Monogatari Series: Final Season
| As seen in the last episode , Araragi chooses not to let the darkness consume Ougi . She is the physical manifestation of his own self criticism , so with him saving 'her' , what does this symbolize in regards to his self growth ? - Is it that he is finally accepting himself , that it is okay for him to be alive ? - Is it in regards to accepting that he made the 'right' decisions in saving all the characters in the series ? - Is it him acknowledging that despite not knowing if his decisions were right , he accepts that if given another chance he would do the exact same (ie. save shinobu, catch hitagi falling , save Ougi etc.) For those with more insight on why he saved Ougi , please do share ! Thanks . |
| This is just what on top of my head, feel free to take it as a grain of salt. In isn't as far as 'is it okay for him to live?' I see this as nonsense spouted by Gaen to persuade koyomi into killing Ougi. (If you're familiar with Nisio-work, or have read Zaregoto, is level of nonsense is still too low) Ougi is Koyomi's desire to criticize himself, not toward the choice he made but on the consequence he gets. Conservation between Ougi and Tsukihi is actually quite interesting, it is talking about "True Identity" while at the same time also also talk about "Right body" This give a reminder that Ougi, despite being born from koyomi desire, is not koyomi, saving Ougi does not mean saving Araragi. That is about "Right body" Ougi is not koyomi, Ougi is Ougi, the relation they have is like father and son, just that it's as the same as the son with ugly nature. An existence that exist as symbol to criticize his father. Ougi is a symbol of criticism toward koyomi himself. Saving Ougi mean Araragi accept the criticism he feel toward himself. As it'd been mentioned by Araragi himself. (Not sure if this is just in novel or not, cant recall well), he'd known the true identity of Ougi from the start, but he run away from it, he turned blind eyes to it, he fled from his own criticism, he didn't dare to confront it. Gaen's plan forces him to confront his own criticism, and he done a great job on how to handle his matter with Ougi. If he chooses to let darkness swallow Ougi, that mean he's still the same, runaway from his own criticism. If he choose this, I doubt there will be no future 'Ougi' to appear. But he choose to accept it, see it eyes to eyes, confront his own criticism. How he deal with his criticism or the conclusion he got after confronting his own criticism, is only him that know, or maybe we can see it with future story. But one thing for sure, he's not run way from it anymore. Lastly, yeah the choice made is the right choice, what he's not satisfied with is the consequence, he would still make the same choice but maybe choose different method for the best. For example, he would still choose to molest Hajichuji if giving him another chance, but he will choose a different method to maximize his ecstasy. |
CactiiAug 25, 2017 9:33 PM
| Or maybe he just wanted another girl in his harem. :p |
| Omne Solum Forti Patria |
| Or just ignore my nonsense on above post. It's actually more simple than anything. Araragi just wanted to tell us that who the best girl is. Araragi saved his and Shinobu's child. That's a flag man. everyone else is just a minuscule factor in the grand scheme of Araragi's harem. |
Cactii said: Lastly, yeah the choice made is the right choice, what he's not satisfied with is the consequence, he would still make the same choice but maybe choose different method for the best. For example, he would still choose to molest Hajichuji if giving him another chance, but he will choose a different method to maximize his ecstasy. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that, glad I'm not the only one who reached these conclusions. Can you explain what you mean by this last part though? I'm not fully understanding how Araragi will act differently with the conclusion that he's not happy with his consequences. I didn't get your example. |
Clayten said: that was just a joke don't take it seriously.Cactii said: Lastly, yeah the choice made is the right choice, what he's not satisfied with is the consequence, he would still make the same choice but maybe choose different method for the best. For example, he would still choose to molest Hajichuji if giving him another chance, but he will choose a different method to maximize his ecstasy. Thanks for taking the time to explain all that, glad I'm not the only one who reached these conclusions. Can you explain what you mean by this last part though? I'm not fully understanding how Araragi will act differently with the conclusion that he's not happy with his consequences. I didn't get your example. I was making a joke that Araragi is still a lolicon no matter which choice he chooses. Ok to your question. I'm not sure if "he will act differently" is the correct word to use here. If the act here is referring to "choice/decision" then I would say no, he won't "act" differently. If the "act" here is referring to his method to approach the problem. Then yes, I think if given another chance Araragi would still choose the same choice but "act" (approach) in a different way. To make it more simple, I think, while Araragi is not satisfied with his consequence, he never doubts the choice he made is wrong. In the order of priority, what he feels about his decision come first while what he feels about his consequence come second. He's satisfied with his decision, but he's not with his consequence. His feeling for his decision is more important than his feeling for his consequence. Therefore, eventhough he didn't like the consequence he gets, he would not change his choice just to satisfied his consequence, but if given another chance, he might try to find another method/approach that would make him satisfied with his consequence too. |
Cactii said: To make it more simple, I think, while Araragi is not satisfied with his consequence, he never doubts the choice he made is wrong. In the order of priority, what he feels about his decision come first while what he feels about his consequence come second. He's satisfied with his decision, but he's not with his consequence. His feeling for his decision is more important than his feeling for his consequence. I was curious what that different method might be So he's essentially changed his perspective on his life. That does seem to connect well with everything that was talked about this season. In hindsight though I don't see him really being able to change his approach to the choices he's made. With Shinobu his only method to save her was for her to drink his blood, or with Senjogahara to catch her. It seems like he has made the best choices given what he knew at the times. Is that why Ougi told him he was right all along at the end, and why Hachikuji said he was "doing pretty well" in his decision making during their trip to hell? |
| @Clayten well, only Araragi knows how to molest loli without having FBI kicking his door, don't ask me how >_> I don't think I myself interpret it as 'he changes his perspective of life' but more of 'he sorts out the confusion inside him' (I'm not sure if the word 'confusion is the correct word to use here, but due to my lack of better vocabulary, I'll stick with it for now) Now, what is it to confuse him? Well, it's the priority between his feeling for his decision and his feeling for his consequence. It's a type of confusion that our subconscious does everyday. what is the 'correct' thing to do? what is the 'right' thing to do? For instance, you pick up a wallet with a lot of money, should you return it or should you take it? Some time this confusion takes form in insecurity. For instance, a person wants to share his idea about the series, but afraid of being called out on his logic, lead him to only able to give a vague reply. what is more important to him? To share his view clearly and improve his understanding? Or to protect his pride from being called out? Another example, you're deserted with 20 people. Your supplies only enough to feed 10 people until the rescue arrived. Would you kill 10 people to save the other 10? or would you let all of them live a little longer and dies all together afterward due to the lack of food? logically speaking, killing 10 people to save the other 10 is the correct decision. Human has limitless potential, one of the 10 maybe the one who finds the cure to cancer, even without that far-fetched possibility, saving 10 when you can is logically 'correct'. But is that a 'right' thing to do? It's cruel, it's inhuman, who would you choose to kill and who would you choose to save? would you able to live through a sin that you kill other innocent life just to save yourself? Is it a correct choice to save a child from a gorilla? Okay, enough with the demonstration of what I refer to as 'confusion'. (maybe dilemma is more correct to use here?) Before the end of Owari2, he wasn't sure himself which one is more important for him --this confusion/dilemma is what created Ougi. He knows his choice is correct. He knows it was a correct decision, but due to his dissatisfaction with his consequence, he wasn't sure if it was a 'right' thing to do. IDK if there exists another method to approach his choice, but I think Araragi himself also doesn't know for sure. That's why it is a confusion. If he knows the other method exists, it's not a confusion between his choice and consequence anymore, but a regret in approaching his choice with the wrong method. For instance, you choose to save the child from gorilla by shooting him. And afterward realize there's another method to save the child, that is a regret in your method. If given another chance you would save the child with a different method. But if you choose to save a child by shooting the gorilla and afterward knowing killing the gorilla is the only method to reach your choice of "saving the child". That's where the dilemma starts. Would you still choose to save the child even knowing what kind of negative consequence you would get from the mass? what is more important here? A life of another human being? or a life or a gorillathe reaction from the crowd? Araragi ran ways from his dilemma because of he afraid of what conclusion he will get after (over)thinking about it. He was afraid he would come to prioritize his consequence --thus choose to abandon Shinbou and the others. But the scene in hell forced him to confront it, his dilemma. And he realizes his correctness is more important than his consequence, he won't change his choice and should stop (over)worrying about consequence on his every choice. Therefore, I view Araragi's growth in this season as 'he finally able to sorts out his feeling'. He would choose what he thinks correct first, and he will deal with the consequence later. He deals with what he can see first and worry about what he can't see afterward. Lesson of the day: Molest the loli first, deal with the FBI later. |
CactiiSep 8, 2017 3:27 AM
| @Cactii Sorry about being vague in my last post, but I do understand what you're saying. Araragi, going forward, is going to always do what he feels is the right thing and not concern himself with the consequences. He wont hesitate anymore to do what he feels is the right thing. If we were to put Araragi in charge of supplies that could save 10 out of 20 people, he wouldn't give any supplies out, or he might share them out equally, so everyone would ultimately die. Araragi would shoot Harambe. Araragi would share his thoughts on a series and deal with the criticism if he's wrong, in order to get a better understanding. I kind of have mixed feelings feelings about this conclusion though. Its like the the anti-thesis to utilitarianism. You said that "logically speaking" saving 10 out of the 20 people would be the right thing to do, but most people (like Araragi) wouldn't put their feeling aside to make the hard choice of who live and dies. But doesnt that make them the bad guy to alot of people? Like the families of those who died would hate the person who decided not to give any supplies out. Someone in their family died to satisfy one mans sense of justice. And they didnt die in place of someone else, everyone in the situation died. There's no sense of justice for the families. Isn't it really heartless to put your feels before everyone else's? For some reason I feel like the show answered this question... |
| Hopefully , they animate Zoku owari as well, so we have some more closure on how he's sorted out his feelings. From reading your guys' comments, coupled with my own thoughts, I feel Araragi is now more confident in himself, his choices made, and accept the consequences for what they brought upon. In hindsight, he may have altered his course of action, but regardless, he would not change the fact that he did "act" . For him, inaction is the worst result he could ask for, just as bad as taking action and getting a bad result/consequence. Therefore his moral dilemma for this arc I feel is acceptance, and being able to move on, taking all his choices good and bad as a part of him. |
herricklukSep 11, 2017 2:18 AM
| @Clayten I'm on bsns trip, pardon my late reply I think I'm the one that should give an apology, I, again, failed to cover every aspect that is needed to be said. Another thing is my example are just come up spontaneously on the spot without putting much thought into it, as I only use it as surface-value examples, now thinking about it, 20-people examples should be removed since what Araragi was facing is not a dilemma of choice but a dilemma of priority --it's still related, but not as direct as Harambe. I can still answer your last question though, I'll cover it later. And I think using the term 'correct' and 'right' alone won't help me atriculate myself that much, I'll add the term objective 'correct' and subjective 'correct' this time. It might touch upon utilitarianism but I don't think NisiO go that far into making it like an anti-thesis. It's just that utilitarianism is not really NisiO's specialty, or I haven't seen him dive that deep into utilitarianism, unlike Urobochi whose mostsome of his work are about anti-utilitarianism. (i.e Madoka, Psycho Pass, Fate/Zero). I think you're already clear about this, but I'll just say it. What we consider as correct from objective point of view(utilitarianism, maybe) and what we consider as correct from subjective point of view are different. I know, again, that objective and subjective are probably not a completely 'correct' word but I'll still stick with it for now due to lack of better vocabulary. Araragi is a holder of the latter. Was it a correct choice to save an unknown limbless vampire in a middle of the night by giving up your life? Definitely not, from objective point of view. But from Araragi point of view, it is. I'll dive into the differences in objective 'correct' and subjective 'correct' if you want, but I assume you already know I'll end it here for now. I don't think it touches upon a clear or specific scope of utilitarianism but more of a broader scope of it. In a shorter simplified term it's like: "Objective exists, striving for objective is what we do to improve yourself and for a better result, but before the existence of Objectivity, you're an individual with your own understanding, reason, knowledge, principle, experience, success, failure, that is what defines 'yourself' and also what you shouldn't abandon just to pursuing objectivity. But you also shouldn't ignore objectivity too, therefore it's better to align your subjectivity to match with the objectivity as much as possible". In Araragi case, he saved Shinobu, that is objectively wrong while it is subjectively correct, what he did(subconsciously, at that time) to align his objectively wrong with his subjectively right is, make sure Shinobu won't be able to hurt other human beings, which is a bigger scope of what he considers as objectively right.or he just wants a loli slave. For all I know, if Araragi is put into a situation of saving 10 or killing 20, he might choose to kill himself and save the rest --he can't die anyway duhh. As long as it's the lives of loli, he's more than willing to do it. But inaction is something I hardly able to swallow as what Araragi would do, inaction would make him regret it more than anything. We see it in hell, though the context is a little different from our 20-people example-- even if he had taken no action, Senjohara would have been able to solve her problem (through kaiki), Hanekawa too, Nadeko too, but in the end, he still choose to act rather than take no action. Back to our exmaple, sure, it is a hard and cruel(edgy) decision, but IF it really were to happen, Araragi would definitely do something(without letting everyone die) while accepting the consequence of his result afterward. Even if it means to kill the other 10. We have no clear answer anyway so I don't think there's much merit or argue on what he would do in a hypothetical scenario. Let's move on to your question. Isn't it really heartless to put your feels before everyone else's?. I believe this is a question that Araragi posed to himself too. And then start to criticize himself for 'putting his feels before others''. The simplified answer and counter question would be "It might be heartless but isn't it too selfless to put other's feeling before our?" Therefore, it poses another question, "Is it alright to put our feeling before others'?" The simple answer would be Yes, it's alright but on what condition? If pursuing objective decision won't affect your subjectivity. Then do it in objective way. In this case, if putting others' feeling before you won't harm you, it's alright to put others' feeling before you. But if pursuing objective decision makes havoc in your subjectivity, then do it in subjective way. In this case, putting your feeling before other is alright and be ready to accept all kind of consequence, be it good or bad one. It's your choice, your result and it is what you've made. Accept it with both hands rather than run away from it. Sometimes, being too afraid to make choice because it opposes to objectivity, is the same as letting objectivity swallow/erases your subjectivity --which is erasing your real self. While I think the show gives a message regarding pursuing your subjective correctness, I don't think the show dive that deep into objectivity side but as it is the reason for Araragi's dilemma too, I think it is worth pulling it out and elaborate on its existence. Though it is still my personal interpretation of it, so, again, feel free to take it with a grain of salt. |
| @cactii Please... I'd wait a week for a nice substantial response like the ones you've given. Sadly I'm the kind of person who's skeptical of everything anyone says so its taken time for me to make a charitable response, and really understand the point you're getting across. I want to make sure I'm asking the right question. Oh and I did procrastinate alot. So clearly I didnt put myself in Araragi's shoes when it came to our picking and choosing 10/20 people example. I still think what I said was right about Araragi doing what he feels is right, but I myself didnt appreciate the sentiment he would be holding in such a situation. Of course he wouldn't do nothing... he'd do anything except nothing. Like you said, he'd probably act in some self-sacrifcing way, like he has throughout our story. I get that now. Looking at the harambe example I can see why you'd say its a more direct representation of the objective right vs subjective right conflict he would face. Like the zookeeper, odds are Araragi would be concerned for the childs life, and understands that a gorilla could possibly injure or kill the child. He would feel shooting harambe would be the right thing to do, regardless of knowing the consequences (like losing his job, being a target of critisism by animal lovers, ect). An adolecent Araragi would hesitate to shoot because he'd question if what he feels is the right thing really is right, because of all the possible consequences that it would create, how it would negatively effect everyone else. The new matured Araragi would look at the situation and its consequences, and embrace what he feels would be the right thing to do, without second thought. I feel you've answered my question clearly about when an individual should and shouldnt put themselves before others. I dont have any questions about that. What I am wondering about is what you mean by letting objectivity swallow/erase you. What is the consequence of that? I'm a little embrassed to even ask since it seems so obvious, but I think its one of those things that I need to be told, to know I'm right. Is it because if objectivity swallows/erases you, you wont be able to find happiness? Your personal happiness? Since it would erase your desires, beliefs, feelings, ect? I guess that's pretty much what you said... Wasn't this the conclusion Araragi reached when he was talking with Hachikuji in hell, or something like it? If it is, i feel like everything wraps up extremely well! @herrickluk From what I'v heard all the off seasons are supposed to animated, not that I can read japanese. https://twitter.com/_syoan/status/816983385541222401 . I'd also like a bit more closure as well about how Araragi acts going forward, but Hanamonogatari has done a pretty good job of that. He practically tells Kanbaru to do what it is she feels is right in her dilemma she's facing, which pretty much sums up exactly what Araragi did for the dilemmas he's faced and concluded he did the right thing. I can imagine pretty well how he'd deal with his problems going forward. |
ClaytenSep 18, 2017 10:33 PM
| @Clayten Oh, don't be embarrassed, Having the courage to ask for a better good rather summiting ourself to ignorant due to superficial pride is something to feel proud about ^_^ Yes, you're right. That is essentially what I mean. I also think the story wraps up pretty well. ^_^ |
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