| No, for me character-driven work always works on a deeper level than plot-driven. In the end, stories are about people; it's easier and in my opinion more satisfying to start with a character you can either identify with or that you can at least understand. Ambiguity is a turn off in that respect, and the characters of Wizard are just too ambiguous. Haruto: ambiguous. Koyomi: pure mystery (and slightly sexist, but that's most Japanese media). And so on and so on. When I'm writing, often the best way to start is to create a character with a distinct motivation, then "walk them around" in a narrative until they run into something that creates conflict. Then the plot develops (unless you're trying really hard to write some kind of plot-less character portrait, which is rarely). My point is, the plot becomes shallow when your characters don't have a distinct motivation and SOME depth. In fact, even attempts at plot feel forced or aimless, or both. Imagine reading a story or watching a movie where a character who you learn nothing about simply wanders around doing everyday things that seem to have no connection or meaning. It's boring. Even when plot-less stories are written (they are written, and published, and even awarded), they have to have a character who is somehow compelling, and usually the narrative is some kind of commentary on life with a particular voice and style. That's a different kind of depth. That's more like art than entertainment. But when you don't have character depth, plot depth, or any depth at all, and it's supposed to be entertainment, all the special effects in the world isn't going to cut it for long. Even kids get bored by junk. You're training them to be a mindless consumers. I guess that's what they want, right? It's just easier to create depth, RECOGNIZABLE depth, in a story by starting with depth in a character. Even if it's not *that* deep, it still has to be there. Look, Blade is a separate discussion, but I think they could have gone deeper, sure. But when I look back on it, I have a good sense of who the characters were, why they did what they did (aka what they wanted), and how that drove the plot. Looking back on Wizard, all I can think is, "WTF. Why was everyone doing anything anyway?" I think more about the style, the costumes, the effects, and the annoying belt sounds. I know why: because Toei just wants to create a flashy toy commercial. So long as the gadgets leave an impression, who cares about the characters? NO. If you're going to write a show or a book or a comic for kids then you need to take the opportunity to really inspire them. "I want be as cool as Kamen Rider Wizard, with his belt, sword, and gun!" is not what kids should be left with thinking. Why not, "I want to be as driven and hard-working as Haruto because he always manages to beat the bad guys that way!" (oh my god he so does not. He just... powers up with no work whatsoever and eats donuts. WTF) or "I want to protect my family and friends just like Haruto because I love them like he loves his!" (If only they'd developed him further and earlier... does Haruto even have a family? I can't even remember!) or "I want to study hard and become a great wizard like Haruto! He spends a lot of time trying to learn new magic so he can save the world, beat the enemies, and impress his friends! I want to do that too!" (He stumbled into it, and has it all handed to him, dammit!). I can go on and on. But in the end, we don't really have much sense of Haruto's wants, his motivation. He was attacked; he survived. Some guy says to him, "you can become a wizard!" and gives him the means, and then he fights bad guys because... he can? Because it was his "destiny"? I really do think good plot arises out of good characters. Good characters can actually make me forgive the stumbles that inevitably occur in plot. But even a stylish, tightly plotted story becomes boring if the character isn't clear. You just... you just CAN'T HAVE a tightly-plotted story without character development of any kind. I don't know what you see that I don't, but everything story I've read, every film or television show I've watched, and ever writing lesson I've endured informs me that PLOT.IS.CHARACTER. A story is the physical or spiritual journey of a character. Anything less, art aside, is bullshit. Maybe it's just a personal preference thing. Is my brain too turned on? But I think Toei is sending the wrong message by foregoing character and plot development in favour of featuring more toys. Wizard isn't even THAT bad. It has its moments! The characters just needed a bit more of an active role, like a big push on a swing, to get them going. Plot would've taken care of itself. |
| <---made of awesome! |
| 47 |
| Ghost in the Shell. We know very little about the Major and her motivations. We know a little about Batou and Aramaki. We know more about Togusa. And yet it is deep. We know even less in the original movies. And yet there is depth. Kino no Tabi is pretty deep and while Kino is characterized later, we spend a lot of time without knowing much about the main character. And so on. Wizard is a bad example, because it has almost no plot. But this discussion isn't about Wizard. If it was, I wouldn't be arguing. But W had a good plot, for instance. "He was attacked; he survived. Some guy says to him, "you can become a wizard!" and gives him the means, and then he fights bad guys because... he can? Because it was his "destiny"? " Because with great power comes great responsability. You can't really complain about that. Most heroes out there just fight because they have powers and feel like they can make the difference by helping people. Also, that attacked - survived - becomes hero is rider tradition. Haruto had parents who died and left a strong impression on him. He has a good motivation. And no he doesn't struggle and has no real attachments besides Koyomi, which are problems. Also, if its messages, there were some very good messages in 4z, for instance. We can't use Wizard to judge all the franchise. Nor our first impressions of Gaim's lameness. |
m4rc0 said: 47 Didn't you say awhile ago that it was unlikely they would go with something so obvious? XD |
| <---made of awesome! |
| Yes, I wanted to believe XD |
| It's okay. We all like to hope sometimes. XD |
| <---made of awesome! |
| Yes, it was my last hope XD |
| 48: Oh my god. XD Everything I expected to happen... happened. About Koyomi: 3 episodes left! |
| <---made of awesome! |
| I didn't get that at all from your post, but it's cool. I wasn't trying to correct you, just expressing my opinion. It's either impossible, or impossible without such a huge sacrifice that no one could live with it. That's how magic works, right? You always get less back than what you put in. |
| <---made of awesome! |
| Don't worry about that. I was just aligning our ideas. I wasn't bothered by it or anything. Now about magic, that depends on the story. Many times yes, you can do the impossible by sacrificing a lot. In others, it exists just so you can do great things without the sacrifice. For Beast, is the former. For Wizard not so much, but it still is, with Dragon and stuff. |
| Yeah, I guess it's tough to predict because Wizard contradicts itself sometimes when it comes to magic. Though this series does seem to be leaning toward a tragic ending... |
| <---made of awesome! |
| I really want it to go that way, but I don't believe it will. I mean, after what they did in W... |
which is kinda new for a KR final foe What the precedent in KR for pulling off a "suddenly, Necron/Zeromus"? |
| 49: |
| <---made of awesome! |
| 49 50 51 |
| 52 |
| 53 So, about Wiz in general. Haruto is a great Rider. He's a true hero. I also liked how he's strong but doesn't have a terrible personality, like some riders (like Tendo). He's friendly and funny. And besides the terrible belt voices and the hand belt, the suits are all very good. Unfortunately, he didn't have much development as a character (at least he had some, unlike Shotaro). 2nd has a great concept. With crisis comes chance. He was also a very heroic and funny character. Unfortunately, they overdid his weirdness and downplayed his crisis/chance thing. He also didn't get much development. As for the villains, I really like how they didn't do the Lucky Clover routine and the commanders that needed to die died when they should. The others started to flee when Haru got his last upgrade. Though Medusa did waste lots of chances to kill the riders. Phoenix was boring and Gremlin had an interesting concept, but he was mostly irritating until the end, when he showed how he could be a great villain. I liked how his ambition was to be human again since he became a Phantom unwillingly. Medusa was AWESOME. She was a cool, competent and no nonsense villain. And that evil smile! She's the best. The main villain was just ok. He spent most of the series being a mystery and while his intentions where interesting, as a character he was just a plot device. Normal Phantons had good design and they cast the strangest actors to play them. That was cool. The supporting cast was interesting. Wajima was just there. Shunpei is the uncool, goofy friend with no coordination. He didn't become more than that. And most of his antics overlaped with the 2nd, so he became even less relevant. Koyomi was cute and played her part of damsel in distress very well. She showed a lot of fiber when she needed too. She was a good character. But besides the main plot, she was rarely used in the series. A waste Rinko was awesome. A strong, competent, funny and beautiful woman. And yet she was also wasted. She didn't help as much as she could and didn't get a lot of development. a total waste. The characters had great chemistry between themselves. Their moments were good, but the show didn't rely on that as much as it should. The choreaography was excellent. Wizard's moves were very cool, though they overdid it sometimes and it lost the roughness a good fight needs. Since Wiz as precise and fluid, 2nd had the sloppy fighting style, which was also ok, but not as cool. As for the plot... The finale was interesting. They didn't use magic to solve the drama, which was a huge plus. Gremlin's ambition was interesting and the main goal of the main villain was also very interesting. But that doesn't erase weeks of boring and formulaic 2 eps arcs that focused on nobodies and forgot to develop the main cast (just like in 4z). Sure, not all arcs have to move the plot forward or develop the cast, but they almost never did it and in the end they lacked moments to shine. And the plot twist could be seen through early in the series. Wiz had great action and characters, the main plot (near the end) and ending were good and the villains were also good or at least ok. But it just followed the formula too much, lacked time for the characters and didn't have a really complex plot, so it ended up having lots of style but lacking substance. |
| ^What he said. The +2 episodes were actually more interesting to me than the series. Whaaaaaaaaat? XD I just really liked then, okay! They were funny. XD ... And now I really miss Nitou. =/ WHY must I always fall for the secondary riders. |
| <---made of awesome! |
| super hero wars Z |
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