Genjitsu Shugi Yuusha no Oukoku Saikenki Episode 2 Discussion

Jul 12, 2021 4:12 PM

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Jan 2021

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Shingster said:
Magic sure has become a valuable power for this world. But man that consciousness copy power really is one that suits Souma pretty well. While beautiful the cotton fields do take up a lot of space and take time to grow as well. Having too much of something thats unable to be sold for a good price sure is problem. Still economic reforms are going to take some time it seems while at the same time Souma's lacking in capable retainers as well. Using the yearly broadcast as a means to recruit people from across the kingdom sure was one hell of an idea. But that speech that Souma sure was a good one and showed well his own personal views. Overall a solid ep that did an excellent job at showcasing not only Souma's gradual expansion as a character and king but also how needed his reforms are as a result of the dire state the countries in. While gradual looks like Liscia's impressions of Souma is changing. Looking forward to seeing what will happen next as the cast gathers. Its quite impressive that Souma has so much knowledge of economics for someone his age though.

IIRC in first episode Souma mentioned that he was studying stuff to go into beauratics before being Isekai'd. It might be a different profession though, I can't remember the specifics

Capy is still best mod.

Jul 12, 2021 4:21 PM

#102

Abredon

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Jan 2021

168

MugenNoShirayuki said:

Abredon said:

MugenNoShirayuki said:

Abredon said:

MugenNoShirayuki said:

Abredon said:

MugenNoShirayuki said:

Abredon said:

MugenNoShirayuki said:

Abredon said:

MugenNoShirayuki said:

I assume it has centralization because the MC has all the information he needs about the state of the economy after three days. Where did the MC collect all this data from, if there was not already a centralized system in place to collect it? How were the people who went over this data beforehand SO incompetent that they couldn't make the obvious connection between "all our farmers are making cotton" and "cotton is not making money"? Again, this is BASIC stuff. When dealing with products in the quantity implied here (an entire country's worth) there needs to be some form of distribution outside of the kingdom. And as we saw, all this information was available to the MC, so he got it from SOMEwhere. And what he did with that information was form a very, very basic conclusion about what to do that anyone with even a cursory knowledge of supply and demand would be able to understand and come up with themselves. So I do not find it believable that he was the ONLY person who could have made this connection, no.

What makes you think it's only been 3 days?
It was 3 days alone before the king abdicated and the MC became king.

Then the time before Liscia learned of the change and arrived back at the castle. By then he had arranged the sale of the jewels and received the money. No airplanes, trains, or automobiles, so that happened by horse, taking at least a few days.

It has been at least a day after that.

So it has been at least a week that the MC has been looking into the problem, and more likely 2 to 3 weeks, if not more.

The first thing he would have looked into after getting initial revenue would be the farming situation. The Nobles have to provide reports to the crown, and the kingdom will have spies and inspector reports too. Cross referencing those would quickly reveal the situation.

No centralization necessary, just normal Feudal era tax records and intelligence reports.

Tax records and reports to the crown ARE centralization. The kingdom is gathering all their economic data in one place, aka centralizing it. As you said, all this information was already available to the crown, so the notion that with that data (which apparently people were collecting, but no one was actually going over) only the MC could understand the problem at hand and how to fix it strains credulity.

Then centralization dates back to the dawn of writing. Such records (tally sticks) were the very first writing invented. And yet, these VERY types of problems occurred under many governments.

That is NOT centralization. Centralization is when the central government itself controls, monitors, and directly manages all the reports.

In Feudalism the lesser Nobles (knights/barons) manage and report to higher Nobles (earls/dukes), who collect, revise, and report to the King. At each stage, there is opportunity for deception, so the King has spies and investigators checking some of the reports (there is never enough staff to verify every report). Since these spies and investigators may be corrupt, there may be other spies/investigators checking on them.

The documentation available to the King is suspect, and the King cannot dictate what to produce EXCEPT on Crown lands (directly held by the King).

The Nobles as a whole often have more power than the King, and can force actions (see the history behind the Magna Carta for more information about that)

And you haven't yet seen the solution the MC comes up with.

You don't seem to understand what I mean by centralization. What I'm referring to is the fact that the king gathers all the information from his kingdom together and has authority over it, which he does.

Even though the information travels through the individual cogs in the machine, it all collects together in the center, under the king, who has the authority to do whatever he likes with this information. Nowhere has it been suggested that this society is anything less than an absolute monarchy with the king having total authority over the running of his kingdom, at this point in the series every decision we've seen made has been made with unilateral control per the monarch with no interference from any outside party, and not even an allusion to the existence of an outside party interfering with the king's judgments per, say, a great charter of what the king can and cannot do.

The king is the one in control of the kingdom, hence why the nobles report to him. Whether there is the opportunity for deception or not in their reports is irrelevant to the fact that all the power lies in the central government of the kingdom itself. That speaks to competence of the system, not the system itself. That's why it's a centralized form of government, because all the power comes from the center and is dictated from the crown. We had it explained in this episode, there is an announcement room that can address the entire kingdom, which is used to give out edicts to the entire kingdom. So yes, the king DOES have the ability to dictate to the entire kingdom at his discretion, unless stated otherwise, and nothing has stated otherwise, or suggested that this is not the case. I'm working with the information I have available, which suggests that the king has absolute authority in his kingdom and has gathered together the financial reports as a form of medieval centralization of the economy.

No the King does not gather all information (he is given a selected subset by the Nobles, and gathers a small amount via his small network).
Nor does he control anything except for his personal retainers.
He can attempt to command the Nobles, but his only official authority is to demand 30 days of service of a fixed number of troops for war.
If the King commands too much, the Nobles can revoke their oath and become their own masters again..
The Feudal oath is the vassal serves the liege to a limited extent in exchange for protection.

AGAIN, look into the Magna Carta, forced upon King John and King Henry III by the Barons.
The King has no true power except what is granted by the Nobles, and that can be withdrawn.

Everything you mentioned is about OUR medieval history. Where is any of this stated to be the system that THIS fantasy kingdom operates on? Show me the Magna Carta for THIS medieval society, show me where we've seen any mention of these restrictions, because I don't remember them.

That is a spoiler, and except as otherwise mentioned, our history is the basis of any similar structure in an isekai world.
Even Ancient China and Japan had these problems, where the ostensible ruler was effectively limited in authority. (Although China came up with a unique solution to corrupt Noblemen and bureaucrats with it's Judicial system)

So to be clear, you're stating that I'm incorrect because I drew conclusions from the information that was presented to me, rather than rely on information that I had no way at all of knowing? I'm incorrect, certainly, I'll grant you that, but at least you could have mentioned at the beginning that it was something that would be explained later rather than state it was something I should take as true without it being established in the world already

I'm not going to go off of the assumption that an isekai society would necessarily be identical to our history. In our history, a king didn't have the capacity to address all of his subjects at once through magic sky projections. This is a society where magic is a tangible thing that exists. To assume that the same structures and restrictions of how society must function as is the case of ours is to reject any potentiality that magic would play a role in societal infrastructure. We've seen magic have countless applications to day to day life in this society already, so saying that it MUST follow the same structure of our feudal history with no evidence of that being the case is not a reasonable statement for me, who has learned nothing about the worldbuilding accept what I've already seen, to draw. Especially when there has been no hint of any of those structures in place currently and there IS evidence of magic being used as a tool of governance already, with the magic room to address every citizen in the kingdom.

Since you say that this world developed its history to be a model off of ours, I look forward to seeing the explanations as to why that is the case.

No, you are incorrect because you made a fallacious extrapolation based upon incomplete information.
The show stated that except for certain things (lighting, showers, and a couple more), the world is at a state similar to our middle ages. Therefore, except for the specifically listed exceptions, you should look to our history during the middle ages.

Assuming anything not mentioned is automatically different from our world is a fallacy, and directly contrary to the introduction of episode 2.
The magic broadcast was stated to rarely have been used - basically only for once a year announcements.

What the MC specifically outlines is that:

"Excluding the magic and the unusual creatures, the level of technology in this country is not very high, the Industrial Revolution is far off, and the feudal system is still in place."

That refers to the system itself as a feudal one, but the basic structure of a feudal system does not necessitate a specific form of feudalism, or any given structure of oversight necessarily identical to our own as you assert. It does not mean that everything in this world is similar to the common interpretations of our medieval society. For example, Liscia is a woman attending a military academy, something that would be unheard of in "our" middle ages. So no, there are already blatant diversions from our medieval societies.

"The magic broadcast was stated to rarely have been used - basically only for once a year announcements."

To quote Liscia:

"It's usually used for New Year's greetings from the king, or to issue important edicts and such."

Right there, a tangible example of magic being implemented in streamlining the process of medieval governance in a way that would not be possible in our medieval society.

The Feudal system is a specific construct. There are inherent issues with it (one of which is weak centralization). EVERY Feudal system in our world has had the same issues. You asserted these inherent issues didn't exist.

Here is the Feudal system:
A Vassal gives his land to a Liege in exchange for protection.
The Liege gives it back in exchange for a fixed amount of military service per year of a fixed number of soldiers.
There are other sundries like taxes and Court duties, but that is the concept.
Lesser Nobles swear to Higher Nobles, and only a few are directly under the King.
There have been many rebellions of Nobles during history, in every Feudal system established. The Shogunate wars in Japan are one example, as is The Wars of the Roses.

If the magic broadcast weren't there, there would be Post Riders, message birds, and Town Criers doing the job. This would delay such announcements by only about a day. Not much streamlining there.
Those probably exist too, and are used for less critical things.
And new years occurs only once a year. Important edicts even less often (given that the important edicts were mentioned after the new year's greetings). So it got used once, maybe twice in a given year.

Oh, and as for Liscia attending a military academy, there are historical examples of women warriors, even in feudal societies.
Japanese noble house guards were women trained with Naginatas.
The Knights Templar had women in the order.
The Order of the Hatchet was a Women warrior order.

You are wrong on every count.

AbredonJul 12, 2021 4:38 PM

Jul 12, 2021 4:34 PM

#103

MugenNoShirayuki

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Feb 2021

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