| From the Author: I know this is not perfect - in fact I would never dare to claim it is. Some of the material might've been skipped - Because - as we all know - R2 was a trainwreck, coming out with their "Power of love" speeches, ninjas and valentine day contests I watched the series only once, at the time it aired. But whatever other arguments you might pull out of your sleeve, it still won't change my opinion that Karen is a dumb, immature b...., unable to put two and two together, and throwing a tantrum whenever things not go her way. The way she behaved after Order betrayed Lelouch-dono assured me of that. Also, I pray that she'll never learn who the "second Zero" is - she might go Yangire on Spinzaku there... Without prolonging this anymore, let's get to the article itself: --------------------------------------------------------------- Now I know many people belong to the "KaLulu Supporters" (An abbreviation from Karen x Lelouch) group. I'd like to say clearly that I see absolutely no way such pairing could ever exist, and I will try to prove it here. In the first season, we can see the relationship between those two slowly develop - we learn to know Karen as a young pilot of a KnightMare Frame (KMF for short), who also is practically the first unit under Zero's command, after being saved from Jeremiah Gottwald. After that, they meet in school, and establish relationship of classmates. After the "Orange" Incident, there is the second relationship established - that of a commander and a subordinate. As the series progresses, Karen learns to trust Zero - being thrown into multiple suicide situations, and coming out of them alive with only Lelouch's wits and minimum equipment, she begins to gain security - that Zero indeed can save the Japan from Britannia's oppressors. That security is linked together with trust towards Zero - as we can see in episode 12, where the Order goes to meet with Kirihara: K: It doesn't matter what Zero's real identity is, all right? Zero has the ability to win against Cornelia. Hes the leader of the Order of the Black Knights. Is there a need to know more?  There's no reason to distrust him! Also, later when Lelouch asks Karen if she wants to know his identity, altough she hesitates, in the end she decides to trust him. Now, If I were to pick at details, I'd ask which woman would go for this kind of insecurity when it comes to her lover? The only thing she knows about him is that he's a brilliant commander, and that he wants to help them liberate Japan. I think this shows how immature Karen really is pretty well. But let's move on. Last part of those feelings is that of fear - subconciously having a feeling that "If they force him to reveal his face, he will disappear". And until here, everything's fine. To be honest, judging from the trust Karen shows towards and sense of security she gets from Zero, I can say that the pathway for Kalulu was actually more open BEFORE R2. Why? well let's get to that. Everything began to crumble at the final episode of 1st season, when Karen learned that Zero's identity is Lelouch. Now, just for reminder's sake, Karen had pretty bad opinion about Lelouch - let's review the 9th episode, "Refrain" - to be exact, the part after Lelouch "saves" the guy from hot dog booth: L: That's why I didn't do anything. You should understand from the incident with that Eleven earlier. It's easy to live by lowering your head to Britannians. <slap> K: You think that's cool? Embracing those ideas and looking down upon the world? It was stupid of me to expect anything from you. I thought you were a decent man.   Seems like miss high and mighty got angry, because someone dared to not share her way of thinking... That just spells "maturity", right? Right? I think the slap there is speaking for itself. Returning to the final episode - this is where the situation began to fall apart. The problem with Karen's feelings was simple - her despise towards Lelouch's apathic behaviour was stronger than her trust towards Zero. Not much - She still served under Zero's orders - but it was still a tiny bit stronger. This is the first sign of Karen completely misunderstanding Lelouch's behaviour and ideals, but I will get to that later. Anyway, the first nail to Kalulu coffin was hammered right there and then - when she ran away from Lelouch and Suzaku, instead of helping Zero.  Surprise! Now I know what some of you will say - "She was confused! She didn't know how to deal with those feelings!" - Maybe. But again, the fact that she was confused enough to run away, means nothing else, but that she couldn't trust Zero enough to save him right there. The other thing is the lack of understanding of Lelouch I mentioned a while earlier. K: Le...Lelouch is... L: That's right, I'm Zero. I lead the Order of the Black Knights against the Holy Britannian Empire. And eventually, i'll be the one to take over the world. K: You made use of us Japanese? Even me... L: If you see it from the result standpoint, Japan will be liberated. You have no qualms about this, right?   How a single face can turn your opinion of someone by 180° I would like to point out the fact that she's getting the priorities wrong - "Apathic Lelouch is Zero, and doesn't really care" - where the correct priority would be "Active Zero is Lelouch, and he wants to change the world but can't go out in the open". This is the second nail - which in the long run is the heaviest one of all. While we're at it, let's point another thing - her idea of Zero changed purely because of learning his identity. He said nothing about his ideals, except for what he already stated as Zero way, way back earlier... OK the part about "Conquering the world" might have been a shock, but notice that that sentence alone did not add much to the shock Karen was already in... Also, what do you expect from a man who threats to destroy an Empire that holds one third of a whole world within it's grasp? So her shock was mostly based on the fact that Zero is indeed Lelouch - so I'd risk betting that the "You used us" did not come from the "Conquer the world part", but from the episodes earlier. And anyway - what is "Even me..." supposed to mean? Where did you get the idea that you were somehow special to him? I saw very little signs of this when he was acting as Zero (And by that I mean mostly the "You are the best pilot" and the part where he wanted to show her his true identity), and none at all when he was in school, so, dear Karen... mind explaining where you got that idea from? But there is more, let's move on. The next sign of distrust shows up in the first episodes of R2 - when Karen asks Lelouch "Who is he? Is he Lelouch, or is he Zero?" - again. where once Zero she saw was a hero - not perfectly white, but definitely fighting fot a just cause, now she looks at Zero through a prism of Lelouch - the one she saw on that bench in the park, and slapped for spouting theories that in her opinion were outrageous and insulting towards her mother. Next would be the Refrain episode from R2, but I will go on a little detour here - don't worry, we'll get back to that episode soon. I know many people like to point out the "let's go back to school and watch fireworks together" scene as something similar to a confession from Lelouch - but If you were to hear my opinion, it is you that are misunderstanding Lelouch this time. Lelouch never showed much concern towards Karen, and definitely did not look at her like you would look at a lover. Let's just bring up the fact that it took him almost half of the series to rescue her from Britannian prison. Again, I can tell what you will bring up next. "But he told her 'you must live', and wanted to sacrifice himself for her". The problem is, Lelouch cares for his friends. You could tell that he cares for them when back in season 1 they were held hostage by the JLF. You could tell that when he got mad at himself when he learned that Shirley's father has died. You could also tell that when he learned that Suzaku killed his father. This wasn't some amazing confession of love towards Karen. It was simple "It's fun spending time with you, I'd like to rebuild the relationship we all had in the Student Council before the whole 'Zero' Ruckuss" - no more, no less - He treated her as a friend, and - mind you - not the "trustee" type of friend, the one you would trust with your life (That place was reserved for Suzaku before Lelouch was betrayed by him), but the simple "classmate" type of friend - more than "Acquaintance", less than "True friend". The next thing I would like to bring up is the time when the Order betrayed Lelouch. Karen is dumb. And I seriously mean it - He tells her that he only used her (She believed him. Do you remember what I said about Trusting Zero?), and the moment she moves away from the gunpoint he tells her "You need to live"... OK, what should he say for her to catch on that he tried to sacrifice himself for her? Many people say that "She was just confused again about it" - she was so confused that she did not care to ask anyone what they think about it? And you also say that "because of that confusion she did not go searching for him" - But this is a contradiction right there. If she was really confused about his feelings towards her, wouldn't it be all the more reason to go and find him, and ask him about it? This is yet another example of immaturity I mentioned at the beginning - Why approach the matter like adults, and ask each other what the hell is going on? It's better to throw a tantrum - maybe he'll see that I'm angry, and he'll come back to me? (No, I don't think she really thought that way, it's just that this kind of reasoning comes to my mind when I think of the way she behaved back then) Yet another argument of Kalulu fans is Karen kissing Lelouch after his rise to power as Britannian Emperor - But that was only that. Karen kissing lelouch, and in return he was just standing there, staring at her without emotion. First of all, I'd like to point out - that was supposed to be a test. The "Confusion" I mentioned just now was the reason for this - "Let's kiss him and see how he reacts... If he cares for me, he'll definitely kiss me back, right?" Wrong. This is yet another example how little does Karen understand of Lelouch - If she knew just a little better, she'd know that the whole thing is a farce, and that he can't go into any relationships, because a) It would hinder his plans b) It would hurt those involved more. So he cuts all his ties with people he knew - remnants of the Student Council, Karen - and stays only with CC and Suzaku on personal terms. CC said "I will follow you, no matter what you do", and Suzaku had his part of the "deal" in it. Of course Karen wouldn't be able to get that in 100 years, because - she can't understand a thing about Lelouch. At the end of the series, we can see Karen exclaiming "This is true Zero!" - "Zero", meant as an ideal - and I am getting to it just now. This is the detour I mentioned earlier, and the conclusion of this article. One thing many people like to draw out in defence of Kalulu is the refrain episode, where Karen slaps Lelouch (again) back to reality. But look at the general mood of that scene. Lelouch - learning that his beloved sister Nanally is to become the next governor of Area 11, feels he doesn't have any reason to fight anymore and wants to use refrain to bring his mind back to the past, when he could (most probably) live with Nanally joyously, without being worried about the war. Then Karen steps in, realises what he wanted to do, and after Lelouch asks her to "comfort him", she slaps him back into reality, talking about "the play he has begun" and "responsibilities he has".   Aren't we quite understanding here... Giving some of that "love"... no wait, we aren't. What I want to point out in this scene is the manner in which she brings him back. I'd say there were at least two other ways to walk out of this one, supporting Kalulu: 1."I know it is painful for you, but please endure... I trust that you will be able to find a way out of this one, you always managed to find one..." And the Second one, which I would like to return to in a minute - the one that is the most unprobable when it comes to Karen - i'll also get to that later. 2."Then let's run away... we don't need to stay here." The first one is in good balance in my opinion. It connects together understanding towards Lelouch's pain of having to fight his own sister or losing his sense of fighting, a strong will of getting free Japan back and *trust* towards Lelouch, that he will be able to come out of every crisis, that sense of security she had back in season one, when dealing with Zero. The second one... I'd say it never even came through her mind - why? Because - and this is where we get to the bottom of things - She was never in love with Lelouch. She couldn't care less if it was Lelouch, Rival, Suzaku or whoever else that was Zero - she never considered spending the rest of her life with Zero being alive, feeling person. She never considered *being* with Zero. Then what DID she consider? The problem is that Zero was never existant as a person. "Zero", as in "none" - existing purely as a concept, an Ideal, that Lelouch decided to follow. Zero gave Karen that sense of security, and she was able to trust him, because she never considered that there might be conflicts within him - just a person that wants to free Japan for whatever cost possible - this kind of guy can't betray us, right? If his wish is the same as ours, he couldn't possibly turn on us, right? But suddenly, Zero gained a face. He gained a personality - he wasn't the "faceless concept" anymore - he was a person, that lives and feels. You cannot look at Zero Without looking at Lelouch, because the man behind the mask is part of Zero. The problem arose with those priorities I mentioned earlier. If she looked at Lelouch through prism of Zero - she would be able to understand him better, but she got the priorities swapped - ending in completely misunderstanding Lelouch's intentions. In the end, what she truly cared about was her country - Zero gave them a hope of regaining that country. Zero was the ray of hope, and the pillar they could support themselves on - but if you, yourself aren't sure if the pillar is stable, you are going to fall in the end. Finally, getting to the very end of that we arrive at the conclusion, that Karen's feelings towards Zero were not those of love - but more those of admiration. She admired his charisma, his ability to walk out of every situation unsratched, his confidence and his wits. With the whole "protecting the weak" approach and speeches, if we were to find a definition for Zero from Karen's perspective, it would be something along the lines of "Hero, fighting against injustice and protecting the opressed" And suddenly it all falls into place - to admire someone, you don't have to know his personality, as long as that person represents the values you hold dear. And if you actually learn of his personality - more often than not, your opinion goes down - because suddenly, the spotless white turns out to not be as spotless as you thought it was. And the final exclamation - "This is the true Zero!" - let's replace Zero with definition we just came up with. "This is the true Hero, fighting against injustice, protecting the opressed!" - as this would be the way Karen would describe Zero back in Season 1 - and looking at the role "Zerozaku" played in Zero Requiem - it fits together perfectly. Then there's the matter of her point of view on those feelings. Now, many Kalulus draw the "Karen's love poem" out or guidebook. What I'd like you to center your attention on is the S1 Character Song, second refrain to be exact: I'll be there when you call me I'm thinking of you all the time I'm not certain, but this is love, right? I'll be there when you call me I'm fighting with you for our life I can discover the next mission SOURCE The whole song expresses - again - trust and admiration. Readiness to follow him anywhere (Which she just dumps out of the window in R2)... but what I'd like to point out is the 3rd verse of the refrain I presented. "I'm not certain, but this is love, right?" I think this should clear this whole mess a little bit. In other words, Without knowing what that feeling was, she automatically assumed she loved him - Just another example of how mature she is. --------------------------------------------------------------- As for the final paragraph, I'd like to bring up the topic of some of Kalulus assumptions (this will probably get updated over time). "Karen narrated the ending, this means she understood Lelouch the best!" *** Let's begin with the ending of the series - my dear friends - Narrating the ending is not enough to "understand a person/character". Think of it this way: you can briefly sum up what happened last week, but that doesn't mean you know what sits in met during that week peoples' heads. Karen proves more than once that she doesn't get a jack what Lelouch is thinking. I just wrote about this, but let's review some of those points once again. a) She does not understand Zero's motivation - or rather, Ohgi in 1st season was closer to this: "Well people aren't just pieces in a game... Zero wouldn't think that way. Otherwise, he would just manipulate us like chess pieces. But that's impossible. His hatred for Britannia is real. People who understand hate should also understand sorrow." Karen never thought about this. For her, the main point was that Zero could defeat Britannia and bring Japan back - as long as that condition is met, she never really cared about anything else (At least until Shirley became directly involved). b) The thing after the Order betrayed Lelouch. She cannot understand he's sacrificing himself for her after he practically spelled it out for her. c) She never caught on what was the purpose of Lelouch becoming the Emperor: "What is it that you want? More power? Or is it just another game for you?" The sentence I just marked. "Is it just another game for you?" - so question for 100 pts. What this implicates? That she thought everything Lelouch did until now was just a game, and that he never treated all of this war seriously. I rest my case. *** "Karen and Shirley appeared in Lelouch's flashback first, so it means they were most important women to him. Shirley as a friend and Karen as a lover." *** Let's begin with the fact that this is complete BS. You know why? because the most important person to Lelouch was Nanally. Period. As for whether they are on second and third place... I don't know what to say - In my opinion, this a little bit too ambigious to draw any assumptions from it, But I'd say that yes, this is possible. But even if it was, it still has a major flaw - usually you'd first bring up your lover, then your friends. If this is true, then canonically Lelouch would love Shirley, and treat Karen as a friend. And that leaves Kalulu exactly where it has been standing until now - impossible, and relation between Lelouch and Karen was just that of "friends". Just that CC is replaced with Shirley. Then there is the problem of whether he's dead or not - if you take Zongetsu's analysis on R2 ending into consideration, then Lelouch probably knew he's going to survive - as according to that analysis Orange was aware of this - you'd expect the one concerned to be better informed than his subordinates. If he was aware of this, then the "Shirley and Karen first" could simply be treated as a way of saying "farewell" - after all he did not need to part with CC, because he lives with her in the countryside. Still, what you say might be partially true - but then again, this is a single argument against a whole bunch of others, and I don't think I need to say to which side the scales turn. *** //(Thanks to Danceljoy) --------------------------------------------------------------- I know many of you will call me biased. I know many will say that it is not true and so on - believe whatever you want. But keep in mind, I can name you at least several other series where despite main character choosing the worse (or even the WORST) character (IMHO of course) out of the bunch, I can still agree there was some romance between the two. Kalulu had some chance of surviving at the end of 1st Season, but R2 - quite opposite to what many people seem to be thinking - crushed hopes of those. On the first look, it seems as if it is actually supporting Kalulu, but if you only try to look deeper into the behaviour of the two characters, you can see that in fact it becomes something that has no fundation or right to exist. -Maurox |
MauroxMar 26, 2009 7:59 AM
     -=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| If anyone spots any mistakes or spelling errors, feel free to post here. same thing if you have something you'd like to add. |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| Total pwnege :D The theory is extremely well written and I think that there are no flaws but I could be mistaken (since I'm a CCxLulu fan) :D |
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| @Raven_Shinobi: If you mean the R2 extras, then I never bothered to go through them. Cornelia in Seifuku on a sound episode spells "bullshit" to me, maybe i'm just biased... but I really, really hate bringing up R2. Because that means I have to watch through scenes of it again, and I *really* don't want to do that. well this article couldn't be completed without going into R2 because - like I said there, first season actually leaves a path for Kalulu open. What I already said in this club - people from sunrise act like they've been high since the beginning of R2. From what I heard that they're posting in their "guidebook", they're contradicting whatever logical evidence we can find in the Anime, and go with whatever public wants I think... this is why I'm really sceptical towards anything with R2 on it... That "Power of love" haunts me to this day -_-; Also - I Never said Lelouch did chase girls. This is the problem of what will "come naturally" - noone is looking for romance here, if there is one, then it just... comes. Best example of what I mean is Spice and Wolf, and the way relationship between Horo and Lawrence progresses - noone looks for love, it just appears suddenly when you realize you can't live without the other person. @lulu101: I'll take a look at that later, but I can already generally imagine what it's about... Anyway, thanks to everyone who posted... those who didn't... feedback is welcome ;) |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| Good point. But then again, how am I supposed to point out that it's stupid? you either notice that it's stupid, or you don't - there's no way to contradict it, because it has no base in logical arguments. It's like trying to prove that what is falling from the sky is not coffee but rain - there are some things you just know, or you are too dumb/blind to notice them >.> if you go into discussion like that, finally it might lead to a discussion on "Coffee is a name created by humans, so we could name "Coffee" anything, right?" - and at that moment there's no sense in continuing... "Don't argue with an idiot - he will first bring you down to his level, and then beat you with sheer experience" I think this is the main problem with Kalulu fans... If anyone here is pulling at straws - it's them. They're overinterpreting and using every single bit of information that they can twist to serve their cause,every bit of ambigiousness they can use, without looking at the overall picture and whether it all makes sense in the context of the whole series :/ |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
awesom analysis! this prouf will make 'kalulu' fans silent. |
| To be honest I doubt it will... but still thanks... I guess ^_^; |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| The analysis is good, thanks a lot for posting it :) However I believe that your statement here is a bit biased: "This is the true Zero!" - let's replace Zero with definition we just came up with. "This is the true Ideal of Hero, fighting against injustice and crime, protecting the weak and defenseless!" - and it all falls into place. In my opinion, you must elaborate thw positive and negative aspects of her realization. Also, please include why Kallen narrating the aftermath does not prove Kalulu's victory. I also suggest that you should include some of |
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
| @Danceljoy: About the "biased" part - What I meant is that this is how Karen looked at Zero before she learned his identity... And it's not supposed to be opinion on whether Lelouch's ideals are right or wrong... remember that because of admiration you tend to overlook some faults - I wrote about that ;) I'll add it though just for clarity's sake... Positive and negative aspects... as in what good came out of the fact that she learned... his identity I understand? As for the Karen narrating the aftermath... could you elaborate, because I haven't heard that one yet >.> As for that certain stubborn character/individual... I'll need to visit the CG club again and stir up something for this purpose XD cause I don't even remember them... |
MauroxMar 16, 2009 12:56 AM
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
Maurox said: @Danceljoy: As for the Karen narrating the aftermath... could you elaborate, because I haven't heard that one yet >.> As for that certain stubborn character/individual... I'll need to visit the CG club again and stir up something for this purpose XD cause I don't even remember them... I remember Fai or some Kalulu fans saying that because Kallen and Shirley are the first people to appear in Lulu's flashbacks while lying in the pool of blood, it proves that they are the most important women in his life. Also, Kalulus say that Kallen narrating the life after the emperor's death is the proof that she's the one who truly understood Lelouch. Very believable :p |
danceljoyNov 15, 2009 3:23 PM
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
| oh yeah, there was something like that all right... Well... I'll be honest with you - I don't know if I will get to update it... I promise I'll try to remember about it and fix those parts you mentioned, but... the problem is, I'm just too damn lazy, so I don't know if I'll find any motivation to do it >.< So forgive me If It'll stay this way after all >.< Over and Out. Maurox |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
danceljoy said: Maurox said: @Danceljoy: As for the Karen narrating the aftermath... could you elaborate, because I haven't heard that one yet >.> As for that certain stubborn character/individual... I'll need to visit the CG club again and stir up something for this purpose XD cause I don't even remember them... O remember Fai and some Kalulu fans saying that because Kallen and Shirley are the first people to appear in Lulu's flashbacks while lying in the pool of blood, it proves that they are the most important women in his life. Also, Kalulus say that Kallen narrating the life after the emperor's death is the proof that she's the one who truly understood Lelouch. Very believable :p >< |
GOODBYE KANXHARU-CHAN Will be leaving this account and moving to my new account, _SHINjuku. Feel free to add my new account, if you want. ^^ See you there~! |
| You are lucky, I got to do it. And fairly quickly too XD Opinions are welcome. |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| Thanks for the edit, I really appreciate it. Now I could recommend this to my friends :D I'll go hunt some more BS Kalulu statements :) |
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
| I don't know what you are thanking me for, but whatever ;P wow... recommendations... Holy crap, I'm starting to feel the pressure ->  XD |
MauroxSep 10, 2010 4:56 AM
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| Well I thanked you for the acknowledgement in the analysis. Not to pressure you or anything but I read from a site that many side materials point that Lelouch may have loved Kallen romantically. But of course, side materals is nothing compared to the anime itself. |
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
| No, I do agree that Side materials should also be counted - Let's look at the sound episodes, picture books or even character songs - e.g. Milly's Chara song "Dear My Friend" 's first and second Strophe: Sometimes I feel it Just like other girls Every time I fall for someone I want to do things like sulk and pout But because I hear your problems too Because I take them in My hidden feelings for you I'll keep them that way for life I don't know about you, but it gave me a possibility to look at Millay from a different side, when I never thought she might act this way because of reasons like that. When I read the lyrics it's like "Of course! Why didn't I think of that before", and it fits her perfectly. Also - I suppose you've listened to sound episodes? The final part of SdEp.0.911 "Milly to no Saikai" Lelouch: ...Thanks. ("Alone" starts playing) Milly: (light laughter; fondly) 'S alright. Welcome to Ashford Academy! Milly: The wind with the cherry blossom scent has come and gone several times since. He's overtaken me in height, too. Even so, he's pompous and not in the least adorable... and yet when it comes to his little sister his feelings are left in the open. He hasn't changed at all. (laugh) And that was why... ...Yes, I didn't miss a single second of it: the way your cheeks coloured ever so slightly when you thanked me. Still... I know this is what you'll say, Lelouch... "It was only the heat... from the warm sunlight of spring." I wonder how many people caught on the fact that Milly is also romantically interested in Lelouch. But let alone that - the sound episode Zongetsu used in his analysis. The CC's "Reincarnation": Yet another something precious to me Is about to disappear Even so, I will spill no tears What was it that I have lost in exchange For eternal ♥♥♥? Even if my heart screams When I'm sad, the path to Tomorrow, which destiny keeps spinning around, Is unstoppable I think this sums up perfectly her line "Don't get attached to it if you don't want to be hurt". Actually, I can see I should've included the Karen's image song. The strophe: I'll be there when you call me I'm thinking of you all the time I'm not certain, but this is love, right? I'll be there when you call me I'm fighting with you for our life I can discover the next mission I think this sums up my article quite well. And the WHOLE SONG Spells out "I'll be with you no matter what happens"... Eeeexcept Karen throws that out of the window the moment Karen learns Zero's identity, because she's starting to constantly suspect Lelouch from what I remember. I'll need to add that later. Oh yeah! and about "Lelouch being interested in Karen": (Door opens) C.C.: I'm back, Lelouch. Lelouch: You certainly took your time. Heard you were with Kallen. C.C.: Does Kallen interest you? Lelouch: Not really. C.C.: (quietly) Pity. Lelouch: What's that about? C.C.: Oh no, it's just that we had a fairly interesting conversation -- regarding Zero's face. Lelouch: Oi -- what have you told her? Again, I think this speaks for itself, but I'll also need to find a way to implement this into the main text... So yeah, in the end Side materials should count, they're giving us backstory and insight into characters' personalities'... Of course they come after the main series, though in S1 there was never any problem with this - but what they're doing after R2 is just pure bullcrap. in S1 there was never really any clear indication of romance - true, if you're reading between the lines you can find the connections and relationships between characters, but nothing is that obvious (except for Shirley, but then again, Karen also says she "loves" Zero, but... read the part with her chara song again ;P) What they're doing in R2 is slapping a huge sticker on the front, saying "KAREN X LELOUCH - 90% TRUE". Then again, if you can read between the lines, and look at it objectively, you can see that some things just aren't possible. |
MauroxMar 23, 2009 12:30 PM
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/ShipSinking Hane you checked this out? Anyway there are pro-Kalulu statements on this site. Maybe some are worth criticizing, anyway no pressure dude. |
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
| Ah, With that "pressure" I did not mean that your additions are making me feel the pressure... I meant the recommendations XD You go like "There's this good article..." And I go like "Holy crap, more public... Will they find any flaws?"... It's like... part of me wants more people to read it - hey, I wrote it for that purpose - and the other part wants to keep that number to a minimum XD About that article.. it's more like they're criticising every single 'ship in the series... To begin with, we would need to eliminate that stupid "every ship was sunk when he died"... Because as we all perfectly know, He didn't. |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| Ok :D |
"One way, Jesus, You're the only one that I could live for! You are the way, the truth and the life. We live by faith and not by sight... " |
| lol, failed troll is failed. |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| I just felt like I have to write here a few words of admiration Mau-chan. Good job with catching all of those moments that you have broadly explained. Still, I don't think about Kallen like "oh, she's that bi***", but this text change my mind a lot and now I can see clearly that Kallen had other priorities than Lelouch. Just hope that more people would see it and, just like me, understand what it was like (just like with that scene with refrain which always looked for me like "I need you coz I love you", and now it's more like "Japan needs you, bastard!"). Once again, good job ^^. |
 |
| May Qrko damn you, are you planning to stalk me till the end of my days? >.< [/inside joke] I don't really think that she's a bitch, I just think in R2 she's acting really immature and is annoying in that "OMG... shut up... Just... Shut. Up. Episode, give me some CC pl0x." kinda way. And some might remember - those priorities, I was talking about them even before the Order betrayed Lelouch-dono - Since the beginning I knew that if Karen had to choose - Zero or Japan - she would 100% ALWAYS choose Japan - The idea of her eloping with Lelouch, leaving everything behind was just unbelievable, and I think many people just didn't think to look at it that way. Besides (what I already covered), could you really imagine a woman living with a man whose face, name AND character is completely unkonwn to her? Because as soon as she realises it's Lelouch, she starts hating his guts. She tries to convince herself that she doesn't probably (because she knows they still need him), but she does... What is being masked by classic romcom developments - "Oh look, she falls on him, and he can feel her boobs!", "Oh look he is in a cramped costume with her, and they can feel each other breaths, they are embarassed!", and since in romcoms the girl main hero has most physical contact with is the "true end", people seem to think in R2 it works the same way apparently... As for the refrain... Well the problem is that none of those arguments make the case clearly white or black by itself... It's just that there are so many of those little things that the case turns black (as in: negative :P) anyway. If the rest of the little things said "OK, this relationship is believable", I'm willing to bend some of those, what kalulots tend to not understand - It's not that I hate Kalulu because I hate Karen (though I do), It's just that I genuinely don't see a way to implement it into the story without bending the characters' personalities and plot itself... |
MauroxSep 10, 2010 5:36 AM
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
Maurox said: May Qrko damn you, are you planning to stalk me till the end of my days? >.< [/inside joke] And for one day more Mau o/. Maurox said: she would 100% ALWAYS choose Japan You know, I think that this line is probably the best way to show everybody who cheers for Kalulu, that they're wrong. Speaking in the easiest posibble way - when you truly love somebody you place that person before anything else and as You said there's no doubt what Karen would choose. Maurox said: What is being masked by classic romcom developments - "Oh look, she falls on him, and he can feel her boobs!", "Oh look he is in a cramped costume with her, and they can feel each other breaths, they are embarassed!" That was irritating. Tbh I don't have anything against Karen, I don't dislike her, but these scenes were just... stupid. |
WStarSep 11, 2010 2:32 PM
| |
You know, I think that this line is probably the best way to show everybody who cheers for Kalulu, that they're wrong. If only they were willing to look at it logically... But hey, those arguments mean nothing! Okouchi and Karen's poem says otherwise (Though I wonder if they really do... Because if they're as ambiguous as the "lelouch-is-dead" statements...), so THAT must be true. To hell with logical reasoning. |
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
 well, sorry for dragging on >"Dragging on" >>Writes about one fifth of my average post xD Just stumbled here by chance, and since you posted this year I thought I might just add in a few words ;) When it comes to plausibility of relationships, IMO it looks like this: CC>Shirley>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>Karen Many people were bringing up Euphemia IIRC, but TBH I wonder how much water does this hold... Somehow I have a feeling that his statement might have been somewhat metaphorical and if not, I wouldn't really think of it in real relationship terms, but rather a "puppy love". Keep in mind he was sent to Japan when he was seven, so he might have thought that Euphie was pretty for a girl around his age or that it's fun to play around together. One of the specials actually shows that He, Nanally and Euphie used to spend quite a lot of time together, so if anything, that's how I would interpret it. And Shirley would be very plausible if not for the fact that she's... well, dead. She definitely has gotten closer than Karen to understanding and connecting emotionally with Lelouch before she died. And Lelouch definitely cared for her more than for Karen. And sure, everyone can believe whatever they want, it's just that Kalulots' arguments were getting pretty ridiculous at the time I wrote this analysis. Honestly, this wouldn't have been made of they just said "OK, We think Karen is awesome, we wish Lelouch ended up with her canonically because relationship with CC/Shirley/Whatever doesn't make sense". FINE. You don't like CCxLulu, I'M FINE WITH THAT. But don't say that "Karen understood Lelouch", much less that "She was the only one who understood him", because that just means you haven't taken a proper look at the source material. Same with their relationship. Lelouch had zero interest in her outside of the "colleagues-friends" and "Karen kicks ass in mecha" (Which BTW is also pretty sketchy IMO since we've already established in the first season that her skills were around Jeremiah's level, only later she gets more and more OP mechas) relationship. And the point of this entire topic is to prove that she didn't really love him either, so I won't repeat that. Anyway, thanks for reading and thanks for posting :] Though the series might be dead, my love for Lelouch-dono is forever young~! xD Over and out. Maurox PS: The [img] tags don't work anymore? Haven't posted on MAL for two-three years now, so I don't really know what's going on in here >_> |
MauroxOct 17, 2013 6:19 PM
-=Real, 100% Lelouch Lamperouge Zealot=- |
| YES YES YES :D finally someone proving Lelouch x Kallen sucks :D I always hated Kallen she is so naive,stupid and immature. Lelouch x C.C all the way <3 |
| I am a human. |
| I believe that only C.C. who deserve Lelouch in the end |
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