Fate/Grand Order: Zettai Majuu Sensen Babylonia Episode 20 Discussion

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I am sorry but Shirou is nowhere near the other 3 in the lack of characterization and development.

Not sure about Hakuno tho since I havent read CCC yet but even the little he has in Extra(and even the first Extella) is already more than what Ritsuka has in all of part 1.

Sieg started good and then got fucked up.

Mar 18, 2020 1:58 PM

#153

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ssjokg said:
I am sorry but Shirou is nowhere near the other 3 in the lack of characterization and development.

Not sure about Hakuno tho since I havent read CCC yet but even the little he has in Extra(and even the first Extella) is already more than what Ritsuka has in all of part 1.

Sieg started good and then got fucked up.

Shirou is well, an actual character but he isn't the most interesting character under the sun in my personal opinion. I agree it's a bit much to put him in the same realm as the others.

However the core points are all there.

Sieg in my opinion did not started good either. Hakuno is another self-insert but with monolgues that flesh him out a little. In the anime he was even worse.

Ritsuka is a self-insert that develops over the time because he is forced to grow a little or it would be absurd.

Rituska is undoubtebly the worst because he has no backstory or no actual agenda of his own and the anime gave him actual cringy scenes.

The problem with Ritsuka is that he was born with nothing in mind and Nasu wasn't interested in writing about him as a character but he can't be considered a self-insert either because Nasu i guess can't write actual self-inserts.

Mar 18, 2020 2:10 PM

#154

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GreenNet said:

ssjokg said:
I am sorry but Shirou is nowhere near the other 3 in the lack of characterization and development.

Not sure about Hakuno tho since I havent read CCC yet but even the little he has in Extra(and even the first Extella) is already more than what Ritsuka has in all of part 1.

Sieg started good and then got fucked up.

Shirou is well, an actual character but he isn't the most interesting character under the sun in my personal opinion. I agree it's a bit much to put him in the same realm as the others.

However the core points are all there.

Sieg in my opinion did not started good either. Hakuno is another self-insert but with monolgues that flesh him out a little. In the anime he was even worse.

Ritsuka is a self-insert that develops over the time because he is forced to grow a little or it would be absurd.

Rituska is undoubtebly the worst because he has no backstory or no actual agenda of his own and the anime gave him actual cringy scenes.

The problem with Ritsuka is that he was born with nothing in mind and Nasu wasn't interested in writing about him as a character but he can't be considered a self-insert either because Nasu i guess can't write actual self-inserts.

I am not sure what those "core points" are.

Ritsuka has no development in the game. He goes with the flow and that is the problem.Instead of acting he is reacting to stuff. Then Shimousa comes and tries to add something.

This is the the big difference with Hakuno.Hakuno has a personal goal, not one given to him by others because they have no other choice, and he acts as a person. His actions have consequences.
Hakuno's curiosity is what makes him a participant in the HGW, not luck.

We all know how Shirou's actions can change the development of the war so no point to even talk about it.

There is a reason why Camelot and Babylnia were the first good chapters.They changed the main characters, Gilgamesh in one and

in the other. Both old characters that the fans would like to see and explore more. He isnt just the camera-character in those two, he gets sidelined(as much as it is possible) by the two real MCs.

I dont have that much of a problem with his role in the anime but it is true that his screentime stole some good moments from the others.

ssjokgMar 18, 2020 2:16 PM

Mar 18, 2020 2:23 PM

#155

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@ssjokg

Now, i don't want people to start to think that i belive Ritsuka is a good character. He is BARELY a character and he can't absolutely stand on his own.

The core points of these characters are always: Harem protagonists, Pretty boys, hard working that never give up.

All of them do things that are simply bullshit from an objective stand point. Shirou's actions during his story are bullshit more than once. He does things that in no way should be possible and it's fine, i accept it. I accept their role, it's a fate staple.

Now, yes, Ritsuka is absolutely a dull character. And absolutely the others beats him but he is one that comes from an horrible spot. He was the only one that Nasu actually wanted as self-insert bu it does a shit job as self-insert aswell because he has too many traits. As soon they animated Babylonia, he could not be a self-insert anymore so he has to be judged as a proper character.

The others however (hakuno and sieg, not Shirou) make me even more angry because while they are characters with background and an idea in mind that isn't simply "this guy is average" They suck at their roles. Atleast Ritsuka doesn't steal glory from other more important characters, to me, he never did it. Gil shined constantly in this story and every servant always have their moment.

GreenNetMar 18, 2020 2:31 PM

Mar 18, 2020 2:47 PM

#156

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Shirou barely has a love triangle. You cant just add every character that likes him from every route, especially when some of them dont like him because of some charisma or other normal reason.
With the same logic Kiritusgu is a harem protagonist as well since at least 5 girls in his series are interested in him.

What does even mean that Shirou does impossible things? Rin does as well. The Shikis do as well. Know what their difference with Hakuno and Ritsuka is? They are established from the beginning as not normal people. They know magic, are trained in martial arts(both Shirou and R.Shiki) or have a special ability(Tohno) among other things. So why is it bullshit?Because Shirou is a male and supposedly normal?

Gil lost many lines that show more of his character(and Uruk's character if I can say that) in order to make Ritsuka be more than a camera.

Mar 18, 2020 2:56 PM

#157

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@ssjokg

It was mentioned that Kiritsugu had that trait too in an interview so yeah ,Kiritsugu if he wasn't made for suffering would be an harem protagonist aswell. But why mention him? he is actually a good character.

Shirou has Ayaka, Rin and Sakura. Can make Saber fall in love with him and let's not even ignore the extra adaptations so we can add Medusa and more. I am not saying i hate this, i am saying it's the same as the others. Fate protags always make fall in love girls with reasons that are...meh. These teens that are able to shag heroines or gods or saints!

Shirou is a 16 years old boy that fights against servants and only knows a bit of archery and funamental magic. Whatever the reasons they put, they are always huge stretches. I can accept them and i can be hype about them but if he is able to fucking beat Gilgamesh...i mean, it's always that shit. I don't want to start to say anything about it. But if Shirou's bullshit can be accepted, i can't see how Ritsuka's bullishit can't be accepted.

Rin wasn't my focus but the fact that she can even approach Caster was absurd. Shiki is a little different. And atleast these characters trained their whole life (Rin is a genuis, i can accept many things from her even if i don't like her)

Again with this idea of Gilgamesh cutted lines in order to have more Ritsuka. I suggest to watch again the anime. Ritsuka had a limited role, it seems as if he was always there to be the hero. What kind of adaptation did you watched?
Hell, if you wanna complain then complain about Ushiwaka or the rin faces. Eresh stole a whole episode with no opening when her recruitment was almost a joke.
It wasn't Ritsuka the reason they cut his lines and they still kept the most important parts. The only real complain for Gil is his last speech. What else was lost?

GreenNetMar 18, 2020 3:04 PM

Mar 18, 2020 3:12 PM

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GreenNet said:
It was mentioned that Kiritsugu had that trait too in an interview so yeah ,Kiritsugu if he wasn't made for suffering would be an harem protagonist aswell.

Shirou has Ayaka, Rin and Sakura. Can make Saber fall in love with him. I am not saying i hate this, i am saying it's the same as the others. Fate protags always make fall in love girls with reasons that are...meh.

Shirou is a 16 years old boy that fights against servants and only knows a bit of archery and funamental magic. Whatever the reasons they put, they are always huge stretches. I can accept them and i can be hype about them but if he is able to fucking beat Gilgamesh...i mean, it's always that shit. I don't want to start to say anything about it.

Rin wasn't my focus but the fact that she can even approach Caster was bullshit.

Again with this idea of Gilgamesh cutted lines in order to have more Ritsuka. I suggest to watch again the anime because i really can't see how Ritsuka was made to be more than what he is or what he said aside episode 20.

Jokes shouldnt be taken seriously. That way we have to admit that Cu is a shit Servant because he dies all the time.

I assume you mean Ayako and no lol.
Rin Sakura and Saber have legit reasons to fall for him and even then this doenst make them incapable of independence.they wont agree with him all the time, in fact Shirou is constantly antagonizing them in their routes because of his ideals or because

. They arent blinded by love and they actually never love him ALL at the same time so, at most we get a love triangle, which isnt a harem.

Shirou is a novice spellcaster with a mental disorder(which creates a RM), a fucking pro that has to willingly miss in archery and also trained in kendo by Kiritsugu.
Gillgamesh can be beaten by anyone if he is arrogant enough. like, it is his thing since forever.
You can dislike it as much as you want but the series gave real reasons why both Rin and Shirou can fight the Servants they fought.

It isnt an idea.It is what happened. Where is Gil's speech about Tiamat when he reappears?The final goodbye to Mother.
Never said Ritsuka became something more.I said they removed Gil's lines in order to give him more screentime.That doesnt mean that he became a better character.

Mar 18, 2020 3:37 PM

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@ssjokg

Those were no jokes. Those were things that they thought about while they created Kiritsugu as a character. And legit jokes at times are actual reasons in the Nasuverse.

Now please, can we stop comparing Ritsuka to Shirou? I never once belived Ritsuka was either a good character or he could be compared to Shirou. His situation is completely different.
He is the protagonist of a fucking Gacha game, ofcourse many things can't be done. Ofcourse servants have to get along for a reason or another one, otherwise the game it's no more.

Now, those three have reasons that are as filmsy as any other reason for Ritsuka. Not every servant loves Ritsuka by the way, it's up in the air for many.

Shirou is still a teen that in his fights never used Archery and what he knows should not be able to make him on par with Gil. NO MATTER how Gil was full of himself. It makes no sense.
Those are stretches. Those reasons are there only because Nasu wanted to see these fights.

I already said, Gil final speech it's the only thing that they cut that was important and it wasn't because of Ritsuka, because there was a lot of time for it. What else?

Why people are upset at someone as harmless as Ritsuka? Like, he doesn't do anything that great that stole any glory from anyone, he isn't annoying (aside when he shouts names) occasionally can act goofy. He is ok. A simple young man that does what he can.
In the anime he had two moments and you can't deny he is the MC of FGO so you need to make him worthy of such a role.

GreenNetMar 18, 2020 3:40 PM

Mar 18, 2020 3:38 PM

#160

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It hurts my brain to see Shirou mentioned in the same breath as Hakuno, Sieg and Ritsuka.

Shirou is a full-fledged character with actual depth and thought put into the intrinsics of how and why he thinks the why he does and that they're far from the bland cloth the other three are cut from.

And you have to ignore a huge amount of work done by the author to build a complex character to reach the notion that Shirou makes girls fall in love with him and that he has superpowers for no reason other than because that's what protagonists have and that's why Shirou has them.

>Shirou's actions during his story are bullshit more than once. He does things that in no way should be possible and it's fine, i accept it. I accept their role, it's a fate staple.

No, he does not. Everything he does and achieves is objectively logical by the internal logic of the word of the story. Again, to reach the point of Shirou being just like every other protagonist with poorly explained charisma and plot conveniences to excuse their presence and affect on the plot, you're ignoring walls and walls of text the authors put in place precisely so you don't do that.

Next you'll be telling me that Shirou is a self-insert.

> Shirou is still a teen that in his fights never used Archery and what he knows should not be able to make him on par with Gil. NO MATTER how Gil was full of himself. It makes no sense.

Here's the list of things you chose to ignore to say this and actually think you have a legit point:
1. Shirou mentally died in the Fuyuki fire, and as a result, his psyche became different from normal humans, to the point that he can use abilities previously known to be used by non-humans: Reality Marbles. This ability comes when you stop having a normal view for the world. This is how his mental illness affected his magecraft.
2. Shirou got one of the strongest Noble Phantasm in-universe embedded into his body since childhood, and that changed not only his potential and aptitude, it made him unique in ways unseen before, as you'd expect.
3. What Shirou knows that lets him beat Gil is a single ability that hard counters his. An ability he has to link himself to an actually competent mage to be able to use, and only for a very limited time.
4. Gil is what defeated Gil in that fight. To him goes the full-credit to why he was humiliated by Shirou.

But sure, let's ignore all that and say he's a harem protagonist like any other and that's why he won.

astroprogsMar 18, 2020 3:48 PM

Mar 18, 2020 3:49 PM

#161

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Sigh.Did they create him as one?Was he indeed making every female around him wet just by being near?No. The end.

Him being so good at Archery is used for other reasons that dont have to be explained here. And ofc what he knows doesnt let him fight Gil.It is what he learns later.The point is that he isnt your average normal teenager. And of course they are there in order to have those fights.But they make sense.
And here is the problem.

The Nega Genesis scene makes no fucking sense. Merlin is alive so he could go himself,King Hassan can clearly exist within Nega Genesis so he too can also go and Fou could just have teleported him right away.
The scene loses any and all point it could have when you realize they didnt have to sent the weakest among them(even counting Fou).

And before we even get there Merlin's explanation is fucking bullshit.How the fuck are living beings NOT established life forms?

They could have cut the OP and /or the ED.They could have reduced the scene by having Fou teleport him from the beginning.
It isnt that they gave him a scene.The problem is that they didnt try to make some space for a line that needed a few seconds.

Again.The problem isnt Ritsuka himself but how the staff decided to execute his scenes.

ssjokgMar 18, 2020 3:53 PM

Mar 18, 2020 4:08 PM

#162

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@astroprogs

I belive either i am not explaining myself properly (very possible) or people ignore my statements.

First, i already said and i know that Shirou is a proper character. He is very fleshed out. I played the visual novel and i do like him as a character.
I do find him annoying at times but that is part of what he is. However, what i wanted to say is that all the characters in Fate have things that are simply absurd to justify very specific things for the sake of hype of fanservice.

The romance between Saber and Shirou is one of the most obvious one that came to my mind. But it's not like i don't accept it. The fact that Shirou achieved certain things is also either dumb luck or stretches to make the story happen. And it's fine, i never said it's not fine.

No, i don't belive Shirou is a slef-insert. Never said that. Yes, i belive he is miles and miles better than any of those three while still being not a great character (aside his heaven's feel characterization)

Sieg, Hakuno and Ritsuka are dull characters but with the core ideas of Shirou. Each one with a different problem but if handled properly, they can be acceptable for what they are. Sieg and Hakuno are in my opinion handled like trash in their anime adaptations while Ritsuka's role was perfect for what this anime is.

I am starting to legit being annoyed by defending a character that has no great merits but let me end on this note. I don't actually hate any of them so maybe i have trash taste.

Mar 18, 2020 4:15 PM

#163

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@ssjokg

Why is it even a discussion? I simply said that all the fate protags have that trait. In a gacha game that effect is even more fleshed out. End.

Now we are totally shifting the problem. Because i also agree with the fact that the scene was a mess. Either because they explained it like shit (and they explained like shit almost everything in this anime) or because it doesn't stands on his own.

I agree. I totally agree. It's not the first time in the Nasuverse however. It's definetly one of the worst example and they should have executed such a scene in a different way.

My point is that this is not Ritsuka's fault if the scene was shit. Because at his core, i liked the idea but it had too many buts and ifs.

Mar 18, 2020 4:22 PM

#164

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I'm the one who honestly feels like his post wasn't properly read, because of this exact sentence:

However, what i wanted to say is that all the characters in Fate have things that are simply absurd to justify very specific things for the sake of hype of fanservice.

...is exactly what I've been trying to dispute in my post. Shirou absolutely does not have things that are "simply absurd to justify for the sake of hype of fanservice".

>The romance between Saber and Shirou is one of the most obvious one that came to my mind.

The romance makes sense. A young teenage girl falling in love with another teenage boy who shares her exact mindset and ideals isn't absurd or out of the question. This gets bolstered even more when you read/listen to the Garden of Avalon and see how everyone around her treated her and why Shirou, in particular, was able to make a difference when Kay and Bedivere couldn't.

The issue with that romance is that Nasu sucked at executing it in a better way than continuously tell us and himself that Saber is a girl. It's a side effect of Saber originally not being one, but it is what it is.

Ultimately, it's natural and logical for such a romance to take place, execution notwithstanding.

About Ritsuka, I'm mostly fine with what they did with him in Babylonia. This is truly the extent you can go with a character like his without completely rewriting the entire story to adjust his role there.

My issue is implying that Ritsuka isn't that different from previous Fate protagonists like Shirou, even in some ways.
I can see a more debatable argument for Sieg and Hakuno being less complex and more geared towards having unjustified and unearned "fake charisma" and plot conveniences to fit them better in their own story. This, however, does not apply to Shirou in the slightest.

astroprogsMar 18, 2020 4:26 PM

Mar 18, 2020 5:10 PM

#165

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@astroprogs

Shirou is able to fight Gil, Kill heracles in one move, he has a stupid powerful ability. When he fight with Archer he gets his experience through fighting. All of these things are cool sure but they are clearly forced things to let a japanese teen fight with gods.
Because shirou won the lottery with his powers or with certain things that happen. Sure i already know the reasons and the justification for everything but they are still putting a 16 years old that never fought anything in his life before against literal tempered warriors with godlike powers.

Saber is not a teenager despite her apparence. She is an adult that had to deal with a kingdom and had a long life. The other forced nature of this relationship is that all the camelot knights treated Saber in that very specific way.
Apparently no one saw her as a woman despite everything and no one shared her ideals or if they did, they all had something that made impossible a relationship, love or sex. It's another stretch to justify that romance. I accept it but it's the same shit that happens with the other characters. Thankfully not all the waifus of Fate are treated like that. I would be much more open with my mindset if Saber actually had lovers or Guinevere wasn't treated as an incovinient factor. And still...16 days, with a teenager. It's anime and i am ok with it for that reason alone.

But you kid yourself if you think it was logical. Sure, love is not always logical but it was executed poorly. Now Sakura's romance was better, much better in fact and more beliveble. Rin aswell is more belivble. I don't mind those romances.

Ritsuka, Hakuno and Sieg are similar and all three of them are a product of Shirou. I never said they are better characters or good characters. I just said that the core traits of Shirou are borrowed from him to them. The superficial characteristics that all the fate protags have. Just this.

I hope this cleared up a little what i meant. Because sure as hell i don't want anyone to belive that i can't see the difference between an actual character (Shirou) someone that is meant to satisfy Otaku's dreams (Hakuno, Ritsuka) or characters that suck at their core (Sieg)

I absolutely love Fate universe and there are many,many passages that are well written. But despite how amazing and cool of a franchise it is for me, i will not deny the HUGE holes in it or the bullshit they come up with. The retcons or things that are way too convoluted or the need of extra material to understand many concepts.

holes and flaws that i have no problem to accept because the result is often great.

Mar 18, 2020 5:30 PM

#166

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GreenNet said:
@ssjokg

It was mentioned that Kiritsugu had that trait too in an interview so yeah ,Kiritsugu if he wasn't made for suffering would be an harem protagonist aswell. But why mention him? he is actually a good character.

Shirou has Ayaka, Rin and Sakura. Can make Saber fall in love with him and let's not even ignore the extra adaptations so we can add Medusa and more. I am not saying i hate this, i am saying it's the same as the others. Fate protags always make fall in love girls with reasons that are...meh. These teens that are able to shag heroines or gods or saints!

Shirou is a 16 years old boy that fights against servants and only knows a bit of archery and funamental magic. Whatever the reasons they put, they are always huge stretches. I can accept them and i can be hype about them but if he is able to fucking beat Gilgamesh...i mean, it's always that shit. I don't want to start to say anything about it. But if Shirou's bullshit can be accepted, i can't see how Ritsuka's bullishit can't be accepted.

Rin wasn't my focus but the fact that she can even approach Caster was absurd. Shiki is a little different. And atleast these characters trained their whole life (Rin is a genuis, i can accept many things from her even if i don't like her)

Again with this idea of Gilgamesh cutted lines in order to have more Ritsuka. I suggest to watch again the anime. Ritsuka had a limited role, it seems as if he was always there to be the hero. What kind of adaptation did you watched?
Hell, if you wanna complain then complain about Ushiwaka or the rin faces. Eresh stole a whole episode with no opening when her recruitment was almost a joke.
It wasn't Ritsuka the reason they cut his lines and they still kept the most important parts. The only real complain for Gil is his last speech. What else was lost?

I think I'm having severe brain damage here seeing you put Shirou in the same vein as Ritsuka.

How the hell do you even begin to compare the heroines of FSN falling in love with Shirou because of ACTUAL development to all the random servants in FGO falling for Gudao for the lulz when Fate, UBW and HF literally builds up the relationship between Shirou and the heroines.

And I won't even begin the discussion about Shirou's "bullshit" because it's the exact same things that's been discussed and debunked millions of time already in the past that should have been drilled to your heads already at this point.

Mar 18, 2020 5:56 PM

#167

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@GreenNet This honestly reads like you're too stuck on the concept of Shirou being a teenager to look any farther. You're basically saying "A Japanese teenager shouldn't be fighting these super being no matter how the plot justifies it".

This is beyond asinine to me. Plot reasons aren't "excuses" if they're logical and in-tune with the internal logic of the story, but you're adamant about seeing them as such.

"Teenagers shouldn't be able to do more than teenagers should do in this story of literal magical powers, end of the story."

I have no rebuttal to that because that's not really a logical argument, that's a personal hang up on your part.

>Saber is not a teenager despite her apparence. She is an adult that had to deal with a kingdom and had a long life.

She absolutely is. Artoria's chosen lifestyle forced her to stagnate mentally to the degree you see in all the F/SN routes and in HA. Artoria transformed herself willingly into a machine that exists to make her people happy. There's no place for personal growth because it's not needed.

Maturity isn't just aging. Artoria is basically the exact same little girl that pulled the sword from the stone. She's more ecperienced, but she's never more mature.

>Apparently no one saw her as a woman despite everything and no one shared her ideals or if they did, they all had something that made impossible a relationship, love or sex. It's another stretch to justify that romance.

This one again reads like "I don't like it, therefore it's not logical". Artoria was literally the prophecized and promised Once and Future King of Britain in her own lifetime, one who acted truly as such and perceived as a living breathing legend. This is not an environment to treat a human being like an actual human being, one who didn't want to be treated as such, at that.
The people who were truly close to her to make a difference had their own agenda, like Merlin, Guin, and Bedi. The only exception was Kay, but Artoria was so far gone for him, that he just gave up on her.
This relationship dynamic makes sense. You don't like it because you see Artoria as a character different from what she is and the people around her different from what they are.

Finally, I honestly just fundamentally disagree with your view on Shirou and you're trying to draw a comparison to the other MCs where none exists.
These characters share the common trait that they achieved grand results despite being teenagers and had girls fall in love with them, therefore this round peg fits in this square hole, is what you're saying.

astroprogsMar 18, 2020 6:02 PM

Mar 18, 2020 7:00 PM

#168

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@Dull_Lull

I am not going to discuss about such things again. If you read properly what i wrote, you would understand that i don't put Ritsuka and Shirou on the same level.
My point was completely different and i am tired to say the same things again and again.

@astroprogs

I am saying that a teenager (But even any human) with no experience in real fighting, that is childish and does stupid things shouldn't be able to kill or fight godlike beings. The plot can come up with a lot of reasons but they are filmsy most of the times. There is not good preparation for it because they constantly tell you that humans and servants are worlds apart.

Servants can literally run as fast as cars if not more. They have absurd strenght even weak ones and they have lots of experience yet Shirou can actually match their reflexes, has enough techinique to match them. How does this make any sense? Every rule is made up to close this gap.

Fate is constantly making up rules or exceptions. They make rules to break them. FGO story is the worst example of this by the way.

As for Saber. You see how many leaps and forced things we have to create for the opportunity of Shirou porking with King Arthur?

Everything seems so grand, so cool and so epic in the Camelot lore till Shirou pops up. Ofcourse i don't like it!

Basically no one other than Shirou was able to make her act like a teen once again? We have to make Arthur a girl, then all the men in her life never understood her or had other reasons to not be close to her, then we have to fix the guinevre problem, then we have to be sure that no one ever touched her virginity but she still had to make Mordred so let's create a crazy and convoluted reason for it.

Then, a woman that lived for years with that mindset breaks it in 16 days because of a teenager. A teen that isn't particularly charming, smart or mature. And it's not like Saber is the only one among the waifus of Fate with this problem.

Maybe you are right. maybe i see Saber as more than what she is. Then Saber isn't probably the good character i belive she is.

If you think all of that is logical, fine. It's a fundamentally different point of view but it's not like mine is wrong. Shirou is perfect (mentality wise and for his romance) in the Heaven's feel route, the route of saber is just wrong on various levels.

The comparison with the MCs wasn't something i wanted to focus on. I just wanted to say that the superficial charateristics of the Fate protags are the same. Not that they are the same types of characters.

GreenNetMar 18, 2020 7:16 PM

Mar 18, 2020 7:13 PM

#169

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I honestly have nothing more to add.

You continue to reiterate on the point: "I don't like it, therefore it's illogical, despite all the logical in-universe explanations" and as I said, I have no response to that.

I think it makes sense and I like it. You don't. It doesn't seem like there's any space or wiggle room for the discussion to move to at this point.

Mar 18, 2020 7:25 PM

#170

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Probably not, i think i missed the point of my arguments more than once.

By the way, aside the romance of Saber and Shirou, i do like all the bullshit things that happen in the Fate series. I just admit that they are bulllshit while other try to make it seems the reasons are logical and bullet proof.

Mar 18, 2020 7:30 PM

#171

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Basically I don't like it therefore it's bad.

Mar 18, 2020 10:00 PM

#172

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Dull_Lull said:
Basically I don't like it therefore it's bad.

I genuinely belive Saber/Shirou romance is written like trash. The rest is up in the air.

Mar 18, 2020 10:20 PM

#173

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GreenNet said:

Dull_Lull said:
Basically I don't like it therefore it's bad.

I genuinely belive Saber/Shirou romance is written like trash. The rest is up in the air.

Okay and based on the reasons you've stated it's still basically "I don't like it therefore it's bad."

Same applies for the things you've complained about how the Fateverse works.

Mar 18, 2020 10:26 PM

#174

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Aug 2018

121

No, no. You are right. Fate is flawless, there is nothing wrong with it. It's just me and my personal taste, sure.

Mar 18, 2020 11:16 PM

#175

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GreenNet said:
No, no. You are right. Fate is flawless, there is nothing wrong with it. It's just me and my personal taste, sure.

Nobody said it's flawless but based on the reasons you've stated... hmmm... yeah it's still basically "I don't like it therefore it's bad."

Mar 18, 2020 11:45 PM

#176

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Aug 2018

121

Dull_Lull said:

GreenNet said:
No, no. You are right. Fate is flawless, there is nothing wrong with it. It's just me and my personal taste, sure.

Nobody said it's flawless but based on the reasons you've stated... hmmm... yeah it's still basically "I don't like it therefore it's bad."

It's funny you say that because i AM a fate fan. I love almost everything about it. I do like Shirou and i do like Nasu's wacky world. So if i say some aspects of it are "not good" or silly or plain bad it's because i objectively think they are.

Fate is a very enjoyble work and one of my favourite franchises but it simply the reality that some aspects of it are dumb.

And the romance with Saber is simply a bad part of the story that could have been adjusted with a few changes but as it stands, it's not that good. And sure, love at times it's not logical but it's not even well written.

Mar 19, 2020 12:11 AM

#177

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GreenNet said:

Dull_Lull said:

Nobody said it's flawless but based on the reasons you've stated... hmmm... yeah it's still basically "I don't like it therefore it's bad."

It's funny you say that because i AM a fate fan. I love almost everything about it. I do like Shirou and i do like Nasu's wacky world. So if i say some aspects of it are "not good" or silly or plain bad it's because i objectively think they are.

Fate is a very enjoyble work and one of my favourite franchises but it simply the reality that some aspects of it are dumb.

And the romance with Saber is simply a bad part of the story that could have been adjusted with a few changes but as it stands, it's not that good. And sure, love at times it's not logical but it's not even well written.

Luv you're the one who keeps reiterating here that a lot of things are bullshit when you're literally presented again and again with walls of text on how things work and the logic behind it in its universe. Those things you mentioned didn't even need extra material outside the original work to explain things because it's literally in the main story such as Shirou and Saber's romance which is a whole entire route itself. You're the one who keeps insisting that it's bad because castles, kings and knights and a 16 year old teenager don't mix together.

Mar 19, 2020 12:55 AM

#178

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Aug 2018

121

Dull_Lull said:

GreenNet said:

It's funny you say that because i AM a fate fan. I love almost everything about it. I do like Shirou and i do like Nasu's wacky world. So if i say some aspects of it are "not good" or silly or plain bad it's because i objectively think they are.

Fate is a very enjoyble work and one of my favourite franchises but it simply the reality that some aspects of it are dumb.

And the romance with Saber is simply a bad part of the story that could have been adjusted with a few changes but as it stands, it's not that good. And sure, love at times it's not logical but it's not even well written.

Luv you're the one who keeps reiterating here that a lot of things are bullshit when you're literally presented again and again with walls of text on how things work and the logic behind it in its universe. Those things you mentioned didn't even need extra material outside the original work to explain things because it's literally in the main story such as Shirou and Saber's romance which is a whole entire route itself. You're the one who keeps insisting that it's bad because castles, kings and knights and a 16 year old teenager don't mix together.

Fights and many concepts of the Fate-verse have internal logic that sometimes it works and sometimes it's just convenient. That is why i call some of those aspects "bullshit"
I know the logic behind it and some of those are pretty understandble and others are honestly awful.

Saber's love for Shirou is not realistic and doesn't sit well with me because we have an adult and a kid. It's written awfully and it cheaps Saber's entire character. The very base idea of making King Arthur a woman acting tsunderish or being toyed around by teens in bed is silly but i should take it completely seriously. And yes, Shirou's dumb actions and dumb ideals make fall in love in a very short amount of time a girl that actually lived as a woman and had a long life surrounded by people. The very forced nature of their relationship is what makes me hate it.
People can post text walls but if the core idea is forced, it is forced.

Mar 19, 2020 1:21 AM

#179

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GreenNet said:

Dull_Lull said:

Luv you're the one who keeps reiterating here that a lot of things are bullshit when you're literally presented again and again with walls of text on how things work and the logic behind it in its universe. Those things you mentioned didn't even need extra material outside the original work to explain things because it's literally in the main story such as Shirou and Saber's romance which is a whole entire route itself. You're the one who keeps insisting that it's bad because castles, kings and knights and a 16 year old teenager don't mix together.

Fights and many concepts of the Fate-verse have internal logic that sometimes it works and sometimes it's just convenient. That is why i call some of those aspects "bullshit"
I know the logic behind it and some of those are pretty understandble and others are honestly awful.

Saber's love for Shirou is not realistic and doesn't sit well with me because we have an adult and a kid. It's written awfully and it cheaps Saber's entire character. The very base idea of making King Arthur a woman acting tsunderish or being toyed around by teens in bed is silly but i should take it completely seriously. And yes, Shirou's dumb actions and dumb ideals make fall in love in a very short amount of time a girl that actually lived as a woman and had a long life surrounded by people. The very forced nature of their relationship is what makes me hate it.
People can post text walls but if the core idea is forced, it is forced.

You just realized fights are determined by its circumstances. Congratulations. This is why you can't just powerscale Fate like your standard battle shounen and get away with it.

Yeah nah... you're so focused on the fact that Saber is older than she seems that you conveniently like to forget that she has already stopped maturing the very moment she took up the sword and vowed as a king to rule her people. That's literally the whole point of her character being a robot acting on her ideals of preservation.

Blah blah blah FSN is an eroge blah blah blah sex scenes you can cut out no problem yeah yeah whatever.

Saber herself went into isolation. Only Bedivere and Merlin can ever come close to the position Shirou attained in the Fate route.

Mar 19, 2020 1:22 AM

#180

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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You should realize you fucked up when you complain about a teenager doing heroic stuff when the majority of heroes that appear in this universe started doing heroic stuff in their preteen years.

Also ffs, nobody cares if the romance seems realistic to you. What romance seems realistic?

And btw Saber has the same dumb ideals Shirou has. We passed the point where you have stupid arguments and we now are at he point where we just pity you.

Mar 19, 2020 2:59 AM

#181

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Aug 2018

121

@ssjokg

I am not complaining about a teen doing heroics, i am complaining about a teen exceeding heroes with actual war or battle experience that are boosted by their status as servants. That should not be possible and it is possible only for extremely conveninent circumstances. Not even one, multiple!
You can't even begin to point out at the flaws of Fate with fans that all of them get defensive about it. Fine, there is no flaw in the story. It's a perfect story. Are you happier like that?

You can keep for yourself your pity. I enjoy the series and only because i belive some things are bad it doesn't mean my opinion is wrong.

The romance of Shirou and Sakura or Shirou and Rin is perfectly fine. Saber's romance sucks.

@Dull_Lull

As for your argument, maturity doesn't come from your brain developing but mostly by experiences and the years that passes. If you say Saber stopped to mature the moment she took the sword you are basically saying she will never be able to mature and never able to develop from her mindset.

Which is a contradiction because she does change her point of view later on. The forced nature of this is that it took Shirou and only Shirou to change her and not anyone else in the round table or anyone in her time and he did so in an extremely short amount of time.
It's a forced romance, no matter how you look at it and if it was actually written well it would be one thing but Nasu did not wrote their dynamics in a very organic way.

Mar 19, 2020 3:12 AM

#182

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GreenNet said:

@Dull_Lull

As for your argument, maturity doesn't come from your brain developing but mostly by experiences and the years that passes. If you say Saber stopped to mature the moment she took the sword you are basically saying she will never be able to mature and never able to develop from her mindset.

Which is a contradiction because she does change her point of view later on. The forced nature of this is that it took Shirou and only Shirou to change her and not anyone else in the round table or anyone in her time and he did so in an extremely short amount of time.
It's a forced romance, no matter how you look at it and if it was actually written well it would be one thing but Nasu did not wrote their dynamics in a very organic matter.

Servants are weaker versions of the actual heroes luv except the ones closer to modern times.

How in the hell does Shirou even exceed these heroes in a sense? He literally gets his ass beat each time. Cu plays around with him. Heracles smashed his internal organs. Archer let him win, etc. The only time he looked like he had an advantage was against Medusa who was severely weakened and Gilgamesh with his usual superiority complex. A lot of times he gets help from others like Medusa in HF or Saber in general.

Lit rally my point luv

If Saber was left to her own volition, she will never be able to mature from her ideals lol so hardly a contradiction.

Because it was too late before anyone questioned the king and her humanity. Did you miss a whole backstory of Saber where no one had the gall to go against her as long as she did her role as a king effectively, which she did by the way, because that's what Britain needed the most in that time of war, invaders and warring feudal lords? She's effectively stopped maturing and had no room to grow as long as Britain was in a quantum timelock headed for destruction.

Mar 19, 2020 4:02 AM

#183

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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GreenNet said:
@ssjokg

I am not complaining about a teen doing heroics, i am complaining about a teen exceeding heroes with actual war or battle experience that are boosted by their status as servants. That should not be possible and it is possible only for extremely conveninent circumstances. Not even one, multiple!
You can't even begin to point out at the flaws of Fate with fans that all of them get defensive about it. Fine, there is no flaw in the story. It's a perfect story. Are you happier like that?

You can keep for yourself your pity. I enjoy the series and only because i belive some things are bad it doesn't mean my opinion is wrong.

The romance of Shirou and Sakura or Shirou and Rin is perfectly fine. Saber's romance sucks.

@Dull_Lull

As for your argument, maturity doesn't come from your brain developing but mostly by experiences and the years that passes. If you say Saber stopped to mature the moment she took the sword you are basically saying she will never be able to mature and never able to develop from her mindset.

Which is a contradiction because she does change her point of view later on. The forced nature of this is that it took Shirou and only Shirou to change her and not anyone else in the round table or anyone in her time and he did so in an extremely short amount of time.
It's a forced romance, no matter how you look at it and if it was actually written well it would be one thing but Nasu did not wrote their dynamics in a very organic way.

Well lets look at each fight:

Honestly, this is the worst MC record when it comes to feats.

He and every other character wins or loses due to lore or character reasons. Archer Gil acts the same in every other work as well so it isnt CONVENIENT for Shirou and FSN as a whole.

Your opinion can be wrong when you claim that stuff that dont exist(like Shirou exceeding heroes)somehow exist.

You realize that older women can fall in love with younger people right?That Saber is older than he is a teenager isnt a valid argument. That she was a King inst an argument. History is filled with Kings falling in love or just fancy younger people.
Yes Nasu trying to force King Arthur as a woman was bad but the romance itself wasnt.

ssjokgMar 19, 2020 5:20 AM

Mar 19, 2020 4:11 AM

#184

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Aug 2018

121

@dull_lull

Look, we literally went super off-topic and we are talking about Fate Stay Night in a place where we should talk about FGO Babylonia.

At this point it's a matter of opinions (More or less, the execution was still lackluster). I played recently the novel and i stand on my points. I could continue but we are dragging the discussion in a place where we should not.

It's fine, you don't need to convince me. If you like it, you like it. To me it's not a good aspect of the novel and it's actually a flaw but what i like myself could be awful to you so there is no need to continue.

It's absurd that i need to bash something that i actually like just to explain my points about writing and flawed/silly concepts that are overflowing in the fate franchise.

Mar 19, 2020 4:20 AM

#185

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Aug 2018

121

ssjokg said:

GreenNet said:
@ssjokg

I am not complaining about a teen doing heroics, i am complaining about a teen exceeding heroes with actual war or battle experience that are boosted by their status as servants. That should not be possible and it is possible only for extremely conveninent circumstances. Not even one, multiple!
You can't even begin to point out at the flaws of Fate with fans that all of them get defensive about it. Fine, there is no flaw in the story. It's a perfect story. Are you happier like that?

You can keep for yourself your pity. I enjoy the series and only because i belive some things are bad it doesn't mean my opinion is wrong.

The romance of Shirou and Sakura or Shirou and Rin is perfectly fine. Saber's romance sucks.

@Dull_Lull

As for your argument, maturity doesn't come from your brain developing but mostly by experiences and the years that passes. If you say Saber stopped to mature the moment she took the sword you are basically saying she will never be able to mature and never able to develop from her mindset.

Which is a contradiction because she does change her point of view later on. The forced nature of this is that it took Shirou and only Shirou to change her and not anyone else in the round table or anyone in her time and he did so in an extremely short amount of time.
It's a forced romance, no matter how you look at it and if it was actually written well it would be one thing but Nasu did not wrote their dynamics in a very organic way.

Well lets look at each fight:

Honestly, this is the worst MC record when it comes to feats.

He and every other character wins or loses due to lore or character reasons. Archer Gil acts the same in every other work as well so it isnt CONVENIENT for Shirou and FSN as a whole.

Your opinion can be wrong when you claim that stuff that dont exist(like Shirou exceeding heroes)somehow exist.

You realize that older women can fall in love with younger people right?That Saber is older than he is a teenager isnt a valid argument. That she was a King inst an argument. History is filled with Kings falling in love or just fancy younger people.
Yes Nasu trying to force King Arthur as a woman was bad but the romance itself wasnt.

I genuinely belive i suck at explaining myself so i apologize for that. Exceeding is a huge word, let's say match them but that is another long argument.

My point was that the execution and the idea of Saber/Shirou romance was fundamentally flawed. I don't mind an older woman falling in love with a teen it's HOW it is executed and the forced nature of their relationship that makes it bad because basically every little contrived event in Arturia's life is there to have a virgin, inexperinced waifu bait that in less than a month changes completely mindset. A mindset that not only she kept for all of her life but for multiple holy grail wars after her "Death"

Only that this waifu bait should actually be a king that lead people and had a son.

But let's stop. I already said why above. I am free to continue the conversation in private if you so desire but we went off-topic a lot.

Mar 19, 2020 4:40 AM

#186

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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But she isnt a virgin or inexperienced.

Like the only one that even barely fits that description is

And why does it matter how long it took?
Kiritsugu changes mindset in a few minutes and he was pursuing his ideal for just as long as she did.

Also multiple grail wars?You mean the two she was in and they had a difference of a few minutes for her IF not seconds?
Also she changes in UBW as well and she doesnt develop feelings for Shirou thereSo you are again wrong.

She can be a king AND a waifu bait.
She lead her people and did ONLY THAT while still denying any kind of development for herself.
This is why she fails to see why she has to punish Lancelot and Guinevere.
This is why she fails to see why Tristan left.
This is why she fails to see why treating Mordred, her "son", as trash is a bad idea.
This is why she fails to see how much chivalry most of the trusted knights lack.
This is why she fails to see any rebellion happening.
She took everything on her shoulders, kept her distance from everyone and had no development as a person since she became a King. Experience as a king doesnt equal experience as a person.

Seeing Shirou changes that and she doesnt need for fall for him to see that. Exampl:UBW.

Mar 19, 2020 7:37 AM

#187

RedChrome

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Mar 2014

2122

Really love this episode, the only downturn is one more episode and it's finish

Mar 19, 2020 3:27 PM

#188

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Jul 2013

4690

Anyway, I finally saw the episode. There seems to be quite the divide regarding it.

Truth be told, I loved what they did to Tiamat here. I thought it was very poetic and added more to her character considering that she barely has thoughts even in the game.

What I didn't like though is the fact that Gil's speech, which was very epic and important by the way, was cut out in favor of giving Ritsuka the center of attention. He should have just remained as the cameraman that he truly is in FGO honestly.

Ereshkigal scene was beautifully-done and I loved that Ishtar was there.

King Hassan eating Lahmus lmao

Merlin finally shows his swordsmanship.

RIP Jaguarman

Mar 20, 2020 9:36 AM

#189

John_Smith_MAL

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Nov 2018

48

Guys Honestly I think I much more prefer Ritsuka to Shirou.

John_Smith_MALMar 20, 2020 9:41 AM

Mar 20, 2020 10:36 AM

#190

Read this if you want to start the Fate/ series but don't know from where.

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Aug 2009

20024

John_Smith_MAL said:
Guys Honestly I think I much more prefer Ritsuka to Shirou.

Well some people prefer it when they can self insert to a normal guy.

Mar 20, 2020 12:39 PM

#191

Swagernator

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Apr 2016

18619

John_Smith_MAL said:
Guys Honestly I think I much more prefer Ritsuka to Shirou.

Ritsuka is almost invisible, so it's easier to ignore like him.

Mar 20, 2020 1:14 PM

#192

Aure0lin

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Mar 2016

1958

ssjokg said:

John_Smith_MAL said:
Guys Honestly I think I much more prefer Ritsuka to Shirou.

Well some people prefer it when they can self insert to a normal guy.

r u saying that shirou is normal or guda is normal? Cuz shirou is a very bizarre person even tho he is far more complex as a character

"I like young-girl sexual creations, Lolicon is just one hobby of my many hobbies," he says.
I ask what his wife, standing nearby, thinks of his "hobby".
"She probably thinks no problem," he replies. "Because she loves young boys sexually interacting with each other."

Mar 20, 2020 1:27 PM

#193