all along since the beginning. To do the ritual to release his hand and the hokage soul HE has to sacrifice himself so he needs the ability to do body transfer to bypass the sacrifice thing. Why do you think I attached that manga page from before? phew I can't believe it took this long for you to realize that. Seems like we've been arguing round and round. You're also purposely ignoring all those reasons as to why he didn't retrieve his arms earlier (it's all in the link I gave you). During the beginning of Tsunade arc, he didn't have the scroll yet. Why do you think he went to all the trouble seeking Tsunade's help?. He even mentioned that getting Tsunade's help is the only way to heal his arms BUT at the end of the arc Oro somehow said that it doesn't matter anyway because there's another method but he didn't specify how. It implied that he either had a vague idea on how to do it or has just found a way to do it. So no, he couldn't have spent the Tsunade arc using edo Uchiha because he didn't know how yet, at least not until near the end of Tsunade arc (and that's the soonest possible time). Here's the image  Notice how it was only after he got defeated by Jiraiya and Tsunade that he said that?Orochimaru only started researching ways to revive his arms not long after the invasion arc (this is elaborated more in chapter 619, possibly next episode). If Orochimaru found the scroll shortly before the end of Tsunade arc, it makes more sense (for him anyway) to hold out for a little bit instead of like you said, use edo uchiha and transfer to a temporary body, wasting another three years but alas he miscalculated and was forced to abandon that. I can't emphasize enough about Orochimaru's obsession with taking over Sasuke's body at that time. After Tsunade search arc, Orochimaru immediately sent out the Sound Five to get Sasuke. He was waiting anxiously while enduring the pain, a CLEAR indication of his determination to use Sasuke and not anyone else) but Kabuto judged that Oro couldn't hold out much longer. He even refused to use any of the underlings body including the highly skilled Kabuto  It has GOT TO BE Sasuke! This answers your question why he didn't just use edo Uchiha and switch to Sasuke later. His intention was obviously to perform the ritual as soon as possible, retrieve his arms, and take over Sasuke as the next host but thanks to Naruto's meddling things didn't go as planned and he was forced to transfer to a temporary body anyway. |
OppaiManJun 15, 2014 12:11 PM
Oppai is love, oppai is life |
| 1. Sure, instead of wanting a body he wanted to only watch what he does with it. Instantly after death and rebirth, he just doesn't want it anymore. Totally bought. 2. You just said he needs to possess the body to complete the Jutsu, you don't see him possessing Sasuke. Apparently any Zetsu can do. 3. His obsession with Sasuke, would have had him already dispatch the sound 5 and carry out the plan before going on a far fetched attempt to ask help from someone who clearly has a grudge against him. His "miscalculation" seems to be a force of out-of-character moment. 4. When did he find the scroll? Where? Definitely before the Retrieval arc, which warrants, but that means he immediately found it betwee the Sannin/Retrieval arcs, in such short notice, that could only mean he already knew of its whereabouts and/or leads, so it was extremely easy to obtain, even implied by the way he said it, during the fight. As such, why didn't he simply go fro the more probable, much faster route? This way he'd even have more time to deal with Sasuke. 5. When I said Edo Uchiha I was talking about someone he'd use to access the shrine, which requires access of a member, I presume. A point to counter how he couldn't have accessed it before, brought by that other guy. Besides, you say he was planning on reviving his arms and jumping to Sasuke's body immediately afterward... was he in the shrine? Did he have a mask? Where and how? |
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judals said: 1. Sure, instead of wanting a body he wanted to only watch what he does with it. Instantly after death and rebirth, he just doesn't want it anymore. Totally bought. 2. You just said he needs to possess the body to complete the Jutsu, you don't see him possessing Sasuke. Apparently any Zetsu can do. 3. His obsession with Sasuke, would have had him already dispatch the sound 5 and carry out the plan before going on a far fetched attempt to ask help from someone who clearly has a grudge against him. His "miscalculation" seems to be a force of out-of-character moment. 4. When did he find the scroll? Where? Definitely before the Retrieval arc, which warrants, but that means he immediately found it betwee the Sannin/Retrieval arcs, in such short notice, that could only mean he already knew of its whereabouts and/or leads, so it was extremely easy to obtain, even implied by the way he said it, during the fight. As such, why didn't he simply go fro the more probable, much faster route? This way he'd even have more time to deal with Sasuke. 5. When I said Edo Uchiha I was talking about someone he'd use to access the shrine, which requires access of a member, I presume. A point to counter how he couldn't have accessed it before, brought by that other guy. Besides, you say he was planning on reviving his arms and jumping to Sasuke's body immediately afterward... was he in the shrine? Did he have a mask? Where and how? Man... it's like you don't even try to read my answers properly. I feel like explaining 1+1 = 2 right now because I'm just repeating myself over and over again. Did you even watch/read Naruto properly or just skimmed through chapters/episode? 1. Did you even read the page I gave you? Did I not underline the word "too weak" to takeover Sasuke's body? or was the manga page not big enough for you? In that very same page Orochimaru also mentioned he's still interested in Sasuke's body. Besides at this point in the manga both Orochimaru's and Sasuke's intention is pretty much in the grey area. We don't know yet if they've truly changed to the good side or was it all a ruse. Why is Orochimaru helping Sasuke now? No one really knows. He's been helpful in the battle against Obito but ALSO behaving suspiciously. NO ONE trusts him yet! Not the Hawk, not the former Hokage, not Tsunade, not even Sasuke who still put himself on guard around Orochimaru. 2. Complete what Jutsu? what jutsu are you talking about? He possessed White Zetsu because (back to point number 1) he's not strong enough and he has a different motive. If you're talking about body transfer jutsu, he can use just about anyone. Do you even understand how this jutsu works in the first place? It's like I'm trying to explain to a Naruto noob here. Why he doesn't possess Sasuke now? back to point number 1! 3. Who? Who has a grudge with him? certainly not wee little Sasuke in part 1 because Sasuke only went to him in search of power. If Sasuke was brought to him at that time, Orochimaru can forcefully take over the inexperienced and weaker younger Sasuke. Again here you seem to be confused about Orochimaru's insistence on using Sasuke at that time. Did you even know his background? did you even know why he even targeted Sasuke in the first place? Tsunade did NOT have a grudge with him. At that time Tsunade was also the only method Oro knew and Oro mentioned that it's also the best method. In every sense, Tsunade is just as much of a missing-nin as Orochimaru prior to becoming the Fifth Hokage. Her allegiance to the leaf was pretty much unknown since she acted like she didn't care until she decided that Orochimaru is too great of a threat at the last minute. Go RE-READ the Tsunade arc. 4. Chapter 619. Read it. To make it easier for you to grasp the Tsunade arc has about one week time frame. You also need to remember that Orochimaru is a ninjutsu maniac who likse to do tons and tons of research about old ninjutsu (again I feel like explaining to a noob who Orochimaru is and how he operates). 5. So I ask you, what's the point for him to go there? before the Tsunade arc he doesn't know an alternative method to heal his arms yet, during the Sasuke retrieval arc Sasuke didn't arrive in time, while in the 3 years during time skip he can't do body transfer jutsu. What was he gonna do in the Uchiha room? "As such, why didn't he simply go fro the more probable, much faster route? This way he'd even have more time to deal with Sasuke." Back to point number 3 for you. Of course eventually he was forced to do that but more on that on point 6. 6. And your last question, do you really need everything to be spoon fed to you? can't you, for once, use your brain and try to think from the character's perspective? I've already said many times that Orochimaru miscalculated. Don't forget that during the Tsunade arc, Kabuto's medicine ALSO helped him to endure the pain and he must have thought he can endure it until Sasuke arrived and then had enough time to retrieve the mask (at the abandoned Uzumaki's clan shrine, which wasn't that difficult tbh) and go to the Uchiha hideout. In conjunction with your question as to why he didn't use a faster method, which part of Orochimaru saying "It's got to be Sasuke-kun. Do you know how long I've waited?" is not clear enough for you? or again, is the manga page not big enough for you to read? again back to point number 3 and Orochimaru's background. What he didn't expect was for his body to deteriorate faster than he thought it would, in case you don't remember just until recently he was still strong enough to take on both Tsunade and Jiraiya even with his arms sealed so his confidence was understandable. His obsession, impatience, and stubbornness were his downfall but it's all understandable when you know his background or understand his personality. It's all simple logic, man. Do you really need for someone else to make the connection for you? you seem really baffled about many things but it's really just you not understanding the character's personality, background, their motive, and especially how the jutsus in Naruto-verse work. One thing that's very obvious is you didn't pay attention to the little details and forgot about stuffs that has been shown or explained before, that's why you have a lot of trouble connecting the dots. You even missed a lot of parts of my explanation that I have to explain it again and again when I'm just writing the same thing. Are you letting your hate blind you to these answers or do you actually have a short attention span? I won't be surprised if you ask me the same thing again in your reply. Seriously dude, you're just trying to pick a non-existent plot hole by asking why the characters don't do A or B when it'll be out-of-character for them to do so (such as Oro not waiting for Sasuke) or simply didn't fit the circumstances (asking Oro to use edo Uchiha when he didn't know that method yet). These characters are not omnipotent or flawless (otherwise they won't be human), they have emotion and driving motives behind them that compel them to do one action instead of the other. Everyone from Orochimaru, Jiraiya, Obito, and even Madara (yes, freaking Madara) has miscalculated at one point. |
OppaiManJun 15, 2014 9:13 PM
Oppai is love, oppai is life |
| I'd ask you to read carefully even if you're gonna skip some points. 1. Your reply was about him not wanting to steal the body, which I replied to accordingly. The too weak part is point 2. Him waiting out of interest is not a believable answer. 2. You said he needed to possess Sasuke is why he held out, and now only did it because "of that reason", despite him not possessing sasuke. So this is just wrong info. As for being weak... On to next point 3. Tsunade. Obviously they werent on the best of terms which brings me to why they didn't go for the easier route as proposed in point 4 4. Beside the point. It was extremely easy to obtain it, happening in such period of time. Deciding to set out and look for it, and getting it so soon. 5. Next point 6. Waaaay past the point. You claimed he was prepared at the point to do the ritual, the miscalculation was sasuke being late, so him being ready imples he was already at the shrine and obtained the (uzumaki?) mask required for the ritual. That makes even another plot hole. He basically suddenly added two requirements despite oro going without them regardless... Or somehow having magical access to them. Oh so now he just never bothered to pick up the mask? Or couldnt they decide to meet up at the shrine itself? Either kishi was dumb or didn't really think of this early on. Last note, I'd rather your comments be more concise. I'd hate to read 3 paragraphs to realize you are talking about something other than my point. |
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judals said: I'd ask you to read carefully even if you're gonna skip some points. 1. Your reply was about him not wanting to steal the body, which I replied to accordingly. The too weak part is point 2. Him waiting out of interest is not a believable answer. 2. You said he needed to possess Sasuke is why he held out, and now only did it because "of that reason", despite him not possessing sasuke. So this is just wrong info. As for being weak... On to next point 3. Tsunade. Obviously they werent on the best of terms which brings me to why they didn't go for the easier route as proposed in point 4 4. Beside the point. It was extremely easy to obtain it, happening in such period of time. Deciding to set out and look for it, and getting it so soon. 5. Next point 6. Waaaay past the point. You claimed he was prepared at the point to do the ritual, the miscalculation was sasuke being late, so him being ready imples he was already at the shrine and obtained the (uzumaki?) mask required for the ritual. That makes even another plot hole. He basically suddenly added two requirements despite oro going without them regardless... Or somehow having magical access to them. Oh so now he just never bothered to pick up the mask? Or couldnt they decide to meet up at the shrine itself? Either kishi was dumb or didn't really think of this early on. Last note, I'd rather your comments be more concise. I'd hate to read 3 paragraphs to realize you are talking about something other than my point. 1. That's why I gave you the precise manga page, dude. My explanation may have been too long winded or unclear but I think that page already explained what I wanted to explain to you better. I also didn't say he didn't want to steal the body, re-read my point again. This is what I typed btw: "His main goal has changed completely". Notice the word "main"? That's why I gave you the exact chapter so you can see for yourself what exactly happened. English sentence must be taken within a context and I was even careful enough to insert those words. Just because his main interest has switched doesn't mean he doesn't have any other interest. 2. It's not wrong info, once again you failed to grasp the context of my sentence. I said he needed Sasuke because Oro was obsessed with him (I repeated this in many points), not because the body transfer jutsu has to be done with Sasuke. That's why I asked you if you even understand how the body transfer jutsu works. 3. Tsunade & Oro weren't the best of friends but calling it grudge is way over exaggerating. Tsunade left the leaf because she was disillusioned by Dan's and Nawaki's death, nothing to do with Oro. If that's not convincing enough, Orochimaru was even bold enough to be complete honest with Tsunade about wanting to destroy the leaf. 4. You asked when and how he found the scroll, I answered it's in ch619. Actually at that point he may not even have acquired it precisely yet. I told you he has been researching old ninjutsu and may have found a clue about the existence of that scroll but have yet to find it. Whatever the case, it doesn't matter if he had found it or not because he still needs Sasuke. 6. I told you he miscalculated his body's endurance. Look at how he obtained the mask & performed the ritual. It pretty much happened in 1 episode while in the manga it's 1 chapter (only a few pages actually). The Uzumaki village is only in the outskirt of the leaf so obtaining the mask and entering the Uchiha shrine is not that difficult once he has Sasuke. Orochimaru at that time was still strong enough to travel searching for Tsunade and as I pointed out, even fought against her and Jiraiya. If the Sound Five wasn't held off by the genin leaf, they might have even arrived at Orochimaru's hideout in less than a day (the land of sound is located exactly next to the fire country). It's really not that far-fetched for him to wait until Sasuke arrived and then set out to obtain the mask and do the ritual since it's so easy to get. His body simply deteriorated faster than he expected. |
OppaiManJun 15, 2014 11:36 PM
Oppai is love, oppai is life |
| @OppaiMan Man, why are you arguing with this dunce? he clearly just want to argue for the sake of argument. He asks things that were clearly and literally stated by the manga. Looks at how detailed your posts are, and how little words he bothered to write, and how he dismisses your point in weak arguments. Don't indulge him. |
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