| To make it short: Main Team - good. Aeolia's Vision of CB - good ideas with gray-line execution. Alejandro's CB - Bad. Ribbonz CB - Disillusioned Evil And no CB is not that idealistic. The organization was pulling the strings behind the world for 200 years and everything was perfectly preplanned, even if neither main team, alejandro or ribbons knew of what was the end-game. Aeolia was a great man, he thought of a lot of possibilities and world-unification had to be only the first stage in his yet-to-be-revealed plan. It was not idealistic, it was perfectly calculated. Of course the plans fell apart thanks to Alejandro - had CB not been wrecked like that and remained in shadows after the unification(think - instead of A-LAWS or Innovators), Aeolia's plan would have gone further. And yet, Alejandro messed it up AND YET It was still a possibility in Aeolia's plan. Certainly main plan is damaged a lot now, but, apparently, Aeolia's plan can still partially succeed, no matter what Ribbons or CB do. You have to understand that world peace is just a step - not endgame. And what is so wrong about using any means possible for a higher goal? Thats the only way which actually works - you can't achieve anything without getting your hands dyed in blood. AS long as endgame plan is success, cost is nothing to whine about. Thats how the world works - people who are overly-idealistic and stuff and foolishly think that "love will change the world" will never succeed. We never get what we want the easy way. Why? Because thats real life. To get something you have to step over the corpses and wishes of others. |
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| As I see it, CB's goal from the start was amazingly well thought out, however Alejandro and Trinity fucked most of that up by killing innocent people and leaking Gundam tech data. If you didn't notice, the goal was to get the world to unite to fight a common enemy, CB. CB mostly only targeted strategic military outposts that where "armed", so the killing wasn't as devastating as it would be if say one nation went to war with another. In-fact less people probably died due to CB's actions overall. In retrospect, if things went according to plan and Trinity didn't show up and data to make the fake engines didn't get leaked, the world would be the same as it is right now in season 2 only with less powerful mecha, without corrupt androids clones, and without an opposing force that isn't CB. It would be CB vs the world nations. On a side note I think having the war show up at your front steps is a good way for people to understand what other nations are going through and a good way to rally people for a common cause. As Saji pointed out several times, he had no idea that such things where going on around him until people he knew where affected. |
^)^ DeathfireD ^)^ Anime Alliance P2P Network *OPEN FOR NEW MEMBERS* |
| all i have to say is that the goal is too far-fetched and only possible when you are dead. eternal peace never existed and will never exist. |
Frito said: all i have to say is that the goal is too far-fetched and only possible when you are dead. eternal peace never existed and will never exist. But, well , you see, that was not the goal of Aeolia. That was not the goal he planned..."Unifying" the world was a first step. Just a step. geezer said: Well, it is wrong imo. First, who believes that you can really end war, whether with violence or without? To think that killing people for a "higher goal" can lead to success IS already idealistic to me. You can name many "if xyz hadn't messed up", "if blahblah" cases, but fact is: it HAPPENED. Ribbons and Alejandro DID show up. And in reality, it won't be much different. People like that always exist and they will make it impossible to have world peace. You can end the war. Either make sure that both sides are crumbled to dust so much that they can't fight anyone and actually have to coexist to survive OR make sure that both sides see you as incarnation of evil. Perhaps i worded it out wrong- world unity. Correctly planned out, as a platform for whatever next leap is, but,however had not xyz... Yes, people like that always exist, hence the backup plans. We do not know on how much damage Aeolia's plan got from appearance of Innovators, though. geezer said: And also, where do you pull the line between "higher goal" and "damage"? Humanity has clearly defined a line which says that Human Dignity is inviolable. The moment you cross that line, you already violate this law. So if you say that the intention to eradicate war is a "higher goal" and that for that it is allowed to cross this line, what will become of the line in the future? It will cause an avalanche of other line-crossings - and everyone will have difficulties to judge when it is allowed and when not. For instance, a more exaggerated example: If two people start fighting, verbally and physically abusing each other, the third person can step in and kill both of them. That way, he eradicated "war" and maintained peace. Great. We have peace. Finally. Woo-hoo, the higher goal has been achieved! To me, CB is not much different from this third person, except that it also kills people who are not even directly involved in the original conflict. Human Dignity? Its just an illusion, as well as the whole moral system. We are animals, who think that their level of intelligence make them above other animal species. There's no such thing as clear cut line, everyone, depending on their moral system, will have the line at the different point. You can't have "black", bad and "white", good side as the whole field is the line of "gray". We cross the lines every day and we do not notice that just because humans are ignorant and egoistic enough to only see the individual line of their own, disregarding the others. Yes, if the whole setting was, let's say ~50 humans enclosed in one tight space and two of them started bickering, eliminating them would not only make the place retain the stability, but would also save oxygen for the others. Here you have one line. Situation changes - line goes somewhere else, just because of our perception of it. And, oh, I do not remember CB killing people not "involved" in conflict. Thrones doing the insubordinate act of destroying civilians is not "cb". They broke out of the way set for goal, thus organization tried to eliminate them. In Aeolia's case, massacring thousands of scientists just to keep green-GN-Drive technology a secret was justifiable, in regards of the endgame goal we do not know yet. In Meister's case, killing all those who were inside that conflict is justifiable too. Collateral damage is justifiable too, since its not the intentions or ends that required it, its just side effect of means. Killing, genocide, war-wagging - if the endgame goal achieved is counted as GOOD and if the one who achieved that remains a victor - then he is good too. IF he looses - he is bad, because he could not achieve ends he wanted, only having the means as result. In the end - its result that matters. |
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| i never talked about unity, i was talking about eternal peace. |
geezer said: unity and world peace - those two are connected. CB's main goal was to eradicate war - which means pretty much the same as peace. world union just might be a step to achieve this peace. Unless you want unity with people killing each other inside of the so-called "union", world unity and peace don't make much of a difference. Because of that, I wonder why CB wants world unity and peace if they do not want to ensure human rights? If human rights are an illusion, then it suggests that CB is illusional, too? Anyway, judging from your viewpoint on human dignity being an illusion etc., I see that there is no point in further discussions because our values' foundations are totally different. I think just like those values can never be in accordance with each other, there will never be a world unity either. CB's "public goal" was war eradication. Team believed it, but its clear now that it was not the final goal and they needed the "unity" just for a certain period of time. It all depends on endgame goal, which, as Eiffman, Ribbons and others have stated has nothing to do with "world peace" or "eternal peace" or "united world". We will only be able to decide if what happened/is happening is worth it, when we actually know why the frack they want it. Yes, CB is illusion. A clever one. Either illusion of peace or illusion of evil. Depending on how plan goes, humanity comes to believe into one of those illusions. On how it all went, Gundams became illusion of destruction, just because of being "exotic" enough. CB did good on advertising, but thats all they were. In fact, the carnage which happened was brought on by world powers who, instead of wanting to destroy gundams, wanted to capture them. Few nukes or other WMDs would have solved the problems, however it was never about destroying, and even destruction itself, int he world as it was, would have required a joint mission, giving the illusion of unity. Yes, all what was needed is for whole world to believe that they are on the same side. Forever. It does not matter if Earth Federation lasts 4 years, 10 years or whole hundred. Unification itself, even if temporary was needed for next step. And yes, values can never go in accordance with each other. Nations can never join under one flag for long periods of time. Aeolia calculated that the time EArth Federation would last would be enough for that. Thus in the end it comes to that what i wrote at beginning: Main Team - good. Aeolia's Vision of CB - good ideas with gray-line execution. Alejandro's CB - Bad. Ribbonz CB - Disillusioned Evil Is whole CB system or The Plan good? that remains to be seen. |
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| this is zero requiem all over again. all the hate will be soaked in by the CB team and have the whole world rally behind them or against them. either way, it will achieve the same thing. |
| Well, to be fair that was their goal last season, the eradification of war. Their goal this season is the extermination of A-LAWS, no? They view the current state of the world as their own fault, and dislike the way A-LAWS carries itself, so they're attempting to destroy A-LAWS, am I not right? Of course, the world is "unified" in A-LAWS and the Federation, so this could perhaps be part two of Aeolia's plan? Also, to be fair, is there such a thing as straight cut good or bad? CB understands their actions are harsh, but take them for their goals of bettering the world. While that's good in some respects, they're taking actions that shouldn't be taken in the eyes of some(Read: Saji and Co.). In the end, good and bad are nothing but meaningless words based on your perspective. Or that's how I look at it. It'll explain itself, we still have over 3/4 the season to unravel the rest of this. Just keep watching, we can check back on this thread in a month or two ;) |
BakayaroNov 9, 2008 3:48 PM
"I'd suck you~" Berri||Desu Ne? |
| I thought they were idealistic and hypocritical when I first started watching G00 and they revealed their "plan" to end warfare by forced intervention. Because there will always be conflicts in the world. It's just human nature, and they can't change that. I dunno if it's good or bad, I guess the idea is good, but it's a bit... idealistic. Fai said: Thus in the end it comes to that what i wrote at beginning: Main Team - good. Aeolia's Vision of CB - good ideas with gray-line execution. Alejandro's CB - Bad. Ribbonz CB - Disillusioned Evil Is whole CB system or The Plan good? that remains to be seen. What is Aeolia's vision of CB though? I don't think that's fully revealed yet. Professor Eiffman was about to say it and then they killed him. |
MapleRose said: What is Aeolia's vision of CB though? I don't think that's fully revealed yet. Professor Eiffman was about to say it and then they killed him. No, it was not revealed yet, but Mizushima stated quite a few times that "Aeolia's wish and plan is NOT BAD THING. Its not Evil. Its good", thus we can forget all the "world domination" as masterplan...it won't be as easy to guess, i guess... |
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Fai said: MapleRose said: What is Aeolia's vision of CB though? I don't think that's fully revealed yet. Professor Eiffman was about to say it and then they killed him. No, it was not revealed yet, but Mizushima stated quite a few times that "Aeolia's wish and plan is NOT BAD THING. Its not Evil. Its good", thus we can forget all the "world domination" as masterplan...it won't be as easy to guess, i guess... Dammit, there goes my theory of Haros taking over the world as the real CB plan XD |
| there's still a chance. haro's ftw! |
| The Celestial Beings are not the good guys, but their role is to ensure and maintain balance in the world, prevent wars, and commit armed intervention against nations with a militaristic agenda. Although the intention of the Celestial Beings are pure good, their actions and methods can be considered as bad or evil, depending on your perspective. Generally, the Celestial Beings are good guys, but in the eyes of their enemies, they are devils. In a sense, they are anti-heroes and to some degree, antagonistic. However, that doesn't change their good intentions of creating a peaceful world and beating up the troublemakers in the world. Their enemies include the Alliance, the Chinese Federation, and other nations with a military agenda. Their base is in space, not specifically mentioned as to whether the base is located on a space colony, moon, or another planet throughout the series though. |
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| you just said they are not good guys and then say their good guys. you mean they are simply arbitrators of world conflict? |
| I posted this in one of the episodes dicussion already, but here it is again: wakka9ca said: Ok, I mentioned this last year when season 1 was airing but I repeat this again: Anyone notice how the underlying plot involving CB, Innovators and Aoelia's plan looks vaguely familiar to Isaac Asimov's Foundation series? The end of season 1 nearly convinced me otherwise but now we're back into conspiracies and secret agendas.. and of course... utopic plans for humanity.... some spoiler for Foundation that may be related to G00 I believe Aoelia's plan is along the same line....And I'm sure that Ribbons said that EVEN HIM CAN'T ACCESS the highest level of Veda. This means that NO ONE knows what Aeolia really planned.... So can I can ask you the following question: In Foundation, who are the "bad" guys? The First Foundation, the Second one or Gaia? Can the Mule be considered someone evil... or simply someone who is forced to survive by dominating others because of his physical defect? To answer this question, one has to realize that Gundam 00 is not Pokemon, not a children show. There are no clear-cut evil or good in this series, only enduring ideals and personal interests.....So it really depends on your own view.... But Ali is the perfect example of someone who find pleasure in others misfortune and worst: find pleasure in killing others...a truly despicable man indeed... As for Ribbons...well...we don't fully know yet his plans....As for CB, who can guarantee they are not acting under the subtle influence of Aeolia's shadow? And also, not to sound like the Innovators but... evil is necessary for good to exist....who can guarantee that people like Ribbons, the A-LAWS or Ali are not part of the evolution. Without them, the world may not have evolved. Without antagonists, there are no protagonists....Without a purpose to fight, the world cannot change. I think Wang Liu Mei's ideology is partially right....But then, where does moral stand in all of this? I often joke that in the current world/society that is, moral is often just an excuse or a luxury for the hypocrisy of the rich....Talk about moral to the billion people starving in the world. Where did our moral go? Honestly, I don't think people really care because we are too occupied doing other luxury stuff (like typing this message on this forum....thus the hypocrisy).... Only in an "evolved" society true moral can be established. But then, in an higher form of civilization, moral is no longer necessary..... lol at the utilitarianism view of the members..... but that is really what's going on in this world....you can be as romantic as you want but the truth is in front of you...Whether you are an observer, an active player or a victim, it's hard to judge what's right or what's wrong. Some things are clearly not right (abuse, rape, war(???)) War is the trickest...for what reason? Can it ever be justified? Isn't it just some politician's game of power and dominanc, while he or she never had to fight in the frontline? Is it to justfiy some divine cause or eradicate all who differ in opinion with you? As you can see, humans are still FAR from reaching true wisdom and unity as a species....But we can hope that we will get there one day... |
wakka9caDec 3, 2008 7:48 PM
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
wakka9ca said: how are the innovators evil? if you ask mr. logic, he would tell you that all they have done so far is oppose the enemy, who are CB. innovators are the ones who pulled the necessary strings to get this far on the plan. hence they are neither bad nor good. they are the ones who initiated the un/necessary actions. bring the world together, forming a global alliance between countries. they are the one's who are suppose to be opposed by now and bring forth an up comming doom. in which people will be motivated to go to space. if only they have gotten rid of the gundams earlier then the plan would go accordingly. but from a writers perspective where's the fun in that?I posted this in one of the episodes dicussion already, but here it is again: wakka9ca said: Ok, I mentioned this last year when season 1 was airing but I repeat this again: Anyone notice how the underlying plot involving CB, Innovators and Aoelia's plan looks vaguely familiar to Isaac Asimov's Foundation series? The end of season 1 nearly convinced me otherwise but now we're back into conspiracies and secret agendas.. and of course... utopic plans for humanity.... some spoiler for Foundation that may be related to G00 I believe Aoelia's plan is along the same line....And I'm sure that Ribbons said that EVEN HIM CAN'T ACCESS the highest level of Veda. This means that NO ONE knows what Aeolia really planned.... So can I can ask you the following question: In Foundation, who are the "bad" guys? The First Foundation, the Second one or Gaia? Can the Mule be considered someone evil... or simply someone who is forced to survive by dominating others because of his physical defect? To answer this question, one has to realize that Gundam 00 is not Pokemon, not a children show. There are no clear-cut evil or good in this series, only enduring ideals and personal interests.....So it really depends on your own view.... But Ali is the perfect example of someone who find pleasure in others misfortune and worst: find pleasure in killing others...a truly despicable man indeed... As for Ribbons...well...we don't fully know yet his plans....As for CB, who can guarantee they are not acting under the subtle influence of Aeolia's shadow? And also, not to sound like the Innovators but... evil is necessary for good to exist....who can guarantee that people like Ribbons, the A-LAWS or Ali are not part of the evolution. Without them, the world may not have evolved. Without antagonists, there are no protagonists....Without a purpose to fight, the world cannot change. I think Wang Liu Mei's ideology is partially right....But then, where does moral stand in all of this? I often joke that in the current world/society that is, moral is often just an excuse or a luxury for the hypocrisy of the rich....Talk about moral to the billion people starving in the world. Where did our moral go? Honestly, I don't think people really care because we are too occupied doing other luxury stuff (like typing this message on this forum....thus the hypocrisy).... Only in an "evolved" society true moral can be established. But then, in an higher form of civilization, moral is no longer necessary..... lol at the utilitarianism view of the members..... but that is really what's going on in this world....you can be as romantic as you want but the truth is in front of you...Whether you are an observer, an active player or a victim, it's hard to judge what's right or what's wrong. Some things are clearly not right (abuse, rape, war(???)) War is the trickest...for what reason? Can it ever be justified? Isn't it just some politician's game of power and dominanc, while he or she never had to fight in the frontline? Is it to justfiy some divine cause or eradicate all who differ in opinion with you? As you can see, humans are still FAR from reaching true wisdom and unity as a species....But we can hope that we will get there one day... |
| lol...where in my post did I say the Innovators were evil??.... I think I made myself clear in my post that evil and good are irrelevant.... And I was trying to convince others that the Innovators are not "evil"... but just as necessary to the plan as CB....I wonder how did my long post went into the direction of "Innovators are evil".... But be careful, Ribbons may have hidden agendas... And Regene seems to be dissatisfied with him....That must mean there are internal conflct between Innovators....which means they are not perfect.. On top of that Ribbons CANNOT access the highest level of Veda, unlike what he claim he can do...That means that nothing is set into stone yet and Aeolia may just be manipulating him too...like he is doing with CB....But all this has NOTHING to do with evil or good... |
bla bla bla The endless debate between fans and haters. At one point, after spending a lot of time on MAL, you just realize it's totally pointless.Niko-kun said: On MAL, everyone who has used the lame rating system becomes a critic and an intellectual by default, haven't you heard? |
wakka9ca said: well i was reading your post thoroughly and it misled me. sorry for the pun. anyways. im one of the few who believes that there's is no good or bad, which makes for better television. when you watch something on the edge, not knowing what is about to happen. i believe that calls for an applause.lol...where in my post did I say the Innovators were evil??.... I think I made myself clear in my post that evil and good are irrelevant.... And I was trying to convince others that the Innovators are not "evil"... but just as necessary to the plan as CB....I wonder how did my long post went into the direction of "Innovators are evil".... But be careful, Ribbons may have hidden agendas... And Regene seems to be dissatisfied with him....That must mean there are internal conflct between Innovators....which means they are not perfect.. On top of that Ribbons CANNOT access the highest level of Veda, unlike what he claim he can do...That means that nothing is set into stone yet and Aeolia may just be manipulating him too...like he is doing with CB....But all this has NOTHING to do with evil or good... |
| It depends on each individual's position and circumstances, as to view them as "good" or "bad". Their goals are to end wars and to show aggression towards countries with a military agenda. However, as soon as the Innovators make their appearances, it appears that the planet Earth is rather a tiny planet, when their goals are to conquer the universe rather than just a tiny planet whose size is smaller than some other planet's moon. Personally, out of so many entities within the "Gundam 00" universe, I like the Celestial Beings best. Certainly, most of the members are unfit to do as they do, but at the same time, they are trying their best out of good intentions, unlike the Federation and the A-Laws or the Innovators who attack innocent people in the name of justice for merely accomplishing their unreasonable objectives. Thus, the Celestial Beings are good. |
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