Forums

Yeah, and it's really saddening how much credibility and popularity it has gained around here. It's almost ridiculous.


I'm extremely surprised that you of all people is ignorant of how the Japanese idol industry works in Japan, jmal. I generally never bother answering to these bashing posts about Japanese idols fans since most users here are completely unable to understand cultural differences between different countries, and will always judge Japanese idol otakus according to Western values and morals, but I never thought you will join the bashing wagon, to be honest.


jmal, an idol getting married means she is 'graduating', so of course the fan club is getting closed. Remember that even though being a seiyuu and an idol are different things, the two careers frequently overlap. I imagine that the only people getting bothered by Rie's retirement from her idol career are idol otakus. Most Japanese anime otakus will only take this news badly if her marriage would also mean her retirement as a seiyuu.

It's not that bad site - i've found thanks to them manga about trout, yes I mean fish.
Plus a lot of creepy stuff

but whole thing is one more proof that Lem was right when he said:
"I hadn't known there were so many idiots in the world until I started using the Internet."

still if those are problems of people... I kind of allows me to appreciate my life more (which is still pretty awesome)

I do understand, but that understanding has never made me feel any more positive about the more extreme fringe of idol otakudom. It's only made me feel more negative about it. Tanaka Rie is a real human being, not an anime character, and deserves to be respected as such. The reality/fiction line is inviolable for me.

That idol otaku may find comfort in the "otome" fantasy does not, by itself, bother me too much and for that matter isn't really my business. I don't share the interest in real adult women play-acting idealized purity, but whatever. I can at least understand the fundamental attraction it holds for others, and it's not unique to Japanese culture either, though perhaps it's more pronounced there than in some other places.

My issue is with the ridiculous drama that often follows any and all revelations about the private lives of female (and presumably male too, but I don't follow them) seiyuu/idols. Mostly seiyuu because I do not follow non-seiyuu idols. I'm sure you know the various recent drama flashpoints as well as I: Toyosaki and Tom Hack, Taketatsu's high school maybe-boyfriend, Hirano's... everything, so on and so forth.

But the smashed CDs, burned photobooks, vicious and childish internet comments, death threats, the wailing and gnashing of teeth about how tragic it is that the woman in question has dared to have a romantic relationship with someone - that's all totally indefensible in my mind. When I heard the Toyosaki rumors my first reaction was "Holy shit that's awesome, Yui and the composer of K-ON! music, how much cooler a couple can there be?". That's a normal, healthy reaction in my opinion. Feeling personally wronged on a deeply emotional level and making a public spectacle of yourself complaining about it is an outrageously unhealthy reaction.

But I don't care about the health of the melodramatic fans so much as the well-being of the seiyuu/idol in question and how they're affected by the negative reactions from so-called fans. A man or woman should be able to celebrate personal milestones with their 'adoring" fans, not have to hide those developments or become pariahs within their communities because of it. That's not love. That's not respect. That's clinging to a mirage and then shitting in the sand for being dry. Even if a professional seiyuu/idol is "prepared" for it, that doesn't make it any less wrong or potentially hurtful. The only bright side to it is that the loudest complainers are going to be the minority most of the time.

Either way, people should stick to 2D if they don't want to deal with the inconveniences of reality.

^
To make it short for you.

Understanding =/= Agreeing/Accepting

Honestly who give a damn about those otaku/stalkers?
It is the man and the woman who agree to get married while knowing the consequent of their action. Therefore there is no need for people to worry about it.

Well, I don't mean she is saying that herself, but thats the message the fans get from her... since they like her as an idol since they think shes supposedly pure and doesn't have interest in men or anything. So seeing her get married is everything against their ideal view of these women.

As an idol, you sign up for this stuff... you need to understand how your "fans" feel about you, so you need to expect these reactions from this. Its why I feel this is a career ending move, since Rie Tanaka is a long time veteran... she knows enough to know how people would react. So now that shes done with the seiyuu industry and wants to move onto other things, she can finally marry.

Ah...are you forgetting that an idol is precisely a manufactured product which sells her fictitious idealized image? How can you demand her fans to treat her as a "real human being" when her work is precisely to be as fictitious as possible? Remember, to be an idol a person has to become something worth to be idolized.
But at the same time I understand that it's really difficult for Westerners to even begin to understand such foreign concept since there's nothing even remotely similar in our cultures, but when I try to explain that concept to an American, I personally use the example of Disneyland (since I don't think Disneyland and the Japanese idol culture are that different): A manufactured place whose business is to sell fictitious dreams and happiness.



As I said before, don't confuse seiyuu with idols. A lot of idols are seiyuus (like Aya Hirano) but just being a seiyuu doesn't get you that treatment. You can be a seiyuu, J-pop singer or actor/actress in Japan but as long as you are not an idol nobody really will care if you get married or not. Most Westerners get really confused with this point since a lot of idols are also singers, VA and actresses, so a lot of people here believe that an idol in Japan is just another name for a singer, VA or/and actress like in the US, but nothing could be further from the truth.


If they wanted to celebrate personal milestones with their fans, they wouldn't become idols, as simple as that. The moment you profit from your idol status, in my opinion, you lose the right to demand to be treated as a non-idol celebrity by your fans and the media.


I find very hypocrite that you are criticizing Japanese idol otakus for not wanting to deal with the inconveniences of reality, when here in the West the whole child-rearing process consists of precisely censoring everything that could soil the holy innocence of our children and teens so that they believe everything in the world is a Disneyland theme park full of dreams and happiness.


Exactly. If you don't want reactions like these from your fans, you should refrain from entering the idol industry.


Ah...no. Her career as an idol is over, but her career as a seiyuu is a completely different matter. Of course, there are idol fans who are also anime fans, but the two things are fundamentally different, even though they overlap frequently. Unless she wants to be a stay-at-home wife, there shouldn't be any reason for her to quit her job as a VA.
Remember that Rie is not the same as Aya Hirano. Aya was primarily an idol, which was also a seiyuu, J-pop singer, actress and TV celebrity while Rie is primarily a seiyuu and singer. The idol part of her career is pretty small, and she appeals primarily to the anime otaku community (which wouldn't care at all if she is married or not as long as she doesn't quit her job), not the Japanese idol fandom.

Be more like Aya Hirano if you think you have the skill to do your job properly otherwise you have to take care your fans more than your actual job.

The concept is not nearly as alien as you're making it sound. An idol is fundamentally a kind of entertainer; that takes the form of, most often, singing, acting, public appearances, photo shoots, etc. And if you can do things like that and are young and are pretty, then you can be marketed as an "idol". The concept is not radically different from teen/20-something celebrity elsewhere. Slightly different execution in some areas (heavier emphasis on virginity, which is my biggest problem with it), but nothing difficult to understand. Sex sells, youth sells, "perfect" personalities sell, and Japan is not unique here. I can't even say the exploitative and obsessive manner of it is unique to Japan either, and I don't like it any better here than I do there.


But this is just the problem! I find both the industry (when taken to extremes) and the fandom (when taken to extremes) equally disturbing. Of course the business model and the fandom must go hand-in-hand; neither can exist without each other.

But this is about Tanaka Rie. She did not reveal herself to be a gangbanging prostitute with a crack addiction. She married a well-respected peer in her industry. There is a fundamental difference here, right? I am not willing to accept an industry or a fandom where such a thing is considered a "betrayal". Understanding the mindset doesn't make it okay by me. The best I can allow is that they're being manipulated by the industry; but I find that a poor excuse.

And for crying out loud most of this discussion seems moot because she's not some 17 year old pop starlet being pushed purely as a sex symbol for six months before disappearing into obscurity. She's a 33 year old adult woman and a top tier veteran of her craft, and that is what everyone will remember her for when she retires - which she hasn't even done yet anyway. The "but idol otaku are used to..." or "she knew what she was getting into..." should barely apply if at all in this case, even if I thought they were decent justifications, which I generally do not.

I see a distinction between this and, say, that AKB girl fucking (or whatever she did) a fan. She should be able to fuck whoever she wants, but nonetheless I'm not too shocked that it basically dead-ended her career. Unfortunate but there's almost a defensible logic to the decision. Someone like Tanaka Rie or even Toyosaki or Taketatsu aren't comparable.


I'll need you to point out where I defended or even discussed western culture (the very idea that I would amuses me) before I can hope to reply. If not, well, I don't think that's how hypocrisy works.

Pretty much this.

However, we are not idol otakus here. We don't give a damn about anything other than her seiyuu career. Even if she quit her seiyuu career fans should be supportive too. It's her decision.

I think jmal is criticizing the overall delusions of the more hardline idol otakus in general. The fact that the industry was designed to encourage this type of reaction doesn't make these reactions pleasant. Using the argument "this is the idol industry and how it works" does not invalidate the criticism about it. That's not how argumentation works.

Also let's not be delusional about the matter by reading Sankaku. That site is just mostly propaganda and a nest of trolls. The majority of the idol fans are regular people. Only the hardliners are more hardcore. Even then, what they say on the Internet is just 2ch and 4ch level of Internet trolling. It's called having a low mental age on the Internet syndrome.



jmal wasn't defending western culture. That's not hypocrisy. And please no more "people don't understand Japanese culture". Unless you are Japanese yourself. Even then, a lot of foreigners understand Japanese culture, sometimes more than the Japanese themselves. However, it is true that most East Asians also share a common and affiliated cultural background as opposed to Westerners.

i remember a certain anime convention in akiba in japan 2 years ago, there's this fan who asked a seiyuu (dont know her actually, since i am just a passer by going to work) this: "if she retires, how would she like to be remembered. by anime character or as you?"

there's a momentarily pause, but she answered: "i want to be remembered as me."
( its a simple nihon so i can understand.)

well not all seiyuu would answer that... it would be generalization if i say all...

but i think this scene is enough to tell what jmal is saying... seiyuus want to be respected (and remembered) as a human not as the fictitious character we all know because yep that's technically disrespect

just my IMHO...

Yes, sure the fans are the financial support. However, idols are not supposed to be their slaves.

No, the heavier emphasis is not really on virginity but on public image and appearances. Remember that idols are pretty much trading their personal lives for fame, so anything that goes against the ideal they are trying to sell is forbidden. And that goes whether the idol is female or male, there's no difference here. And forget any boyfriend/girlfriend problem, if somebody in the media finds that an idol has been for example, smoking since she or he is 18 (legal age in Japan is 20, I believe) and makes it public the talent agency will drop that idol immediately. Something as simple as smoking can completely destroy an idol career forever.


Well, anything taken to extremes is disturbing and dangerous.


It was exactly this point that made me write my first reply to your post.
First, why are you so worked up by the closure of Rie's official fan club? There's no controversy or anything of the sort in the news. It's simply saying that she got married and her official fanclub is closing. If I remember correctly, during Hirano Aya's controversy, it was announced that her official fan club closed the same day she left her management agency, which has always led me to believe that official fan clubs are managed by the idol's agency in some way, so the news of the closure of Rie's official fan club may be because she wants to leave the firm or something along those lines.
The curiosity as to what led you to respond in a manner so unlike your usual informative and level-headed responses is what made me originally believe that you simply were unfamiliar with the Japanese idol industry in general.


You are criticizing a group of people belonging to a different culture because they don't want to deal with the inconveniences of reality, yet our own culture worships idealization so much that the only movies children are allowed to watch are the ones where they are made believe that the whole world is a fairy tale where every story has a happy ending.
That said, now re-reading what I wrote I found my past post hostile and really uncalled for, I apologize.


Yes, the idol industry is pretty mainstream in Japanese society. That's why I never thought that Sankaku's attempt to make the typical Japanese anime otaku into the worst type of idol otaku would be that successful since after all, the two subcultures are really incomparable in size and a fast search in Google would tell you how ridiculous Sankaku's claims are. But sadly, I was very wrong.


Well, generally people don't understand foreign cultures and much less concepts that go against their own personal morality. Culture shock can be a very nasty thing.


The main difference is that Western societies are individualistic by nature, so in this case we have people becoming enraged by the mere thought of people not respecting an idol's individuality and right to do whatever he/she wishes with his/her life, while Eastern societies are collectivistic by nature, so the interdependence of the individual is the number one priority, where the well-being of the majority outweighs your own. So criticizing a group belonging to a collectivistic country using the values and morals of an individualistic society has always seemed fundamentally wrong to me.

I originally wrote "purity' (in a broader sense) before changing it. Virginity is just the most touchy/creepy aspect of it.


Right, so I think our disagreement is over the threshold at which fan behavior switches from acceptable to extreme. I have a lower tolerance for the internet outbursts that follow (even entirely benign or outright positive) personal life revelations of other human beings.

This is in part because while those fans feel protective of their fantasy image, I feel protective of the individuals I like (and their careers). When they are badmouthed by people, including and especially by self-professed supporters, I cannot accept that as proper behavior. I don't care what kind of precedent it has in the industry, or what country it's occurring in.

I think this not being clear is part of the confusion, but I don't think I've commented much if at all on the idol phenomenon except when it's intruded on individuals primarily attached to the anime and anisong industry (in part because I don't care about much of anything outside of it, save Vocaloid, an interesting topic vis a vis idoldom in its own right). It's true that I find elements of idoldom (and celebrity in general, the world over) distasteful, but I rarely have occasion to think about it except when it makes itself known here. The line of idol vs non-idol is incredibly blurry though, so you get "idol otaku-like" reactions when someone is young and pretty enough, regardless of their primary occupation or how they started in the entertainment business. But those fringe reactions should stay on the hardcore obsessive fringe, in my opinion.

I obviously have no bone to pick with the presumably sane silent majority of idol fans who can enjoy a personality and their output without needing to dictate draconian limitations on their personal lives.


I took "fanclub" to be a fan-managed organization, but if Tanaka had a hand in agreeing to close it, that could be different. So I'll tentatively take that specific reply back for lack of evidence.


Again, it's only hypocrisy if I had said western culture is better, or drawn some other logically contradictory comparison between the two. But I didn't comment on western culture at all.

Oh and I don't think indulging in fictional/virtual worlds is bad. I watch anime after all, and Hatsune Miku is my favorite musical artist by far. It's treating real people as fictional where we run into problems - both with the fans who do it and the industry that promotes it.

If I had to apportion "blame", the entertainer would get the smallest share by far. The industry, driven by demand, railroads young girls who want to be entertainers into these roles (whether partially or fully); I can't believe that the girls themselves are (by and large - I'll allow that some might) waking up one day saying "I really would love to become a sexualized fictional stage persona lusted after by occasionally psychotically possessive 20-somethings." But the industry follows the money.

That's a bit of an age gap but I wish them luck and many congrats.

Wish them all the happiness.

Late to the party, but my sentiments exactly. ^_^

Meantime, Rie Tanaka has posted a photo of the wedding on her Twitter account.

I disagree, for the obsessive seiyuu lovers, according to their perspective, she is an old hag by now @ 33

Second she is not a ***_insert your own adjective-***** woman that was screwing around sexually with several of her coworkers.....


I see no problem at all, save for a minority of her more hardcore followers-.

I Think you and me know plenty of examples of female seiyuu getting married and their seiyuu work is the same as always, Tanaka Rie is a consolidated seiyuu by now, not a seiyuu over-hyped and over-rated by one(or 2) equally over-rated character/series, that got famous basically overnight.

I can only see majority of people congratulating her.