Spotlight Anime: Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade MAL Anime Information Page: Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade MAL Score – 7.83 (by 14616 users) Ranked - #694 Popularity - #726 Original Spotlight Thread: Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade For the next week I would like to have a discussion about the anime that focuses on the key elements that we here on MAL use to critically rate an anime: Animation, Sound, Characters, Story, and Enjoyment. I would like everyone to approach this thread as if you were going to write a review and structure your initial post like this: Animation - insert rating Sound - insert rating Characters - insert rating Story - insert rating Enjoyment - insert rating Animation - discuss any pros and cons of the animation styling used in the series, try to include some specifics. Sound - describe any of the things you liked or didn't care for in regards to the music and sound effects used in the series etc... If you are having trouble writing up a review or coming up with specific pros and cons, please don't worry. Just do the best you can with it and if you can only write two or three sentences about any of the 5 elements then that's OK. Not everyone here is currently at a level which will allow them to articulate their thoughts and opinions. After your initial post is made you can feel free to civilly discuss issues of contention. I am sure there will be many opinions expressed here that some of us will disagree upon and criticise and it is for that reason that this entire club exists. So I hope everyone has fun and I am really looking forward to watching this discussion unfold. RESULTS OF THE CHALLENGE YOU DECIDE POLL: Jin-Roh: The Wolf Brigade was REMOVED from the club Anime relation list - 69% (02/04/2017) - Yes: 18 - No: 8 - I haven't watched this anime: 21 ~ Abstained: 3 ~ Ineligible: 1 |
Dr_TokamiSep 27, 2017 8:05 AM
Current FAL Ranking + Previous best::  [ |
| I'm afraid this will be a No for me. Even though the Art and the tone complimented each other with the theme that it was trying to incorporate with, I can't forgive it for the shallow characterization, the forced "Red Riding Hood" symbolism that doesn't work at all, and the absolutely atrocious slow pacing. |
GonzoLewdApr 12, 2013 3:14 PM
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DrGonzo7 said: the forced "Red Riding Hood" symbolism that doesn't work at all, and the absolutely atrocious slow pacing. To the pacing: no. Just NO. The pacing is the best thing about every single Oshii film. End of discussion. As for the red riding hood symbolism, I thought it worked quite nicely. How exactly does it not work? |
DrGonzo7 said: I can't forgive it for the shallow characterization, the forced "Red Riding Hood" symbolism that doesn't work at all, and the absolutely atrocious slow pacing. Could you elaborate on these points? What about the characterization is shallow? How is the Red Riding Hood motif forced and why didn't it work? How was the slow pace a detriment to the film? Running down a list of vague 'X is bad, y is bad' without elaborating on or substantiating anything you've said basically amounts to nothing. |
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| Since I need to elaborate some of the points I made, because of the fact of my busy schedule and other things, I'll try to extend them to your apparent pleasure. With regards to the pacing, let me make one thing clear: I do NOT mind slow pacing. Some of my favorite movies have just as much slow pacing as Jin Roh. While I do appreciate Oshii's pacing in most of his works, this one is where it's not as meaningful as the slow moments in Oshii's other films such as GitS. It felt as though the slow moments in Jin Roh felt very empty and it didn't feel like as if it needed to be that way, from how the characters talk very monotonous and slow for no real reason except to stretch out the scenes longer to make the movie longer. That and also Oshii is not the world's best screenwriter, that's for damn sure. For the Red Riding Hood Symbolism and why it doesn't work, is that fact that it isn't handled well in the sense that it's constantly shoved down your throat. There are ways of handling symbolism in an intelligent way and that is it's supposed to be subtle. Where it's not supposed to be so obvious to the viewer. In here, they constantly recite the fairy tale throughout the 2nd half of the movie, the movie might as well just hit me over the head with the Red Riding Hood novel and it would've be just as subtle. And finally, the characterization is hardly strong. None of the characters had any substance for me to care what happens to them. Sure we have a nice background of the girl who blew herself up but the rest are just don't have any depth to them. |
GonzoLewdApr 12, 2013 6:06 PM
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Lindle said: And then I remember that Mamoru Oshii didn't actually direct this film, he just wrote the manga and storyboarded it. Bluh, i cannot brain the function correctanessly. In my defence, it looks, feels, and acts exactly like a Mamoru Oshii film in every way.DrGonzo7 said: the forced "Red Riding Hood" symbolism that doesn't work at all, and the absolutely atrocious slow pacing. To the pacing: no. Just NO. The pacing is the best thing about every single Oshii film. End of discussion. DrGonzo7 said: For the Red Riding Hood Symbolism and why it doesn't work, is that fact that it isn't handled well in the sense that it's constantly shoved down your throat. There are ways of handling symbolism in an intelligent way and that is it's supposed to be subtle. Where it's not supposed to be so obvious to the viewer. In here, they constantly recite the fairy tale throughout the 2nd half of the movie, the movie might as well just hit me over the head with the Red Riding Hood novel and it would've be just as subtle. I don't really buy that a lack of subtlety to symbolism by default makes it bad. Oh, and for the record, I actually agree with Gonzo about the characters - they're completely flat and dry and as a result Jin-Roh completely fails as a human drama. They do however suit the tone of the story quite well, so I can forgive this, and generally the total lack of emotional attachment to any of the characters is the only place where it loses major points - otherwise it's outstanding across the board. |
DrGonzo7 said: With regards to the pacing, let me make one thing clear: I do NOT mind slow pacing. Some of my favorite movies have just as much slow pacing as Jin Roh. While I do appreciate Oshii's pacing in most of his works, this one is where it's not as meaningful as the slow moments in Oshii's other films such as GitS. It felt as though the slow moments in Jin Roh felt very empty and it didn't feel like as if it needed to be that way, from how the characters talk very monotonous and slow for no real reason except to stretch out the scenes longer to make the movie longer. That and also Oshii is not the world's best screenwriter, that's for damn sure. Lindle said: Oh, and for the record, I actually agree with Gonzo about the characters - they're completely flat and dry and as a result Jin-Roh completely fails as a human drama. They do however suit the tone of the story quite well, so I can forgive this, and generally the total lack of emotional attachment to any of the characters is the only place where it loses major points - otherwise it's outstanding across the board. I have to bring into question what both of your expectations were with regards to the characters and how they caused the human drama to "completely fail". While I can sympathize with the fact that some of the best characters out there are well written, believable and have a dynamic set of personality traits, there are those works that attempt to use its cast as lenses into the setting or illustrate the main themes. When looking at the characters in Jin-Roh, perhaps they do seem a bit lifeless and emotionally detached from reality. And while this does indeed make them less dynamic as a result, one needs to look beyond their personalities and understand how their actions and mentalities are shaped by the political landscape surrounding Jin-Roh. Characters such as the young girl working as an agent and some of supporting cast were clear examples of this. Also, I would suggest taking a minute to think about why Fuze was so emotionally distant all the time. Was it not because he experienced great emotional trauma for witnessing the brutal murder of an innocent girl by his squad? Were his dreams that vividly replayed the very experience not convincing enough to effectively convey that his psychological state was constantly in jeopardy? Or perhaps the internal conflict of remaining loyal to the squad versus escaping from an oppressive rule still didn't reinforce the fact that his state of mind was emotionally complex? I would highly recommend rewatching the movie or at least key scenes once again with these thoughts in mind if there are still any thoughts lingering that Jin-Roh failed as a human drama. DrGonzo7 said: For the Red Riding Hood Symbolism and why it doesn't work, is that fact that it isn't handled well in the sense that it's constantly shoved down your throat. There are ways of handling symbolism in an intelligent way and that is it's supposed to be subtle. Where it's not supposed to be so obvious to the viewer. In here, they constantly recite the fairy tale throughout the 2nd half of the movie, the movie might as well just hit me over the head with the Red Riding Hood novel and it would've be just as subtle. I tend to agree with Lindle on this point. I'm not buying the criticism that symbolism necessarily needs to be subtle or intelligent in nature to be effective. First of all, you haven't clearly defined what "subtle" or "intelligent" mean in this case. Does this mean that you expected the metaphors to be nearly impossible to perceive without extensive research? Or that they need to in some way reference obscure streams of philosophy or existentialism? I certainly hope this is not the case as simple and apparent symbols can still be highly effective if carefully integrated with the main themes of the work. I will concede that the Red Riding Hood motif wasn't the most graceful example of metaphoric integration, however, I'd like to bring into question what you mean by it being constantly shoved down our throats. Just because the script incorporated passages from the original novel, that does not necessarily lessen its impact as they were still appropriately timed in accordance to Fuze's emotional state and the plot progression. This is just an aside, but another common criticism I find about the integration of the Red Riding Hood metaphor that I've observed is that it is contrived and childish in nature. I would just like to point out that criticism is primarily approaching its integration from a Westerner's perspective, as the origins of the fable are strictly European and would therefore appear "foreign" to most Japanese audiences. However, to many Westerners, this is a tale we grew up hearing as kids, perhaps even read to us by our teachers in elementary school. As such, there exists a cultural bias that this tale is childish due to our familiarity with it. The ultimate question then remains, would Western viewers have had such an issue if the passages were quoted from Greek or Oriental Mythology if they were integrated in the exact same manner? It is important to ask yourself this question if you are one that feels at odds with this element of the film. I may elaborate more on my thoughts at a later date to touch upon other aspects of the film, but if the time does not present itself, I will be going with a clear "yes" for the arguments I made here. |
Don_Don_KunApr 12, 2013 11:06 PM
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Don_Don_Kun said: I have to bring into question what both of your expectations were with regards to the characters and how they caused the human drama to "completely fail". While I can sympathize with the fact that some of the best characters out there are well written, believable and have a dynamic set of personality traits, there are those works that attempt to use its cast as lenses into the setting or illustrate the main themes. When looking at the characters in Jin-Roh, perhaps they do seem a bit lifeless and emotionally detached from reality. And while this does indeed make them less dynamic as a result, one needs to look beyond their personalities and understand how their actions and mentalities are shaped by the political landscape surrounding Jin-Roh. Characters such as the young girl working as an agent and some of supporting cast were clear examples of this. Also, I would suggesting taking a minute to think about why Fuze was so emotionally distant all the time. Was it not because he experienced great emotional trauma for witnessing the brutal murder of an innocent girl by his squad? Were his dreams that vividly replayed the very experience not convincing enough to effectively convey that his psychological state was constantly in jeopardy? Or perhaps the internal conflict of remaining loyal to the squad versus escaping from an oppressive rule still didn't reinforce the fact that his state of mind was emotionally complex? I would highly recommend rewatching the movie or at least key scenes once again with these thoughts in mind if there are still any thoughts lingering that Jin-Roh failed as a human drama. Even though I can see the point you make about how their personalities are supposed to seem lifeless because of the landscape that is tormenting them, it doesn't help the fact that the movie doesn't go any deeper to show us a huge back story about the world itself and how the people are affected by it. Yes you see revolutions and the social-political uprisings happening but they don't bother ever showing us they're true motives other than the fact that the film just uses the generic "the big government is bad and we must take it down" plot-point, that's all it is. Without it, I'm not emotionally invested into the trauma that the characters are going through. I was expecting something similar to the movie Come and See where all the trauma isn't forced fed with pointless symbolism that ultimately detracts the movie into becoming what at first was trying to be a realistic alternative history film to an Art-house film, an average one at that. Don_Don_Kun said: I tend to agree with Lindle on this point. I'm not buying the criticism that symbolism necessarily needs to be subtle or intelligent in nature to be effective. First of all, you haven't clearly defined what "subtle" or "intelligent" mean in this case. Does this mean that you expected the metaphors to be nearly impossible to perceive without extensive research? Or that they need to in some way reference obscure streams of philosophy or existentialism? I certainly hope this is not the case as simple and apparent symbols can still be highly effective if carefully integrated with the main themes of the work. I will concede that the Red Riding Hood motif wasn't the most graceful example of metaphoric integration, however, I'd like to bring into question what you mean by it being constantly shoved down our throats. Just because the script incorporated passages from the original novel, that does not necessarily lessen its impact as they were still appropriately timed in accordance to Fuze's emotional state and the plot progression. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear what I meant about subtle or intelligent. Here's where I stand on using symbolism the right way: You don't force feed the audience the metaphors or symbols, you have to let the audience figure out the metaphors themselves by putting the symbolism in the background, not the foreground. That's what subtle is to me, I don't want the symbolism to be so obvious to me when I'm watching the film because I wouldn't be so invested in learning about the symbols themselves so much. Jin-Roh's symbolism relies on, like I said before, pointless narration of the story Little Red Riding Hood, and ghostly visions of the dead girl. This is tediousness at it's purist. I guess what I really mean is that the symbolism wasn't really needed in the film, you could've cut out all of it and it wouldn't have changed anything regarding towards the plot of the film. Unless your film's plot is entirely guided by symbolism, then you may use as many metaphors or symbols as you want to make it, otherwise just stick with a normal structure so we can all breathe easier. Another negative that I forgot to mention is the dialogue between characters. It's not far fetched to say that Oshii is not the best dialogue writer in anime. He often writes dialogue that doesn't seem natural the way most people in real life would talk to each other, like monologues that make the character do not seem like actual people but almost robotic, though GitS is an exception for obvious reasons. Jin Roh's dialogue is not only written in a mediocre fashion but it's delivered in such a slow way where conversations don't seem like actual conversations. |
GonzoLewdApr 13, 2013 12:04 AM
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