Re:ZERO -Starting Life in Another World- (light novel)
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Buck_Wade said: -Stray said: Didnt Okabe fail tons of times before reaching an end he wanted? I also remember him screaming a lot of times. The biggest difference is, Okabe was only trying to keep Mayuri alive from accidents and organizations from normal humans, Subaru has to deal with people that has powers, creatures that cant be explained and still manages to reach the end he wants in just a few tries unlike Okabe. I dunno about Okabe, but there's also the fact that Subaru is as weak as a cockroach. Hell, his LIFESPAN seems to be lower than a cockroach's at this point. Physically yes he's weak compared to the other characters, but as a whole he is by far the most dangerous character introduced, it doesnt matter how many times you kill him, he'll keep on restarting until reaching a point where he doesnt die, he can keep on redoing stuffs until he gets it right and plus he has knowledge of what will happen and who's the enemy at a certain point. |
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| Can anyone help me understand this? |
lolatusenpaiJul 27, 2016 12:54 AM
potplant said: Why isn't it interesting? It's interesting to see Subaru to believe and act in the arch typical LN MC saviour persona and gets rolled It's interesting to see him dismissing Rem when she's about the only typical LN female (in other words, they are an item of sorts) and chasing the more elusive Emilia. The only difference between Subaru and the typical MC is the sea did not part ways to make way at a snap of fingers. Subaru has only been though what 3 loops against things out of his league. Just because he failed utterly each case doesn't mean he didn't try, even if you don't agree with the way he does things. Okabe might of tried sensibly but the setting and writing was much worse than Re:Zero, arse pull scenarios to get Mayuri killed to push a concept of 'fate' that's against what the first 15 episode has been spewing. At least Re:Zero is consistent in this manner, never has Re:Zero said "Look at Subaru, this is an exemplary MC". Quite the contrary it has been hinted many times he's not cool when things are going his way and initially just got lucky. Just like I fail to see how would people find cringe inducing characters like Tatsuya interesting, or watching Mahouka for any other purpose than a stomach cleansing therapy. Subaru is quite shabby, well half the population has below average intelligence anyway so nothing new to see here, at least people recognize he's got issues, and the show is not even pretending he's anything but. As weak as Okabe might be, he's still *cough* a scientist and knew that time travelling shit might be dangerous, plus he didn't need to die to repeat, while Subaru is just a plain guy who likes video games. Subaru thought the world he got "summoned" into is a rainbow and sunshine land of fantasy where he could run away from the boring reality and he obviously wasn't prepared at all for all those despair. I bet everyone here would also end up like Subaru if we were in his stead, so nobody's in the position to say that Subaru is a weak crybaby idiot. Though I'm a guy I would still scream the shit out of me and dry out my eyes if my fingers get stabbed by a knife or if I'd see my crush get killed in front of my eyes. I can't imagine what would happen if I'd get my head chopped of after seeing the people I love die in front of me and reviving multiple times to relive the same shit. Even if I could get used to it, there's always a limit. Waking up with the feeling that the your limbs were teared apart and seeing your loved ones who were dead just a minute ago asking you worriedly "are you okay?" for multiple time is not nice at all, heck, that would drive me insane and crazy, even if I was really smart, I won't be able to think straight anymore, logic won't work with me, all I would want to do is save to them no matter how, even by ranting at people. |
draco6 said: If Puck can kill Betelguese, why he can't kill that weaker Elsa in episode 3? And what "you scum" Puck referring to? Betelguese, Subaru, or Emilia? And that ending song sounds calmed down to the previous eps. That obviously referred to Betelgeuse, wasn't it? What important is Puck also referred Emilia as her daughter... I think it's related to the beast that killed Subaru in ep 15 But oh well, I haven't read the novel and obviously there are lots of things I don't know yet. |
KyuremXJul 27, 2016 1:52 AM
| man these episodes are just repetitive, its the same shit over and over again. I fail to see the point of throwing all these circumstances where the MC just gets fucked over and over again. Its overdone, the death scenes have no impact and no meaning because they have been overexposed. Its been 17 episodes and we still have no idea what is happening , Its just a series of unfortunate events that befall the main character that don't seem to lead to anything substantial in terms of plot. |
Mentar said: Really? At least I'm positively sure that many would at least TRY to make heads or tails out of it, instead of running around like a headless chicken, screaming and lashing out at everybody else. I sure as hell would. Subaru isn't even TRYING to think before he acts. He isn't even TRYING to understand what is happening. He isn't even TRYING to pick up when his original plan (run away!!) becomes superseded by new developments. Instead, he is screaming his frustration out in the world. He's blaming the guy driving the fleeing cart for "abandoning" Rem and attacking him. No. This is so retarded that I'm fairly sure that even if I were in his shoes, I wouldn't do it. Being a helpless ragdoll does not absolve you from utterly failing to show any effort at coherence. As I said before: "Second arc First death (Finds out he''s dying) > Second death (Figures out someone is killing him with chains) > Third death (Tries to figure out who the culprit is, finds out it's Rem) > Fourth death+ (Finds out Rem dies, figures out it's curse based, proceeds to make plan with all existing information to 1) Make Rem trust him, and 2) get rid of the curse. Third arc: First death: (Finds out that everyone dies) > Second death (Gets to the mansion earlier, but gets caught, figures out the witch's cult/Beteljuice is behind the attack) > Current life (Enlists help, gets rejected, takes the shorter route to save time. Just because it isn't spelt out, doesn't mean he isn't learning. He's actively changing his plans every loop, just because a narrator doesn't speak over the opening of every episode explaining what's going on, doesn't mean that Subaru is trying to do the same thing over and over again. Yes, Subaru could be doing things MUCH BETTER, but keep in mind he's mentally exhausted atm. Even god tier characters like Okabe went down the Subaru path. Everyone is being harsh on him" Why do people constantly say Subaru isn't trying to overcome the problems presented to him? Yes he does sludge through them inefficiently, but he does figure out ways to overcome said problems, as proven above. I think people are just trying to hate for the sake of hating, there's only so many times you can say "Subaru is shouting like an idiot" to validate your point. If you look at everything he's done since the show has started, you'll realise he's actually done a lot to save everyone, which,is why he feels so entitled "If it wasn't for me it would have been much worse" (He says something like that to Emilia). I think everyone needs to get off the "Subaru is dumb as bricks" bandwagon, and jump on the "Subaru is actually decently intelligent, and can make logical decisions when he isn't mentally unstable" bandwagon. Or if you don't prefer any of those, just join the "Best girl Rem bandwagon". |
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batossai said: man these episodes are just repetitive, its the same shit over and over again. I fail to see the point of throwing all these circumstances where the MC just gets fucked over and over again. Its overdone, the death scenes have no impact and no meaning because they have been overexposed. Its been 17 episodes and we still have no idea what is happening , Its just a series of unfortunate events that befall the main character that don't seem to lead to anything substantial in terms of plot. Yes, if you just conveniently ignore everything else because you're too busy whining about MC having to struggle and overcome his flaws while dealing with machinations of others who are constantly targeting him and those he cares about for their own ends which either have to do with the Royal Election or the Witch of Envy. But whatever. |
Iron_MawJul 27, 2016 2:56 AM
KyuremX said: draco6 said: If Puck can kill Betelguese, why he can't kill that weaker Elsa in episode 3? And what "you scum" Puck referring to? Betelguese, Subaru, or Emilia? And that ending song sounds calmed down to the previous eps. That obviously referred to Betelgeuse, wasn't it? What important is Puck also referred Emilia as her daughter... I think it's related to the beast that killed Subaru in ep 15 But oh well, I haven't read the novel and obviously there are lots of things I don't know yet. This is no spoiler , you should know in the firsts episodes what is puck or pack whatever said to Subaru , Emilia and he or a she ? xD , said that they have a contract and if Emilia dies he will destroy the world... And they relationship isn't like Emilia - Subaru like just know each other recently but puck - Emilia they are I don't kmow like 100/ 200 years maybe... So think... You should notice that... |
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| Finally it slightly moved forward. This show was starting to turn in another fucking endless eight. This repetitiveness probably wouldn't be even that jarring if it wasn't for such unlikable MC. It's hard to feel sorry or invested into a story of someone that annoying. |
Ii tenki desu ne... |
KyuremX said: draco6 said: If Puck can kill Betelguese, why he can't kill that weaker Elsa in episode 3? And what "you scum" Puck referring to? Betelguese, Subaru, or Emilia? And that ending song sounds calmed down to the previous eps. That obviously referred to Betelgeuse, wasn't it? What important is Puck also referred Emilia as her daughter... I think it's related to the beast that killed Subaru in ep 15 But oh well, I haven't read the novel and obviously there are lots of things I don't know yet. Pack is MALE. Pack is the beast. Same voice, the contract to fulfill from the beginning, also the earring. Pack call her "daughter" not in a litteral sense. That's how their relashionship is. Kind of like Felt and Rom. About the family dispute... it is pretty interesting that you bring up this idea. Nice theory :) |
"Vaut mieux se suffire à soi que finir assoiffé dans le monde des apparences."  |
TadpoleSHero said: Buck_Wade said: 1. For the past episodes, he's been trying different routes to go to the mansion. 2. In ep 16, he was too angry to talk normally to the candidates to get help, and couldn't come up with anything to offer them. In ep 17, Rem had just died when he was trying to make a scenario where she wouldn't, and to top it off, her memories within others was erased, that, along with wanting to explain his curse, even knowing he'd die, led to you know what. 3. I find it impossible to explain this. I'm sorry, but this is basic human behavior. Trying to explain this would be almost the equivalent of why people fear pain. I would have to seriously study physiology to explain something this simple. Your thoughts on Rem dying confuse me. "just died when he was trying to make a scenario where she wouldn't, and to top it off, her memories within others was erased, that, along with wanting to explain his curse, even knowing he'd die, led to you know what." I don't understand why Rem dying this time broke him, and why that's an inevitability. As far as he knows, he can still reset to before she died. He was trying to figure out how to save her. He tried something different (fog place with whale, which he didn't know would happen). It failed. Now he has new information. And, I would think, he'd be determined to prevent her from dying, not shut down and freak out and run away and scream "I don't want to die!" Why WOULDN'T he want to die, in order to reset and save the girl he cares so much about? I don't see Subaru's actions as "basic human behavior" when it is self evident that different people would react differently in that situation, and the fact that, given his circumstances, and the fact that he's been through Rem dying and Emilia dying multiple times, he'd be somewhat conditioned to it. Not numb to it, not immune to the pain and fear, but conditioned enough to know what he has to do to save her. In the end, it just makes it look more and more like Subaru doesn't actually care about Rem or Emilia, and is selfish and fully self-centered like Crusch and Emilia believe to be so. I don't think Subaru actually is selfish like that. I believe he truly does care deeply for Rem and doesn't want her to die. Which is why his reaction baffles me. If Subaru is acting out "basic human behavior," then it's clear that many of us are not ordinary humans and this "basic human behavior" doesn't apply to as many people as your theory suggests. Do you think dying is easy? Its not easy for someone to keep dying in gruesome manners (retaining the memorizes and pain) and still keep their sanity. To top it off his plans keep failing and no one understands what he's going through and he can't tell anyone. *Such a lonely world* |
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Buck_Wade said: Anti-Agelast said: Never said they were. And you can be emotional and not think clearly too. Because he's in a position where he has time to take a breath, right? One of the best ways to make people stop thinking clearly is to impose deadlines on them. And what does the day to day human experience have on what Subaru has gone through? People that go through a fraction of what he has end up not thinking rationally all the time. I read a comment from someone who posted that apparently, many people (soldiers even, etc) who have experienced a near death experience are screwed up for life. Thank you. That sums it all |
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Md_Kanj said: I really like this ep. they've gone and teared Subaru's character apart and it's just going crazier and crazier. I love how he just completely lost it this episode and how he just seems not to care that much about Rem that much if he can save Emilia and how he just want it to stop. I don't think that they'll be able to finish the story within within the time span they got right now so I really hope there'll be a second season. I'm gonna burn of waiting for the next ep agghhh!! LOL, same here hope so too :-)) |
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Red_Ranger_Wien said: Janeel said: many are saying that subaru should just get over with his emotions (miraculously) after going through 17 episodes of pain,torture,etc or should get used to this by now are ignoring the age and social life he was leading before entering other dimension. Except we haven't been told anything about his social life or backstory other than "lol I'm a NEET" I know this was 6 hours ago buuut I can't resist.... Think man! He lives in modern Japan. That there you should know that violence AND death are not common... Secondly the fact that he's a neet shows that he doesn't really have much social life and relies on his parents.. The worse he probably could have had in that past was a family member dying or being bullied...That's nothing in comparison to being killed several times, watching those you care about dying and no matter how hard you try there are other ways they die AND he get's no recognition for his actions OR help for that fact (He get's allies but he has to work for those and if he dies they all reset)...Instead he's treated poorly because they're oblivious to what he's been trying to do... |
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Md_Kanj said: I really like this ep. they've gone and teared Subaru's character apart and it's just going crazier and crazier. I love how he just completely lost it this episode and how he just seems not to care that much about Rem that much if he can save Emilia and how he just want it to stop. I don't think that they'll be able to finish the story within within the time span they got right now so I really hope there'll be a second season. I'm gonna burn of waiting for the next ep agghhh!! Putting the whole story in 25 episodes is impossible (15% percent at most). Even the most and worst butchering wouldn't make sense, and so does it not for an original ending. The next arc next season is very big and could be a season in itself if they do it properly without cutting everything. |
| "Vaut mieux se suffire à soi que finir assoiffé dans le monde des apparences." |
ask4ebuka said: Do you think dying is easy? Its not easy for someone to keep dying in gruesome manners (retaining the memorizes and pain) and still keep their sanity. To top it off his plans keep failing and no one understands what he's going through and he can't tell anyone. *Such a lonely world* long time ago, a few people here in mal suggesting to view the story in subaru perspective, not viewer perspective. so i would say, yes, dying is easy, for him because he can go back to save point and thats unlimited (except savepoint will move suddenly or anything but thats not showed yet). he already seeing everyone died, so he should prepared for it at least and try again, but no, he just screaming and crying which is annoying to watch. |
| 期待しているよ、私のサリアだって、嘘ばっかり! でもねアンジュ、あんたがいなくなれば、私の方が強いってわかれば, それができるなら、何もいらない! |
Killer96bee said: the 25 episodes will cover from vol.1 to 8 And the volume 9 it's recent , the maximum they can do is put like 1 episode for two weeks because waiting a year to give some advance to the novel it doesn't seems right xD especially, 1 episode for two weeks , I don't know if they can do it but it would be awesome Yes there's that too. It seems it follows the light novel, not the web novel and manga and anime promote it, that's why they're both at arc 3 and we'll probably have to wait for arc 4... |
| "Vaut mieux se suffire à soi que finir assoiffé dans le monde des apparences." |
Tony_SansNom said: Putting the whole story in 25 episodes is impossible (15% percent at most). Even the most and worst butchering wouldn't make sense, and so does it not for an original ending. The next arc next season is very big and could be a season in itself if they do it properly without cutting everything. Probably this one too, will end in somewhat of a cliffhanger and we'll have to wait a couple of years until the novel finishes for a second season. |
| Man, Otto is savage (」゜ロ゜)」. |
Jakez123 said: Just because it isn't spelt out, doesn't mean he isn't learning. In the current arc, he isn't, no. Which is why I said that Subaru is regressing. In arcs 1 and 2 I will grant him that while he was still shouting and throwing tantrums, he at least worked towards the positive resolution. In this arc, he has accomplished almost nothing but p*ss off everyone around him. He's actively changing his plans every loop, just because a narrator doesn't speak over the opening of every episode explaining what's going on, doesn't mean that Subaru is trying to do the same thing over and over again. Yes, Subaru could be doing things MUCH BETTER, but keep in mind he's mentally exhausted atm. Even god tier characters like Okabe went down the Subaru path. Everyone is being harsh on him" Are you serious? The opposite is true, everyone is pampering Subaru like a baby. Just a quick list of his most egregious failures in this arc: - Constantly badgering Royalty (Emilia) to do as he demands without explaining himself - Breaking his promise to stay away during the selection out of a feeling of entitlement - Absolutely unacceptable conduct during the selection, massive unauthorized meddling in Emilia's affairs in harmful ways - Retarded "negotiations", ended by drastically insulting all other parties - Absurd projection of his own feelings of guilt on others (e.g. Otto) And and and. Other than Otto, no repercussions whatsoever. The normal reaction of other parties would be to beat him up and kick him out to the curb. Instead, everyone is bending over backwards to care for him (Emilia, Ram), give him advice (the other queen candidates) or even sacrifice their lives for him (Rem). Everybody is being harsh on him, good grief. I think people are just trying to hate for the sake of hating, there's only so many times you can say "Subaru is shouting like an idiot" to validate your point. If you look at everything he's done since the show has started, you'll realise he's actually done a lot to save everyone [...] Well, he clearly _is_ acting like an utter idiot in this arc. Simple fact. I can hardly come up with ONE thing he did which any normal person couldn't have handled much better. And the "oooh, he had it soooo hard" defense has run out in my book. ...which,is why he feels so entitled "If it wasn't for me it would have been much worse" (He says something like that to Emilia). Entitled to what? Break his promises, causing trouble and forcing his opinions on Emilia, screwing up the selection without any clue what he is doing? No, he's not entitled to that. Especially since most other characters do not know what he did, and he is unable to communicate this. I think everyone needs to get off the "Subaru is dumb as bricks" bandwagon, and jump on the "Subaru is actually decently intelligent, and can make logical decisions when he isn't mentally unstable" bandwagon. Can, yes. Every once in a blue moon. In this arc, though, he utterly failed so far. His latent problems are his absurd feeling of entitlement, his utter lack of self-control and his tendency to scream and rage brainlessly when meeting adversity. Or if you don't prefer any of those, just join the "Best girl Rem bandwagon". Rem is great, and her own devotion to Subaru makes the most sense, because she knows what he has actually done for her. To me, the character who has shown the biggest heart and kindness so far has been Emilia. Because no matter how much Subaru overstepped all bounds and messed with her (again, keep in mind that she doesn't know what he did), she was still being exceptionally kind and caring towards him. Someone invent a gag which is forcing Subaru to be quiet and think for one minute before he can open his mouth. That would be a big help. |
Mentar said: Jakez123 said: Just because it isn't spelt out, doesn't mean he isn't learning. In the current arc, he isn't, no. Which is why I said that Subaru is regressing. In arcs 1 and 2 I will grant him that while he was still shouting and throwing tantrums, he at least worked towards the positive resolution. In this arc, he has accomplished almost nothing but p*ss off everyone around him. He's actively changing his plans every loop, just because a narrator doesn't speak over the opening of every episode explaining what's going on, doesn't mean that Subaru is trying to do the same thing over and over again. Yes, Subaru could be doing things MUCH BETTER, but keep in mind he's mentally exhausted atm. Even god tier characters like Okabe went down the Subaru path. Everyone is being harsh on him" Are you serious? The opposite is true, everyone is pampering Subaru like a baby. Just a quick list of his most egregious failures in this arc: - Constantly badgering Royalty (Emilia) to do as he demands without explaining himself - Breaking his promise to stay away during the selection out of a feeling of entitlement - Absolutely unacceptable conduct during the selection, massive unauthorized meddling in Emilia's affairs in harmful ways - Retarded "negotiations", ended by drastically insulting all other parties - Absurd projection of his own feelings of guilt on others (e.g. Otto) And and and. Other than Otto, no repercussions whatsoever. The normal reaction of other parties would be to beat him up and kick him out to the curb. Instead, everyone is bending over backwards to care for him (Emilia, Ram), give him advice (the other queen candidates) or even sacrifice their lives for him (Rem). Everybody is being harsh on him, good grief. I think people are just trying to hate for the sake of hating, there's only so many times you can say "Subaru is shouting like an idiot" to validate your point. If you look at everything he's done since the show has started, you'll realise he's actually done a lot to save everyone [...] Well, he clearly _is_ acting like an utter idiot in this arc. Simple fact. I can hardly come up with ONE thing he did which any normal person couldn't have handled much better. And the "oooh, he had it soooo hard" defense has run out in my book. ...which,is why he feels so entitled "If it wasn't for me it would have been much worse" (He says something like that to Emilia). Entitled to what? Break his promises, causing trouble and forcing his opinions on Emilia, screwing up the selection without any clue what he is doing? No, he's not entitled to that. Especially since most other characters do not know what he did, and he is unable to communicate this. I think everyone needs to get off the "Subaru is dumb as bricks" bandwagon, and jump on the "Subaru is actually decently intelligent, and can make logical decisions when he isn't mentally unstable" bandwagon. Can, yes. Every once in a blue moon. In this arc, though, he utterly failed so far. His latent problems are his absurd feeling of entitlement, his utter lack of self-control and his tendency to scream and rage brainlessly when meeting adversity. Or if you don't prefer any of those, just join the "Best girl Rem bandwagon". Rem is great, and her own devotion to Subaru makes the most sense, because she knows what he has actually done for her. To me, the character who has shown the biggest heart and kindness so far has been Emilia. Because no matter how much Subaru overstepped all bounds and messed with her (again, keep in mind that she doesn't know what he did), she was still being exceptionally kind and caring towards him. Someone invent a gag which is forcing Subaru to be quiet and think for one minute before he can open his mouth. That would be a big help. Yea, Subaru has definitely regressed this arc, which I have stated myself, I believe the author did it intentionally. Subaru is your typical human protagonist, by arc 3, I assume everything that has occurred has caught up to him, which then leads onto his character regression. I won't blame Subaru for that, again I'll go back to Steins;Gate, Okabe broke down similarly, and on top of that he had people to confide in, Subaru doesn't have that. I've already said this before, but how will he explain anything to Emilia? I've already made scenarios in my head and it doesn't end well for Subaru, even if he makes up convenient lies like saying stuff like "I can see the future" or "I overheard the Witch's Cult, they're going to attack in a few days, we need to go". Do you really think Emilia is going to drop everything and follow Subaru, drop all her work to become queen and listen to a guy who she had a very bad argument with just a few days prior? No. Of course she isn't it's going to come down to Emilia thinking Subaru is lying, and using it to get closer to her, for "her sake", and then we're back at step 1. She'll ask why Subaru is doing it all for her, and what then? He can't say anything, because if he mentions their first meeting back in Arc 1 loop 1, the hands will kill Emilia. Again, I'm not sure how these conversations pan out in your head when you think of these hypothetical scenarios, but for me, it doesn't work. As for his "Negotiation", keep in mind he was blinded with anger (Something that Crusch openly states, I mean the author is pretty much slapping the viewer in the face and saying "Subaru isn't thinking clearly"). Not only that, you're forgetting that all of these other candidates, are VERY professional and are good at politics, Subaru isn't, he's your average guy who's a NEET. There's no way this average person can, on his first attempt out-negotiate 3 ladies who were BORN and trained their whole life at politics. Expecting him to not fail is ludicrous. You also forget, that Subaru was once like Priscilla/Crusch/Anastasia. In the first episode, Subaru doesn't want to help the lost child, but then Emilia helps the child anyway. In the third loop of the first arc, in the loot house, Subaru notices that even without him present, Emilia still helped the child, so no matter if he is or isn't present, Emilia will help those in need. He obviously assumes this will be the case for Priscilla/Crusch/Anastasia, because after all, Emilia is just like them, but she would help people, it's only natural to assume that these people might help out because "If you can save people isn't that the right thing to do?", which is what Subaru says to Crusch. He's hit with reality - Not everyone is as nice as Emilia. So don't berate him for his "stupid decisions". He was trying, believing that everyone else would be helpful like Emilia, and then he realised that the other 3 candidates were only looking at what was best for them (But there's nothing wrong with that anyway). |
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Mentar said: The point that people continuously ignore is that Subaru is not trying. Trying implies a conscious decision to accomplish something. He is living out his pain and lashing out at everyone around him, _without a trace of reason_. That's my problem with him. Screaming and running and attacking others (see: Otto) does not constitute "trying" in my book. I would hardly saw Subaru isn't trying. He's trying badly, for obvious reasons, but he's still trying. Okabe tried. Many times, he saw Mayuri die again and again. He tried to learn from it, and try again. He did not attack Kurisu, Mayuri and the others like Subaru continuously does. He did not have screaming tantrums either. Yes, he did not succeed before Kurisu helped him sort things out, but he didn't have Subaru's unsightly display. As I already mentioned, Okabe had support that Subaru simply doesn't have How this is supposed to be "interesting" is beyond me. To me, it's simply annoying as hell. To paraphrase William Faulkner , the human heart at conflict with itself is what is worth writing about. That's what is interesting about Subaru's journey. |
Jakez123 said: I've already said this before, but how will he explain anything to Emilia? I've already made scenarios in my head and it doesn't end well for Subaru, even if he makes up convenient lies like saying stuff like "I can see the future" or "I overheard the Witch's Cult, they're going to attack in a few days, we need to go". Do you really think Emilia is going to drop everything and follow Subaru, drop all her work to become queen and listen to a guy who she had a very bad argument with just a few days prior? But she _is_ listening to him. She always has, and she always encouraged him to explain himself. Instead he is shouting at her like a madman, accusing her of lying over Rem and then even grabbing her and threatening her. You think this is more likely to succeed? Really? No. Of course she isn't it's going to come down to Emilia thinking Subaru is lying, and using it to get closer to her, for "her sake", and then we're back at step 1. Which, by the way, is actually the truth. Subaru is doing nothing for Emilia, he is primarily doing it for himself. If he actually cared for Emilia, he wouldn't have crashed the selection and then messed around without knowing ANYTHING about what Emilia wanted to accomplish. Subaru is fancying himself as the big honcho. Remember his creepy laughs whenever he convinces himself that only he can help Emilia? He isn't truly interested in helping her, he is only living out his own vanity. Emilia is his trophy, his accessory to his own hero-dom. As for his "Negotiation", keep in mind he was blinded with anger (Something that Crusch openly states, I mean the author is pretty much slapping the viewer in the face and saying "Subaru isn't thinking clearly"). Not only that, you're forgetting that all of these other candidates, are VERY professional and are good at politics, Subaru isn't, he's your average guy who's a NEET. Why do you think I'm "forgetting" it? This is no matter of being "good at politics", it's a matter of simple manners and self-control. In his blind rage, he continues to pick the worst of all options, but instead of realizing it (self-reflection is another quality he is missing), he doesn't even get it after the queen candidates explain to him what he is doing wrong. There's no way this average person can, on his first attempt out-negotiate 3 ladies who were BORN and trained their whole life at politics. Expecting him to not fail is ludicrous. No way. The majority of people in this situation wouldn't exacerbate things by sneering at them after the failure. And they would probably have listened and reflected on the advice. It doesn't require skills or training, just basic manners. |
Mentar said: Jakez123 said: I've already said this before, but how will he explain anything to Emilia? I've already made scenarios in my head and it doesn't end well for Subaru, even if he makes up convenient lies like saying stuff like "I can see the future" or "I overheard the Witch's Cult, they're going to attack in a few days, we need to go". Do you really think Emilia is going to drop everything and follow Subaru, drop all her work to become queen and listen to a guy who she had a very bad argument with just a few days prior? But she _is_ listening to him. She always has, and she always encouraged him to explain himself. Instead he is shouting at her like a madman, accusing her of lying over Rem and then even grabbing her and threatening her. You think this is more likely to succeed? Really? No. Of course she isn't it's going to come down to Emilia thinking Subaru is lying, and using it to get closer to her, for "her sake", and then we're back at step 1. Which, by the way, is actually the truth. Subaru is doing nothing for Emilia, he is primarily doing it for himself. If he actually cared for Emilia, he wouldn't have crashed the selection and then messed around without knowing ANYTHING about what Emilia wanted to accomplish. Subaru is fancying himself as the big honcho. Remember his creepy laughs whenever he convinces himself that only he can help Emilia? He isn't truly interested in helping her, he is only living out his own vanity. Emilia is his trophy, his accessory to his own hero-dom. As for his "Negotiation", keep in mind he was blinded with anger (Something that Crusch openly states, I mean the author is pretty much slapping the viewer in the face and saying "Subaru isn't thinking clearly"). Not only that, you're forgetting that all of these other candidates, are VERY professional and are good at politics, Subaru isn't, he's your average guy who's a NEET. Why do you think I'm "forgetting" it? This is no matter of being "good at politics", it's a matter of simple manners and self-control. In his blind rage, he continues to pick the worst of all options, but instead of realizing it (self-reflection is another quality he is missing), he doesn't even get it after the queen candidates explain to him what he is doing wrong. There's no way this average person can, on his first attempt out-negotiate 3 ladies who were BORN and trained their whole life at politics. Expecting him to not fail is ludicrous. No way. The majority of people in this situation wouldn't exacerbate things by sneering at them after the failure. And they would probably have listened and reflected on the advice. It doesn't require skills or training, just basic manners. You haven't answered my question, you;re still reiterating that Subaru is shouting like a mad man and accusing Emilia of lying over Rem, he simply said, and I quote "Even you?", if anything, he sounds like he's confused. You haven't even given me a basic outline of how he would convince Emilia to assist him, and instead keep droning on about Subaru shouting. You say you understand that Subaru is blinded with rage, yet expect him to have basic logic? That's contradictory, if you realise he's blinded with rage, then you'll realise he will be making less than optimum decisions. Which, is exactly what he's doing and is expected. You then go on to say that all he needs is "basic manners", how is that going to get him what he wants? EVERY CANDIDATE, wants information, something that Subaru doesn't have, even if Subaru was sane or blinded with rage, the outcome would have been the same - he wouldn't know anything more if he was sane than if he was blinded with rage. And with his interaction with Crusch, he was composed during the discussion and only fully snapped when Crusch said "I won't help Emilia because even if I help, or I don't help, Emilia is out of the contest, so no point in helping her". Like I said, it's easy to say "Subaru needs manners" or "Subaru needs to explain himself properly", but never once have you actually stated HOW they will help him overcome the situations. I've already tried to explain, in this post, why having these "Basic manners" (you Couldn't even be more vague with this statement) would be irrelevant, the 3 candidates want information, Subaru doesn't have information, overall his mental state Sane/Angry/Sad/Depressed isn't going to change the amount for information he has to offer, and thus, the negotiation would fail every time until he gets more info. |
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Jakez123 said: You haven't answered my question, you;re still reiterating that Subaru is shouting like a mad man and accusing Emilia of lying over Rem, he simply said, and I quote "Even you?", if anything, he sounds like he's confused. Let me refresh your memory, then. "You won't work. You'll fail. You can't do it. It's no use. You're all talk. You can't save anyone, or be saved! You'll keep acting rashly and unreasonably, UNTIL YOU SEE AS MANY CORPSES AS THE NUMBER OF YOUR RECKLESS DECISIONS! THAT IS YOUR FUTURE!!" Hilariously, he is yelling this at Emilia, instead at himself. I haven't seen Emilia act rashly or unreasonably yet. Did you? And do you condone this absurd rant? You haven't even given me a basic outline of how he would convince Emilia to assist him, and instead keep droning on about Subaru shouting. You say you understand that Subaru is blinded with rage, yet expect him to have basic logic? That is what differentiates adolescents from brats. The ability to control rage, and to keep at least a minimum grasp of what you're trying to accomplish. And this escapade is only proving once more that Subaru is merely a brat. What would have yielded better results? First, dropping the intimidation act. Second, say that you have information about an impending attack of witch cultists, but you cannot explain right now where you've got it from. And urge her to please believe you. Personally, I'd give this approach a >50% chance of success, taking Emilia's conciliatory nature into account. It sure beats screaming at her, grabbing her arm and threatening her. In my book at least. That's contradictory, if you realise he's blinded with rage, then you'll realise he will be making less than optimum decisions. Which, is exactly what he's doing and is expected. He's making no decision here. He's merely ranting and venting. Sorry, man, you'll simply have to accept that arc 3 Subaru is the bottom of the barrel. No matter how much lipstick you try to put on it. You then go on to say that all he needs is "basic manners", how is that going to get him what he wants? EVERY CANDIDATE, wants information, something that Subaru doesn't have, even if Subaru was sane or blinded with rage, the outcome would have been the same - he wouldn't know anything more if he was sane than if he was blinded with rage. No. Insulting and threatening all of them at leaving is - once again - the most stupid approach to ending talks, because it reduces the likelihood of getting cooperation in the future, and serves no purpose but venting self-gratification. He could and should have asked the opposite: What would need to happen to make you help? Is there a quid pro quo possible? Even if he might not have succeeded, he wouldn't have further damaged his future prospects. Just to avoid misunderstandings: I'm not criticizing him for failing to garner help. I am criticizing him for botching things in the worst possible way, because he can't keep his feelings and mouth under control. Most normal people would have done better. |
Mentar said: Jakez123 said: You haven't answered my question, you;re still reiterating that Subaru is shouting like a mad man and accusing Emilia of lying over Rem, he simply said, and I quote "Even you?", if anything, he sounds like he's confused. Let me refresh your memory, then. "You won't work. You'll fail. You can't do it. It's no use. You're all talk. You can't save anyone, or be saved! You'll keep acting rashly and unreasonably, UNTIL YOU SEE AS MANY CORPSES AS THE NUMBER OF YOUR RECKLESS DECISIONS! THAT IS YOUR FUTURE!!" Hilariously, he is yelling this at Emilia, instead at himself. I haven't seen Emilia act rashly or unreasonably yet. Did you? And do you condone this absurd rant? You haven't even given me a basic outline of how he would convince Emilia to assist him, and instead keep droning on about Subaru shouting. You say you understand that Subaru is blinded with rage, yet expect him to have basic logic? That is what differentiates adolescents from brats. The ability to control rage, and to keep at least a minimum grasp of what you're trying to accomplish. And this escapade is only proving once more that Subaru is merely a brat. What would have yielded better results? First, dropping the intimidation act. Second, say that you have information about an impending attack of witch cultists, but you cannot explain right now where you've got it from. And urge her to please believe you. Personally, I'd give this approach a >50% chance of success, taking Emilia's conciliatory nature into account. It sure beats screaming at her, grabbing her arm and threatening her. In my book at least. That's contradictory, if you realise he's blinded with rage, then you'll realise he will be making less than optimum decisions. Which, is exactly what he's doing and is expected. He's making no decision here. He's merely ranting and venting. Sorry, man, you'll simply have to accept that arc 3 Subaru is the bottom of the barrel. No matter how much lipstick you try to put on it. You then go on to say that all he needs is "basic manners", how is that going to get him what he wants? EVERY CANDIDATE, wants information, something that Subaru doesn't have, even if Subaru was sane or blinded with rage, the outcome would have been the same - he wouldn't know anything more if he was sane than if he was blinded with rage. No. Insulting and threatening all of them at leaving is - once again - the most stupid approach to ending talks, because it reduces the likelihood of getting cooperation in the future, and serves no purpose but venting self-gratification. He could and should have asked the opposite: What would need to happen to make you help? Is there a quid pro quo possible? Even if he might not have succeeded, he wouldn't have further damaged his future prospects. Just to avoid misunderstandings: I'm not criticizing him for failing to garner help. I am criticizing him for botching things in the worst possible way, because he can't keep his feelings and mouth under control. Most normal people would have done better. What are you on about mate? W're talking about how Subaru "Accuses" Emilia of lying about Rem, yet the quote you posted was WAY before Rem was even mentioned, Subaru said all of that after Emilia said "I have a lot of things to do", and then, he responded with "You won't work" (I.e in a few days you will die so you cannot work). Ask her to believe you? Why would she? 2 days ago they had a massive argument, out of nowhere he bursts in all bloodied, disobeying her orders for a second time, and then you expect for him to waltz in randomly, calmly explain that he has new "information", and then "cannot explain it" and to "Believe him", that's pretty much parallel on what happened BEFORE their first argument. Emilia is a blockhead, unless there are other variables present, she's most likely going to assume Subaru is lying to get back close to her and ask him "why he is doing it for her sake?", and then again, he can't explain anything, she'll simply respond like normal "I don't understand, you say I should believe you, you say there's going to be an attack, but you never explain anything, I can't understand you if you don't tell me". And we're back to step one, your solution is flawed, it would never work. True, it does beat screaming, but it wouldn't work anyway. He's making no decision? Maybe not when it comes to being angry, but he makes his decision to get help, he makes the decision to take the short route, he makes the decision to hire as many carts to save all the villagers from Otto, utilising the negotiation skills he learned from the Queen candidates, like I said before, just because the show doesn't flat out EXPLAIN these things, doesn't mean Subaru isn't learning. He bought them carriages with the intention of saving the villagers, he was thinking ahead, trying his best to salvage what he could on that loop. And you're going to stand there and tell me he's just rambling like a madman? As for the meetings with the 3 candidates. Yes, calling them names when he's leaving is bad, but it's irrelevant, he only did that because they didn't want to help him, why didn't they want to help him? Because he had no information. Being calm or being nice won't help, EVERYONE, says, "what's in it for me", Crusch asks, Anastasia asks, true, maybe being composed might help, but overall, you;re tunnel visioning on the end result - Subaru shouting, that's totally irrelevant, even if he was calm and composed it wouldn't matter, they want information, Subaru doesn't have information. It's simple as black and white. He would fail and fail until he has "meat", which in this case, is information. He was only very angry at the end of all the meetings, when they all declined him. True he may have botched them right at the end, but it doesn;t matter, because at that point, neither Queen candidate was going to help him anyway. |
Jakez123Jul 27, 2016 7:19 AM
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Mentar said: I disagree. While yes, it does look like he's yelling at Emilia here, he's actually directing that particular speech towards himself. That's how I interpreted it when I watched it first time 'round.Jakez123 said: You haven't answered my question, you;re still reiterating that Subaru is shouting like a mad man and accusing Emilia of lying over Rem, he simply said, and I quote "Even you?", if anything, he sounds like he's confused. Let me refresh your memory, then. "You won't work. You'll fail. You can't do it. It's no use. You're all talk. You can't save anyone, or be saved! You'll keep acting rashly and unreasonably, UNTIL YOU SEE AS MANY CORPSES AS THE NUMBER OF YOUR RECKLESS DECISIONS! THAT IS YOUR FUTURE!!" Hilariously, he is yelling this at Emilia, instead at himself. I haven't seen Emilia act rashly or unreasonably yet. Did you? And do you condone this absurd rant? |
SandyBoiJul 27, 2016 7:30 AM
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Mentar said: If you say "oh he's been through so much, cut him some slack", fine with me. I have, for a long time. If you say "oh he's been through so much, noone could do better than him", I say bollocks. And if you want to absolve him for his crap, be my guest. I won't, I cannot. This. The idea that many people are perpetuating, that no one could do better than Subaru in the same circumstances, that everyone would act the same, that he represents how all of us would react, is utter and complete nonsense. |
Jakez123 said: What are you on about mate? W're talking about how Subaru "Accuses" Emilia of lying about Rem, yet the quote you posted was WAY before Rem was even mentioned, Subaru said all of that after Emilia said "I have a lot of things to do", and then, he responded with "You won't work" (I.e in a few days you will die so you cannot work). Why does it matter _when_ he said it (it was 20 seconds before Rem was brought up)? That's completely irrelevant. What's wrong with _you_, mate? Ask her to believe you? Why would she? 2 days ago they had a massive argument, out of nowhere he bursts in all bloodied, disobeying her orders for a second time, and then you expect for him to waltz in randomly, calmly explain that he has new "information", and then "cannot explain it" and to "Believe him", that's pretty much parallel on what happened BEFORE their first argument. Emilia is a blockhead, unless there are other variables present, she's most likely going to assume Subaru is lying to get back close to her and ask him "why he is doing it for her sake?" And yet she was listening even to the yelling Subaru. You undercut your own argument. She did _not_ cut him off, and Emilia is most definitely no blockhead at all. She's doing an amazing thing: She is _listening_. I have no idea where you have your strange arguments in your head from, but they do not match my impression of Emilia in the least. As for the meetings with the 3 candidates. Yes, calling them names when he's leaving is bad, but it's irrelevant, he only did that because they didn't want to help him, why didn't they want to help him? [...] You have a _very_ peculiar weird tendency to glancingly admit "yea, that's been bad", but then simply dismissively assert that "it doesn't matter because it would fail anyway", without a shred of evidence for it. No, we don't know if it would fail at all. More and more you give me the impression of a mother hen desperately defending her child no matter what he does. I'm not trying to change your mind, so be at ease. I only sure hope that if you ever have kids, you'll not go the same path with them. |
TadpoleSHero said: This. The idea that many people are perpetuating, that no one could do better than Subaru in the same circumstances, that everyone would act the same, that he represents how all of us would react, is utter and complete nonsense. In a period of less than 3 months, Subaru has been isolated from his entire world, been killed brutally multiple times, he's been tortured, he's had to watch people he cares about die multiple times. He can't even ease his burdens by talking to anyone about it honestly. Perhaps there are superhumans who could move through this unaffected, but Subaru clearly isn't one of those people. |
Anti-AgelastJul 27, 2016 7:45 AM
SandyBoi said: I disagree. While yes, it does look like he's yelling at Emilia here, he's actually directing that particular speech towards himself. That's how I interpreted it when I watched it first time 'round. Hm. That's quite a _big_ leap, you know. "Omae" is not the form to address yourself in Japanese. But after rewatching the scene multiple times, I'm not entirely sure anymore. Maybe you might be right after all. I'll try to keep an open mind and see if this is a rare case of self-reflection. If it is, it should be mirrored in the near future. |
Mentar said: SandyBoi said: I disagree. While yes, it does look like he's yelling at Emilia here, he's actually directing that particular speech towards himself. That's how I interpreted it when I watched it first time 'round. Hm. That's quite a _big_ leap, you know. "Omae" is not the form to address yourself in Japanese. But after rewatching the scene multiple times, I'm not entirely sure anymore. Maybe you might be right after all. I'll try to keep an open mind and see if this is a rare case of self-reflection. If it is, it should be mirrored in the near future. Heh. True, I could be wrong as well. What I believe he's doing there is basically paraphrasing what everyone else has been saying about him over the past few episodes. Like in Episode 16, where Subaru gets up, Mimi threatens him with her cane or w/e, then Anastasia stops her and says that "He can't do anything anyway" (Not those exact words, but I think you get what I mean.) Having seen some reactions on YT, seems like a few of them believed that he was talking about Emilia rather than himself. |
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| Its always easy to judge something at hindsight.. oh he should of done X instread of Y and it might not have failed. I see this not only in anime discussions but also in the game streams and basically other entertainment mediums. People keep judging stuff in hindsight and then call the other guy retarded for their decisions because the results weren't favorable. Granted I am also guilty of this at times but its always important take a step back and asks why the person made such actions given the context of the situation and not just label the person as stupid for not making the decisions that would of yielded best result. I 100% guarantee you all if Sabarus constant yelling and rage got him the support he needed to fix the issue on the spot, everyone would be like OH MAN SUBARU IS GREAT, HE ISN'T SO STOOPID. |
Mentar said: Jakez123 said: What are you on about mate? W're talking about how Subaru "Accuses" Emilia of lying about Rem, yet the quote you posted was WAY before Rem was even mentioned, Subaru said all of that after Emilia said "I have a lot of things to do", and then, he responded with "You won't work" (I.e in a few days you will die so you cannot work). Why does it matter _when_ he said it (it was 20 seconds before Rem was brought up)? That's completely irrelevant. What's wrong with _you_, mate? Ask her to believe you? Why would she? 2 days ago they had a massive argument, out of nowhere he bursts in all bloodied, disobeying her orders for a second time, and then you expect for him to waltz in randomly, calmly explain that he has new "information", and then "cannot explain it" and to "Believe him", that's pretty much parallel on what happened BEFORE their first argument. Emilia is a blockhead, unless there are other variables present, she's most likely going to assume Subaru is lying to get back close to her and ask him "why he is doing it for her sake?" And yet she was listening even to the yelling Subaru. You undercut your own argument. She did _not_ cut him off, and Emilia is most definitely no blockhead at all. She's doing an amazing thing: She is _listening_. I have no idea where you have your strange arguments in your head from, but they do not match my impression of Emilia in the least. As for the meetings with the 3 candidates. Yes, calling them names when he's leaving is bad, but it's irrelevant, he only did that because they didn't want to help him, why didn't they want to help him? [...] You have a _very_ peculiar weird tendency to glancingly admit "yea, that's been bad", but then simply dismissively assert that "it doesn't matter because it would fail anyway", without a shred of evidence for it. No, we don't know if it would fail at all. More and more you give me the impression of a mother hen desperately defending her child no matter what he does. I'm not trying to change your mind, so be at ease. I only sure hope that if you ever have kids, you'll not go the same path with them. What? your point was that he was accusing Emilia of lying about Rem, the evidence you proposed to back the claim up, was words he said before Rem was even mentioned, which pretty much invalidates your whole point, is what I'm saying, never once did he accuses Emilia of lying about Rem, and the quote you used to back your point is taken out of context and has nothing to do with Rem, and thus, your point is invalid. Just because she is listening, doesn't mean she believes him. If she believed him, they wouldn't have argued a few days ago, she didn't believe that he was doing what he was doing for her sake, when in reality, he was, this is why Subaru always says things like "I want to be there for Emilia, for when anything important happens" (He says this to Rem before leaving to the Royal castle). Listening, and believing are 2 different things, just because she will listen, doesn't mean she will act on it, thinking otherwise is funny. Of course it would fail, the show tells you this specifically, Crusch, Anastasia specifically make it clear that they want something to gain from these negotiations, in your logic, Subaru being "calm" would have helped him? Are you being serious? Being calm, is not an "offering" in negotiation. I wouldn't have helped. Tunnel visioning onto Subaru's manners is scapegoating, the reality of situation was that he was set up to fail, he entered a mission he couldn't win, he needed information, or something of similar worth to obtain allies, which he didn't have. If you look at anastasia, she gave him a dragon carriage, just based on the fact that He accidentally told them about Russel/Crusch being at their manor. But according to you, for Subaru to enlist their help, he needs to be "calm", despite 2 of the 3 queen candidates specifically asking what they get from helping him. Priscilla even says the same thing "You're a pig, you always want, want want and you never give", what is she trying to say? she's simply reiterating that "If you want us to help, you need to give things back", but we can all play ignorant and pretend that if Subaru was "calm", he can get everyone on his side. This isn't a typical shounen anime, where the main character gives his desperate speech about saving people, and then everyone pledges their swords to help him, if you want a show like that, go watch Bleach or something. This show's realistic, that's why it's focused on negotiation - Give and take. Subaru only Takes, but never gives. Which is why the episode was called "A Pig's Desire". Not sure how many times I've said it, but if even after all the things I;ve said, using examples from the show to back up my point, and you still want to say "he should've been calm" as you defence, I don't think we'll see eye to eye. There are so many hints, some said directly (Crusch/Anastasia) and some said Indirectly (Priscilla) when it comes to what Subaru has to do, as well as the episode name lampshading that fact. But we can hide behind his "not having basic manners" as the reason, amirite? |
Jakez123Jul 27, 2016 8:25 AM
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